Pocket Plane Group
Miscellany, Inc. => Ensign First Class Blather => Topic started by: jcompton on May 22, 2004, 12:13:58 AM
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Ziff-Davis's exclusivity period for my romance-in-gaming article has expired, so I've republished it on the PPG site.
"Fewer Smackdowns, More Cuddling." (http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=144&Itemid=2)
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Bioware says there's only 10% of women playing? Are they sure there aren't more of us? Catch 22! There is an allegedly pathetically low number of women interested in PC gaming-could it be (possibly because there are a pathetically low number of interesting non-tits-and-bums shoot-em-ups on the market) so they won't make games that are not boring tits-and-bums shoot-em-ups.
This we-need-to-make-a-squillion-dollars mentality needs to be trampled down and overthrown. Not all the games on the market are outrageously successful, but they're there. Look at games like Divine Divinity. Did it make gigabillions?(I have no idea.) But there's a sequel already.(So I assume it made some money.)
What is wrong with Bioware? BG1 and 2 were some of there most successful games, but they're dead, apparently, and the best they can do is NWN- not designed for the fans of said BG1 and 2.(The less said about that total betrayal of a loyal fan base by people who are beyond epithet, the better.)
There is only one solution. All male CPRG players will have to start pretending to be female. This is going to be a problem for people like Jester and possibly Greyfain, to name but a few, but a sacrifice is called for, for the greater good of gaming.
I'm sure that some of the 10% of women gamers (who may possibly be all represented on this site)will be happy to offer advice on how it is done.
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(who may possibly be all represented on this site)
Heheh, now that was both flattering AND funny!
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Bioware says there's only 10% of women playing? Are they sure there aren't more of us? Catch 22! There is an allegedly pathetically low number of women interested in PC gaming-could it be (possibly because there are a pathetically low number of interesting non-tits-and-bums shoot-em-ups on the market) so they won't make games that are not boring tits-and-bums shoot-em-ups.
I have a small insight in *why* exactly they are so mistaken.
Sad sad story: Domi really wanted to get ToB when it was released, since I was about to blow xp cap. So Domi went to the CompuCenter store in downtown Calgary and asked when ToB arrives. There were some delay, so Domi visited the store at least twice, before v. helpful emplyee suggested that Domi will be put on the list and the store would call Domi. So they recorded Domi's RL name (which is not quite so unisex as her alias) and in a couple of days Domi got a call on her answering machine. It started with:
Dear Mister....
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lol, Domi. I'd have to chalk that one up to laziness. Gaming industry leader(s) ignoring stats, otoh, is ..disappointing to say the least.
Sex sells, but in the main, the gaming industry has steered clear of the cuddlier aspects of sex and gone straight for the jiggle. "The jiggle has proved to sell much better," says Billy Pidgeon, senior analyst with Zelos Group. "But unsurprisingly, it's the new, original things that break out of the pack and become hit games."
Exsqeeze me? Is it just me or does he contradict himself? Is a "hit game" not the better seller?
I guess that's where the 10% comes in ::) (If they knew how offensive that shit is, they'd realize why it flops their game after the initial month of sales.
Who or what is the Zelos Group, anyway?
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All male CPRG players will have to start pretending to be female. This is going to be a problem for people like Jester and possibly Greyfain, to name but a few, but a sacrifice is called for, for the greater good of gaming.
I have ordered more games in drag than anyone else on this board. I might be at least 3 of the 10% of female players myself. :D I think the gamer stats come from the FPS side of gaming. Myst and everything involving anything else than mere slaughter must have completely different statisics.
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You frighten me sometimes, Jester. :P
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Sex sells, but in the main, the gaming industry has steered clear of the cuddlier aspects of sex and gone straight for the jiggle. "The jiggle has proved to sell much better," says Billy Pidgeon, senior analyst with Zelos Group. "But unsurprisingly, it's the new, original things that break out of the pack and become hit games."
Exsqeeze me? Is it just me or does he contradict himself? Is a "hit game" not the better seller?
What he's saying, in essence, is:
Take no chances and you'll sell 500,000 copies.
Take a chance, and you might sell 5,000,000 copies... or 500.
Who or what is the Zelos Group, anyway?
A relatively new analyst firm. Pidgeon has industry experience as well, I seem to recall he worked for Acclaim and one or two other game cos. I'm not at home, so I don't have my notes here.
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I'm not at home, so I don't have my notes here.
Notes?
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I'm not at home, so I don't have my notes here.
Notes?
Strangly enough, people take notes when they conduct interviews and do research for articles.
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There is only one solution. All male CPRG players will have to start pretending to be female. This is going to be a problem for people like Jester and possibly Greyfain, to name but a few, but a sacrifice is called for, for the greater good of gaming.
One question, will I need a dress?
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There is only one solution. All male CPRG players will have to start pretending to be female. This is going to be a problem for people like Jester and possibly Greyfain, to name but a few, but a sacrifice is called for, for the greater good of gaming.
One question, will I need a dress?
Yes and preferably garters too.
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Yeah because that's what women wear in 2004. ::)
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You frighten me sometimes, Jester. :P
I haven't changed my PPG picture yet to reflect that. Wait till you see the outfit until you are really scared. :D
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Oh oh
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So is Bioware's 10 percent, representative of the worldwide market, just the US market or a random survey taken around their office water cooler?!
Nice article, BTW, Jason. :) Somehow though, I think the industry wishes to remain blinkered.
Yeah because that's what women wear in 2004. ::)
;D
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So is Bioware's 10 percent, representative of the worldwide market, just the US market or a random survey taken around their office water cooler?!
Good Canadians that they are I can't imagine it was measuring the US market alone. :)
He generally characterized it as their internal numbers. Not sure exactly where they got them from.
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I'm beginning to think that "10%" is what is ascribed to groups they wish to ignore. >:(
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You may be right. ;) Plus I wonder how do they count couples who buy the game?
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There is only one solution. All male CPRG players will have to start pretending to be female. This is going to be a problem for people like Jester and possibly Greyfain, to name but a few, but a sacrifice is called for, for the greater good of gaming.
One question, will I need a dress?
See what I mean about advice being needed?All male CPRG players will have to start pretending to be female. This is going to be a problem for people like Jester and possibly Greyfain, to name but a few, but a sacrifice is called for, for the greater good of gaming.
I have ordered more games in drag than anyone else on this board. I might be at least 3 of the 10% of female players myself. :D
Though Jester is confident his disguise has never been seen through,I admit to some doubts on this score. ::) I would need to see some posts by Jesterette to be convinced. I will then change my post name to DoubtingThomas, which will take me a lot longer to type.
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A see through dress. You little perv. :p
I have to play females everyday to romance Edwin and Kelsey and Sola. :) Is there a male/female component to roleplaying BG2??
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A see through dress will defeat the whole purpose of disguise.
And really, Kelsey and Sola will believe anything you tell them . They think I am a strong and fearless fighter. Of course, I have never encountered any mice in Athkatla.
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There is only one solution. All male CPRG players will have to start pretending to be female. This is going to be a problem for people like Jester and possibly Greyfain, to name but a few, but a sacrifice is called for, for the greater good of gaming.
One question, will I need a dress?
Yes and preferably garters too.
Garters????? i'm 51 years old and i've NEVER owned garters!!! (yeah , yeah, im 51 and i still play computer games) i refuse to grow up LOL
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btw, great article
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There is only one solution. All male CPRG players will have to start pretending to be female. This is going to be a problem for people like Jester and possibly Greyfain, to name but a few, but a sacrifice is called for, for the greater good of gaming.
One question, will I need a dress?
Yes and preferably garters too.
Garters????? i'm 51 years old and i've NEVER owned garters!!! (yeah , yeah, im 51 and i still play computer games) i refuse to grow up LOL
The question asked by Lord Doomhammer was whether or not he should don a dress in order to fool the gaming industry into believing that more than 10% of players were woman. I think we would all agree that in 2004, a woman is not defined by a socially proscribed manner of dressing. It is an old fashioned idea that a woman would be defined by a certain type of clothing. My response of garters, was to indicate an extremely old fashioned notion of dressing, I was thinking of WWII and probably in the '50s. While you were born in the '50s, it would have been, obviously, inappropriate to dress a toddler in garters. Perhaps I should have added a smillie (limited though they are) to my post. In short, I was joking.
:)
Yeah because that's what women wear in 2004. ::)
If I offended anyone by my teasing "garter" remark, well, I apologize. Obviously, a poor and ill received joke.
PS: If I missed Melora's teasing, call me tired. As for Melora being 51 and playing computer games? Hey, nothing wrong with that. :)
PPS: BTW, I am female.
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The question asked by Lord Doomhammer was whether or not he should don a dress in order to fool the gaming industry into believing that more than 10% of players were woman.
1. He can wear a nappy if he likes. No-one can see him.(Makes sticky note to organise theft of Lord Doomhammer's web-cam.)
2. We wouldn't be fooling them. I think there ARE more than 10% of women involved in computer gaming. You are more proof! (Adds Regullus to list.)
3. All we need is to convince computer game producers is that they need to make INTERESTING games. To do this we need to convince them that CRPG players are intelligent. Therefore I suggested that male players pretend to be female.(Runs from howling misogynistic mob that immediately gathers on web-site.)
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There is only one solution. All male CPRG players will have to start pretending to be female. This is going to be a problem for people like Jester and possibly Greyfain, to name but a few, but a sacrifice is called for, for the greater good of gaming.
One question, will I need a dress?
Yes and preferably garters too.
Garters????? i'm 51 years old and i've NEVER owned garters!!! (yeah , yeah, im 51 and i still play computer games) i refuse to grow up LOL
The question asked by Lord Doomhammer was whether or not he should don a dress in order to fool the gaming industry into believing that more than 10% of players were woman. I think we would all agree that in 2004, a woman is not defined by a socially proscribed manner of dressing. It is an old fashioned idea that a woman would be defined by a certain type of clothing. My response of garters, was to indicate an extremely old fashioned notion of dressing, I was thinking of WWII and probably in the '50s. While you were born in the '50s, it would have been, obviously, inappropriate to dress a toddler in garters. Perhaps I should have added a smillie (limited though they are) to my post. In short, I was joking.
:)
Yeah because that's what women wear in 2004. ::)
If I offended anyone by my teasing "garter" remark, well, I apologize. Obviously, a poor and ill received joke.
PS: If I missed Melora's teasing, call me tired. As for Melora being 51 and playing computer games? Hey, nothing wrong with that. :)
PPS: BTW, I am female.
its okay, i was joking too..... sometimes its hard to tell online when you cant hear the tone of voice or see the posters facial expression. i wasnt at all offended by your "garter" comment. i thought it was pretty funny, and clever. ;D
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Perhaps the marked lack of garters is what's fooling the marketing groups.
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Perhaps the marked lack of garters is what's fooling the marketing groups.
Considering that most RPGs are set in a medeival type setting, maybe what's lacking is chainmail bikinis among customers?
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Considering that most RPGs are set in a medeival type setting, maybe what's lacking is chainmail bikinis among customers?
That would, without a doubt, be included in the employees' questionnaires about customers.
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Perhaps the marked lack of garters is what's fooling the marketing groups.
Considering that most RPGs are set in a medeival type setting, maybe what's lacking is chainmail bikinis among customers?
Sounds like wishful thinking! :)
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(Makes sticky note to organise theft of Lord Doomhammer's web-cam.)
heh. i dont have a webcam, I figured exposing my face to the public would constitute a crime against humanity.
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I have just read an article in PC Powerplay (100th edition) that claims that middle-aged women are the most common users of on-line games. PC Powerplay goes on to claim we will see games with immersive worlds that explore social and emotional aspects of story-telling.
Good work, boys! Although with Greyfain STILL talking about chainmail bikinis( She hands him instructional booklet entitled How To Pretend To Be a Woman and he notes it specifically says women hate chainmail bikinis because they're scratchy) I was fearful it would take a LONG time. This is beyond my wildest expectations. :D
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Chainmail bikinis eh. Go blame Luis Rojo and all the artwork guys for perpetuating this myth.
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Oh, yes, the famous "she fights nacked" style. :D That looked *especially* lovely in the IWD art... right when they were crossing all these snowy planes...
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Oh, yes, the famous "she fights nacked" style. :D That looked *especially* lovely in the IWD art... right when they were crossing all these snowy planes...
Womens' skin is made of a super-strong material that turns away sword points and feels no cold, after all. :D
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Is that why you need all those moisturizers and stuff I see on TV?
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Whatever works...and while I would think it rather unfeasible to "fight nacked"...a somewhat scantily clad female is always good for the eyes:-)
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Whatever works...and while I would think it rather unfeasible to "fight nacked"...a somewhat scantily clad female is always good for the eyes:-)
um,,, wouldnt that depend on the female's "endowments" ? and besides, i could go for a bare chested male any day. equal opportunity, right?
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Whatever works...and while I would think it rather unfeasible to "fight nacked"...a somewhat scantily clad female is always good for the eyes:-)
um,,, wouldnt that depend on the female's "endowments" ? and besides, i could go for a bare chested male any day. equal opportunity, right?
I'm all for the equal opportunity.
However, clothing that's so ludicrously incompatible with what people would really wear does not "work". It fails. It shouts "YOU ARE PLAYING A GAME AND WE ARE PANDERING". Blech.
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I'd like to point out, totally off topic, that not all men must die. Not all of us will get this, btw. Much more of an inside joke than anythin else.
For instance, Selmy (as old and perfect a candidate to die as he is) will never really be dead. Even if he's killed in a brutal, nasty fashion, he's super famous and kicks butt. Though, he only kicks butt b/c he serves Daenerys. Who kicks butt b/c she's got da dragons. Which kick butt b/c..... er..... does that really need an explanation?
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Back to the actual topic....
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Personally, I think that computer games HAVE gotten out of control in their blatant, pointless, masculinity. For any otaku out there who have seen Escaflowne (the real version, not the trash the stupid American censors played n TV)- was it not great b/c it was shojo? Was it not one of the best anime ever created simply for the reason that it had character development, emotional maturing AND testosterone-laden battles? IMHO, the gaming industry has a lot to learn from Escaflowne:
1.) Get Yoko Kano to compose all the music for every game anywhere. Period.
2.) Make sure that the plot of the game not only makes sense but is deeply developed, somewhat depressing and very powerful.
3.) The characters get better the more outrageously they deviate from the social norm. Though Alan is obviously the "Noble Knight" dude, he's really abusive in subtle ways and did mess around with a girl he wasn't supposed to.
4.) Put Folken in everything. He's the number 1 coolest character on earth. This rule does totally abandon rule #3, but Folken is just too cool to emit from anything. Especially if you've seen the series the whole way through.
There's probably a lot more than can be learned from Escaflowne by the gaming industry, but it's 10:20 on a schoolnight and my parents are yelling at me. 'Sides: I got a final to study for on Thursday. Ar!
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I'm gonna have to agree that women are too... unnatural... in many ways, in video & computer games. For one, I think it actually gives gamer guys a bad name, and a lack of credit on behalf of the companies who make games. I'm sure lots of guys don't mind a little sexiness in their games, but aren't you a bit insulted when a company makes an absolutely horrific game, but adds a bunch of nubile females and then expects you to buy it and like it simply because it's full of scantily clad women? I know I would be if I were pigeonholed into a similar category. Another thing is the aforementioned lack of equality. It wouldn't be *quite* so annoying to be playing games with busty, barely clothed women everywhere if there weren't men standing next to them with every inch of their bodies covered. This inequality is so blatant that it's annoying in and of itself. Now, I also know that there are genuinely good games out there that do use women as a selling point but it's an obstacle to my enjoyment of a game when it's portrayals of women are so unrealistic.
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(http://www.icelus.net/moinesse/Warrior.gif)
I think with all these comments on Half dressed women fighter, I'm glad I didn't finish this one. Xena the Warrior Princess, BG style.
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It's just anoter bastard child of sexist America, corporate America and the pervasive, damaging, uncontrolled capitalism our moral beliefs have been sold to. To quote the great David Orr, "Communism failed as an aesthetic morality. Capitalism failed because it destroys morality altogether." And it does. Unalduterated capitalism can be one of the single most damaging things a society can suffer from. Companies have to do anything for money, simply because capitalism works like that. Remember, "Communism produced too little at too great a cost. Capitalism produced too much, shared too little and comes at too great a cost to our children and grandchildren." It doesn't help that Bush has given us a Trillion-dollar-deficit to work off; for a powerful hail to this, I recommend http://www.moveon.org
watch the winner's movie.
To recap, capitalism is bad because it makes companies think they have to go to any extent to sell their games, even if it means destroying the beauty of the human body through its exploitation.
P.S. Valar dohaeris
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Actually your wonderful work with the Bams, well if they are bams, should definitely stay, but the general notion is funny. I always thought that very often the covered parts of an amazon ostensibly keep off blows, but really point at the uncovered parts. :D
Edit: Corrected the last sentence to prevent Curst from slipping into grammar hell.
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What don't people know that most video game programers don't have girl friends?
Though seriously I do agree that its sad that most "female" characters in video games, look way to "top" heavey. And that two strips of cloth somehow class as clothing regardless of the fact that you could be playing volleyball in it, or fighting off legions of evil arms. Somehow I don't think they would be that good for protecting anything.
Like get real, just because people now like showing their navel dosn't mean that people want be showing it when they could get an arrow or spear through it.
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To recap, capitalism is bad because it makes companies think they have to go to any extent to sell their games, even if it means destroying the beauty of the human body through its exploitation.
But it's not destroying the beauty of it... more, uh, appreciating it.
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I'd like to point out, totally off topic, that not all men must die. Not all of us will get this, btw. Much more of an inside joke than anythin else.
Yes, whights for instance... But he follows this simple rule with amazing persistency so far :)
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To recap, capitalism is bad because it makes companies think they have to go to any extent to sell their games, even if it means destroying the beauty of the human body through its exploitation.
But it's not destroying the beauty of it... more, uh, appreciating it.
Most of the "female" bodies in games don't bear more than a passing resemblance to the bodies of real women. If they did, we would all have serious back problems and never eat. It's not "appreciating" the human body when it's distorting it into weird proportions and pretending that the body needs neither food nor clothing to survive. It's not "appreciating" the beauty of women when the only thing that matters about those graphical constructions is their impossible proportions. It's insulting to real women to say this is what women are or should be, and it's insulting to men to imply that they prefer silicone to flesh, let alone intelligence.
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Nor protection against weapons.
That attitude leads to hilareous things like this - the following is the quote from a mod; it is a description of PLATE MAIL (!)
Despite being very protective, this armour does little to detract from NPC's sexuality and actually proves to be quite provocative. That could be handy in a combat situation to distract enemy's attention.
;D
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As much as I dislike the chainmail bikini, I think it should be pointed out that quite a lot of historical armours have a rahter generously-sized metal codpiece. I don't know if this was meant to distract the opponents or to boost the confidence of the wearer, but still...
I couldn't find any good examples with a quick search, so this (http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/displayimage.php?album=12&pos=134) will have to do.
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Neriana got to the point. That's just one of the pervasive (and perverse) problems of capitalistic America: they treat us like trash. It is a scientifically proven point that if a child is told that he/she is "stupid" or "a liar", he or she will turn out being so. The same is true for opposite remarks, as long as they are backed up with intellectual stimulation, love and kindness. Corporations teamed up with the media and the government to convince all Americans that they were useless, stupid trash-mongers. I hate to say it, but Bush didn't start that. The government has been playing we citizens as pawns for at least a good hundred years (I believe it started around the birth of the "two party system", but others might disagree).
Regardless, I think that some of the exploitation of the "human" body can be derived from the fact that sex and the human body is a taboo subject in the US. That is, of course, derived from new-Christianity, which rejects love as the defining element of humanity and embraces violence (the crucifix is their icon?! Who came up with that idea!) as a much more humane thing. European Christianity sux0rz, because it brainwashes us to believe that the natural human body is bad, unless it is split open in a sacrifice for God (the Crusades?). Personally, I think that just about any Asian religion is far better, even EOC (eastern orthodox christianity). I am a strong Buddhist supporter, though not a Buddhist myself, because it rejects violence for violence's sake (and, in the perfect cases, altogether) and embraces humanity for what it really is: part of this planet. See Philip Glass movies, Anima mundi in particular, for an example of what I'm talking about. Our planet is truly a living thing, we are part of it, and we are what we are.
Hinduism also provides a good example of non-violence, at least in theory, and provides a better example of Asia's (India's, in this case) acceptance of the natural human body. Works of physical art (drawings, painting, but primarily sculptings in this case) frequently depict the actual human body, not the idealized human body, in its natural state. Hindu art work also depicts sex as being a perfectly fine and good thing, which resulted in India being far more accepting of the human body, as it is the human body that is the instrument of human sex.
I am, of course, aware of the severe economic problems in India, but that can be contributed to the bad parts of Hinduism (the caste system). And to think it could've all been avoided if the Indians had only listened to Gandhi in the first place...
@ Domi- I've concluded that Ben Stark is that one wight who helped out our Craven Sam. Is this correct? I can't remember them saying that out right, but it is pretty strongly implied. Do you have any idea how that happened (i.e. how he kept his mind and isn't just a walking corpse)? Ar.
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That is, of course, derived from new-Christianity, which rejects love as the defining element of humanity and embraces violence (the crucifix is their icon?! Who came up with that idea!) as a much more humane thing. European Christianity sux0rz, because it brainwashes us to believe that the natural human body is bad, unless it is split open in a sacrifice for God (the Crusades?).
What in the heck are you on. I would really be appreciative if you would keep you opinions of my Religon to yourself. This is NOT a board to bash peoples religions.
A) The Crusades were a grave mistake and have NO actuall backing in the Bible. Like many wars throughout histroy, INCLUDE Asian religions they almost ALL have been misused or used and an excuss for violence against another religon.
B. The entire premise of the Cross is that ONE person died so that ALL can live.
C. I'm not going to even start to list all the versus that Christianity is base on love.
I believe that the Human body is special as it was designed by God and that it is to my continual annoyance as a person who likes playing video games that most programmers have such a narrow minded approach and tend to focus in on the body parts that are associated with sex or sexual acts.
I'm not here to attack anyones else religon as I just like to read and talk about the subjects everyone else does.
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If this degenerates any further into a religious debate, I'm going to plunder your riches, burn your homes, kidnap your women, and grind your bones into dust. Clear?
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If this degenerates any further into a religious debate, I'm going to plunder your riches, burn your homes, kidnap your women, and grind your bones into dust. Clear?
Wouldn't it just be simpler to choke hold them?
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JPS: True, but they got to wear more than just a codpiece. Armor fashions were often quite strange in general from following clothing fashions.
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This post has been deleted by Ghreyfain.
Guy, did you not think I was serious about no religious talk? There's enough controversy around this place as it is, and we don't need holy wars, too. Let's just say that everyone has an open mind and all religions are equal and be done with it.
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quite a lot of historical armours have a rahter generously-sized metal codpiece. I don't know if this was meant to distract the opponents or to boost the confidence of the wearer, but still...
i suspect it was the latter.
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To clarify - the said quote was relevant to a female NPC. My understanding is that giant codpieces were for *display* armour; it is my understanding that any other type of armour avoided any sort of things that could be hooked at by say a flail and throw the wearer on the ground openning him for an attack. Also it is my understanding is that seams always were considered the weakest point - and an aim for an opponents weapon - of any armour so making them to accomodate certain female curvy areas in the vital breast region would endanger her and put her at a disadvantage. Providing that heavy padding is necessary to wear any armour - including chain (again to the extent of my very poor knowledge) - I would guess that for her own safety the female would be "flattened" with padding and then fitted to the plate. Chain-mail is not a cashmir sweater either... lol.
Here is a link to a more realistic picture of a female in a body plate. As one can see, the curves are well... not there.
http://amoka.net/eng/gal/asoiaf/bri.JPG
P.S: From what I have heard it is almost an agreement that it was indeed, Benjen Stark on the elk. But we will have to wait for another year or so untill the next book... alas.
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To clarify - the said quote was relevant to a female NPC. My understanding is that giant codpieces were for *display* armour; it is my understanding that any other type of armour avoided any sort of things that could be hooked at by say a flail and throw the wearer on the ground openning him for an attack. Also it is my understanding is that seams always were considered the weakest point - and an aim for an opponents weapon - of any armour so making them to accomodate certain female curvy areas in the vital breast region would endanger her and put her at a disadvantage. Providing that heavy padding is necessary to wear any armour - including chain (again to the extent of my very poor knowledge) - I would guess that for her own safety the female would be "flattened" with padding and then fitted to the plate. Chain-mail is not a cashmir sweater either... lol.
As far as my somewhat limited knowledge goes; yes, you're right. Any ponts and angles on a suit of armour should be there to deflect attacks from the wearer (the front ridge on your picture and on lots of historical armours (http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/displayimage.php?album=12&pos=55) is there to make it harder for an attacker to strike the armour at a 90 degree angle, which is pretty much the only way to penetrate that kind of armour with a sword or spear. But I digress, and technically this is no more relevant to the discussion than the post that was already deleted...), so the form-hugging suit of armour would be very dangerous (not to mention very uncomfortable).
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Well, to get it back to the topic, a clever romance writer can use this to avoid in his/her texts playfully slapping an armored butt or selecting a picture for a paladin who is dressed in her faith alone or telling that armour detracts little from sexula appeal... Looking into your lover's wonderful eyes or bitting his earlobe is also better achieved after removing the full-faced helmet or even a halfhelm with a nosegurad etc... *Giggles* :)
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All of those things are an incredible pain in the neck to try to code for. It just so happens that you're always flirting when somebody's cleaning their helmet or stretching or whatever. :)
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Oh, does not need to be coded... but inclusions in the texts maybe quite alluring :)
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Or you can do it the easy way and only make mods where the romanceable NPCs are wizards or sorcerers :P
(yes, I know that "make mods" and "easy" usually don't appear in the same sentence without at least one negation...)
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Kind of coming full circle here but I actually once read an article on the history of the codpiece. (I had seen the word and couldn't remember what it was so I looked it up) It actually started out as a practical accessory since they didn't have boxer shorts and what not. It serves a similar purpose as boxers, but they later got more prominent for "fashion" reasons.
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I'm afraid full-circle would require actually referencing the article and/or premise. :)
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Or you can do it the easy way and only make mods where the romanceable NPCs are wizards or sorcerers :P
(yes, I know that "make mods" and "easy" usually don't appear in the same sentence without at least one negation...)
Alas, for an in-game romance (yay! I made it on topic!) I have a preference of warrior type... and I am guessing that by now pretty much everyone is aware of what particular class Domi goes starry-eyed about ;D ;D ;D
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I'm afraid full-circle would require actually referencing the article and/or premise. :)
Hey I said "kind of." ;)
I don't think romance in gaming is really good or bad. It's not necessary if the game has a solid enough story and good gameplay IMO. I think a good game is a good game. But I also believe it's unnessary for games to have the overt sexuality they sometimes(often?) have. In fact, i'd almost prefer a game with no romantic or sexual content. While I think romance content does substantially help flesh out a role playing game and serves as a great bonus as long as other RP aspects are well-formed, I'm not going to buy a game because of it. Ultimately, I don't play games for their romance, love, or titilation content, I play them for fun!
And for anyone whose interested here's a more informative history of the codpiece: http://www.r3.org/life/articles/codpiece.html (And the least graphic I could find!)
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Yeah I can agree their but for me having the Romance option has always add replayability, and it ushually deepens story development. Wether you like the Final Fantasy series or not one of the reasons its so crazed is that is has always had romance plots in the story line. (yeah their still just liniar stories and FFX-2 does not count, cause it was just a bad excuse to draw 3 girl chars in scantily clad clothing)
Wether they add romance or not, I would like them to cut down on all the exploiting they do. You can have an attractive female character without needing to give them unrealistic porpotions. To me seeing some of those characters that they create now sicken me more than attract me.
To be honest, Romance in a game may not be a buying feature for me, but games that offer features like that such as Baldur Gate II, Quest for Glory V Dragon Fire, Robin Hood Conquest for the Longbow is going to make me come back and play the game more.
Still a good and well done romance can add depth to a game. (Though games like Grand Turismo that subsqently lack a plot all together I don't it would improve.), If the romance plot was well done in alot of games it would certinaly add more depth to any game comming out.
Romance does NOT need to be a flash of almost porgnographic flicks to catch some 13 year old males attention, but a well thought out and crafted sub plot of the story line inside the game.
(edit: Retype a line to make it make a little more sense)
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It is a scientifically proven point that if a child is told that he/she is "stupid" or "a liar", he or she will turn out being so. The same is true for opposite remarks, as long as they are backed up with intellectual stimulation, love and kindness.
Regardless, I think that some of the exploitation of the "human" body can be derived from the fact that sex and the human body is a taboo subject in the US.
Comment on Quote 1: The interesting thing about human nature is not why we fail but why we succeed. Many very worthwhile people have come from terrible circumstances yet succeed in being viable, successful and humane people, and I do not mean only material or social success. Also, there was a study done that showed that meritless compliments did not make children succeed academically
Comment on Quote 2: Sounds good but I think you may be overthinking the subject. Plenty of sex for sex's sake in the US. I think a far better comment is the search for physical "perfection" that does seem peculiarly but not exclusively, symptomatic of the USA culturally. I blame marketers. I think marketers are the boil on humanity's backside.
But on to what I really wanted to say:
About a week ago a friend of mine saw the name Anomen and pointed out that it was a word scramble for Noname. At first I just wondered if it was intentional or accidental, then I realized that Delryn could be re-arranged to Nerdly.
Sir Noname Nerdly - Was it intentional and if so what does it indicate? That the writers hated Anomen or is it a slap in the face of female gamers? ???
This is so inane that I hesistate to hit the post button.
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On the contrary, it's one of those jaw-dropping, "That CAN'T be accidental!" revelations.
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Coincidence???!!! Accidental???!!! The classic answer when a conspiracy stands reavealed in all its baseness!
Actually, I thought I would get one of two answers:
1) Get a life.
2) Yeah, that is has already been pointed out 50 billion times.
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About a week ago a friend of mine saw the name Anomen and pointed out that it was a word scramble for Noname. At first I just wondered if it was intentional or accidental, then I realized that Delryn could be re-arranged to Nerdly.
Sir Noname Nerdly - Was it intentional and if so what does it indicate? That the writers hated Anomen or is it a slap in the face of female gamers? ???
That is SO scary.
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But on to what I really wanted to say:
About a week ago a friend of mine saw the name Anomen and pointed out that it was a word scramble for Noname. At first I just wondered if it was intentional or accidental, then I realized that Delryn could be re-arranged to Nerdly.
Sir Noname Nerdly - Was it intentional and if so what does it indicate? That the writers hated Anomen or is it a slap in the face of female gamers? ???
This is so inane that I hesistate to hit the post button.
Neat... good job revealing this! Now, I think it will take only shortwhile for someone to include it in a banter :)
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Edited by Moderator.
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Oo! Oo! I wanna try too!
Deleted by a moderator.
Fun :)
Back on topic....
@ Regullus- you're right, there are some success stories like that. However, I like to call that the "that cripple can fly" effect, in that people remember only the amazing stories, and not the everyday, boring, monotone, depressing story of real life. Though there are some who have been hit, cursed at, put down, bullied, abused and generally messed with who turned out alright, many, many, many, many other have not. I cannot underestimate the number of people out there who act the way they do simply because that was the way they were raised. I will not dispute the fact that such abuses can lead to a person being very proactive in the fight for justice in the world, but I will point out that such a person is one in a million. Literally.
On a lighter note:
Nope, I never realized that Anomen was an anagram for Noname. Seriously ;D. Good work: it would have taken me an anagramer to figure that out, and that'd be cheating. Personally, I think it was the writers making fun of Anomen: he's such an annoying character, why not make his name an anagram for Noname Nerdly. Makes sense to me ;).
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Actually I must say that I don't like him, but he must really be a well rounded character in terms of roleplaying, if he can antagonize people that much. Anomen would be a misnomer then, because he made himself quite a name in the romantic arena, before Mr. K. picked up the gauntlet.
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Actually I must say that I don't like him, but he must really be a well rounded character in terms of roleplaying, if he can antagonize people that much.
This is still horrible logic. It's easy to antagonize people, and it certainly doesn't require being well-rounded.
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I think he is plain annoying, but that is what a lot of real life people are too. By well rounded I mean I can clearly smell his attitude from afar. He never disappoints me to be annoying in every single turn. Allthough I will draw a lot of nasty words my way, I find many other NPCs, like Keldorn, Nalia and Cernd, lukewarm at best. I neither love them nor loathe them. For NPCs it is not only about stats, it is about personality for me and that is where my well rounded argument came from. Edwin is a real p***k too, but he is just damn good at what he is doing. So it is a tradeoff.
... and why 'still'?
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Because the "Anomen is a well-written character because people wouldn't hate him if he wasn't" argument has come up before...although it's looking like you don't mean he's well-written.
If he's annoying at every turn, that would seem to make him one-note, the exact opposite of well-rounded.
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he is wel written to hate him :D
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One of the worst things about Anomen is that he is not written consistently. He's annoying for many reasons, and one of them is that he was lazily written.
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One of the worst things about Anomen is that he is not written consistently. He's annoying for many reasons, and one of them is that he was lazily written.
I disagree. I feel he is written consistently... consistently bipolar and with serious psychological issues.
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that's what i said he is wel written to hate him :D
aerie is annoying to about her wings and such bah can't she just see that my char doesn't wanna hear her pathetic stories? maybe my pc should end her whining ^^
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Ok, I see your point now. Well rounded was wrong in that respect. Let's just say I think he is edgy, although I have yet to take a NI tour to see all his banters. Is he part of the banter pack btw?
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Anomen is a bit like one of my mates. He's okay one day, then the next he's a bastard. People are like that, doesn't mean he's badly or inconsistently written.
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uhm explain to me when is anomen ok?
he;s an arogant ass and always will be
like pst says
NOTHING CAN CHANGE THE NATURE OF A MAN :D
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@nurgles_herald - I think it probably depends on what is meant by the wrecked human. How consistently traumatized is the person and was there no positive experience in their lives. An extreme example would be serial killers, and then you would have to wonder how much of their psyche is influenced by the external and how much is influenced by organic factors. In short, we probably won't solve it posting here. I still think the fundamental question is not why someone becomes an extremely dysfunctional person when hit with dire circumstances but why so many don't. When I was writing my post I just could not think of the word anagram. Thanks for supplying the proper word.
@Da_venom - pst was all about how the nature of man may be changed. ;D (As well you know.)
Warning: Returning on topic.
Back briefly, to the Noname Nerdly anagram. My friend also said that the reason she noticed the name was because there is a horror movie and the protagonist's name was Anomen. She could not remember the title of the movie. Does anyone know of this movie?
I wrote a couple of fanfiction pieces or as I like to think of them optimistically "paragaraphs with plots" and I re-read much of Anomen's dialogue in order, hopefully, to portray Anomen recoginizably. IMO, what really makes A. so obnoxious, with a couple of exceptions, for example the Mazzy and Keldorn banters, is the soundset catch phrases. He sounds obnoxious. When he is in romance, he improves and by TOB much of what he says to the pc is fine, and the Tree of Life dialogue is pretty romantic.
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Is he part of the banter pack btw?
Yes, all the Bio NPCs, plus Lilarcor, are represented in the banter pack.
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Anomen is also an anagram of 'one man'.
Delryn is also an anagram of ... dry len.
All right, the writers hated him! :'(
The games with romance in them are the ones I remember most. Final Fantasy 7 was very close to my heart because I loved the Tifa/Cloud misunderstood romance (though I'm not going to wax poetically about it just yet, JC ;D). It probably isn't even the romance that's the key issue, but the character development required to present a believeable romance (hence my extreme dislike for the Aeris/Cloud connection).
Anomen is saved from being a total prick by his romance. As Regullus mentioned, his romance story arc shows a different side to him. Having played as a male PC, I completely understand what a jerk he is... as a female PC, I think he's lovely, if emotionally dependent.
Going back to the article, I think The Sims is so popular not because of the romance or even relationship building (though that does play a part), but because it's so open to modification. More importantly, it's easily skinnable and thus accessible to the wider female audience that is afraid of coding. Having said that, I do play The Sims more to wreak havoc upon the characters than to actually build steady relationships (insert evil laugh here ;D).
In fact, the Sims is almost an argument against romance or character development being an important component of games, seeing as each Sim doesn't have more than a cursory personality (as they are represented by little bars), and each relationship is based on mechanical "Kiss"/"Hug"/"Cuddle" interactions. Maybe that's where its strength lies - the Sim has so little character that it's easier to see yourself as the Sim or to enforce a personality upon it. Try doing that to Jaheira, and she'd smack you one.
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anomen is sensitive and emotional?
eh? never heard of that before :D
he's just an arogant bastard hehe
oh well i gues female characters should have a chance of romancing more :d
but unfortunatly anomen is the only one i believe
think i heard a story you could also keldorn is that true?
hehe seems someone has to find out ^^ he's waaaaay better then anomen, but then again he's also retard ^^
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Anomen is saved from being a total prick by his romance. As Regullus mentioned, his romance story arc shows a different side to him. Having played as a male PC, I completely understand what a jerk he is... as a female PC, I think he's lovely, if emotionally dependent.
Sorry, I have to disagree. When I didn't romance Anomen, I thought he was just sort of a useless, pompous jerk. When I attempted to romance him, I found he was a complete waste of space, as well as being a thorough ass. "Lovely if emotionally dependent" doesn't work for me, nor does, well, anything Anomen says or does. At all. Literally every word out of his mouth makes me hate him more.
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Sir Noname Nerdly - Was it intentional and if so what does it indicate? That the writers hated Anomen or is it a slap in the face of female gamers? ???
I think that you are right on both counts. It feels to me that the writers had no affection for the character. Also, I think they cynically believed that a handsome man with emotional issues would have a strong appeal for women. Anyone who has read my fanfic knows that I love the character, but he is hardly a self-actualized individual. If I met someone like that in real life, I'd run the other way, handsome or not.
In my fanfic I've tried to create two women who could believably fall in love with him. My generous-hearted ranger wants to help him, not exactly a solid basis for a relationship, but since he actually does change, it may work. For my bard it is primarily a physical attraction, at least at first, and in fact he is a better person than she is, believe it or not. Also, her previous boyfriend was Edwin, so, at least in my mind, she has traded up. :D
Back to topic, romance in gaming: I debated the topic of romance in mysteries with my mystery writing group. (It’s not a secret group; we write mysteries. ;) www.pghsinc.org) Some of them like it, but many don’t want any romance. It seemed divided on gender and age lines. I feel that it adds flavor. I don’t want to read a book only about the romance, but a little romance in addition to the main plot adds depth and color.
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sure romance should be in games
gives something else to do then just ask for quesy and hack&slash also makes the game a bit more realistic.
maybe there should be romance related quest just for the person you want to romance ^^
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Sorry, I have to disagree. When I didn't romance Anomen, I thought he was just sort of a useless, pompous jerk. When I attempted to romance him, I found he was a complete waste of space, as well as being a thorough ass. "Lovely if emotionally dependent" doesn't work for me, nor does, well, anything Anomen says or does. At all. Literally every word out of his mouth makes me hate him more.
I agree, it was the Anomen romance that initially made me to dislike the character. Four years later, and I am still in disbelieve that this supposedly knightly character was quite happy to bed the PC who said that she does not love him, but does not mind a night together. When the need to romance him due to his exclusivety passed, I started taking pity on the guy, because he was bullied quite autrociously by every other NPC. Note to game developpers: it is not a good idea to select a man who is so unanimously picked upon for a female romantic option.
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I think that you are right on both counts. It feels to me that the writers had no affection for the character. Also, I think they cynically believed that a handsome man with emotional issues would have a strong appeal for women. Anyone who has read my fanfic knows that I love the character, but he is hardly a self-actualized individual. If I met someone like that in real life, I'd run the other way, handsome or not.
Back to topic, romance in gaming. I feel that it adds flavor. I don’t want to read a book only about the romance, but a little romance in addition to the main plot adds depth and color.
Yay! Validation. I agree with you that it felt like the writers said, "Oh females will love Anomen because he's a big, stwong(intentional sp. error) knight, can go with any alignment choice and yet so vulnerable." How classic. Then our little bard is the second choice had they deigned to include a second choice? In all fairness the ladies are not much better. Each is a stereotype. The sweet young thang that needs to protected and does not really know her own mind. The hot tamale with a hint of danger and a dash of vulnerability? Then finally, the strong which seems to equate with nagging, and to indicate her vulnerability, she is indecisive. A ballbuster with vulnerability. :-* Whatever. Thank the Gods there were a group of flirt pack modders! They definitely brought heart and heat to the romance thing. :)
Back to romance in games? Well, I think they are nice but I agree it is not a necessary element to a good game, movie or story. Creating a bond with secondary characters is a phenomenal addition to stories. In games, the character I was most deeply attached to was Dogmeat from Fallout 1. I almost cried when I could not complete the game with Dogmeat. No romance there but after the tenth re-load when finally accepted that we were not going end the game together, I was traumatized. If anyone finished the game with Dogmeat? Don't tell me. :'(
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In games, the character I was most deeply attached to was Dogmeat from Fallout 1. I almost cried when I could not complete the game with Dogmeat. No romance there but after the tenth re-load when finally accepted that we were not going end the game together, I was traumatized. If anyone finished the game with Dogmeat? Don't tell me. :'(
I'm not saying I did this, but, if you ever play again, there are apocryphal stories that say you can use the force fields to pen him in out of harm's way.
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Now I'm feeling embarrassed that I do like the stereotype, at least in the gaming world. Real life is a completely different story... but then again, real people are not controlled by IF THEN statements or limited by coding/acting/writing constraints.
Domi makes a good point (in my case anyway)... I would not be so inclined to defend Anomen if everyone else was not quite so inclined to hate him. I do tend to have a soft spot for underdogs. But that's just the contrary muscle kicking in.
Going back on topic, I do agree with Perdita (as usual :)) - romance adds flavour. In my case it's a sort of misty-eyed and sentimental flavour (mmm, look out for that at your nearest gelatissimo), but other elements, such as well written comedy or drama can also make a game memorable. So the key is good characterisation, I guess. Plus a dose of customisable elements, such as... hmm... mods for example. ;)
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I'm not saying I did this, but, if you ever play again, there are apocryphal stories that say you can use the force fields to pen him in out of harm's way.
:'( :'( : :'( ...I never played the game again after the loss of Dogmeat. Went directly to Fallout II and when Dogmeat appeared in one of the random sections...I left him there, unable and unwilling to,again, take the risk of failure, my failure, in protecting Dogmeat.
Now I'm feeling embarrassed that I do like the stereotype, at least in the gaming world.
Domi makes a good point (in my case anyway)... I would not be so inclined to defend Anomen if everyone else was not quite so inclined to hate him. I do tend to have a soft spot for underdogs. But that's just the contrary muscle kicking in.
Going back on topic, I do agree with Perdita (as usual :)) - romance adds flavour. In my case it's a sort of misty-eyed and sentimental flavour (mmm, look out for that at your nearest gelatissimo), but other elements, such as well written comedy or drama can also make a game memorable. So the key is good characterisation, I guess. Plus a dose of customisable elements, such as... hmm... mods for example. ;)
Back to the romances, Regullus: *choking back sobs*, I agree, I have a soft spot for Anomen, and the others too. There does come a point where one can overthink a subject, and, in all honesty, I don't think the writers were trying to insult anyone. :)
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Sometimes people are hated for very good reasons and must be kicked. I prefer Anomen as a statue, since then I don't have to touch the jerk.
"Should there be romance in gaming" is like "should there be romance in movies". Well, duh, yes. Every game shouldn't revolve around romance any more than every movie should, of course.
(Trapping Dogmeat in force fields works :))
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Now I'm feeling embarrassed that I do like the stereotype, at least in the gaming world. Real life is a completely different story... but then again, real people are not controlled by IF THEN statements or limited by coding/acting/writing constraints.
Actually, that's why I disliked The Sims so much... they are so real life. When I play a game, I don't want to have to worry if my character has to go to work or the bathroom (yes, she did spend a fair amount of time unemployed and peeing on the floor, in case you're wondering). I want a little fantasy, perhaps even a little bit of stereotype, when it comes to gaming, especialy in my romance. Things I would never put up with in real life are suddenly charming (pompous men and know-it-all mother figures). Go figure.
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Sometimes people are hated for very good reasons and must be kicked. I prefer Anomen as a statue, since then I don't have to touch the jerk.
Flesh to Stone is your best bet ;)
Now I wish I played Fallout!
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Actually, that's why I disliked The Sims so much... they are so real life. When I play a game, I don't want to have to worry if my character has to go to work or the bathroom (yes, she did spend a fair amount of time unemployed and peeing on the floor, in case you're wondering).
You're talking to the person who i) cheats horrendously in Sims & ii) is the proud owner of the Verygay LOTR household, complete with private hot tub for Saruman and Gandalf. ;D
I want a little fantasy, perhaps even a little bit of stereotype, when it comes to gaming, especialy in my romance. Things I would never put up with in real life are suddenly charming (pompous men and know-it-all mother figures). Go figure.
And I feel the same way. :)
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(Trapping Dogmeat in force fields works :))
She said not to tell her. ;)
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is the proud owner of the Verygay LOTR household, complete with private hot tub for Saruman and Gandalf. ;D
:o ;D
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Funny, my fantasies never involve psycopathic needy braggarts. Rude musclebound idiots are 180 degrees away from my ideal, in reality or in fantasy. In reality I ignore them. In fantasy I ignore them after doing horrible things to them. I wouldn't mind a little bit of stereotype, if it were a stereotype I didn't find utterly repellent.
My favorite part of The Sims is buying stuff ;D
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(Trapping Dogmeat in force fields works :))
She said not to tell her. ;)
Fallout 1 game located and installed, downloading patch. :) :) :)
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Hypothetically, Dogmeat can also be locked in the elevator if you time it right.
Dogmeat's an interesting sidebar here, because although he's not a romantic figure, he is an emotional figure... arguably the most emotion-evoking non-human gaming character of the 1990s. (Floyd from Planetfall/Stationfall being the most emotional of the 1980s.) A lot of people feel very strongly about Dogmeat...
... and as an interesting glimpse into the mind of one game creator, when I interviewed Tim Cain for this story Dogmeat came up, and he marvelled at how emotional people got over Dogmeat. He saw him as a dog NPC with an extremely primitive AI script. In fact... (Regullus, and those with weak hearts, might not want to read this next bit) he said he found it funny when Dogmeat got incinerated in the force fields.
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Further proof of my theory that Tim Cain has the emotional intelligence of a turnip. No offense to Jan.
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Further proof of my theory that Tim Cain has the emotional intelligence of a turnip. No offense to Jan.
All so true! Dogmeat died on me in nearly every second fight, but he wouldn't get into my backpack no matter how many mints I was offering to put into it. That brave rascal. *sniff*
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he said he found it funny when Dogmeat got incinerated in the force fields.
Thought it was funny? >:( Speechless.
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My favorite part of The Sims is buying stuff ;D
What?! A woman who enjoys shopping?! That wouldn't be a stereotype would it?! neriana, I thought you were above all that! :P
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Re: Dogmeat, I had him with the one character I managed to finish Fallout with, only his death wasn't glorious at all. I'd been hired by the Crimson Caravan to ship some goods to the Brotherhood, and we were ambushed by supermutants! Dogmeat fell to their guns, but Banworth went berzerk (with the aid of a friendly chemical I know), and slew them all.
It was at that point that he became jaded to the world and decided everyone and everything in the wasteland was deserving of their miserable existence. Up to that time he had been a do-gooder trying to make things better for people, but he'd seen too much suffering, despair, and evil for him to think there was anything worth saving in the hell-forsaken place. His only friend in the world dying was the straw that broke the camel's back.
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My favorite part of The Sims is buying stuff ;D
What?! A woman who enjoys shopping?! That wouldn't be a stereotype would it?! neriana, I thought you were above all that! :P
I get it from my father. And yes, I do like shopping, if it's not at the mall and if it's not for shoes or major appliances. Anyway, I like designing the houses and rooms. Just because it's a stereotype that women enjoy shopping, that doesn't mean I must oppose it and pretend I don't enjoy it :).
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Hypothetically, Dogmeat can also be locked in the elevator if you time it right.
I think I was able to do that, too.
My favorite part of The Sims is buying stuff ;D
My favorite part of BG is buying stuff. ;)
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My favorite part of The Sims is buying stuff ;D
My favorite part of BG is buying stuff. ;)
some buy freak :D, must be the attitude of a noble ^^
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You're talking to the person who i) cheats horrendously in Sims & ii) is the proud owner of the Verygay LOTR household, complete with private hot tub for Saruman and Gandalf.
Oh... one of those rare moments when imagination fails me...
My favorite part of BG is buying stuff.
I actually now avoid collecting stuff for sale... just pick up my favorite weapons, and that's it. My husband drove me insane when we used to play together (we do not anymore) since he had a habit of sorting all of the equipment (you know, Imoen carries all the short bows, Kivan all halberds, etc) and look for the best price... for HOURS (!) when I wanted to see what happened next!
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you gotta be kidding right?
imoen the short bows and kivan the halbers....
sorting the equipment? thats just too lol
^^
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sorting the equipment? thats just too lol
I do that.
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you gotta be kidding right?
imoen the short bows and kivan the halbers....
sorting the equipment? thats just too lol
^^
Well, you see, when you first go to a merchant in BG1, he gives you a good price, but you have to keep all the similar weaspons on one person to get it for every item of the type... Well, my husband actually visited say every merchant in Nashkel and carnival before selling stuff... Then, after this opportunity was exhausted he would try to optimize the inventories so that everyone carries exactly the weight he could carry and all the slots were full. We fought over every short sword (1 gp) he'd try to dragg around. We also fought over how many hit points Kivan had to loose before he had to be healed. We fought over whom to include in the party. We fought over what spell to cast. We fought over downloading hacker's software on our systems (mods). To avoid divorce, I had to start playing on my own... Now we fight over me spending too much time on modding :)
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Re: Dogmeat, I had him with the one character I managed to finish Fallout with, only his death wasn't glorious at all. I'd been hired by the Crimson Caravan to ship some goods to the Brotherhood, and we were ambushed by supermutants! Dogmeat fell to their guns, but Banworth went berzerk (with the aid of a friendly chemical I know), and slew them all.
It was at that point that he became jaded to the world and decided everyone and everything in the wasteland was deserving of their miserable existence. Up to that time he had been a do-gooder trying to make things better for people, but he'd seen too much suffering, despair, and evil for him to think there was anything worth saving in the hell-forsaken place. His only friend in the world dying was the straw that broke the camel's back.
:'( You have my sympathy friend.
Prior to BG2, shopping was my favorite activitiy too! I am playing Fallout and I just spent a half of hour shopping the Hub choosing my weapons and armor, organizing inventory, and making sure that everyone has the best weapon. Dogmeat by my side. I forgot how much fun shopping for the pc can be. :)
In the Sims, I loved decorating my house, the neighborhoods, designing shops, bars and resturants, vacation villas! Too fun. :)
Well back to Fallout, I am only on-line because I had to buy a wedding present.
Oh, By the Way:
Has anyone else played The Secret of Evermore? My second all-time favorite NPC was in that game. You played a boy and his dog. I named the boy after my now husband, and of course, the dog after my dog. When a character got killed, the screen would go black, and on the black background would appear the sleeping figures of the boy and his dog, in my case, it would say on the screen, "Frank and Shout were never seen again." I got upset every time it happened. Nothing compared to how I felt about the demise of Dogmeat but it was hard. :(
What is the holiday? Oh, Have a Very Happy Kelsey Friday!
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just get dogmeat in bg :D a cool buddy to tag along :D
all love dogmeat ^^
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Every CRPG I have ever enjoyed had shopping. No shopping, no fun. I have had long discussions with my husband to explain this, but I have failed to convince him.
Sorting the equipment is also an essential part of the game especially if you are anal/obsessive-compulsive. Jaheira carries the healing potions, cleric carries the buffing potions, Minsc carries the arrows, leader carries the bullets, Imoen carries the jewels, Kelsey carries the scrolls. You have to be able to get things in a hurry. My nephew was having a few problems with his game of IWD2, and left me alone with the game for a few minutes. Horror! Arrows, bolts, healing potions everywhere. I had tidied up his inventories and changed weapons(his mages weren't carrying ranged weapons! I have taught the boy nothing!) and saved before I realised he might like it the way he had it. I hope it didn't take him too long to put it all back.
Stating baldly that after years of romancing Anomen- I like him ( but only when I romance him, because he is just too annoying without other dialogue to balance "What is it now?" and "Quit your mouth, wench.") Trying to explain this phenomen to myself, I have come to the conclusion the heroine, if a good character, suffers from the same conflicts as Anomen, so the romance is not exactly completely unrealistic. And as for his physical characteristics, I never thought Anomen was particularly tall, myself. Stocky and muscular yes, tall no. But he is a good cleric and fighter. You can't give the mace of disruption to Aerie. He is useful in battle, understands the heroine's conflicts, has a nice bottom (which also never occured to me before), adores her and thinks she is beautiful, there you go. I also feel compelled ( years of therapy will never be enough) to state that I have never seen Anomen as emotionally dependent. He supports the PC, as well. Kelsey says, "I need you," too. Yet we certainly wouldn't accuse him of emotional dependence. And now I have to stop talking about this because my husband is looking at really strangely.
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Kelsey has only one hissy fit, he never forces you to make the most important decision of his life for him, and he's not a jerk to everyone else. "I need you because I love you" is different from "wah help poor self-pitying awesome me". Anomen adores the PC and thinks she's beautiful, big whoop. He's obnoxious, therefore his adoration is obnoxious. He puts his lover on a pedestal, and I absolutely despise that.
The more reasons people give for liking him, the more I hate him :-*
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Kelsey has only one hissy fit, he never forces you to make the most important decision of his life for him, and he's not a jerk to everyone else. "I need you because I love you" is different from "wah help poor self-pitying awesome me". Anomen adores the PC and thinks she's beautiful, big whoop. He's obnoxious, therefore his adoration is obnoxious. He puts his lover on a pedestal, and I absolutely despise that.
The more reasons people give for liking him, the more I hate him :-*
I admire your hatred of Anomen. It is rational and completely supported by the evidence. Never stop.
I hasten to say my post is not meant to be - Reasons For Liking Anomen. It is -For What Insane Reason Do I, a reasonably intelligent woman, Like The Bugger? (I notice that you do not codemn his nice bottom as a mitigating factor. ;D)
It goes without saying that Kelsey is more lovable than Anomen. That is the whole purpose of his existence. To rescue us from the hell that is romancing the world's most obnoxious code. I imagine Cailean is the same.
As for emotional dependency, the fact that you make the decision for Anomen is more to do with the game construct- choosing to be evil/good, and re-playability. Though I like your description of his dialogue as "wah help poor self-pitying awesome me" it is not completely effective in convincing me. Is Anomen's devotion dependency, and how is it different to Kelsey's? (other than that Kelsey doesn't give us the s***s.)
Please don't be harsh on me. It's difficult to come out as an Anomen-liker. Be kind. I suffer enough.
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It's tough love, Eral. You have taken the first step: admitting you have a problem ;)
My reasons for hating the world's most obnoxious code have been canvassed many times in many different places. The thing that really puts me over the edge, though, is that he is the only romanceable male character and he's a pompous, needy, overgrown little boy with a personality disorder. Why I dislike him? Everything he says and everything he does and everything he is. His stupid accent doesn't help either. I feel we're supposed to love him out of pity and ego, and that sickens me. I guess he's supposed to be physically attractive too. If I wanted a muscleheaded lunk, I'd take Minsc. He might be a bit unbalanced and not too bright, but he's not mean, he's loyal, he likes animals, and he's respectful of women. Anomen has no redeeming qualities that I have ever seen, except that I can laugh in his stupid face when he tries to make me choose between him and Kelsey.
Kelsey needs a lover. Anomen needs a mommy.
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I admit to being an obsessive equipment sorter and saver as well, although I'm making progress - I don't save everything worth 1 GP except in the very beginning of each game! *hyperventilates*
And I do like Anomen, but I'm not especially good at explaining why because he is particularly obnoxious and I don't like guys like him (well. remotely.) in real life, so.
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Kelsey needs a lover. Anomen needs a mommy.
I hate to dis' Kelsey but...I would not exactly describe ol' Kels as the most self actualized character either. He has many self concerns ala Bioware as do all the original in-game romances.
Juxtopose the Kelsey and Anomen wraith scene in TOB. Anomen's concerns or neuroses' deals with his sister. His sister who did stay with the unpleasant Cor, and her murder. Anomen's vision is based on fact. Kelsey's neuroses' deal with the somewhat histrionic suppostion that his sorcerous powers killed his father. Kelsey's vision is neurotic.
To continue further. In SoA, K. spends a lot of time talking about his maternal uncle, the business, his mother's inability to be what Kelsey needed, his sorcerous powers, and the first time he killed a man, acts of vigilantism, and piracy(?) etc. Kelsey is tiresome about buying goods outside of established channels, and he does have that hissy fit that does come out of the blue, and of course, good ole Ceara. Also a little easy too. How many other females can Kelsey become attracted? Imoen, Nalia, nymph dreams, and then we know he is not inexperienced, etc. Makes me wonder if Kelsey did not trifle with Ceara.
Anomen is orphaned, his father is a drunk, business failure and does not appear to ever have had a kind word for any of the family. Anomen devotes his energies in trying to better himself and his world. He had to struggle to enter the Order without sponsorship, Anomen has a clear vision of what he wants to achieve in his life. He wants to be good. He has to strive to be good. He doubts that he is worthy.His sister is murdered and he struggles to do what is right, what is true to his beliefs.
I love the Kelsey mod, I think Kelsey's is a wonderfully developed character, and truthfully makes Bioware's romances look sloppy but he has as many foibles as old Anomen.
Frankly, I would like to see a romance mod where the pc gets to be the neurotic one, and the lover is supportive and funny, and of course, hot too.
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Go Regullus. Team Anomen.
But be careful dissing Kelsey. I once said he was a commitment phobe and my whole system shut down, and had to be rebuilt. jcompton swears there is no KELSEYRULES bug inbuilt into the mod, but I am not so sure.
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Makes me wonder if Kelsey did not trifle with Ceara.
Uhm.. I always assumed that they were lovers at some point.
Frankly, I would like to see a romance mod where the pc gets to be the neurotic one, and the lover is supportive and funny, and of course, hot too
I think it would be difficult to do. The thing is it is much more difficult to guess what a player can be angsty about than what NPC would. So you'd have dialogues which would follow a starnge scheme like: "My love, you look troubled again..." and then you will have a quick exit option (Non, no, I am JUST FINE! Stop babying me. Just because I had a fit last time, it does not mean I would have it every LoveTalk. Let us talk about... uhm... butterflies.) and a few "Problems" to discuss. Oh, I am just sad... unexplicably. maybe you can cheers me up? The lover: Oh, I adore your sweet melancholy, but putting a smile on your face is the goal of my life so... ---> the Lover starts a "risque anecdote" after which PC gets a chance to grow excited and RestParty() follows or she slaps his face... RestParty() follows... A flirt pack is probably better for sad/distressed/looking for comfort options, and I tried to do it in Coran's, but I do not know yet how successfully it will work.
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Anomen is orphaned, his father is a drunk, business failure and does not appear to ever have had a kind word for any of the family. Anomen devotes his energies in trying to better himself and his world. He had to struggle to enter the Order without sponsorship, Anomen has a clear vision of what he wants to achieve in his life. He wants to be good. He has to strive to be good. He doubts that he is worthy.His sister is murdered and he struggles to do what is right, what is true to his beliefs.
Well said. I think it's normal to be cranky in those circumstances. He has to work hard to overcome his nature (and nurture) as he strives to be good.
Frankly, I would like to see a romance mod where the pc gets to be the neurotic one, and the lover is supportive and funny, and of course, hot too.
I'll have to dust off the notes I made for a monk NPC. A big, strapping monk. :-*
Cyn (Member Team Anomen)
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Makes me wonder if Kelsey did not trifle with Ceara.
Uhm.. I always assumed that they were lovers at some point.
Interesting. Since Kelsey denies this, are you saying you consider him non-credible on that point? (I'm not being snide, I'm genuinely curious if you, or anybody else, think that Kelsey can be a non-credible source. After all, fictional characters do not always have to tell each other, or us, the truth.)
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I think Ceara's a stalker, and I definitely didn't get the impression that they were ever lovers. Kelsey's a lab rat to her. The only time Kelsey isn't perfectly honest, IMO, is when he says he's not looking at Imoen's butt.
Kelsey's a commitment phobe? Odd, I always think he goes for commitment out of the blue and way too fast.
Anomen's not "a bit cranky". He's a total jackass. And it is not natural or normal for men who have been abused to be total jackasses. He calls Jaheira a "wench". This is totally disrespectful of women, not to mention being disrespectful of Jaheira in particular, which is really stupid. He treats Mazzy like dirt. He gets along with Korgan. He yells and whines and bullies, then he turns around and compares the PC to a flower.
Anomen's worried about his sister because he abandoned her. He should feel guilty, what he did was wrong. Kelsey's worried because he's a worrier. I'll take a worrier over an abandoner any day, thank you very much.
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I'm genuinely curious if you, or anybody else, think that Kelsey can be a non-credible source.
No, Ceara is definitely a stalker. Kelsey is very credible. Look how upset he gets after each encounter with her goons.( I love those bits.) Anyway as a good character he shouldn't be telling porkies to us. If we can't trust him, he's Yoshimo. Or Viconia, who tells lies. And look how they end up. ( And he was not looking at Imoen's butt. :o)
Neriana, the last SOA LT reeks of committment phobia! "I can't marry you because of my parent's bad experience! Let's not wreck what we've got" in the same breath as "Gee I love you, I've never been so happy". I was distraught the first time I saw it. He doubts! It was only because Kismet assured me he sucks up bigtime in TOB that I was able to carry on.
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Interesting. Since Kelsey denies this, are you saying you consider him non-credible on that point? (I'm not being snide, I'm genuinely curious if you, or anybody else, think that Kelsey can be a non-credible source. After all, fictional characters do not always have to tell each other, or us, the truth.)
Well, you forget I never played ToB, so I thought maybe that was a saucy bit left for that part, to make Kelsey look a bit less of a sweetheart :)
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I tried to do it in Coran's, but I do not know yet how successfully it will work.
Waiting with bated breath for the completed work. :)
Viconia, who tells lies.
When people call Viconia a liar, are they referring to the dialogue when V. tries to distance herself from the pc by telling him her sins when she first arrived on the "surface," what she did to make her way and the murder of the farmer and his son? If that is the dialogue, I always assumed that the first version of the farmer tale was accurate. I always believed the story about the plump merchant. I had the impression that the second version of the farmer and his son was told to drive the pc away, and was false. Calling it lying seems harsh, and to me, just another angst moment brought to the player by Bioware.
it is not natural or normal for men who have been abused to be total jackasses. He calls Jaheira a "wench". This is totally disrespectful of women, not to mention being disrespectful of Jaheira in particular, which is really stupid. He treats Mazzy like dirt. He gets along with Korgan. He yells and whines and bullies, then he turns around and compares the PC to a flower.
In my experience, abused personalities do have the capacity to be, at times, total and complete jackasses. I have never had Korgan in my party longer than it took to fulfill his quest. The Mazzy "banter" did seem extreme and I cannot explain why a halfling striving to be a paladin would incense anyone. I don't recall the "wench" remark, and I am not quite sure what you mean by his disrespectful attitude towards women. He certainly seems to have loved his mother, his sister, and gosh knows, he certainly seeks advice from the pc. Anomen does improve his attitude as the game progresses. What does not improve is his soundset.
Anomen's worried about his sister because he abandoned her. He should feel guilty, what he did was wrong. Kelsey's worried because he's a worrier. I'll take a worrier over an abandoner any day, thank you very much.
Direct Anomen Dialogue Quotes: "The Order does not pay well, my lady. And even had I the wealth, Moira would refuse to go anywhere. She stays to take care of him, even at his drunken worst. Since our mother died, I think she can hardly imagine doing anything else. I hope the old bastard does not treat her too harshly."
"Ah, but listen to me. What a pathetic knight, I must seem, blubbering like a boy to over such a thing as my father's disapproval. You must think me a fool..."
Hardly arrogant and he does apologize, not infrequently, for his behavior, to the pc, and Keldorn, if not others. Back to the "mommy" quote, the character who appears to have mommy issues is Kelsey. I refer you to the Jaheira banter and K. complaining about his Mom.
I'll have to dust off the notes I made for a monk NPC. A big, strapping monk. :-*
You should get in touch with "BigRob" over at the Gibberlings Three website because he has a mod in progress involving a 6' 7" monk called Aklon.
But be careful dissing Kelsey. I once said he was a commitment phobe and my whole system shut down, and had to be rebuilt. jcompton swears there is no KELSEYRULES bug inbuilt into the mod, but I am not so sure.
Strangely, since my post dissing K., my mouse has been fritzy! Coincidence or has the non-existent KELSEYRULES bug struck again.
@JC - No, K. did not strike me as a liar.
Can I possibly add anything else to this humongo post? No I am done.
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Back to the "mommy" quote, the character who appears to have mommy issues is Kelsey. I refer you to the Jaheira banter and K. complaining about his Mom.
I'd say the character who has mommy issues is Valygar. ;)
I'll have to dust off the notes I made for a monk NPC. A big, strapping monk. :-*
You should get in touch with "BigRob" over at the Gibberlings Three website because he has a mod in progress involving a 6' 7" monk call Aklon.
Hoo yeah! :D :-*
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I'd say the character who has mommy issues is Valygar. ;)
If you had to kill your own undead mother, you would too...
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The only way Kelsey "reeks of commitment phobia" is if you say "are you asking me to marry you" about a week after you're in a COMMITED relationship with him. I never even saw that dialogue until I opened it in NI because I didn't choose it because I thought it was nuts.
Anomen's excuses are just a bunch of excuses. How often did he even visit his sister? Not often. He's guilty because he deserves to be. He deserves to be guilty every second of his life anyway because he's a bullying jerk.
In my experience, people who were abused have the capacity to be wonderful, loving people. In my experience, you don't need an excuse to be a jackass, and nothing excuses being a jackass. It's a cop-out. Bad behavior is bad behavior, and Anomen is an adult. And I don't care about the whys and wherefors, I am never, repeat never, going to like someone who is a complete jerk. Also, being egotistical and bullying always go together with having low self-esteem. Being a momma's boy who idolizes his sister and treats all other women (including the PC) disrespectfully also go together just fine. He "seeks advice" from the PC, yelling at her if she refuses to make his decisions for him. He treats every other woman in the game like complete dirt. He tells you your group is "ill-conceived" constantly. He says "I would kill you if..." WHY IS THIS ATTRACTIVE ???
Never mind, don't tell me, it'll just make me hate him more.
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Never mind, don't tell me, it'll just make me hate him more.
Fair enough. I too have a character that drives me nuts so I sympathize with your inherent distaste of Anomen.
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I'd say the character who has mommy issues is Valygar.
He definetly does, but he is not seeking to replace her in a romance. Anomen, though imo, looks more for a grandmother, than mother.
Waiting with bated breath for the completed work.
Thank you... I am getting cold feet I think and procrastinate the release... I went as far as allowing PC an option of killing the elf out of jelousy in one of the convoluted convos... and other things that looked cool on paper, but I dunno how well they would integrate in the game ::)
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[Thank you... I am getting cold feet I think and procrastinate the release... I went as far as allowing PC an option of killing the elf out of jelousy in one of the convoluted convos... and other things that looked cool on paper, but I dunno how well they would integrate in the game ::)
Don't you dare procrastinate on the release! I am somewhat familiar with the variey and breadth of your creativity, and I am really looking forward to the completed work. I know you would rather get honest criticism than empty praise but I have high hopes for many hours of enjoyment with the Coran addition, among other additions.
I am a pedestrian when it comes to the game. When it was revealed to me, through reading a walk-thru, that Anomen was the female love interest, I just accepted the fact. Of course I was disappointed and could not help but notice that a male pc had three love interests, albeit, all of elvish heritage, but it never occurred to me there could be another option. I hate to sound like a fanatic but when I see how people conceived of making the game more than it was, I am filled with admiration for their and your creativity. Enough gushing, but kudos to everyone that has enhanced through modding, fanfiction and art, the games.
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Of course I was disappointed and could not help but notice that a male pc had three love interests, albeit, all of elvish heritage, but it never occurred to me there could be another option.
Ah, well, if you are in a fantasy game, why bother romancing humans :)
I know you would rather get honest criticism than empty praise but I have high hopes for many hours of enjoyment with the Coran addition, among other additions.
Apparently hours of playing if not enjoyement actually is directly connecetd to honest critisism, since it usually leads to adding things in. I think the last addition was child supporty payments script :o *Giggles*
On unrelated note does anyone knows if Arcanum has romantic experiences for PCs? I have just picked up the game in the bargain bin (YAY!) and the character creation was lovely, even if graphics is terrible; I liked that it has separated out beauty and charisma, and actually has categories such as "Lady's man" etc, so it seems that it just asks for romances, but are they included?
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I'd say the character who has mommy issues is Valygar.
He definetly does, but he is not seeking to replace her in a romance. Anomen, though imo, looks more for a grandmother, than mother.
I'm sorry, Domi, but what does that mean? ??? I've never heard of anyone looking for a "grandmother figure" in a romantic relationship before. I confess, it conjures up images of Anomen really wanting someone who will crochet a nice afghan for him. ;)
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[Thank you... I am getting cold feet I think and procrastinate the release... I went as far as allowing PC an option of killing the elf out of jelousy in one of the convoluted convos... and other things that looked cool on paper, but I dunno how well they would integrate in the game ::)
I am a pedestrian when it comes to the game. When it was revealed to me, through reading a walk-thru, that Anomen was the female love interest, I just accepted the fact. Of course I was disappointed and could not help but notice that a male pc had three love interests, albeit, all of elvish heritage, but it never occurred to me there could be another option. I hate to sound like a fanatic but when I see how people conceived of making the game more than it was, I am filled with admiration for their and your creativity. Enough gushing, but kudos to everyone that has enhanced through modding, fanfiction and art, the games.
ditto for me
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I'm sorry, Domi, but what does that mean? I've never heard of anyone looking for a "grandmother figure" in a romantic relationship before. I confess, it conjures up images of Anomen really wanting someone who will crochet a nice afghan for him.
As in unmeasurable indulgeance, all-forgiveness, and wise woman who'd know it all kind of thing... Mothers, they often critisize their sons or seek to improve them in one way or another... grandmother's are much less demanding and more pitying. At least that was my impression :)
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On unrelated note does anyone knows if Arcanum has romantic experiences for PCs? I have just picked up the game in the bargain bin (YAY!) and the character creation was lovely, even if graphics is terrible; I liked that it has separated out beauty and charisma, and actually has categories such as "Lady's man" etc, so it seems that it just asks for romances, but are they included?
Yes and no. It has a romance but it severly limited, and only one option not hard to guess what it is to. An Elf Female if you play a male character. From what I know the romance only has very few and it limited in what races you can activate it. In other words, don't expect anything as for as a decent romance. It has all the beauty of your shotgun wedding in Fallout 2 without the comedy.
I still enjoyed the game even if the only character that ever has any serious development is Virgil. That I know of, their are ALOT of characters in the game.
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I'm sorry, Domi, but what does that mean? I've never heard of anyone looking for a "grandmother figure" in a romantic relationship before. I confess, it conjures up images of Anomen really wanting someone who will crochet a nice afghan for him.
As in unmeasurable indulgeance, all-forgiveness, and wise woman who'd know it all kind of thing... Mothers, they often critisize their sons or seek to improve them in one way or another... grandmother's are much less demanding and more pitying. At least that was my impression :)
Ah, I see. That makes sense. Thanks Domi! :)
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On unrelated note does anyone knows if Arcanum has romantic experiences for PCs? I have just picked up the game in the bargain bin (YAY!) and the character creation was lovely, even if graphics is terrible; I liked that it has separated out beauty and charisma, and actually has categories such as "Lady's man" etc, so it seems that it just asks for romances, but are they included?
I found that game rather addictive. :) Haven't finished it though. I don't personally own it, actually. Maybe I too should stop by a bargain bin...
There seems to be an interesting story and I love how your stats affect the way people react to you and such. I never heard of/encountered a romance option myself.
I think most of Arcanum's strength is in its stories/dialogues. I didn't much enjoy combat but--It's difficult to explain! Sufficie it to say, I enjoy playing it.
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On unrelated note does anyone knows if Arcanum has romantic experiences for PCs? I have just picked up the game in the bargain bin (YAY!) and the character creation was lovely, even if graphics is terrible; I liked that it has separated out beauty and charisma, and actually has categories such as "Lady's man" etc, so it seems that it just asks for romances, but are they included?
No. But those traits will help with the prostitutes (who will cater to all comers).
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On Anomen - ::)
On BioWare writing romance interests for females - ::)
Why do they make them so damned needy? Are we doomed to remain caretaking nurturers? Even Juhani has issues!! >:(
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To be fair to Bioware, the romanceables available for male characters aren't exactly well-balanced and independent, either in BG2 or in KotOR. Bioware seems to think therapy is romantic. I didn't really see any huge neediness in Juhani either (after she joins your party). Everyone has issues, after all, but everyone doesn't try to force their romantic partner to solve those issues.
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Issues (with a capital I) are a good cheap way to advance action and give the player a chance to say and do something meaningful and obvious in a way that can still feel good.
We KNOW Aerie's upset about her wings, so, we comfort her.
We KNOW Viconia inwardly resents being a sex object, so, we show her she's not.
We KNOW Anomen needs us to make the right decision for him, so, we do.
This is a hell of a lot easier to script than a romantic dialogue that begins with the NPC saying
"What are you thinking?"
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Issues (with a capital I) are a good cheap way to advance action and give the player a chance to say and do something meaningful and obvious in a way that can still feel good.
True, JC, but --- well, have you played KotOR? Bioware goes overboard. I think the player should be able to have conversations with the NPC about issues without being forced to play therapist, and I think NPC issues should fall less into the "what the hell is wrong with you??" category. I think it's handled pretty well in Kelsey.
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This is a hell of a lot easier to script than a romantic dialogue that begins with the NPC saying
"What are you thinking?"
Here at least in BG we are balancing on the edge of getting into the one thing we know about PC for sure "So, how does it feel to be Bhaalspwan, <CHARNAME>?" In short it is difficult to forecast what kind of Protagonist player would like to play and what issues interest him/her. So it is easier to develop lovetalks based on the known entity - NPC. Who either have to fluff, or have "soul-to-soul" talks. Soul-to-soul often sounds like a therapy, I am afraid, because it prompts the NPC to trust you his/her deepest hurts... and "Well, I cut my finger when I was twelve, and I have a scar there still, and it worries me" probably not gonna make it. So we get the majour tragedy. Every NPC pretty much has one...
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What??? Vic is not a sex object???
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Little things like the npc complaining syaing this, saying that, comfort me for X issue all make the npc more interesting and realisitic. In a relationship do you not know just about every detail, even small ones, of your mate's life?
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Married With Children
Al + Peg Bundy.
Peg Bundy: What are you thinking dear?
Al Bundy: If I wanted you to know, I'd be talking instead of thinking.
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I think NPC issues should fall less into the "what the hell is wrong with you??" category. I think it's handled pretty well in Kelsey.
I think the questiion should be 'What the hell do the writers have against you, to give you such a traumatic childhood?'
As for the neediness of the NPCs, that gives the PC some scope for roleplay in the romance as well as a vague sense that they are actually making a difference to the NPC's life. Besides, someone coming to you for advice often indicates trust as well as need.
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Maybe it's just more engaging to play out the romance that way. I could see how the regular development of a relationship wherein both parties lack a non-traumatic issue could be boring. Asking an NPC questions like "So, what'd you do today?" is probably not condusive to an entertaining plot. After all, how many reputable love stories don't involve some sort of tragedy/obstacle? I suppose that it would be refreshing at first to read a romance with someone self-sufficient but it would probably get old quick. It works in real life but not so much in literature. However, I think the sheer monotony of all the BG2 romances involving emotional issues does make it tiring.
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Maybe not the right place, but since Noname Nerdly is mentioned...
Anomen = Annie
Haer'Dalis = Hairy Dallas
Cernd = Senor Tree Hugger
(Not mine, all from Usenet discussions)...
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You know.. I'm all for plot device when it's incorporated into the flow of things and doesn't go on-and-on-and-on-and-on, but when one NPC is (seems) so radically different based on who they're supposed to be romancing it just pisses me off. And never have I been more peeved after finally finishing the Bastila romance, after the Carth "romance" which was after the Juhani.. uh.. flirt-thing-whatever-the-hell-attempt-at-something-that-one-line-was-supposed-to-be. (Lesbian romance my ASS; I knew it ::))
For those who don't know, Carth and Juhani cater to women, Bastila to the men. Carth and Juhani do nothing but f*cking WHINE for the first 3/4's of the game. Reminded me so much of Anomen it made me ill.. (Anomen - the romance I broke when I told him the TRUTH :D)
..or, maybe I'm just going thru another one of those phases. 8) But, to me, it's intended to play into the women are mothers/caretakers and I'm tired of it.
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You know.. I'm all for plot device when it's incorporated into the flow of things and doesn't go on-and-on-and-on-and-on, but when one NPC is (seems) so radically different based on who they're supposed to be romancing it just pisses me off.
Funny you should mention that... My main problem with the Anomen romance is that the party NPC Anomen and the romance NPC Anomen seem like two distinctly different characters. Despite its flaws, even if the flaw dosage has been liberal, I happen to like his romance; I can even live with the romancing-the-therapist routine, annoying though it is. At least he shows more personality traits than just one (positive traits, that is) as well as development as a character.
That’s just during the love talks, however. End romance theme music. Cue banter, or interjections, and I remember why only fifteen minutes ago I last wanted to strangle the damn bigoted bunch of pixels, especially in SoA. His attitude is almost surreal – I suppose it might work as comic relief, in a "what the hell is wrong with you" kind of way, but it’s not even amusing. More than that, the change in his attitude is surreal.
This Jekyll/Hyde thing bothered me the first time around, and it’s only become more pronounced, the more I’ve played the game. It’s almost as if the romance was added on top of the character as an afterthought. Sure, I can appreciate that plans change, that the romance feature might have been developed after writing Anomen (etc, whatever.) However, the single female-PC romance feeling poorly integrated ticks me off even more than the fact that it was the only one, or the particulars of the romance. That's just me, of course.
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On a different note, and on to a pet peeve of mine: if the player wants to develop the protagonist’s relationship with an NPC, why does it always imply romance? Romance is fine and good, so is NPCs interacting with other NPCs, but if I were to make a wish list, more PC-NPC non-romance dialogues would definitely be on it. In the vanilla BGII game, at least, the majority of them are centered on the Bhaalspawn heritage (the easy way out, as has been pointed out above). There aren’t all that many, either – at least, not as many as to allow for any development of relationship. I remember being cheered, in my first SoA game, when Jaheira could finally say something to my female PC besides complaining about the reputation, but… well, greedy child. :P
[Obviously, I use BGII as an example here, but I haven't seen much relationship developing in any other game, either. So the point is, "more cuddling, and more friendly chit-chat, too, please?"]
Then again, “development of relationship” would imply several different ways for the relationship to develop, I suppose. And, seeing how often the romances have only one possible path that doesn’t result in that fatal end-it-all SetGlobal… well. *shrug* I’ll take what I can get, and then ask for seconds. Greedy child.
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I didn't notice Juhani whining. She kept telling me how great I was, and yes she talked about how her life used to be difficult (it did, very much) and there was sometimes that "I can't talk to you anymore until X happens so I'm going to pretend to get huffy" a la NWN which is really annoying, but she was my favorite character. Carth -- well, Carth had Issues that I thought weren't accounted for sufficiently by what happened to him, and then more Issues that would make any romance between he and the main character ridiculously impossible. But what really bothered me about the Carth romance was the stupid ending. Neither of them needed anything more than a shoulder to cry on and someone to be nice to them at least; and, in Carth's case, someone to tease him, which made a good change. I didn't really consider Juhani a real romance, since she just tells you her feelings for you out of the blue. I wanted a Canderous romance ;D.
They were better than Anomen, anyway. Being forced to make the most important decision of his life is not "romantic", it's disturbing and scarily submissive. Anomen's both aggressive and passive-aggressive. This is someone to run away from as fast as possible.
Carth>>Valen>Anomen, so I'm hopeful. (The yellow dude in HotU doesn't count :P.)
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I still don't know why the friendships or romances can't be more pleasant. For example:
"So tell me about yourself <charname>?
"Well...the Bhaalspawn saga...and then my beloved sister was kidnapped by a strange and mean madman...etc. I am sorry I seem to be focusing on my problems. Please tell me about yourself."
"I had a lovely childhood, I grew up warm and supported by my family, did well in school, and decided the adventurer's life was for me. Gee, I am so sorry that the last year has been difficult. Sounds tuff. Would you like a backrub?" Or "Did you ever hear the joke about Bhaal, a Helmite, and a duck who walked into the Copper Coronet and..."
Did any NPC, romantic or otherwise, ever ask the pc how he/she were doing? How their day was going? No all they ever wanted to talk about was the dark influences of Bhaal. If it was not Bhaal then it was always about them. Their difficulties, their problems, their childhood.
Bah. WTH. I think there could be a happy medium between the therapy and the Bundys. Would a supportive romance or friendship be so boring?
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Regullus, I think we have similar ideas about this. I think the one thing that bothers me most about all the BG romances is that they're totally unequal. PC is forced to be "in-control" and all their dialogue options seem to make PC fit a certain mold. The PC is always in control of their feelings and calm when talking to the NPC unless they're just being outright mean. The PC does have the option to say that they struggle with their blood but the struggle isn't very real, and they're never in it at the moment. The PC is always the more mature, collected, care-taker. And I hate that. I prefer much more equal relationships. If an NPC can have outbursts and exhibit those "human"(elf, etc) flaws we all have, why can't the PC seem to? Honestly, I think the idea of PC-NPC romance altogether is flawed. I think it's akward and extremely difficult to implement and really not even that enjoyable. I enjoyed the Aerie/Haer'Dalis fling much more than any of the PC-NPC romances. I know that may not be the way most people feel but I just can't get my head into the place of the PC and take a "romance" with digital jargon seriously. I'd rather read an already planned lovestory between two characters with set personalities than stumble through one, making decisions for one of the characters, that attempts the impossible by trying to provide for all the possible paths of a real romance. I think that it is simply too big of a task, not to mention out of the scope of the game, to implement successfully.
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http://equipped.msn.com/article.aspx?aid=13
I finally have an On Topic comment:
MSN has an article on how gaming is no longer the sole province of the "nerdy" male.
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Oh, MSN does so I guess it must be true? Jason publishes one, but no, that doesn't count, but if we read it on MSN, then THAT must mean it's real!
:)
Seriously, female game developers are really nothing new. Various game studios of the 80s had them, and one of the first gaming rockstars was Roberta Williams.
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You wrote an article about the growing number of female game developers?
I was just going to mention Roberta Williams had you not already done so. I love her games. :) The King's Quest games were some of my first favourites.
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You wrote an article about the growing number of female game developers?
No. As I was kidding anyway, I posted my reply before I'd actually read the story.
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ha ha, yeah. I was kidding too. :)
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I'm hoping that at least the new mods or ones already in development are going to have a line that the PC can say:
So, when does it stop being about me and Bhaal, and start being about you and me?
and I hope the response won't be:
NPC romance/friend interest walks away in a huff...
also how come the PC doesn't have friend/bravado exchanges:
!You really saved my bacon there, thanks.
Nice shot Imoen!
Thanks for the assist, Viconia,
Groin. Ouch, good one Aerie!...
(At least text-wise if not voiced..., it's not like it's a humorless game, and shouldn't there at least be something like this)
etc.
No promises from me, but I've got some ideas in my head.
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Oh, MSN does so I guess it must be true? Jason publishes one, but no, that doesn't count, but if we read it on MSN, then THAT must mean it's real!
:)
Seriously, female game developers are really nothing new. Various game studios of the 80s had them, and one of the first gaming rockstars was Roberta Williams.
That woman gave me some of my best gaming memories :)
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There are two main reasons you can't say XYZ to a romance character--in BG2, in a mod, wherever.
1. They didn't think of it,
2. For one reason or another, it was more trouble than the designer felt it was worth.
The reason in step 2 could be "but hardly anybody would EVER choose/see that", or something like "dealing with the chain of events leading from it would be way too time-consuming." And open-ended questions are such a pain in the neck to deal with. When Keto comes out there will be a banter in which she asks the PC what his/her name means.
There are roughly 18 squillion possible answers one can give to such a question. We've got a couple dozen or so. I DARE everyone to say they'll find that satisfactory.
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Sure. David Gaider and the other writers at Bioware have some definite patterns though, and many of them are extremely annoying and not imposed by programming.
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Oh, MSN does so I guess it must be true? Jason publishes one, but no, that doesn't count, but if we read it on MSN, then THAT must mean it's real!
:)
Seriously, female game developers are really nothing new. Various game studios of the 80s had them, and one of the first gaming rockstars was Roberta Williams.
I said comment. Most on-topic comment I ever made in this post. My point was that main stream media had finally caught up to you. ;) She was fabulous.
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I'm hoping that at least the new mods or ones already in development are going to have a line that the PC can say:
So, when does it stop being about me and Bhaal, and start being about you and me?
and I hope the response won't be:
NPC romance/friend interest walks away in a huff...
No promises from me, but I've got some ideas in my head.
That would be very funny. Kelsey has a lines similiar to that but I don't think the player has the option to reply.
There are two main reasons you can't say XYZ to a romance character--in BG2, in a mod, wherever.
2. For one reason or another, it was more trouble than the designer felt it was worth.
The reason in step 2 could be "but hardly anybody would EVER choose/see that", or something like "dealing with the chain of events leading from it would be way too time-consuming." And open-ended questions are such a pain in the neck to deal with. When Keto comes out there will be a banter in which she asks the PC what his/her name means.
There are roughly 18 squillion possible answers one can give to such a question. We've got a couple dozen or so. I DARE everyone to say they'll find that satisfactory.
Rarely have I seen an option of what I would say to a character in-game. I think it would have been easier to ask the player about their day than the meaning of their name.
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I didn't notice Juhani whining. She kept telling me how great I was, and yes she talked about how her life used to be difficult (it did, very much)
Because it was compressed into too few dialogues, it came across as whining, to me.
and there was sometimes that "I can't talk to you anymore until X happens so I'm going to pretend to get huffy" a la NWN which is really annoying
I never did finish NWN so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
I wanted a Canderous romance
I'm right there with you - someone who was level headed, if evil, and dealt with things as they came up instead of waiting for you to come along (so they could whine about their major life crisis they've obviously not dealt with) and make them better so they can then fall in love with you, if they haven't already. Don't these writers know how emotionally sick that is? Or don't they care?
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I wanted a Canderous romance
I'm right there with you - someone who was level headed, if evil, and dealt with things as they came up instead of waiting for you to come along (so they could whine about their major life crisis they've obviously not dealt with) and make them better so they can then fall in love with you, if they haven't already. Don't these writers know how emotionally sick that is? Or don't they care?
Canderous would have been my choice too..... i like a man who knows how to be a man !
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***SPOILER for KotOR
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The great thing about Canderous was that he would change his perspective if his leader was good, but you didn't have to force him to. And not a trace of whining. It was refreshing.
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Jolee would be my first choice though. A sense of humor is most important. ;)
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Jolee's just a tad too old. More than a tad.
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Well, there is that, but since KotOR is far into the future.. er.. I'll refrain from taking that path. I just love his personality. :)
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Jolee's just a tad too old. More than a tad.
im no spring chick myself.... and the one romance that would really appeal to me is Keldorn..... he ought to leave that cheating wife of his and uh ... sorry , i just get carried away LOL
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wans't there already rsuch thing for romancing keldorn? ???
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Jolee's great, but he's like an uncle. Keldorn's wife had a very good reason to cheat on him: he was never ever there, for years. He's also more of an uncle type.
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^ uh.. :-X
That's a whole 'nother topic.