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Friends and Neighbors => Weimer Republic (WeiDU.org) => Valen => Topic started by: Thorium Dragon on January 08, 2004, 02:02:02 PM

Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on January 08, 2004, 02:02:02 PM
Hello everyone.

Now that I have some free time between now and March, I will be working on an expansion to the Valen Mod.

I've received Wes' blessing back in Sept 03 and his generous offer to host it on his site or integrate it as an optional component or directly (if he likes it enough).

My goal is to have it completed by early March.

I have read almost every post on the Valen Mod board and paid particular attention to the comments, suggestions, and concerns about romance, redemption, and alteration of the character.  I think I have a good handle on it.

My plan for writing the mod will be to play the game through with an evil party and take notes on where interjections can be made and her story expanded upon.  I will then write the dialog and code it.

The coding will probably be the hardest for me.  But it is a skill I want to teach myself and I'm using this project as an opportunity to learn.

Anyway, about the expansion itself:

   - Yes, she will be romanceable, but her romance will be the salt of her story- not the meat.  Her romance dialog will be only a part (albeit a potentially important part) of what I envision to be a much larger story. Hence, my calling this an "Expansion" not a "Romance"

  - Her origin will be given much more depth.

  - Her relationship with Bodhi will be explored

  - Her death and dying will be handled differently

  - Her vampiric powers will work differently

  - Her equipment will be different

  - Her skills will be different

  - Her class may be different

If that sounds vague- that's because it is!  :D  I haven't figured it all out myself yet and my final product might be very different than what I envision now.

As it stands the only things that are written in stone about Valen are:

1) she's a vampire
2) she's evil
3) she's bloodthirsty
4) she is Bodhi's thrall

Beyond that- I'll take whatever path I believe tells the best story and, most importantly, makes sense.

I look forward to your feedback and your suggestions (however I'm not big on complaints :angry:  )
 
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Seifer on January 08, 2004, 02:09:25 PM
I'd suggest that complaint handling comes part of your dialogue since I suspect that you will get an awful lof of them.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on January 08, 2004, 02:23:57 PM
Quote
I'd suggest that complaint handling comes part of your dialogue since I suspect that you will get an awful lof of them.
My method of handling complaints is very simple- I won't respond to them.  Constructive criticism (a very different thing than complaining) will always be respected.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Seifer on January 08, 2004, 02:56:20 PM
That difference should apply regardless of whatever label you stick on them.  Still, keep us posted.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Gabrielle on January 08, 2004, 04:32:13 PM
Quote


  - Her death and dying will be handled differently

  - Her vampiric powers will work differently

  - Her equipment will be different

  - Her skills will be different

  - Her class may be different

 
Why? This is not an "expansion" but a total rewrite by the sounds of it.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Sim on January 08, 2004, 04:40:15 PM
I'd have to agree here. You're making so many changes, why does it have to be part of Weimer Valen? Wouldn't it make more sense to simply develop your own Valen mod off the original Bioware character?
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: boo&minsc on January 08, 2004, 05:49:24 PM
hello there

IMO current development of Valen should be branched(let me see if i can explain better...) this is, current Valen is the root... other derivations outcome as other branches.(this allows someone to develop your mod, this is, if you would allow it)
ence everybody can try out their favourite Valen, and why is this important? hey just take a look at those threads below this one...
Valen romance (http://forums.fwstudios.net/index.php?showtopic=739)
Final re-balancing: Valen (http://forums.fwstudios.net/index.php?showtopic=2352)
so many differents opinions and ideas... what pleases one, upsettes the other


good luck with your mod, i'll loking forward to it  ;)  :lol:


btw, have u read my posts on both threads ? they're not much... but take a peek if you can  :lol:  :rolleyes:  B)  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on January 08, 2004, 09:11:19 PM
I'm sorry; I don't think I understand what you mean by "branched".  I have read your posts (as well as all the posts in the Valen Mod section) and your ideas are solid but I'm taking a different approach to developing this.

I'm not going to brainstorm anything ahead of time.  I'm just going to play the game, take notes, and see what grows out of it.  If there are moments that I feel Valen or the PC should have more to say, I'll write it then.  If what I wrote conflicts with something that's already established- I'll resolve the conflict by changing something when I've finished the game.

I find that if I take the opposite approach, to write everything down I would think would be cool and try to form a story around it, I get stuck in the "idea phase" forever (there's always more cool stuff you can do, right  ;)  ) and the story becomes only a rationalization for the changes I made- as a result the story was weak and the mod overengineered.

That was the conclusion I came to about my creative style after I spent the last month writing dialog, and editing files only to step back from my work for a couple of weeks, look at all I had done and realize that I thought it sucked!  :angry:  So, I deleted it all and am now starting over fresh- with less preplanning and more emphasis on letting the story of the game lead me.

To put it another way, I am taking a "whole story" approach to the mod (what motivates Valen?, why is she as vicious as she is?, could she be hiding something from the PC?).  I'm not thinking in terms of individual elements (romance, the sun, her claws, her alignment).  Once I get the big picture down, I'll let the details fall into place.

...That's the plan at least.  :D
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Auvrin on January 12, 2004, 12:26:51 AM
Time to get a copy of the current Valen backed up, as I wont touch anything with a romance involving a non-romance potential character.  I wish you luck, however, though I would agree with what's already been said.  You'd be alot better off starting from scratch with your own version.  One, because you've already got enough changes listed to consider it as such, and two, it would be a great deal easier to work your romance in with a more compatible character type.

All in all, I again wish you luck, as you'll very much need all the luck you can muster altering an existing character into a new light.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on January 12, 2004, 03:49:49 PM
@Auvrin: The current Valen mod will still be availible after I complete my work (which won't be for a few months, anyway).

I plan to distribute the mod as either an optional component (possibly with a number of subcomponents) of the existing mod or as a separate installation.

If you really hate the idea of a romance- play a female PC, you'll never know it exists  ;)

Perhaps I'll make the romance dialog an optional subcomponent during installation: yeah, I think I that would be a good idea.

As I've said before, the romance is not be the be-all-end-all of this project, only an aspect to it.  Female PC's won't see it and male PC's won't be required to engage her romantically in order the further the story (something that bugged be a little about the Bioware romances).

Also, Auvrin- I hope you would reconsider your assertation not to "touch" this.  I've read every post on the Valen Mod board and I have found great value in your opinions on the various topics here.  With the notable exception of a romance, I find myself in agreement with many of the various posts you've made in different topics.

We are completely in agreement on that Valen needs "more interjections, banters, and story building dialogue with the PC" (your words) - and that's exactly what my Valen Expansion is about.

I'll also remind you that as of this writing I'm the only one who has posted in the "Valen ideas" thread you started to discuss other possibilities for Valen **besides romance and redemption**.  Given that fact, I think I'm your best chance for the kind of character and story development that you have talked about in other threads.

When it's all said and done, I hope you do decide to try out my interpretation of Valen.  I honestly think you would enjoy it- and I would very much look forward to hearing your opinion.  :)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Schatten on January 13, 2004, 09:12:28 AM
i think maestro is already doing a rebalance of valen. at least i remember he said it will be in his mod. so please speak with him to make it compatible.
and i must say i agree with those who said it will be a complete new char and not valen anymore. what you do is recreating her from the beginning. if you want to do an expansion you should focus on the first three points you mentioned. the other points as i said will be worked on by maestro (if wes allowed it). trust me he can balance things really well. ;)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: T.G.Maestro on January 13, 2004, 12:24:50 PM
OK, I think it is time for me to drop in.
First, some general info:

-Indeed, my version of Valen is 80% complete. It will feature ALL of her original banters, there will be no change in the storyline, or her character. Her stats, abilities and vampiric progression has been altered quite a bit though. If someone is interested in its main effects on Valen, there are many posts referring to these changes in the "Final rebalancing.." topic.
Still, this is only a non-legal version, I haven't asked Wes for permission yet. This is only because the Valen Rebalancing component was only meant for BG2 Refinements v3, around summer. However, this can change in every moment.

And now some comments on your ideas Thorium Dragon:
- I won't interfere in your plans, since you seem to pick very different points of Valen. I would NEVER give her a romance (gosh, even the idea seems sick to me :blink: ), and I wouldn't want to change her abilities, equipment, race, classes too much. I think Wes has done something perfect, there is absolutely no need to change it while it is good as it stands right now. Her only downsides are her extremely unbalanced items (armor/claws), and some other minor issues like miscoded THAC0 progression and proficiency stars.
Again, this is only my opinion, feel free to do your thing nonetheless! ;)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on January 13, 2004, 10:48:21 PM
@ T.G. Maestro: I'll be sure to check out your version of Valen.  I'm in agreement with you on the unbalanced items of Valen.  That would be a welcome change.

I'm really a lot more interested in developing a story for Valen and more dialog than anything else any changes in class, .ect will be driven by that.

As for the "romance" (note quotes) I envision for Valen:  it will only encompass about 1% of the total dialog I have planned for her.   It's not critical to the story and may not be what everyone seems to expect.  ;)

But for all the romance haters, I've decided to make it an optional subcomponent of the mod.  I've voiced my opinions on the romance issue in the appropriate thread- I wont rehash it here.

As for the question of, "Why not make this a separate character?": I considered it but so much of my preliminary story notes is geared very specifically to her- transplanting it into a new character didn't seem to work.  I think it would just feel like a Valen rip-off (vampire working for Bodhi who joins the party and gets left behind).  It made more sense to make my first of what I hope to be many projects on the module that inspired me to learn the craft of modding.

On a different note, Maestro, I hope you don't take offense to this but I found your post a little condescending.

Quote
I won't interfere in your plans

Quote
feel free to do your thing nonetheless

Again, no offense intended- but short of sneaking onto the Air Force base that I'll be stationed at, finding my house and stealing my laptop, I don't see how you *can* interfere with my plans to make a Valen mod.  But, I thank you for your enouragement (such as it is).

The second quote, seems to imply that I was asking permission from somebody to do this mod.  Please understand (and this goes for everyone), I didn't start this thread to ask for anybody's permission- I already have that from the only person that matters- the original author, Wes Weimer.

Back in September 03, Wes responded quickly and politely to my request to alter the mod and he even generously offered to make it a part of the existing Valen mod and host it on his site.  He has already provided me with all the guidelines I need with regards to expanding the mod.

So for all of you who seem to feel you are the guardians of the integrity of the Valen mod, get over yourselves.  If the original author doesn't have a problem with what I do, since I'm sure he will be proofreading it- neither should any of you.

This is the first mod I have attempted to make and I am happy to do it because I love the game.  And yet, most of the response to this has been of the "Why bother?" and "There's no way this can possibly be any good." variety.  Trust me, given the time and effort I am about to put into this, I don't want to hear it.  If you are so conviced it will suck, don't play it- noone's forcing you.

It's almost as if you are trying to talk me out of creating something new, with the rationale that any change in something you enjoy can only be for the worse.  That doesn't make a whole lot of sense since all of you enjoy Baldur's Gate (at least I would hope so) , and this is a forum dedicated to modding the game.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Schatten on January 14, 2004, 09:42:53 AM
you seem a bit offended, arent you? :(
i have only said what i said because "I think Wes has done something perfect, there is absolutely no need to change it while it is good as it stands right now. Her only downsides are her extremely unbalanced items (armor/claws), and some other minor issues like miscoded THAC0 progression and proficiency stars."
sure, you can do what you want. :) and i am happy to read the dialog. :)
i say it again, please make it compatible with other valen mods like maestros. i hate it if i cant get the full packet. ;)

"So for all of you who seem to feel you are the guardians of the integrity of the Valen mod, get over yourselves. If the original author doesn't have a problem with what I do, since I'm sure he will be proofreading it- neither should any of you."

i am no guardian of anything. i just said your mod is not a mod more like a total conversion of valen since you alter nearly everything. and this i just dont see apropriate. she is good now except her überkilling power and her general silence. she dont speaks too much, imo. and this is what you intend to work on. more dialogs. :D :D

"It's almost as if you are trying to talk me out of creating something new, with the rationale that any change in something you enjoy can only be for the worse. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense since all of you enjoy Baldur's Gate (at least I would hope so) , and this is a forum dedicated to modding the game. "

bloody hell, no! i wont and have never talked someone out of making a mod. its only my opinion that, well, i said it already. ;) if i think your changes arent good for me i can simply mod it to my liking and restore her. ;)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Seifer on January 14, 2004, 11:25:36 AM
Here is where I press my advocacy of variety yet again but I'd be against ruining this mod for the mere sake of (drumroll please) balance!

Wes  admitted that this was a project borne of deviance from Sola,a bit of harmless fun.  Applying standardisation here will totally ruin Valen I feel.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Seifer on January 14, 2004, 11:45:40 AM
Quote
@ T.G. Maestro: I'll be sure to check out your version of Valen.  I'm in agreement with you on the unbalanced items of Valen.  That would be a welcome change.

I'm really a lot more interested in developing a story for Valen and more dialog than anything else any changes in class, .ect will be driven by that.

As for the "romance" (note quotes) I envision for Valen:  it will only encompass about 1% of the total dialog I have planned for her.   It's not critical to the story and may not be what everyone seems to expect.  ;)

But for all the romance haters, I've decided to make it an optional subcomponent of the mod.  I've voiced my opinions on the romance issue in the appropriate thread- I wont rehash it here.

As for the question of, "Why not make this a separate character?": I considered it but so much of my preliminary story notes is geared very specifically to her- transplanting it into a new character didn't seem to work.  I think it would just feel like a Valen rip-off (vampire working for Bodhi who joins the party and gets left behind).  It made more sense to make my first of what I hope to be many projects on the module that inspired me to learn the craft of modding.

On a different note, Maestro, I hope you don't take offense to this but I found your post a little condescending.

Quote
I won't interfere in your plans

Quote
feel free to do your thing nonetheless

Again, no offense intended- but short of sneaking onto the Air Force base that I'll be stationed at, finding my house and stealing my laptop, I don't see how you *can* interfere with my plans to make a Valen mod.  But, I thank you for your enouragement (such as it is).

The second quote, seems to imply that I was asking permission from somebody to do this mod.  Please understand (and this goes for everyone), I didn't start this thread to ask for anybody's permission- I already have that from the only person that matters- the original author, Wes Weimer.

Back in September 03, Wes responded quickly and politely to my request to alter the mod and he even generously offered to make it a part of the existing Valen mod and host it on his site.  He has already provided me with all the guidelines I need with regards to expanding the mod.

So for all of you who seem to feel you are the guardians of the integrity of the Valen mod, get over yourselves.  If the original author doesn't have a problem with what I do, since I'm sure he will be proofreading it- neither should any of you.

This is the first mod I have attempted to make and I am happy to do it because I love the game.  And yet, most of the response to this has been of the "Why bother?" and "There's no way this can possibly be any good." variety.  Trust me, given the time and effort I am about to put into this, I don't want to hear it.  If you are so conviced it will suck, don't play it- noone's forcing you.

It's almost as if you are trying to talk me out of creating something new, with the rationale that any change in something you enjoy can only be for the worse.  That doesn't make a whole lot of sense since all of you enjoy Baldur's Gate (at least I would hope so) , and this is a forum dedicated to modding the game.
A note of advice here as well, don't insult your intended audience before your work is received or you can be 95% certain it will not get played.  Get over yourself and this apparent sense of self-importance before laying that kinda attitude on those you will need to draw on to make your theoritical constructs any sort of practical reality.

Period.  

Modding is a hobby, this is an established fact.  Looking at the calibre of your writings you have your fair share of intelligence, perception should also be a part of this.  If you are taking it upon yourself to alter a current mod then you run the danger of upsetting those that  already liked what it was.  It is in this instance that people DO have the right to voice their concerns whether this comes in the form of a suggestion, a complaint or whatever  That will never change.  What will also never change is the fact  that you will have to deal with them.

I speak as the dude that is repackaging the SilverStar mod for the current day, following a precendent that was started when Tashia was upgraded by the fanbase.  I'm one of the few who has an idea of where you are coming from BTW.

To clarify, this place is mostly concerned with modding but there is a communuty here as well.  You'd do worse off then rememvering that fact.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Kiki on January 14, 2004, 12:33:41 PM
Quote
I didn't start this thread to ask for anybody's permission ...

So for all of you who seem to feel you are the guardians of the integrity of the Valen mod, get over yourselves.  If the original author doesn't have a problem with what I do, since I'm sure he will be proofreading it- neither should any of you.
I think most people would assume that if you're making an announcement about a mod, you're looking for feedback about it. Now you've gotten some. If you're not looking for feedback, then why not just do the mod and then present it for people to download or not?
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on January 14, 2004, 07:53:19 PM
Hmmm.

I started this thread with in the primary hope that it will get give me a creative spark much like I've gotten from the rest of this forum.

Instead, I'm finding it to be a tremendous drain.

I think the best course of action for me is to abstain from the forum until I announce the release of the mod.  I think my time is better spent working on the mod than defending it on the forum.

Quote
A note of advice here as well, don't insult your intended audience before your work is received or you can be 95% certain it will not get played.

Your advice isn't without merit, but I think the opposite would apply as well- don't insult a prospective modder before his work is completed or you can be 95% certain it wont get made.

Quote
Time to get a copy of the current Valen backed up

*That* is an insult.

Did I mention this was an optional component?  Yes, I'm sure I did.

Part of my reason for my willingness to undertake this project is my desire to learn command-line programming.  I could do it with the Unix machines at my air base, or I can do it with WeiDU.  Learn with a game I love or learn at work- not the hardest decision I've ever made.

So, you see, I will still feel the same sense of satisfaction upon the completion of this project whether it sits on my hard drive alone or on the hard drives of others.  My passion lies in the learning more so than the payoff.  However, when I'm done I'll be happy to make it available when I'm finished- if only to give something back for the many hours of extra gameplay I've gotten off the mods of others.  If someone doesn't want to play my mod because of some perceived insult on a forum, it won't hurt my feelings one bit.

Does that make me sound "self-important"?  I don't think so.  But again, everyone's entitled to their opinion.  :)
 
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: domi on January 14, 2004, 08:28:23 PM
:D Just go ahead and do it. Arguing takes immense amount of time  :lol:  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: serjeLeBlade on January 15, 2004, 10:15:22 AM
Quote
Hmmm.

I started this thread with in the primary hope that it will get give me a creative spark much like I've gotten from the rest of this forum.
So let's start back from here.

Know what? Here's one that will play your mod if it gets finished, no matter what.
I needed a reason to play BG2 *yet another time* and your mod looks like the first good reason I found about in months. I hope you really manage to get it done.

Now, is there anything you would like to discuss (and I mean discuss not "argue"  :)) about the various changes you have in mind? (It is difficult to provide feedback if you don't add some more details...)  ;)
 
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Auvrin on January 16, 2004, 01:02:34 AM
Quote
Quote
Time to get a copy of the current Valen backed up

*That* is an insult.

Did I mention this was an optional component?  Yes, I'm sure I did.
No, no you didn't.  Not until I made the mention of getting an unchanged copy backed up.   As for my statement being an insult, take it however you wish.   It honestly means little to me once I log off this forum on my random haunts.  I've never claimed to be 'nice' or tip-toe with what I think.

In general, this is your choice, nor did I ever say anything different.  You're altering an existing work into your own ideas, good luck with that, as I said before.  Though it would seem that anyone with negative input is being labeled as a 'gaurdian' of Valen, or something along those lines.  It sounds more like an easy answer to thwart off any unwanted attention in the form of an indirect insult.  I would say this however, I don't defend Valen.  I defend my right to have an opinion and openly voice it, even if it's about a written character.  Wether it's something you may or may not like is ultimately up to you, because once I've said it, chances are I'm not even thinking about it five minutes from when I posted it.

The major point, however, is that I harbor no hard feelings towards you or your desire to make your own version of Valen.  That doesn't change my opinions though.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: serjeLeBlade on January 16, 2004, 06:49:23 AM
Quote
I've received Wes' blessing back in Sept 03 and his generous offer to host it on his site or integrate it as an optional component or directly (if he likes it enough).
@Auvrin:

1) To me, it looks like he *mentioned* it in his first post :P

2) In my limited comprehension of the english language, what I read there seems to mean that the final decision will be up to Wes, which is good enough for me.
Is it good enough for you too?  ;)
Please. Peace?

@ThoriumDragon

Now my half-a-cent value opinion about all of the changes and the additions as you presented them... :

1)
Quote
Yes, she will be romanceable, but her romance will be the salt of her story- not the meat. Her romance dialog will be only a part (albeit a potentially important part) of what I envision to be a much larger story

Hehe... this is my favourite one. Do it please!!!  ^_^   :)  :rolleyes:


2)
Quote
Her origin will be given much more depth.
    Her relationship with Bodhi will be explored

These are very welcome  :)

3)
Quote
Her death and dying will be handled differently

Not a bad idea.
(May I ask "how"? Do you have something in mind already or care about suggestions?)

4)
Quote
Her vampiric powers will work differently

Hmm... is it necessary? (+ see above)
2 persons trying to "rebalance" Valen at the same time are a little too much...

5)
Quote
Her equipment will be different
  - Her skills will be different
  - Her class may be different

To what extent?
Do you mean normal equipment or the special one?
I mean, I wouldn't suggest to change her armor...
Sort of a trademark...
(detail, detail!)

I think that the people here could be less scared about "changes", if they knew what "changes" are we talking about in the first place!   ;)  

Quote
If that sounds vague- that's because it is!  I haven't figured it all out myself yet

Try harder!   B)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Schatten on January 16, 2004, 02:29:22 PM
@ serje: Auvrin means the romance wasnt mentioned as optional in the original post. ;)

points 3-5 fall under the rebalance category and thus "Hmm... is it necessary? (+ see above)
2 persons trying to "rebalance" Valen at the same time are a little too much...". ;)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Auvrin on January 16, 2004, 02:39:30 PM
Thank you for saving me the bother, Schatten.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on January 16, 2004, 04:48:01 PM
@serjeLeBlade:

I've done some work on it and here's what I've got so far...

I figure Valen could intall something like this-

  Valen Setup Options:
    -Story and Dialog
        ~Wes Weimer (no change)
        ~Thorium Dragon

    -Vampiric Ability Handling
        ~Wes Weimer (no change)
        ~T.G. Maestro (BG2 Refinements) if he wanted to include it here
        ~Thorium Dragon

    -Valen's Class <if #3 above>
         ~Fighter/Thief (no change)
         ~Fighter
         ~Fighter/Mage
         ~Sorceress
         ~Assassin
         ~Monk


Regarding equipment:  Some of the new class options for Valen can't wear armor- so something else would have to be implemented for them.  Also, I plan for Valen's vampire-specific equipment to be upgradable over the course of the game (see Valen, tombs, and blood (http://forums.fwstudios.net/index.php?showtopic=1393)).

Regarding death and dying: Upon reaching 1 hp Valen turns gaseous and retreats to a magical urn the PC is carrying.  After a set time period she will reform. I discuss this in "Valen's Final Death (http://forums.fwstudios.net/index.php?showtopic=2574)".  Check it out if you want more detail.

Regarding her vampire powers: check out some of the discussions in "Valen Dual Weilding Claws (http://forums.fwstudios.net/index.php?showtopic=1261)". Some good ideas were put forward there that I am considering- mainly her powers as summoned weapons, coded into her unarmed attack (like a monk's attacks) or as a transformation (like a shapeshifter).  As she increases in level her number of abilities and thier potency will increase.

I'll figure out all of the above after I get Valen's story and dialog written, which is my priority at this time.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: serjeLeBlade on January 16, 2004, 09:53:04 PM
Quote
Thank you for saving me the bother, Schatten.
I second that wholeheartedly.
I bet most people visiting this forum may possibly be uninterested in seeing Auvrin and me arguing... on the same topic... yet again :D

Quote
@serjeLeBlade:

I've done some work on it and here's what I've got so far...
I figure Valen could intall something like this-

(...)

Now, can we do as we have the "optional component" issue handled properly?
Players who don't like this or that will have the opportunity to choose.
(And players who don't like the ValenThoriumDragonProject item in itself will have the opportunity to save time by not downloading it at all... but maybe these are tricks of the trade, unknown to the occasional player, I see....)

OK OK: Free Silly Bard's trick of the day: if you're uninterested in a mod, *don't download it*!!! Fully granted, it always works!!! :D

Quote
  Valen Setup Options:
    -Story and Dialog
        ~Wes Weimer (no change)
        ~Thorium Dragon

I'd call this "to download or not to download"... as mentioned abowe :)

Quote
   -Vampiric Ability Handling
        ~Wes Weimer (no change)
        ~T.G. Maestro (BG2 Refinements) if he wanted to include it here
        ~Thorium Dragon

    -Valen's Class <if #3 above>
         ~Fighter/Thief (no change)
         ~Fighter
         ~Fighter/Mage
         ~Sorceress
         ~Assassin
         ~Monk

I would suggest: ask yourself this: "is it necessary to change <insert item from Valen's present skills/class/powers list here> for my mod to work?"
The challenge in modding is to try to do it without changing what already exists and is accepted by the majority of the players base.
You WILL get complaints ... no wait ... you will get *scores of people yelling at you*, if you dare change anything about Valen that the majority of current players like.
Do you really want to take this chance?
No wait
The correct question is: do you really NEED to take this chance for your mod to work? Is it absolutely needed?

(maybe not I guess, since you're listing 6 classes including the original one... my suggestion is, go with the original one if you just can make it...  you'll save yourself a lot of trouble this way)

Quote
Regarding equipment:  Some of the new class options for Valen can't wear armor

(that's the kind of trouble I was suggesting to keep as possible away of.
In the first releases of your mod at least)

Quote
Obsolete URL removed

Believe it or not, I've read all of your posts in this forum (about 50, am I correct?)

Quote
Regarding death and dying: Upon reaching 1 hp Valen turns gaseous and retreats to a magical urn the PC is carrying.

Ahem... :eek: Who's supposed to have provided such a power to the pc, and when? (and "Why"?)
("when?" and "why?" are simply questions for you to answer - maybe I've missed some thread in some other forum - I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really naively puzzled. I mean, mortals are not supposed to possess "urns" that save vampires from the true death... you've lost me somewhere, I'm sorry!)

Final Deep Nignt Drunken Bard Wise Suggestion of Goodnignt:
what about making the (non-)romance thing a non-gender-related thing?
This is not a question that doesn't need an answer.
Just think about it.
Listen to the sound of it (Serje starts playing)
"Romance just male (human elf or half-elf...)"

Hey, this doesn't sound like Valen, mate...
no matter the music, no matter how I try to play it...
This sounds like Aerie, Tashia at best, it's not Valen sound!

Goodnignt everybody
The Silly Bard is going to free you of his presence in a matter of seconds

Remember me and smile
Dream of me and laugh
(Amd I love you all... IF you are ladies I mean!)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Tancred on January 17, 2004, 06:59:34 AM
For every man and woman who believe as little should be changed as possible, there's probably one who's curious enough to want to see what Thorium Dragon comes up with.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Schatten on January 17, 2004, 08:04:16 AM
"Thank you for saving me the bother, Schatten. "

No problem. ;)

well, your install options are okay. so i can get the best out of 3 mods. :)

ähm.... does a vampire rest in an urn?? i thought its a coffin.

well, i am out of here since debatting is again futile. i just wait for the release. :)  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on January 17, 2004, 09:51:27 PM
Quote
Does a vampire rest in an urn?? I thought it's a coffin.
There is no debate necessary, Schatten.  You asked a simple, fair question, here's an answer:

You’re right, it generally is a coffin.

The urn thing grew out of the Valen's Final Death thread as a way for Valen to "die".  The original idea was for Valen to retreat to the Graveyard (which makes a lot of sense), but that creates a problem if Athkatla is inaccessible to the PC.

I proposed the urn idea as sort of a "portable grave".  As I thought about it, it struck me as something I could write about, as well as being a practical solution to Valen's unkillable fog.  As it stands now, the urn gets an explanation and functions as an important plot device.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: serjeLeBlade on January 20, 2004, 10:39:39 AM
Quote
The urn thing grew out of the Valen's Final Death thread as a way for Valen to "die". 
...
As it stands now, the urn gets an explanation and functions as an important plot device.
I've read that thread again but my question stays the same.

It's just curiosity: such a portable resting device is a luxury that no vampire I ever heard about, not even the most powerful ones, possessed.
Where did it come from? Valen gives it to the pc? Or Bodhi does it?
(Is any of the two of them supposed to trust the pc so much?)
Or will there be some specific quest or event related to its origin?
Nothing serious anyway...
Just curiosity as I mentioned above.

Also, I would like to know what people think about the idea to make the romantic compnent non-gender related...
I was thinking about the fact that Valen should be able to love any charming, powerful, evil woman at least in the same way she "loved" her mistress (and especially after Bodhi's disappearance, she could really feel the need of someone to "replace" her).
What do you think about this?
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: jester on January 20, 2004, 11:00:26 AM
Quote
Also, I would like to know what people think about the idea to make the romantic component non-gender related...
I was thinking about the fact that Valen should be able to love any charming, powerful, evil woman at least in the same way she "loved" her mistress (and especially after Bodhi's disappearance, she could really feel the need of someone to "replace" her).
What do you think about this?
Since bodily love, not to mention sex, should be beyond all undead, she could "romance" anything up to Irenicus or the jailkeep golem as it would be but a memory of love from her former life. <_<
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: T.G.Maestro on January 20, 2004, 11:09:54 AM
Frankly, how do you explain anything related to love in a vampiric state? :wacko:  :blink:  :unsure:  :o  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: serjeLeBlade on January 20, 2004, 11:26:51 AM
Quote
Frankly, how do you explain anything related to love in a vampiric state? :wacko:  :blink:  :unsure:  :o
Well, I would try Ann Rice's way.
Have you read "Queen of the Damned"?
The feelings the vampire Lestat was experiencing towards his Queen reasonably resembled "love" enough to be called like so, imho  ;)

The same holds true for what he felt for his mother, imho again.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: jester on January 20, 2004, 12:40:33 PM
Quote
Frankly, how do you explain anything related to love in a vampiric state? :wacko:  :blink:  :unsure:  :o
Don't know about the queen, but his mother would be a memory of love rather than love :unsure: . That said, I do think that the romance idea is viable to envision, since there are some people who even romance a Bhaalspawn  :wub: , but the "..and they *shrug* lived happily ever after" bit in the epilogue would have to be altered. BTW Valen would not romance a schmug who declines godhood for a nice peasant hut.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on January 20, 2004, 01:32:41 PM
Quote
Such a portable resting device is a luxury that no vampire I ever heard about, not even the most powerful ones, possessed.

True, but as I said, it does get an explanation in the story.  Hopefully it will satisfy.

Quote
Where did it come from? Valen gives it to the pc? Or Bodhi does it?

I address those points in the story, I'd rather not spill the beans here  ;)

Quote
Is any of the two of them supposed to trust the pc so much?

It's not an issue of trust, believe me.  :)

Quote
Will there be some specific quest or event related to its origin?

Yes, to both.

Quote
I would like to know what people think about the idea to make the romantic compnent non-gender related...
I was thinking about the fact that Valen should be able to love any charming, powerful, evil woman at least in the same way she "loved" her mistress (and especially after Bodhi's disappearance, she could really feel the need of someone to "replace" her).

That's kinda' what happens, already.  The "romance" is basically a footnote on that overall theme, (along with origin, ect.) for male PC to explore- or not (and it doesn't end the story if the PC doesn't, unlike the Bioware romances).

Quote
Frankly, how do you explain anything related to love in a vampiric state?

Differently.  Very differently.  It would have to be, and that's the approach I take.

Quote
I would try Ann Rice's way.

I've never read Anne Rice, but I hope you don't compare me too closely to a professional, published author.  I'm fairly sure I'm not quite in that league!  :D  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: serjeLeBlade on January 23, 2004, 06:06:07 AM
Quote
I've never read Anne Rice, but I hope you don't compare me too closely to a professional, published author.  I'm fairly sure I'm not quite in that league!  :D
Don't worry about that, it's not Ann Rice's style of writing what I like about her, I like the concepts and reasoning behind her stories.
And so I like yours (at least, the ones I've read in this forum) so everything should be fine  ;)

How are you doing?
Are you planning to post some kind of example or prewiew of your work in the near future?

Quote
Don't know about the queen, but his mother would be a memory of love rather than love  . That said, I do think that the romance idea is viable to envision, since there are some people who even romance a Bhaalspawn  , but the "..and they *shrug* lived happily ever after" bit in the epilogue would have to be altered. BTW Valen would not romance a schmug who declines godhood for a nice peasant hut.

I agree to every point.
The idea of "memory of love" is very appropriate.
I would suggest the concept of "memory of having been able to love", too.
(It was Irenicus the one who was losing that, not the vampires -i.e. Bodhi-... am I correct?) :???:
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on January 25, 2004, 11:03:02 AM
Quote
How are you doing?
Are you planning to post some kind of example or prewiew of your work in the near future?
I'm progressing pretty well,  although never as fast as I would like  :)

I don't plan on posting previews.  But as I near completion I'll give an approximate amount of the dialog added, and a more specific overview.

I do have some news on a separate note- T.G. Maestro and myself have worked out a tenative schedule to integrate our Valen mods into a single installation as outlined earlier in this thread.

My goal is to have the mod completed and posted by early March.
 
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: LordKableNikon on January 26, 2004, 02:15:02 AM
Ok I just want to point out to all you romance haters out there....
your character.... the MAIN character is the son of Bhaal,
The Lord of Murder, what comes with murder.... BLOOD...
What supposedly vampires like.... Blood...
Are we seeing a connection?  :huh:
If Valen found out he was a son of Bhaal, why the hell
would she not want to atleast try and seduce him....  :rolleyes:
come on, When Throne of Bhaal Comes around,
Where he has the choice to ascend, can we think blood god
and like vampire god,and so which blood crazed vampire woman
wouldn't want to be his consort and be the Lady of Blood and Murder? :wub:
I just see that also a little different because like Sarevok is some
Dialogue asked if he could be "my general" leading an army and just
murdering killing and pillaging all over amn and the sword coast. :)
I was like HELL YAH, but when the ending came up he didn't do any of
the things he wanted to do.  I felt really boned as the ending came up short :angry:
so like re-doing the ending would be hella tight as an idea.
Adding Banters of like:
1) Valen during TOB to actively try harder to romance/seduce
the PC.  B)
2)  Have like Edwin kiss his feet so when he ascends edwin becomes
an "elminster for murder and blood"   B)
3) Have Sarevok actually be your general and like have your evil army rape the sword coast.   B)
4) Have Korgan lead portions of that army B)
5) I could care less what that sadistic bitch viconia does anyhow, have Valen feel jealous and kill her in her sleep..... yes I like that idea. (Since Korgan hates her too) :D  :D  :D
So another point is that all the romances I have seen, it allows you to "have your cake but not eat it..." and I feel downed by it.
Also My Final Point is. Well Valen is Chaotic Evil.... is there a thing or did my world just flipped upside down and Chaotic Evil people aren't attracted to Power?
Like when the PC goes into the slayer she'd be "jumping for joy" seeing like oh yah
seduce this person and I can be a goddess.
So yah these are just my "humble opinions...."
I actually like BG2 and TOB because the Banters some of them I find are just funny others are there to make it feel like the npc's aren't just figures that blindly follow your clicks(Which I remember in baldurs gate 1, Edwin: "Elminster this, Elminster that, Give me a few hundered years and a pointy hat and I'll kick his arse." I'd be like now I am a god I will give you your shot edwin, instead of leaving him out to dry when you ascend in the original TOB.
my 2 cents

P.S. Yah I am just a guest to this forum so what would I know.... :wacko:

 
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Seifer on January 26, 2004, 03:42:20 AM
All of this falls on one flaw although it is an important ones.

Valen is a thrall to a more powerful, dominant and older vampire.  Romance should be off the agenda permantly.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Guest on January 26, 2004, 12:58:08 PM
2) Have like Edwin kiss his feet so when he ascends edwin becomes
an "elminster for murder and blood"  


Edwin's Romance mod is the mod for you. It alters all the epilogues for Edwin, romantique and not.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: LordKableNikon on January 27, 2004, 01:27:02 AM
Quote
All of this falls on one flaw although it is an important ones.

Valen is a thrall to a more powerful, dominant and older vampire.  Romance should be off the agenda permantly.
Yes, but after Bohdi Dies, is she still a thrall, how can one control another when the mistress is in final death?
I'd be grateful if removed some enchanted slavery upon me so I could grow up to be an UBER Vampire...
And most "romances" come to a certain point in the game after Bohdi gets "Whacked" and whose to say that she doesn't find the pc appealing when bohdi gets beaten by the pc?
And most of the times Thralls act in the best interest of there master/mistress, and following direct orders when they are in the presence of them.
So what I am trying to say is when she "gets her freedom" what keeps her from finding the pc very appealing?
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Seifer on January 29, 2004, 05:02:59 PM
What keeps her from rediscovering entirely different elements in her newfound freedom

It might be viewed that moving from thralldom to a relationship is a paradigm, that is, shifting from one form of slavery to another.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: LordKableNikon on January 30, 2004, 09:23:47 PM
Seifer,
There is one thing simple to this, a good amount people, and especially vampires in the D&D world are very much static.  When a character becomes a vampire they don't just change classes, it is what they are "Used To"

I do martial arts for a living, and really I stick to where my guns are at,  I have a problem I fight, I usually don't talk things through for I am a fairly intorverted fellow.

the thing is people stick to what they are used to, especially after a ground breaking situation, with vampires lets use Count Strahd as an example from the world of Ravenloft.  He is always stuck in the past: killing his brother out of jealousy and letting the girl he loved commit suicide.  So what I am saying is if the "romance" is a slavery, it would just be a different type, one that she would be more accustomed to than her total freedom.

Sometimes it is fear that keeps us from moving on...
Plus she has her freedom from Bohdi since she dies etc... that reverts me to these previous points I made...
1.Well Valen is Chaotic Evil.... is there a thing or did my world just flipped upside down and Chaotic Evil people aren't attracted to Power?
2.If Valen found out he was a son of Bhaal, why the hell
would she not want to atleast try and seduce him....  
come on, When Throne of Bhaal Comes around,
Where he has the choice to ascend, can we think blood god
and like vampire god,and so which blood crazed vampire woman
wouldn't want to be his consort and be the Lady of Blood and Murder?  

And since you said "It might be viewed that moving from thralldom to a relationship is a paradigm, that is, shifting from one form of slavery to another."
Thus this is a perception, and it might not at all be conisdered slavery in her mind...

Now for Thorium Dragon
If you are still accepting ideas
In ToB in the city of saradush, if you have valen in your party and have her talk with the prostitutes who are vampires, she would notice and like put you on your quest to have a vampire stronghold, fighters get a castle why can't like you being a soon to be lord of murder get a cult of vampires?
2)  Have Valen's epilogue atleast be evilly acceptable, like she would plan on killing you if you turned down godhood, but if you accepted and evil she would be your queen, it is almost fitting and ironic, bohdi the vampire girl who wanted to ascend to godhood, instead her slave and enemy ascend to godhood.
3) Perhaps your pc can share in undeath with her? being a vampire as well, so she'd think you as more than divine cattle(if she thinks of you that way)
(being a divine vampire might make the main char more appealing to valen)
4) I have other ideas but yah this note is getting way too long so if you want more Thorium Dragon then just respond
 

 
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Seifer on January 30, 2004, 10:54:14 PM
I studied Kenpo, I don't anymore.

I appreciate your willingness to talk so lets keep to that bit eh?

Staticness is more often then not the result of bad writing.  I'm not speaking of keeping Valen as a traditional Rocky HammerShow/Peter Cushing scenario, I'm asking for a bit of perspective.
People screaming 'lets redeem the vampire, lets romance the vampire' is just as stagnant as the above mentioned images.  Changing everything just so  that it no longer represents the original concept does NOT mean that is is any less static/stagnant/poor.

Chapter One - No Valen
Chapter Two - Get Valen
Chapter Three - Valen is still a dedicated servant of Bohdi
Chapter Four - stabbed in the back at spellhold
Chapter Five - takes new master - PC
Chapter Six - Previous Master gets killed by new master
Chapter Seven - get discount tickets to see Jon in concert


Pretty tight schedule huh

Now, to your assumptions:-
Quote
1.Well Valen is Chaotic Evil.... is there a thing or did my world just flipped upside down and Chaotic Evil people aren't attracted to Power?
2.If Valen found out he was a son of Bhaal, why the hell
would she not want to atleast try and seduce him....
come on, When Throne of Bhaal Comes around,
Where he has the choice to ascend, can we think blood god
and like vampire god,and so which blood crazed vampire woman
wouldn't want to be his consort and be the Lady of Blood and Murder?

In this case, she is more attracted to blood and  especially applicable, since she is a vampire, she might be looking for SURVIVAL.  The old 'they all want power' is one of the oldest justifications in the book.  Using this as a basis for a story will make it worthless from the start.  Inventing a personality and a history for a character, deciding what  makes them tick will be a better option here.

Option two really works on the basis of Valenhaving FREEWILL which isn't  the case, Bohdi is what, a matriach?   No contest.  If Charname is powerful enough to take her down she will  be no match for him/her as well.  This is what is missing from the whole thing.  What's to stop Kelemvor from strepping in and killing her before she could possibly ascend.  Valen was nothing more then a petty criminal who was turned into a vampire by sheer luck.  In her human form she lacked any sort of wisdom or clarity and in an undead guise she is guided by pure instinct alone.

Considering the scope of the game, there is NO time for her to garner a will of her own let along consider a romance or the options of godhood.


 
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on January 31, 2004, 11:13:16 AM
Quote
I have other ideas but yah this note is getting way too long so if you want more Thorium Dragon then just respond.
Sure, I'd like to hear them.

Quote
Changing everything just so that it no longer represents the original concept does NOT mean that is is any less static/stagnant/poor

In a nutshell, what do you consider the original concept?  Just curious.

Quote
Considering the scope of the game, there is NO time for her to garner a will of her own let along consider a romance or the options of godhood.

I'm inclined to agree, but taken in perspective with the development of the PC, who goes from getting smacked around by gibberlings outside of Candlekeep to potential godhood in a matter of months of game time, is anything really so unbelievable?

Quote
Inventing a personality and a history for a character, deciding what makes them tick will be a better option here.

That's what I'm shooting for.  :)  

Overall, I think that if the story is logical, well-formed and attention to detail is given throughout the mod it will be easier to suspend disbelief.  I find that to be the case in any fictional work.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Seifer on February 01, 2004, 04:58:28 PM
Point at a time here:-

I don't really have a concept as per se on this but see it as a little deviant.  I see Valen as a thrall who is always subjugated to the will of another regardless of PC or Bohdi.  I see, as acted out in her banters and so forth, someone who will live and die for her master/mistress.  Beyond this, yes, I agree that there is room for expansion.  However, to think of free will and romance, in my subjective opinion, is too large a shift to be seen as feasible.

Quote
I'm inclined to agree, but taken in perspective with the development of the PC, who goes from getting smacked around by gibberlings outside of Candlekeep to potential godhood in a matter of months of game time, is anything really so unbelievable?

Errm. consider the following points:-
1 - BGII is a protagonist game
2 - Charname IS the son of a deity
3 - Forces greater then the PC or Bohdi are creating their future.

In regards to the writing of any work, fiction or otherwise, you can take one of two opinions.  Make it up as you go along which if done properly with the likes of Kelsey and Chloe being an example, it can work or, as I prefer, and the method advocated by Tolkien, using an actual history whether invented or otherwise, can be used to explain much.
This is what we applied (basiclly, I'll admit) with K&Z and what I want to apply to SS/NS and Horace.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: LordKableNikon on February 02, 2004, 03:59:56 PM
Option two really works on the basis of Valenhaving FREEWILL which isn't the case, Bohdi is what, a matriach? No contest. If Charname is powerful enough to take her down she will be no match for him/her as well. This is what is missing from the whole thing. What's to stop Kelemvor from strepping in and killing her before she could possibly ascend. Valen was nothing more then a petty criminal who was turned into a vampire by sheer luck. In her human form she lacked any sort of wisdom or clarity and in an undead guise she is guided by pure instinct alone.
"Sometimes it is just sheer luck that makes americans millionaire's"
Powerball/Lotto/and assorted gambles.
I am percieving that you believe thralls are mindless automatans(sp)
but there are definately situations where she shows her own will.

finally got free time, and what I remember from the valen mod, valen did have some semblance of "free will"
I remember a few actions she had "free will"
1) She got angry at the De'arnise aunt something or other and was going to rip her head off (not that the thought wouldn't cross my mind, I wouldn't act upon it)
2) She thanks Roger the fence for how he always gave her a fair deal when she was a normal kid.
3) She takes the silver dragon eggs and gives them to the demon...
no questions asked there is free will especially on the first two accounts
for I don't see bohdi thanking someone for helping her thrall when she was "cattle"
or how she thinks on her past and wants vengeance for the aunty being such well... a bitch...
4)The Kelemvor part I did see and I remember back, that Lord Ao forbid all the dieties from tampering with the bhaalspawn's destiny... now off handling zapping ones npcs' I would probably believe as "stacking the odds" and or Tampering in my mind. (The thing Cyric said why he couldn't just zap the pc in his pocket plane)




Now like thorium dragon said in a matter of game months you come from getting smacked by gibberlings to ascending to godhood, Baldurs Gate is a definate thing that brings a dramatic shift in someone's beings, (The hell trials)
So what is really to keep Valen from having a dramatic shift in her paradigm?
And from your points I would tend to agree in SoA there wouldn't be room for a romance but it is said that you spent somewhere like a month or two in Suldanesslar(sp) so that being said two months plus whatever game time you were with Valen I'd believe a romance in ToB would be a very plausible possibility in my mind.
Alright and sometimes with betrayal people become "more vulnerable."
So What I think is that the pc has the ability to open the doors to valen for a romance, so in ToB there definately would be more time for her to be receptive to you.
So what I am trying to say is I concede to your logic that there really is no time for a romance in SoA but I know ToB is fair game.

Now my Idea for Thorium Dragon
Like in a situation where Valen looks for a knew master/mistress
I remember in the Soulafein(Sp) mod when Soulafein became a vampire
he was definately more Badass than bohdi ever was.
So by the end SoA she offers to make you her knew master/mistress (A.K.A)
Making you a vampire. Or in ToB in the beginning she offers the same offer
because in my mind the only way she would see you nothing more than a divine cattle is a divine master/mistress.  and thus the "romance" would be a little skewered and strange I'd admit, but things have happened where a slave has loved its master and the love was mutual responding.  (Ever heard the saying Love is eternal) B)  
Well and that brings if the pc is a vampire then the vampires in the sieged city would definately act differently especially if the pc is a patriarch/matriarch.
What is done with the vampires is up to you, I am just putting out examples.
I know that Jan and Haer Daelis(sp)  that they like to insult or they like to poke fun, I'd just be laughing because I was in a good party and Jan Insulted Anomen Keldorn and Minsc and I was like Keldorn and Anomen were reading to kill him if he kept going, and so I was like... if keldorn anomen and minsc decided to do a righteous buttkicking on jan I wouldn't see he'd be able to stop it,
Same would go for Valen, she'd be pissed because Jan insulted her and she went "RaR" and kill Jan, I really don't see to many npcs fighting.
So yah I'll stop for now I don't want to bore people with too long of notes  ;)
 
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Jerr on February 02, 2004, 04:48:18 PM
Interesting. I had thought this mod was dead, glad to see someone has decided to revive Valen! I for one will download and play this mod.

Good Luck, Thorium Dragon.

Jerr
 
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Seifer on February 02, 2004, 05:08:44 PM
Well, with all points being said and considered, I'll throw the towel in the ring and leave you all to it.

Good luck in your endevours!
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: LordKableNikon on February 02, 2004, 10:42:05 PM
Hey Thorium Dragon:
Do you have any alpha testers of your mod or beta testers for I for one would be like... Need Valen Mod to complete my Bg2 experience....
So i'd be glad to update you on whatever I find or go through the mod. :rolleyes:
Though if you don't want me to test, I would be incredibly :angry:  .......
Yah well I thought with the coffin/urn thingy, what happens if valen has it on her and she goes... well poof?? :(

Ideas
I would think that the vampire slayers would come in ToB in the oasis or the drow forest, it would probably make the best way, have it like 4.5 million exp they come in, and then make them a tad bit stronger.
Have more than one group of vampire slayers, like one come in at the very beginning, and they are like a newbie group trying to erradicate the undead.
you know, make valen and the pc a little more infamous, for I know Helsing Buffy Faith etc... there would be more than one group of slayers to attack the team.  It just doesn't make sense that there would be only one group of slayers ever to attack a "legendary vampire"
When Having Valen in the party and the romance "continues" and you are romancing viconia, I'd think they wouldn't see eye to eye on who should have the pc.  Viconia being an evil cleric could cower/control the undead while valen would see her as just cattle trying to rise above its station.  (what I am trying to say is "Have Valen kill her in her sleep" PLEASE!!!!   :D
If you have Minsc in the party and Valen, when Minsc finds out she is a vampire, minsc really would immediately try to make a good liberal butt kicking to her evil vampness.
Yah though in ToB I wouldn't see it as much as a romance than a seduction, but that is what I think.
Also have something like a will counter, matters through the dialogue, "is that the farther she is away from her mistress, and what you say on the dialogue the more "free will" she'd have.  So if you have collected enough will counters for her a "romance" might occur in ToB
Question Does Valen have dialogue about the pc's stronghold?
if she doesn't I would think she'd have about 2-3 matters what type of stronghold it is, and that there would dialogues that would give a few will counter points.  Just a few nothing big so if people don't want a stronghold won't really be penalized for it. I have a bit of examples.

Keep: Valen talks about hiding place,  The Chapel area (Borumir the cleric is bad she wants it for herself) and the "Cellar" A.K.A The Torture Dungeon (She likes the area and this would be the place where she might gain a few points.
Temple of Lathandar (She Hates it)
Temple of Helm (Jittery Unconfortable)
Temple of Talos (Great place) She gives a dialogue that you should take over the priesthood. and probably a dialogue after you have given everyone advice.
Playhouse (Nice place to start up a beginning coven of vampires, who would guess actors that are vampires.) She gives a saying about Vampires pretending to be actors pretending to be vampires....
Cabin (all bad too rustic and though she likes the plus of a town she might terrorize)
Paladin stronghold.... 2 words YAH RIGHT....
Planar Sphere, I don't have dialogue thoughts on it yet.
Thiefs guild you can't get....

also the I think she'd hear stories about Gax the Lich and warn about him, and instead of fighting Gax if she opens and free's Gax, the party gets a boon for she is undead instead of fighting him, and may also give a few missions, siding with Gax might be fun.
Quests might include the removal of the cowled ones
Removal of the Twisted Rune.
A new zone the Netheril area, in which Gax gets his final revenge...
I am like why can't you side with the evil people it is like.... Why can't I???
 
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Felstorm on February 03, 2004, 05:15:46 PM
Gax looks like the lone ranger kind of guy (or thing  ;) ) who hates everything and everyone and wants to destroy them all (loveable guy).

The rest of the stuff u said sounded good to me. For the planar sphere maybe she could hint to you to get some daemons on your side to bring them back with you (after killing one for their heart) kinda like the daemon in the drow city. For payment you could give something like valgars relative after he brings you to your planet (or something like that).

That stuff about her being attratced to your heritage is also good stuff
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: LordKableNikon on February 05, 2004, 08:55:15 PM
Here are other ideas,

If there would be a lot of coding work to do, or perhaps it won't they are just ideas
Have like Reinfeild that harper guy you find on the ground have valen able to drink his blood and like the elder brain and the kua toan prince's blood and maybe other types of blood to give valen bonuses.


Ok Well with Valen I was thinking of like, what characters wouldn't fall to the seduction of being a vampire.  This will happen AFTER the Buffy/Faith/Helsing
Vampire hunters "When the party proves there "loyalty and trust" into Valen.
Edwin: I get to live for hundreds of years I can get my pointy hat and I will now kick Elminsters' Arse.
Korgan: I am stronger get to swing my axe faster and wounds me less to me.
Sarevok: I can't have godhood why can't I be immortal and stronger still...
The Mainchar: "I AM GONNA BE A VAMPIRE GOD.... I AM GONNA BE A NAUGHTY.... A NAUGHTY VAMPIRE GOD..." Blade 1
"Other ways valen would be able to seduce the pcs and get the "vote" of the party."

Also I thought the twisted rune, why the hell are they so hostile, its not like just ANYONE can pierce there "Wards and Barriers."  So if your so awesome, you'd hire and use those exceptional people...
What about the people in the temple district in a guarded whatever,
is it like you have to be an ass and you have to challenge them,
it is like I can't ask you for work.
Or how bout Gaal and the Eyeless one Beholder, why can't you join with them, it is like COME ON... Can't you become a slaver or be an evil bodyguard or whatever?
It is like the game is MADE FOR GOOD ONLY... it is sad in my mind that they don't allow you evil choices more often.  
Like Sir Sarles thing,
Sarles: Why should I work for you?
Pc:....
Sarles: What I do need is 200 pounds of Pure Illithium.
Pc: I could kill you right now you pompous cur!
Sarles: ......
Pc: You either work now, or you pay in blood....
Sarles: *Scared*
Pc: Now work you ................... yah you get the hint.
That type of Dialogue I really like....
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Kish on February 05, 2004, 10:16:59 PM
Quote
The Mainchar: "I AM GONNA BE A VAMPIRE GOD.... I AM GONNA BE A NAUGHTY.... A NAUGHTY VAMPIRE GOD..." Blade 1
The main character crumbles into dust upon dying, and therefore can't become a vampire.
Quote
Or how bout Gaal and the Eyeless one Beholder, why can't you join with them, it is like COME ON...
They assume you wouldn't be willing to put our your eyes.  And really, even for an evil PC, I think becoming that depending on a creature as ultimately weak (compared to Irenicus) as the Unseeing Eye would be a big mistake.
Quote
Can't you become a slaver
Yes, you can.  You just have to be a thief and take over Mae'Var's guild for Renal Bloodscalp.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Felstorm on February 06, 2004, 05:34:09 AM
Quote
Yes, you can. You just have to be a thief and take over Mae'Var's guild for Renal Bloodscalp.

how does making you a thief guildmaster make you a slaver?
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Kish on February 06, 2004, 05:43:37 AM
It doesn't necessarily, it only does if you choose the dialogue option that tells one of your lieutenants, "Yes, I want my guild to sell slaves."
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: LordKableNikon on February 06, 2004, 04:02:11 PM
Ummm Kish I see from forgotten children, ever play that mod?
Since Bohdi tried to be a vampire to get passed the seldarine's curse,
why can't a pc get vampirism as a "blessing?"
I am just giving ideas, there is a way for you to bring back a half-vampire back to life after you have killed them...
So why can't there be a way to find an "evil altar" and get transformed into a vampire using the heart of bohdi? (Suggestion)
also it is a mod dude... I was just giving ideas...
That slavery thing in the thieves guild is a piss poor excuse for being a slaver
I want one of my "Men" to sell slaves,  I am talking going to captain haegan and like being part of his "crew"  And you can give the piece to gaal but he will always betray you, I am like you can't do alot of things really "evil"  (Saying most but not all, like you can poison the druid grove" and if you do poison the druid grove the one guy who put you to it, doesn't take over and so forth and you get left out high and dry... all bad... bad bad Black Isle.

If you read from my other posts I am just giving ideas to Thorium Dragon and his valen mod which he can use as "quests" quests that evil people can do and like...


anyways Kish I don't see you offering up any idead for the valen expansion,
all this is for: is to offer up suggestions for his mod what he can add in for valen and what quests he could put in, "it is a mod..."
Not to criticize other peoples idea.  :angry:
I spend a lot of time thinking of ideas for the mod, but right now I can just throw in basically random suggestions Since Thorium Dragon is being really vague on what he wants ideas on, he just asked for ideas on his "creative spark" and well that is what I am trying to do.


For Thorium Dragon:
just my idea/2cents
Now there are other things like Have quests for valen based off the stronghold you get.
Keep: Valen re-opens the torture chamber after mistress nalia proclaimed you as true heir or what not, for saving the keep... "After that nalia has an "unfortuneate" accident....
Cabin: Valen raids and gets a small posse of vampires after she preys and stalks on the village, the pc can help her out on her choices.
"Excellent time to bring in vampire hunters"
Sphere: if you have more than one demon heart you can start making "allies"
which will help you in the end of the game in your pocket plane against Irenicus.
On the condition you make them stronger somehow...
Just having quests for Valen based off your stronghold might put some flavor into it.
I could probably think of the others but yah,

Or when Imoen gets her soul back and Valen gets free-will she will ask you what would you do if she decided to drink all of imoen's blood since she is a bhaalspawn... you could give a sure, I don't know or flat No.
each one will determine what she thinks of you, and if you let her have her way.
Valen might get some small enhancement and Imoen goes "poof"
Like if you say yes it might give you a better chance for a better romance in ToB.
I wouldn't see Valen getting along with any of the good pcs except Valygar, maybe in my mind Valygar doesn't talk much and probably wouldn't give a damn about Valen right away.  

oh yah Thorium Dragon please respond telling the forum what you would want ideas on, it might help, atleast I'd try and give my honest opinion.
____________________________________________________________________

"I am part of the kill the viconia bitch club"  :ph34r:  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Kish on February 06, 2004, 04:09:58 PM
Quote
anyways Kish I don't see you offering up any idead for the valen expansion,
all this is for: is to offer up suggestions for his mod what he can add in for valen and what quests he could put in, "it is a mod..."
Not to criticize other peoples idea.  :angry:
Sorry, no, I do not buy "it's wrong to point out anything wrong with any idea another person posts."

I don't know what you mean about "forgotten children," and no, I'm unfamiliar with a mod by that name.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Seifer on February 06, 2004, 04:25:03 PM
Criticism is an active part of any walk of life.  People should learn to deal with it if its valid and disregard it if isn't.  For the moment, I'll decline to comment.

Kish,  forgotten children is a mod over at TBG, an IAP mod by Mortis if recall.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Felstorm on February 06, 2004, 06:40:55 PM
Quote
Criticism is an active part of any walk of life

as long as it isn't too harsh aswell
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: LordKableNikon on February 06, 2004, 11:25:22 PM
Look Kish, Thorium Dragon put this forum up for people to give him ideas,
Not to bring some sort of arguement or point out something wrong, it is all up to him what he uses dude. You can believe what you want or anything I don't care if you believe the moon is made of cheese. Plus we can all believe(I hope) that CBS is a private bussiness and they can choose to play whatever they want... but putting that aside.

So right now I am just going to "bow out" and wait till Thorium Dragon gives a reply or maybe something to prove he is there or is listening,
So good morning... and if I don't see you later, good afternoon, good evening, and good night (Truman show)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: icelus on February 06, 2004, 11:46:17 PM
Doesn't honest criticism and differing viewpoints usually lead to constructive ideas?  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Sim on February 07, 2004, 03:59:26 AM
Quote
Look Kish, Thorium Dragon put this forum up for people to give him ideas,
Part of any ideas thread is the process of debate. But in any case, that argument also fails, since it's not his forum. So let's see what someone who runs the place says.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Immortality on February 07, 2004, 04:08:29 AM
To LordKableNikon:

Look, d00d, if you post your ideas deal with the criticism, different opinions, and replyes disagreeing with it. Get over it and deal with the fact that some people doesnt think like you.

Otherwise, you can very sell send a private email to the author, mmkayy? (Southpark).
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Melkor on February 07, 2004, 07:09:47 AM
Heres my input. I disagree with the whole idea. Weimer did a nice job with Valen and fail to see any reason to redo her.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Sav on February 07, 2004, 11:00:35 AM
I reckon the idea is great. Love makes the world go round, an' all that.

I like that you will be changing certain things, because I see lots of people complain that she is overpowered.

Plus a Vampire romance would be something new to try out, and hey, it worked well in Buffy, twice infact.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Seifer on February 07, 2004, 11:21:14 AM
Anyone who mentions buffy or takes that programme remotely seriously needs to be sectioned.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Schatten on February 07, 2004, 12:53:58 PM
Quote
Anyone who mentions buffy or takes that programme remotely seriously needs to be sectioned.
i agree here. :D
i disagree with Melkor. valen needs more dialog. i always felt like having a silent killer-machine by my side. like a mp character created by me.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Melkor on February 08, 2004, 06:52:39 AM
Quote
Anyone who mentions buffy or takes that programme remotely seriously needs to be sectioned.
Sectioned?  B)  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Caedwyr on February 08, 2004, 11:14:50 AM
I was wondering about that as well.  Is it something like being drawn and quartered (sectioned)?   ^_^  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Andyr on February 08, 2004, 11:32:24 AM
It means be put in a mental institution.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Kish on February 08, 2004, 01:23:52 PM
That's a little harsh.  If the man who put Buffy, Faith, and Kendra in his mod were to be put in a mental ward, that would mean nothing would get added to any of his mods--ever again--making writing this add-on pointless.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: T.G.Maestro on February 08, 2004, 03:08:47 PM
Quote
Heres my input. I disagree with the whole idea. Weimer did a nice job with Valen and fail to see any reason to redo her.
The same here.
Quote
disagree with Melkor. valen needs more dialog. i always felt like having a silent killer-machine by my side
Because she is a silent killer-machine by your side :lol: ...
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Schatten on February 08, 2004, 04:20:47 PM
:P ;) back to your work. ;)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: T.G.Maestro on February 09, 2004, 01:18:38 AM
Quote
back to your work
Brave little bunny you are there... :ph34r:
Come and betatest, if you want some challenge, my prescious Schatten... :lol:  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Schatten on February 09, 2004, 08:26:33 AM
sure thing. wednesday begins my holiday and i havent found work yet so i have enough time to spare. :D ;)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: paganraider on February 10, 2004, 09:00:15 PM
<_< Folks, I for one would like to thank the people who thought up the idea to turn this into a romance mod.  I for one am tired of the norm, little miss prom queen who does something naughty with the hero type mod.  I want my sunday school teacher and 2thousand a nite hooker combo, for a lover  :P .  An if it takes giving a pint or so via my char. johnson so be it.  Bring on the can slaps and nibblets. let the fun begin....  THANK YOU THIS WAS A MESSAGE FROM THE STONER BROAD CHASING SYSTEM..... :blink:  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on February 16, 2004, 10:48:33 AM
I've been very busy for the past couple if weeks studing for and taking my qualification test for the Air Force.  I have a little over a week of free time before I get to study for the *next* volume of the test.  I'm looking forward to that like I would a root canal.

Now, to address some points...

Quote
... by the end SoA she offers to make you her knew master/mistress (A.K.A)
Making you a vampire. Or in ToB in the beginning she offers the same offer
because in my mind the only way she would see you nothing more than a divine cattle is a divine master/mistress.

I don't plan on making the PC a vampire, I think the PC has enough complexity without adding all the complications of vampirism on him/her both from a development and storyline perspective.

Quote
Hey Thorium Dragon:
Do you have any alpha testers of your mod or beta testers for I for one would be like... Need Valen Mod to complete my Bg2 experience....
So i'd be glad to update you on whatever I find or go through the mod. :rolleyes:
Though if you don't want me to test, I would be incredibly :angry:  .......
Yah well I thought with the coffin/urn thingy, what happens if valen has it on her and she goes... well poof?? :( 

I'm not at that point yet, but hopefully I won't need to beta test.  I appreciate the offer though.

As for the urn, the PC will hold it.

Quote
Ideas
I would think that the vampire slayers would come in ToB in the oasis or the drow forest, it would probably make the best way, have it like 4.5 million exp they come in, and then make them a tad bit stronger.
Have more than one group of vampire slayers, like one come in at the very beginning, and they are like a newbie group trying to erradicate the undead.
you know, make valen and the pc a little more infamous, for I know Helsing Buffy Faith etc... there would be more than one group of slayers to attack the team.  It just doesn't make sense that there would be only one group of slayers ever to attack a "legendary vampire"

More and better slayers?  A possibility.

Quote
When Having Valen in the party and the romance "continues" and you are romancing viconia, I'd think they wouldn't see eye to eye on who should have the pc.  Viconia being an evil cleric could cower/control the undead while valen would see her as just cattle trying to rise above its station.

The relationship between Valen, Viconia, and the PC is something I look forward to exploring.

Quote
(what I am trying to say is "Have Valen kill her in her sleep" PLEASE!!!!   :D 

No.

Players spend a lot of time customizing their NPCs with equipment and skills- I think many would feel ripped off by an NPC death in this fashion ( I know I would)


Quote
Also have something like a will counter, matters through the dialogue, "is that the farther she is away from her mistress, and what you say on the dialogue the more "free will" she'd have.  So if you have collected enough will counters for her a "romance" might occur in ToB

The mod will have a few different "counters" that the PC used to "push" Valen in different directions.

Quote
Does Valen have dialogue about the pc's stronghold?

Yes.

Quote
instead of fighting Gax if she opens and free's Gax, the party gets a boon for she is undead instead of fighting him, and may also give a few missions, siding with Gax might be fun.

I see Gax as pretty much beyond barganing/reasoning with.

Quote
Anyone who mentions buffy or takes that programme remotely seriously needs to be sectioned.

I resisted Buffy and Angel for years until a friend got me into them.  I think they are both excellent shows with an amazing ability to develop characters.  However, I don't use either show as inspiration for Valen.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Temujin Reborn on February 19, 2004, 02:12:27 PM
Thorium, whatever you do...

FINISH THIS MOD, PLEASE!

I do not care what anyone says - what you are planning is most excellent. I will admit that I have never envisioned a change in lil' miss vampire due to the fact I found Valen to be an already perfect mod... However, that being said, after reading what you have planned I feel it will just further enhance and bring to life the existing character we've all come to love.

You already have 7 people in this household waiting on pins and needles to play it (my 6 kiddos and of course myself...lol). I'm sure the mod would be played by a LOT more people than you might think.

If you do not mind I do have one recommendation/idea: One of the things you could do to enhance her 'blood lust side of the story'(when or if needed) is to have her sneak off in the middle of the night while everyone else is resting and go kill someone (not NPC's though)... with dire consequences for you and the group. Heck, let it be someone of 'great importance'! Maybe make it like one of the dream sequences where you see what she is doing (although your character doesn't really know what she did), then have that character find out the hard way what his pet vampire did while he was resting his eyes... Maybe it is punishment to the protagonist for something he said totally wrong during a previous dialogue (do NOT make it the obvious choice in the dialogue though - let it be very unexpected indeed)? After all, vampires NEVER forget and very, very rarely forgive...lol

Just an idea.

Anyway, huge congrats for breathing new life into the game.


-Temujin Reborn

P.S. If one gets the fighter stronghold isn't that castle just begging for Valen's own personal coffin for the times you decide to sleep there? (Bought, of course, for a substantial amount of gold by Mr.Bhaal Spawn himself...hehehe)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on February 19, 2004, 03:54:07 PM
I appreciate your enthusiasm, Temujin!

Your ideas are certainly solid, and I like the idea of having a cutscene, showcasing some of Valen's bloody past (and in your example present).

I'll have to think more on that...

I have given some extra thought to Valen and how she might interact within certain strongholds (mostly spurned on by this board), and I do have some scripting on what I think is a perfect stronghold scenerio for her.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: khayman on February 20, 2004, 05:03:50 PM
I whole-heartedly recommend you to read Anne Rice`s novels if you want to know more about the romantic side of vampires and their feelings; well at least as she portrays them. And I must add that she has an attractive way of playing with ideas and melting them into words. Despite some people`s reluctancy, I am looking forward to this mod, your ideas are refreshing and seem interesting.

Besides, you have an extra-cool avatar. :P
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on February 20, 2004, 05:28:53 PM
I spoke to a friend of mine who had read Anne Rice and wasn't too impressed.  I trust his taste on most things.  I don't rule out reading her work sometime.

I'm so far behind on my recreational reading, it is unlikely I will be able to add in anything else and expect it to get read anytime soon, unfortunatly.  If I did decide to look for any outside inspiration, my first read would be I, Strahd - set in the macabe D&D world of Ravenloft.

Glad you dig the avatar (I just wish I knew where I got it :) )
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Cybersquirt on February 24, 2004, 07:03:37 PM
of all the things I could ask, I'll take a 'wait and see' and limit myself to this:
why will this "romance" be limited to male PC's?

and a suggestion: read Anne Rice and judge for yourself.   -_-  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on February 24, 2004, 08:49:57 PM
Quote
of all the things I could ask, I'll take a 'wait and see' and limit myself to this:
why will this "romance" be limited to male PC's?

The most intimate aspects of a potential relationship between the PC and Valen will be limited to male characters but the all the character development and plot will be availible to PCs of either gender.  The "male only" parts consist of a very small percentage of total dialog.  I am considering putting in some "female only" dialog to balance it out.  It will basically depend on if I like what I write.

Quote
and a suggestion: read Anne Rice and judge for yourself.   -_-

Regarding Anne Rice (or any author): I always reserve final judgement of an author's work until I've read it.  It's just that as it stands now I have about 15 books I have yet to read that I have bought for myself or recived as gifts.

That number just is my recreational reading.  It doesn't account for the 10 or so technical books and required study that I need to accomplish for my career.

I love reading, of course, but as it stands now unless someone who knows my tastes very well (limited to a couple of friends) gives me a rave review of a book, I won't be reading it until I get done with all the reading I have now.  When I get a lukewarm opinion of a book that I would have considered, it goes to the back of what is now a very long line  ;)  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: serjeLeBlade on February 25, 2004, 06:49:46 AM
Quote
I spoke to a friend of mine who had read Anne Rice and wasn't too impressed
Think I could guess what he was talking about...
Most unfortunately, some of Ann Rice's work can bore a man to death, and the poor guy doesn't even get to become a vampire in the process  :rolleyes:

Still, I think Queen of The Damned is worth reading.
(Most unfortunately again, watching the movie would be a total waste of time -- you have to read the book if you want any chance to figure out what's going on)

Otoh, Buffy made it in the mod and Queen Akasha didn't...
(but how could she? There was Bodhi already)

He he... my next npc... the one for your mod... will most likely be called Lestat...  :rolleyes: (poor Valen...)

Ah, just one last thing...

"As far as I know, powerful priestess of Shar don't get killed in their sleep by vampires very often... Things usually work the other way around, abbil... !"  ;)
- Viccy
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: kinneer on February 25, 2004, 10:47:15 AM
Quote
Thorium, whatever you do...

FINISH THIS MOD, PLEASE!

I do not care what anyone says - what you are planning is most excellent. I will admit that I have never envisioned a change in lil' miss vampire due to the fact I found Valen to be an already perfect mod... However, that being said, after reading what you have planned I feel it will just further enhance and bring to life the existing character we've all come to love.

You already have 7 people in this household waiting on pins and needles to play it (my 6 kiddos and of course myself...lol). I'm sure the mod would be played by a LOT more people than you might think.

If you do not mind I do have one recommendation/idea: One of the things you could do to enhance her 'blood lust side of the story'(when or if needed) is to have her sneak off in the middle of the night while everyone else is resting and go kill someone (not NPC's though)... with dire consequences for you and the group. Heck, let it be someone of 'great importance'! Maybe make it like one of the dream sequences where you see what she is doing (although your character doesn't really know what she did), then have that character find out the hard way what his pet vampire did while he was resting his eyes... Maybe it is punishment to the protagonist for something he said totally wrong during a previous dialogue (do NOT make it the obvious choice in the dialogue though - let it be very unexpected indeed)? After all, vampires NEVER forget and very, very rarely forgive...lol

Just an idea.

Anyway, huge congrats for breathing new life into the game.


-Temujin Reborn

P.S. If one gets the fighter stronghold isn't that castle just begging for Valen's own personal coffin for the times you decide to sleep there? (Bought, of course, for a substantial amount of gold by Mr.Bhaal Spawn himself...hehehe)
Interesting idea on her sneaking off to feed or whatever but I wonder how this will be implemented successfully.

Having Valen in party limits the party to resting at daytime and working at night, pretty much adopting Valen's own working hours. Valen is awfully weak during day. At night the rest of the party is active so she is very unlikely to be able to sneak away at that time.

Just my opinion.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Cybersquirt on February 25, 2004, 07:35:43 PM
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I am considering putting in some "female only" dialog to balance it out.  It will basically depend on if I like what I write.
 
That makes sense and I can appreciate that you may not be able to write fem-fem as well as fem-male.  I only ask because my idea of vampires (heavily inspired by Rice) is that they are neither heterosexual nor monagamous.. among other things.

..and yes, 'Queen of the Damned' is a good read but I liked 'The Vampire Lestat' as well, if not more so.  The third of the trilogy was a bit weak tho, IMO.

The movie was just plain ridiculous.  <_<  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Temujin Reborn on February 26, 2004, 10:20:15 AM
Kinneer, you have a good point there. I guess I hadn't thought of that technical point... I was just mainly concerned with having her sneak off in the middle of resting, be it night or day really.

You have a good eye for detail, kinneer ;)

I sure wished this mod was done and installed already...lol


-Temujin


Sure would be interesting to say the least if you were resting back the the ol' D'Arnisse hold in your bedroom only to wake up and see that SOMEONE snuck out of their coffin and killed the faithful butler...lol Hmm, wonder who could've put those purple puncture wounds into his neck :P

...Or to wake up and have the castle surrounded by NUMEROUS angry (to say the least) paladins over finding one of their own men sucked dry in broad daylight ... Knowing that the only day-walker (they know of) is your beloved Valen...lol Being LAWFUL they couldn't rightly just kill her before having substantial proof it truly was her - BUT - what if it wasn't her? And if it was her, then what? :)
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Kish on February 26, 2004, 11:16:27 AM
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Being LAWFUL they couldn't rightly just kill her before having substantial proof it truly was her
Well, yeah, they could.

She's a monster.  A bloodsucking corpse.  You don't need a crime to have been committed to kill a vampire.  Legally speaking, she's already dead.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on February 26, 2004, 12:31:33 PM
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She's a monster.  A bloodsucking corpse.  You don't need a crime to have been committed to kill a vampire.  Legally speaking, she's already dead.
I'm sure the Paladins (and most of the living who like staying that way) would agree with this statement.

Regardless, I believe, if the party makes knowledge that they are associated with a vampire, especially one that can bypass their typically held weakness to daylight, they are just begging for big trouble from everybody.

Not just having paladins coming after them but to make it impossible to move freely about any city.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: TheAngulion on March 05, 2004, 09:22:04 PM

As someone has already mentioned before, for each opponent out there, there is at least one supporter as well. Hence, please finish this mod, ThoriumDragon! I am really looking forward to it and will definitely download and try it! Some excellent ideas you have voiced.

 
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Guest on March 10, 2004, 10:52:56 PM
First, I am just a guest who started visiting this board about a week ago. I know this is really "fast" reply(lol) since last reply is at Jan but regardless I want to say that it seems the argument is getting to the point which is more than necessary.  

Personally, I greatly enjoy Valen mod.  It is my favorite, and even if I don't plan to play the evil party or use Valen as a party member, it is a mod that is alwyas installed on my comp soon as BG2 is installed along ascension and tactics.  

What I want to say is-the idea of making an expansion of Valen sounds GREAT!  And I know there are awful number of people who agrees with me on this point-if you have a distaste for it because of your own perspective, don't play it.  Of course, some arguments on this board sound very logical and constructive.  But personally, please stop because I want the mod expansion to be out as soon as possible :)

For Thorium, I want to say that I really appreciate your work and I will eagerly wait for the release of the mod.  So work hard and know that there are lots of fan of yours in this world!
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Guest on March 10, 2004, 10:54:29 PM
Oh oops, my bad:  I didn't even notice 3 pages of reply and it seems that my reply is in current :) anyways, good luck to you Thorium!
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Guest on March 12, 2004, 04:51:27 PM
How will this mod affect other mods out there?
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Modda Masta on March 12, 2004, 05:02:24 PM
may be compatible with valen mod
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Xzar on March 28, 2004, 10:32:01 AM
What are the race/gender/class requirements for a romance?
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on March 29, 2004, 06:28:13 PM
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What are the race/gender/class requirements for a romance?
Probably Male Human, Elf, or Half-Elf for "romance".

All genders/races for all the other dialog and story.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Mah on March 30, 2004, 11:35:38 AM
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What are the race/gender/class requirements for a romance?
Probably Male Human, Elf, or Half-Elf for "romance".

All genders/races for all the other dialog and story.
And of course half-orc. When you are playing evil, you want to take that unique chance of being evil orc-dude :)

So yeah, romancing with half-orc too. Maybe orcs have big d***s or something to make Valen interested :D
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Baltrek on March 30, 2004, 12:00:00 PM
Mah-

That sort of comment is probably not the type of thing that is what many people would like to read.  They add nothing to the discussion, or creative suggestions pertinent to modding.  Please keep your comments clean.

But, I agree the game is in need of a half-orc romance.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Kish on March 30, 2004, 12:05:19 PM
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But, I agree the game is in need of a half-orc romance.
Half-orcs can romance Viconia.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Trinin on March 30, 2004, 01:54:37 PM
Finally deciding to delurk! It's me! For those who know me will advise those who don't to RUN FOR YOUR LIVES. Now that the intro's out of the way I'll say my piece. Intresting idea, great that your doing it, can't wait to play it, I'm the only one alowed to make dirty comments, who actualy plays as a half orc (aside expermenting with the race), and Vicky good God who'd thrust her on any body?

                                                                 Cheers~Everyones favorite incubus/ god of death/ kitsunes fox
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Mah on March 30, 2004, 02:24:35 PM
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Mah-

That sort of comment is probably not the type of thing that is what many people would like to read.  They add nothing to the discussion, or creative suggestions pertinent to modding.  Please keep your comments clean.

But, I agree the game is in need of a half-orc romance.
I'm terribly sorry, but it IS logical. I mean, follow this pattern:

Valen = a woman -> Women have needs -> Women are easily attracted(like men) to things that are new and different

Hence, it's easy to think Valen might as well have a relationship(mostly sexual at that) with a half-orc. Then again, if this orc character is evil, he could just force Valen to have sex with him. This is also a cold fact of life(rapings does happen), but I don't know if people want to keep BG as a 'my-little-pony-fantasy-nothing-bad-nor-cruel-happens'. I think not. So I guess good options for romancing would be:
a) You can just seduce her and have a physical relationship.
B) You are spawn of Bhaal, you just make her your sex-toy(maybe after fighting her)
c) Real love relationship?

And if someone is going to say "Vampires don't lust" just check out movies like Dracula, Bloody Mary and Interview with an Vampire or read some of the original books. Vampires DO lust. And depending on source, they can also love.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Trinin on March 30, 2004, 03:20:21 PM
Ummm... *steps several feet away from Mah* Oooh I'd be careful. And yes bad things I should know. And who said vampires don't lust.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: HarvesterOfSorrow on March 30, 2004, 10:25:30 PM
Thorium I would be interested in helping with the expansion if you need any. Or if you really desire to do it by yourself i guess i wont be bothered. But i guess it would speed up the process. If you would just reply ( i hardly check my email 380 new messages and still counting  <_< ) alrighty thats about it...
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Thorium Dragon on March 31, 2004, 10:10:25 AM
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And of course half-orc. When you are playing evil, you want to take that unique chance of being evil orc-dude :)
Yeah, I think a half-orc could make sense.

Strange I didn't think of it in my original answer considering my protagoninst in my runthrough is a half-orc.

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Thorium I would be interested in helping with the expansion if you need any. Or if you really desire to do it by yourself i guess i wont be bothered. But i guess it would speed up the process. If you would just reply ( i hardly check my email 380 new messages and still counting  <_< ) alrighty thats about it...
I appreciate the offer but I prefer to do as much of this as I can.  My schedule is too erratic and unreliable for me to feel comfortable commiting others to this project.

I would be interested in a collaborative project in the future, most likely.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Guest on March 31, 2004, 11:37:58 AM
no evil lesbian romance then? :(  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Mah on March 31, 2004, 05:00:57 PM
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Ummm... *steps several feet away from Mah* Oooh I'd be careful.
Careful about what? :/

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And who said vampires don't lust.

Well, people here are saying that Valen would try to seduce the player because of his position(yes, I'm assuming no lesbian action, shame though, as Valen looks pretty kinky sort of girl). Why can't we just make it so that Valen just wants to have sex? If I've understood correctly, people outside there in the real world(yes, there is one), have sex just for fun. Why Valen should have any deeper motives?

Hence a short recap:
a. Player can seduce/impress Valen to actually 'love' him. Maybe just by being really really evil(like killing kids and taking candies from their dead bodies and giving them to Valen)
b. Player can just have a physical relationship(this should be the easiest option)
c. Player can make Valen his (sex)slave(via fighting perhaps), which leads in to Valen deeply despising you, but who cares anyway, you ARE evil after all. And you get her without the pillow talk :D
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: HarvesterOfSorrow on March 31, 2004, 05:48:31 PM
aye carumba

 this isnt exactly a real life representation. and if you really require sex in a game you need to get out of your friggin cave more often. Anyways it doesnt matter to me really its more of the creators choice. But i doubt hes going to include your little fantasies in it...if he does   :wacko:  
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Mah on April 03, 2004, 11:44:14 AM
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aye carumba

 this isnt exactly a real life representation. and if you really require sex in a game you need to get out of your friggin cave more often. Anyways it doesnt matter to me really its more of the creators choice. But i doubt hes going to include your little fantasies in it...if he does   :wacko:
It's not really about 'my little fantasies'. If you are roleplaying evil, you should know that evil people do evil stuff...still following me? Now which one do you think someone really evil is more likely to do: carry a packet of roses to Valen or just take her?

Besides, have you even played the game? BG already has sex.
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Schatten on April 03, 2004, 05:27:10 PM
mah has a point there.

" and if you really require sex in a game you need to get out of your friggin cave more often."

huya. what do you mean with going out? there is no world outside my room, isnt there?
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: HarvesterOfSorrow on April 03, 2004, 06:53:55 PM
Yeah, BGII does have sex in it, I have played it obviously. Im just saying sure you could have the option of PC, being evil and all, do that stuff. But just saying you seem a little overly excitable with the raping and stuff. Well anyways Im not arguing about but im just saying youre points out. However Thorium makes his Valen expansion though i will still download it....

 EDIT: whoops. Valen, not Vanhalen.....
Title: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Mah on April 04, 2004, 01:59:46 PM
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Yeah, BGII does have sex in it, I have played it obviously. Im just saying sure you could have the option of PC, being evil and all, do that stuff. But just saying you seem a little overly excitable with the raping and stuff. Well anyways Im not arguing about but im just saying youre points out. However Thorium makes his Valen expansion though i will still download it....

 EDIT: whoops. Valen, not Vanhalen.....
This isn't really a matter of life and death to me and I don't get my kicks from text-based sexual action. I was merely presenting options that would be good to have, in case one would really want to RP evil. We want to have a versatile mod with several different ways to achieve ones goals, no? I guess I either presented my thoughts badly or you misinterpreted them. Glad that we agree on the fact that we 'could' have it as an option.

Peace. And carrots :)
Title: Re: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: St. Josephine on May 20, 2004, 10:45:53 PM
Piotyr

Rape is not good in any game unless it makes you die from trying to or after you do it. Its just morrallly wrong and over steping gaming bounds. And if you would really click that option that says "Rape her" You have a bit of a problem. Sorry just kinda had to add that.

Thorium Dragon

 I don't object to rape in an RPG on moral grounds, however, I just find the idea dull.

In my opinion, "evil" is a way of viewing the world and moving through it- not just a label you stick on a character as an excuse to do whatever the hell you want.

Evil leaders inspire loyalty in their followers by inspiring fear and dominating their will. Rape doesn't do either of that- it bypasses one's will completly, and will most likely serve to piss someone off more than fear you, or be loyal to you.

It gives the player no dialog, no psychology, nothing to figure out.

That seems pretty boring to me.

Kish

 Not to mention the matter of logistics. How do you rape someone who can turn into mist at will?

Urborg Vengrath

Rape is used by slavers(amongst others) to break/weaken a subject's will, inspire fear, show dominaince, and instill a worthlessness in the subject. It is often a tool in such cases and little more. I do not believe the PC would have a reason to rape any of his follower as they are all rather loyal. Then theres always inspinct and lust. It wouldn't be fitting to rape someone who has served you so well, a party member for example. A restrained enemy, a random peasant, sure. But those who are using their bodies as shields to defend you, your loyal servants(they might not realise it, but face the truth, that's all they ever where)? What fool would do that? I doubt someone as compitant as the PC would so short sited.
Now a Vampire from the Anne Rice Novels is no doubt differant than a D&D Vampire. Every RP and story has it's own varriation. No doubt any mundane creature would have to either be in love, seduced, or (in my case)have a morbid bent in order to be in any form of relationship with a Vampire that doesn't end is cold glares(at the least). There are many types of "romance" and many views of it's definition. I'm looking forwards to seeing how Thorium developes this relationship, however distant it might be. Personally I am pleased to have another villinious character to add to my group's roster. More content and detail to that character is welcome. From what I've read of your post(which is very little, to be honest) you have some interesting ideas for this expansion. I wonder how they will blend together.

Title: Re: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Hide and Seek on December 14, 2005, 11:31:50 AM
Evil leaders inspire loyalty in their followers by inspiring fear and dominating their will. Rape doesn't do either of that- it bypasses one's will completly, and will most likely serve to piss someone off more than fear you, or be loyal to you.
My thoughts exactly. Just look at Sarevok, I'm sure he used that method with most of his underlings.
And I don't think he raped anyone of his woman underlings. For an evil guy, he's beyond that, only his personal goal matters.

As for Valen, will you reduce her speed? I know, vampires move fast, but it became impossible after a while to keep her moving along the others. She killed more than 80% of the game's enemies as far as I got due to her speed (when the others catched up, at least half the enemy force was bye - bye) alone. But I like her level - drain claws, imagine those little babies with a powerful vampiric assassin.
Title: Re: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Ganner_Rhysode on January 13, 2006, 03:01:47 PM
I know it's been almost two years.. but what's now about this expansion? Is it finished, Thorium Dragon ? ist there some version to download up somewhere ?
Title: Re: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: Evaine Dian on January 15, 2006, 07:20:06 AM
No, it's not finished. Here's the link to the expansion's forum:

http://forums.spellholdstudios.net/index.php?showforum=198
Title: Re: Valen Expansion now in development
Post by: hamstermancer on January 31, 2006, 02:34:22 AM
I, for one, would not mind turning Valen into a cute love slave (a portrait like that... how can you resist?)  ;D