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Friends and Neighbors => Weimer Republic (WeiDU.org) => Valen => Topic started by: T.G.Maestro on April 15, 2003, 01:13:19 PM

Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: T.G.Maestro on April 15, 2003, 01:13:19 PM
Maybe it was discussed before (hell again, I'm lazy to look at it too much :huh:  :lol: ), but I think some changes could be done about her Final Death.
First of all, she is a Vampire, and not a simple Zombie. The later would really die the FD if killed, because of his undead shell is destroyed. But since Valen is a Vampire, it seems absolutely nonsense, that she simply DIES after struck down. In the "Final Re-balancing" thread people keep talkin about she should remain as she is, because any change on her would make her differ from a normal Vampire. Now, I'm asking, what's the dealk this time? Her Final Death is everything, but realistic. Noemally she should turn into gaseous form, and flee the area to recover somewhere safe.
Here comes a little idea (as I recall, it was already mentioned somewhere): is it possible, that every time she "dies" (as she reaches 1 Hp), she would turn into gas and disappear. After this she would respawn in the graveyard district, for example in one of the tombs (this one should be Valens tomb). If the party would like to get her back, you would only need to go to the Graveyards and ask her to rejoin.
I think this would make her character more interesting, and would solve the annoyance of her FD.

Comments?
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Guest on April 15, 2003, 01:16:40 PM
jep, sound good. but when valen remains in daylight and is about to die she should really die, i think.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Seifer on April 15, 2003, 01:20:12 PM
That does have a good foundation as Valen doesnt appear to have any type of crypt at all in the game.  However, the graveyard isnt always a viable option IMO as large parts of the game render this inacessible.

What may be a better option is adding a quest or whatever so she can establish a crypt in majot cities or parts of the game for instance, a tower in the Underdark etc.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: T.G.Maestro on April 15, 2003, 01:30:12 PM
Good idea Seifer.
-In Amn, the Graveyard should suffice (the tomb with the Shadow Fiends and the Mummy would fit her perfect)
-In Brynnlaw there could be a tomb in the courteesans hideout.
-In the Sahaugin city her tomb could be placed in the Sea Zombie Lord lair.
-In the Underdark the collapsed Swirfneblin tunnel would be fine.
-In Saradush the Vampire tunnels are ideal.
-In Amkethran you could use Vangoethe's lair.
 
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Guest on April 15, 2003, 01:30:20 PM
hmmmm.... a coffin she carrys with her.
in the first chapter it is in the graveyard, then when she moves to the underdark she can carry it with her. then until underdark, death means death cause the coffin isnt placed anywhere. in the underdark she can place it in the lair of the dragon or in the snirf village.
yeah, okay, stupid idea. why not place the coffin somewhere before any fight.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: T.G.Maestro on April 15, 2003, 01:31:42 PM
Read my suggestions above ;)  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Guest on April 15, 2003, 01:33:16 PM
upsi. ;-)
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: T.G.Maestro on April 20, 2003, 11:47:44 AM
Any "official" comments? Could these things be made, or is it only a (bad :) ) dream?
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: necro on April 21, 2003, 08:37:39 AM
yeah, i think this is implementable. perhaps the master could answer, please. ;-)
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Thorium Dragon on September 20, 2003, 11:30:22 AM
Perhaps instead of a grave to retreat to upon being "killed", she could retreat to a magical urn the PC carries. The urn can be reopened in a couple of days and Valen reforms.

This would solve the exploit of monsters persistently attacking the unkillable gaseous form. This penalizes the player for allowing her to "die" as she would be unavailable for a time.

Also, if it happens often enough, Valen could get annoyed with the PC, leave the party, attack the PC, ect.
 
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: T.G.Maestro on September 22, 2003, 08:09:24 AM
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Perhaps instead of a grave to retreat to upon being "killed", she could retreat to a magical urn the PC carries. The urn can be reopened in a couple of days and Valen reforms.

This would solve the exploit of monsters persistently attacking the unkillable gaseous form.
A good idea, but it won't do anything with the gaseous form ability, since it is triggered when Valen gets hurt too badly, not when she is already dead.
Summoning her from the urn could be a 1/day ability.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Thorium Dragon on September 22, 2003, 11:50:35 AM
Could a script could be written to have Valen, upon being reduced to 1 hp, turn gaseous, move to the PC's location and/or then dissappear?

I imagine it could be, as I've seen these things occur separatly throughout the game.

If this were implemented I would say she would have to spend at least 3 days in the urn "healing" until she can reform again.  (You have to give the PC some penalty for getting her "killled" <note quotes>  ;)  )  
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Schatten on September 23, 2003, 09:34:06 AM
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Could a script could be written to have Valen, upon being reduced to 1 hp, turn gaseous, move to the PC's location and/or then dissappear?

I imagine it could be, as I've seen these things occur separatly throughout the game.

If this were implemented I would say she would have to spend at least 3 days in the urn "healing" until she can reform again.  (You have to give the PC some penalty for getting her "killled" <note quotes>  ;)  )
good idea and it is doable.
perhaps you can script it like a familiar when it jumps in your backpack. but 3days is way to much. 1day should be sufficient.
"but it won't do anything with the gaseous form ability, since it is triggered when Valen gets hurt too badly, not when she is already dead"
you can modify that. just modify the trigger to when she has only 1 hp like the enemy vamps.

but i fear the great master wont answer to it. :(
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Grim Squeaker on September 23, 2003, 11:08:00 AM
You could have her reform at night fall.  If its already night then have her return a couple of hours later.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Necrontyr on October 05, 2003, 09:16:39 AM
The urn could be full of earth from whereever she was sired. I think that's the myth anyway (that vamp's coffin's contain earth from them home).
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Auvrin on October 05, 2003, 10:48:25 PM
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But 3days is way to much. 1day should be sufficient.

I agree with the 3 days actually.  Teaches people to be more careful with their characters.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: reiella on October 06, 2003, 04:00:05 PM
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But 3days is way to much. 1day should be sufficient.

I agree with the 3 days actually.  Teaches people to be more careful with their characters.
Although, on that, you have the odd balancing act of something being just pest/inconvienance versus "Enough of a trouble to bother to reload".

The big reason Valen's Final Death doesn't end up being much of a 'balance' issue is because people will quite easily reload if that situation occurs (although it is still a loss of time).

1 day would probably see a bit more 'use' than 3 days is my point :).
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Auvrin on October 06, 2003, 06:26:03 PM
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1 day would probably see a bit more 'use' than 3 days is my point


Then I guess that point doesn't matter, because most of those people that would reload do it anyways when a character dies.  :rolleyes:  
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Schatten on October 07, 2003, 04:22:45 AM
if it takes three days for her to recover i would surely reload. if it is only 1 day it isnt so much of a bother. :)
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: HardenCoonor on October 20, 2003, 09:35:35 AM
Why thinking about days? Maybe the PC has to get hold of something innocent, a child or a neutral bystander to get Valen back, or back faster.  Maybe some dialog-option with the urn, where Valen/the urn randomly chooses a kind of creature(man, elf, orc, silver dragon, whatever) to be sacrificed to get Valen back.

If days, 2 or 3 would make sense to me, with Valen being greyed out(dead party member) to prevent exploits e.g. wit hthe paladin's quests.

The gaseous form would turn to that person in battle that has the urn, and when reaching that person, it disappears, dropping all items Valen was carrying. The urn should be like Boo to Minsc, hardlinked (to the PC), maybe droppable if the PC is really mean, something like

1. I open the urn and the dust of Valen's immortal body falls to the ground.
2. Talk to Valen in the urn.

if 2 -> Valen: I need the blood of 3 Kuo-Toa or some icecream to heal my wounds.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Thorium Dragon on October 20, 2003, 05:22:43 PM
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... Maybe the PC has to get hold of something innocent, a child or a neutral bystander to get Valen back, or back faster.  Maybe some dialog-option with the urn, where Valen/the urn randomly chooses a kind of creature(man, elf, orc, silver dragon, whatever) to be sacrificed...
Sounds a bit complex, I think.

I proposed the urn solution to overcome the obstacles of her dying in, say, the Abyss where her grave is unreachable.  Having to kill a kuo-tua would recreate this problem if the character was finished with the Underdark.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: HardenCoonor on October 24, 2003, 10:21:27 AM
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Sounds a bit complex, I think.

Definetly. It was meant to. And Kuo Toa you can always find in the underdark. They spawn again and again. Even in the area where you can access Suldanessalar you can find them.

And killing a specific creature is maybe just to get her back faster, not needed to get her back at all. Maybe with creature instantly, without creature 10 or more days. Unfortunately bg2 and soa are not that time-sensitive, so waiting for 10 days is affordable without suffering penalties in battles, group-members leaving or similar things.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: T.G.Maestro on October 31, 2003, 06:43:16 AM
Anyway, the debate is pointless unless there is someone (other than the author) who can implement these changes. Valen mod won't be changed by Weimer in the future I guess.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Schatten on October 31, 2003, 04:11:09 PM
true. its really sad bvecause here are some good ideas. :(
it seems none of wes mods get any changes besides bug fixes. :(
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Auvrin on October 31, 2003, 11:21:05 PM
Sola has gotten a great deal of changes.  I personally wouldn't blame him for not responding to every single person who decides to suggest changing his mods all together and/or adding a great deal more to them.

It shouldn't be expected for someone who made something of their own accord, own free time, and own ideas, to alter/add/extend their mods by request of people who paid nothing for it.  Bug fixing is an added bonus, and THAT shouldn't even be expected.  I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, but well.. That's how you said it.

He's got a life, and from what has been said, he's aiming for a PHD.  That is by no means easy, and not something a person would want to blow off to make other people they don't even know happy.

Again, free is free.  Don't insult a gift giver, wether it was intended or not.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: T.G.Maestro on November 01, 2003, 01:48:53 AM
First fo all Auvrin, there is a great  difference between insults and creative suggestions. Before going on some crusade against supporters of a mod, one should always consider, that some of the projects wouldn't be on the same class, or even complete without them.
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I personally wouldn't blame him for not responding to every single person who decides to suggest changing his mods
But responding to NONE of them is slightly different, don't you think? ;) I would call that "abandoned/finished project", total lack of time, or dismissal.
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It shouldn't be expected for someone who made something of their own accord, own free time, and own ideas, to alter/add/extend their mods by request of people who paid nothing for it
Nope, not true at all. Most modders make their modifications for the communitiy as well. If one wouldn't been interested in sharing/discussing his projects with other players, he wouldn't come to these forums. Remember, these forums are called "MOD DISCUSSION, BUG REPORTING, FUTURE SUGGESTIONS" and so on. As I've said 75% of all mods wouldn't have such quality and complexity without all the fans and supporters.
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He's got a life, and from what has been said, he's aiming for a PHD.
And that is completely allright, no problem with that one. If you read those posts again (and a bit more thoroughly) you will notice that most posts and topics are about suggestions instead of "insults" as you put it.
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Again, free is free. Don't insult a gift giver, wether it was intended or not
Since there were no insults (at least I haven't noticed any <_< ) this debate should be closed as well.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Schatten on November 01, 2003, 09:44:19 AM
maestro said it all.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Auvrin on November 01, 2003, 05:39:15 PM
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Anyway, the debate is pointless unless there is someone (other than the author) who can implement these changes. Valen mod won't be changed by Weimer in the future I guess.

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true. its really sad because here are some good ideas.
it seems none of wes mods get any changes besides bug fixes.

I think those alone prove all my points, and my opinion remains very concrete.  As I said, I doubt they were intended as insults, though you twisted my words saying I called them direct insults.

None of those comments that were quoted above were warranted, or even needed.  You're right though, these forums are about mod development, and bug reporting, and all are very free to express their opinions, as I'm doing so now.

However, alot of people continue to forget that none of these mods would have ever been made, or offered up to the community without the self sacrifice of another person.  You may not find those above quoted comments insulting, and again since you twisted my words before, I'm sure you didn't mean it as such, but I for one do.  Think of it as though someone has made you a gift, and you then complain that the gift is flawed in some fashion.  True, this place is meant to report those flaws, but there is nothing stating that any mod maker HAS to fix, change, or add to their mod.   By all means, support the projects you enjoy, offer encouragement, report the bugs, and throw in your ideas.  The above comments aren't needed however.

The only time my opinion in this matter will EVER change is if payment is required for a mod.  Even these forums are in place out of Neil's kindness, which he even no doubt puts money into out of his own pocket.  Nothing about, on, or even within these forums should ever receive those kinds of feedback.   Though you are correct on one matter, however, and that's leaving this discussion off the forum and taken up in private rather then spamming everyone else.
Title: Valen's Final Death
Post by: T.G.Maestro on November 03, 2003, 03:54:59 AM
Wasn't try to twist your words, believe me.
The truth is, both of us have some valid points in this one, so I'll leave this one as it is right now. No need for arguing over a "dead" project.
Title: Re: Valen's Final Death
Post by: azrendelmare on October 16, 2006, 12:51:44 PM
From Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual [ver 3.0]:
"Simply reducing a vampire's hit points to 0 or below incapacitates but doesn't destroy it."

There certainly is something to be said for re-working this, but it doesn't seem too nesicary.
Title: Re: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Moooos on January 23, 2007, 07:19:05 AM
Not sure why I'm even bothering to write this, as (as has been done to death above), nothing is going to happen about it, but...

The solution seems obvious - Valen is a vampire and therefore cannot properly die (within reason).  Equally, to have her unkillable is too much.  She therefore needs some penalty when dying.  The whole concept of waiting 1 or 3 days is flawed, as parties will simply rest through the time (or ctrl-T).  How about an xp penalty?  Nothing too draconian, or people will simply reload:

Each time Valen is killed (properly), she disappears for a limited period (2d4 rounds) and when she reappears, she is as good as new, but has 50,000 xp less.
Title: Re: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Sad onlooker on January 27, 2007, 03:08:21 AM
Gawd, just make her a half or neophyte (new) vampire to explain her mortality.
Title: Re: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Arcalian on February 08, 2007, 12:57:18 AM
Or, you could just relaod from your last save. ;D

I've been doing that since long before the Valen mod, myself. ;)


PS the mod is awesome.
Title: Re: Valen's Final Death
Post by: Mith the Godling on February 24, 2007, 09:57:57 PM
Is it possible just to get a rod that restores her to life, but give it a limited charge? That way you can still bring her back to life if you screw up, but you still have to be careful.>>
Title: Re: Valen's Final Death
Post by: -kamui- on February 06, 2010, 09:23:39 AM
If im not wrong, its not the mod choice to valen always die, but i read something about being a problem with the infinity engine, that a undead script to a character always die the final death when killed, maybe i'm wrong, maybe not.