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Friends and Neighbors => Weimer Republic (WeiDU.org) => Valen => Topic started by: T.G.Maestro on March 31, 2003, 03:03:19 PM
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So. After many months and many new versions of Valen, having her in the party STILL delivers some MAJOR blows on the game-play. There is no need for a larger disussion: she starts overpowered, she becomes later even more overpowered, until she reaches almost god-like status, easily making the other NPCs and often the PC laughable. She has some disadvantages -most of them very interesting and quite a good idea- but they hardly make her more balanced. I took my time and revised this great character to make her an equal party member - one that fits in every evil party without killing all the fun in the game.
1.: Valen's claws
Problems: A Vampire's claw works pretty fine in the game, but it wasn't meant to be used by PCs or NPCs. Normally they are fist-weapons, without giving any THAC0 bonuses (even Bodhi's +5 hand doesn't give her any THAC0 bonus!). Valen has great THAC0 and this one combined with her hand's improving THAC0 bonus makes her a level-draining tank. Not to mention: Vampires doesn't have any proficiency bonuses on their hands - instead of this Valen's hands use Grand Mastery.
Possible solution:I re-made her claws, so now they improve as follows:
-hand1: +1 when determining what it can hit, deals 1D6+1, drains 1 level;
-hand2: +2 when determining what it can hit, deals 1D6+2, drains 1 level;
-hand3: +2 when determining what it can hit, deals 1D6+2, drains 2 levels;
-hand4: +3 when determining what it can hit, deals 1D6+3, drains 2 levels;
-hand5: +4 when determining what it can hit, deals 1D6+4, drains 3 levels.
The main point is, that now these items don't use the dagger proficiency (not very logical, Monks doesn't use that prof. either) and don't give ANY bonuses on THAC0 (similar to the original Vampire-claws in-game). This way they hit less often (an average 5 points loss compared to her original overpowering THAC0) and this makes them much more tactical. If you need good THAC0, you'll have to use daggers instead of her claws, or dual-wield them with other weapons. It works pretty fine on my computer.
2.: Valen's immunities
Problems: just as her claws, her immunities make her almost invincible later on. They are somewhat high.
Possible soultion: I made her somewhat vulnerable to piercing wepons (due to the fact, that Vampires can be killed easiliy by thrusting a spear or something else through their heart) which fades as she gains levels as a Vampire. Her elemental resistances were lowered a bit as well.
3.: Valen's movement speed
Problem: she moves EXTREMELY fast, and that is without Boots of Speed(!!!). This is unbalanced as well, most Vampires don't move that fast in the game - not even Bodhi at Ascension. She can be hasted to lightning-speed by using Improved Haste.
Possible Solution: I gave her a progress in her movement speed instead simply making her to move 2x faster then normally.
-1.: 120% movement speed;
-2: 140% movement speed;
-3: 160% movement speed;
-4: 180% movement speed.
This way her movement progress is much more realistic and believeable.
4.: Gaseous Form
Problem: this ability grants her safe regeneration, and this improves as she levels up.
Possible Solution: at lower levels this ability shouldn't last long, and the rate of regeneration should be lower as well. The Gaseous Form should be more vulnerable to fire and magic. The resistances could improve with the levels.
I know, this is a great change, but I positively believe that this way Valen would be much more fun, and much more balanced. She will fit in BG2 and ToB perfectly.
(Every change mentioned above was already tested by me, and I found them very balanced. Valen is now more difficult to play, but with good tactical choices she is still a powerhouse)
Any opinions and comments would be appreciated.
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Sorry, this topic was planned for the Valen forum.
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Sounds good, moved.
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That would actually get me to download her. The only reason I've never downloaded Valen is because of her overpowerment. That and the sunlight stuff. My thought instead is what every other vampire does.... turn into a bat.
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Yes, turning into a bat would seem a good idea, however I question its usefulness. I don't really know, but I don't think too many of us used Bodhi's "Shapechange: Bat" ability at the end of ToB Ascension...
Weimer, if You are around somewhere, please share your thoughts with me about these changes! That is if you want to spare any more time on this project, of course.
However, I'm still waiting any other comments on this topic!
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to mention: Vampires doesn't have any proficiency bonuses on their hands - instead of this Valen's hands use Grand Mastery.
Could you rephrase this comment so that it is a little clearer?
The main point is, that now these items don't use the dagger proficiency (not very logical, Monks doesn't use that prof.
It think it is very logical to use the dagger prof (or really, the small blade prof from 3E) for this sort of thing. Although the rose picture doesn't show it you can easily imagine Valen's claws being two or three inches long, aboute the size (when her fingers are extended) of a dagger or knife.
Problems: just as her claws, her immunities make her almost invincible later on. They are somewhat high.
Counter-point: They are exactly the same as those of every other vampire.
Counter-point: Her immunities are actually *not important at all* later on. Later on you can read pro-cold scrols and cast chaotic commands on everyone. It's *early on* that her immunities are so powerful!
heart) which fades as she gains levels as a Vampire. Her elemental resistances were lowered a bit as well.
This doesn't make sense from a game perspective. It only makes sense from an "outside the game I think Valen is too strong" perspective. Other vamps don't have these weird lower resistances or problems with spears (although I think spears and crossbow bolts should do extra damage to vamps -- they don't).
Problem: she moves EXTREMELY fast, and that is without Boots of Speed(!!!). This is unbalanced as well, most Vampires don't move that fast in the game - not even Bodhi at
I disagree. Most vampires *do* move that fast in the game. Go into Bodhi's lair and Ctrl-Q one of them into your party.
This way her movement progress is much more realistic and believeable.
? I'm not sure what you are talking about. It is more balanced compared to existing party members. It is more "realistic" when compared to, say, Vampire: The Masquerade (imagine an elder gaining dots in Celerity as time goes by). However, it is not "realistic" compared to BG2. It is neither more nor less "believable" than the original (actually, I'd go with less, since no other vampire behaves that way).
If you look closely at the game CRE files (have you?) you'll see that they included many different "age levels" of vampires, from fledgling to ancient to eminant (or whatnot). You can see their stats go up over time. Valen's stats follow the same progression.
These already-coded examples of vampire age levels in 2E/BG2 do not show the vampires getting faster or gaining resistances over time. It might be realistic in another game system (V:tM, say). Nothing in 2E/BG2 seems to support it.
Possible Solution: at lower levels this ability shouldn't last long, and the rate of regeneration should be lower as well. The
Are you aware that this is already the case? Her gaseous form regeneration rate starts out slow and increases with "age".
Gaseous Form should be more vulnerable to fire and magic.
It has the same resistances as every other gaseous form in the game.
I know, this is a great change, but I positively believe that this way Valen would be much more fun, and much more balanced. She will fit in BG2 and ToB perfectly.
I will agree that your proposed changes would make Valen *weaker*. They would certainly make her "more like the other party members". However, it is important to note that as described your changes are actually quite arbitrary. Even if you believe she will fit "perfectly", I'm sure others will disagree.
Basically, I think you are selling your changes the wrong way. They are not "more realistic" or "more believable" than what is already there. They are, however, good at making Valen weaker so that she won't dominate party combat. Giving her variable elemental resistances (and whatnot) comes out of nowhere -- no one else in the game (and certainly not the other vampires!) does anything like that (see ToB H'D for a fun exception). However, you shouldn't care. In my opinion, what you should be saying is something like this:
Weimer gave Valen all fo the same powers and resistances as a normal vampire (e.g., immunity to charm, level-draining, speed). He also gave her the same stat increases as a normal vampire. However, he failed to take into account the fact that Valen (unlike normal vampires) gains levels and thief abilities. Normal Vampires in BG2 never increase their THAC0, hit points, attacks per round or saving throws. Valen can increase them all dramatically by the end of the game. Normal Vampires in BG2 never wear magical items. Valen can put quite a few of them on. Thus, even though it doesn't make any game-consistency sense to limit Valen's abilities when compared to other vampires, since Weimer has already given her this incredible power (= level advancement) compared to other vampires it does make *game balance* sense. Given that, I propose making Valen weaker in the following unique ways: ...
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Hmm. I tried implementing the changes on Valen's claws you suggested to see how they performed.
When I changed her Claws from daggers to hand-to-hand weapons, I was no longer able to equip them.
However, when I edited them into Valen's primary weapon slot, the Claws still disappear and reappear in her inventory, leaving me unable to equip them again.
Makiing the Claws undroppable didn't help.
How did you get around this? Or are you having to edit the Claws into Valen's weapon slots every so often, too?
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It think it is very logical to use the dagger prof (or really, the small blade prof from 3E) for this sort of thing. Although the rose picture doesn't show it you can easily imagine Valen's claws being two or three inches long, aboute the size (when her fingers are extended) of a dagger or knife.
Would you say Valen's claws should, perhaps, do slashing damage? They seem to to blunt damage, which I thought was a bit of a puzzler.
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Thank you all for the comments.
Weimer:
I think your point is somehow wrong here. I know that this is your mod (and a masterpiece I must add) and I agree with almost every word you said about the changes, but you are missing the most obvious fact. Most forums on Valen doesn't consist of topics like: ooh, she is so balanced; yes, she is absolutely equal compared to my other party members; she makes the game much more fun at higher levels... no. They say: she is overpowered, she unbalances the game, she makes other NPCs to look like some whelps, she kills bosses with ease and otherwise very difficult encounters terribly easy.. Don't you think there IS a need for changes? And I'm positive that this time the "Don't download it, if you don't like it" answer wouldn't be the brightest choice. Look, I'm not trying to "sell" my suggestions or ideas at all. I'm simply trying to make this very-very interesting NPC (clearly one of the best) more enjoyable for playres who prefer challanges to power-gaming.
-Proficiencies on claws: I examined .cre files for quite a long time, and I still believe most creatures DON'T use the proficiency bonuses to their weapon (hands, claws, and other undroppable items). Valen has the bonuses of GM, and so she receives bonuses to THAC0 and damage, not to mention speed and attack number. Other Vampires doesn't use this feat. And yes, just as you said, they don't use powerful magic items as well. Valen has better THAC0 in the middle of the game than the Vampire-Mistress Bodhi. Do you think this is realistic in BG2? I think not. She should never have the SAME stats as Bodhi (just in ToB perhaps) and the fact that she fights WAY better is somewhat funny. By removing the use of the dagger-proficiency and the THAC0 bonuses from the claws, she wouldn't become weaker. She will have the same scores as other Vamires of her level.
Bodhi's claws:
To Hit: +4
THAC0 bonus: 0, and no GM on daggers or anything else
Damage: 1D6 +4 (+ strength bonus)
-Resistances: Yes they are the same as other Vampires, but other Vamps don't buff with magic items and potions.
-Movement speed: yes, other Vampires move just as fast, but they still don't use Boots of Speed and Improved Haste. Major difference. And that immense speed combined with her crazy THAC0 makes her everything but a realistic Vampire.Again, do not mistake her with non-playable Vamires. They work and behave totally different. There IS a need for balancing.
-Gaseous Form: it is a nice thing that this ability is "weaker" at lower levels and has the same resistances as other Gaseous Form abilities, but this doesn't make it more balanced. Normally Vampires use is when they are at Near Death, and not when Injured and they don't regenerate and attack again: they FLEE. It makes a big difference. This ability was meant to help Vamps safely escape dangerous situations. And making her mist form more vulnerable to fire (50% resistance) and magic damage (75%) doesn't makes her "weak", it simply gives her a weak point in her unblemished defense. She could use it only when 'Near Death' and its regeneration rate and resistances should be reduced in every level.
And once again, please don't get these suggestions as "open attack". There is a problem: she is too strong and her "weaknesses" won't make her any more balanced. This should be solved, but it is only YOUR choice. Please reconsider your thoughts about this.
Tancred:
You should only edit her claws proficiency type with IEEP. Leave the paper doll and item type parameters as they are. And yes, they are blunt weapons, just as any other Vampire claws.
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In my opinion, what you should be saying is something like this:
huh. I guess everyone can have an opinion. :P
If her claws, and other vampires, do blunt damage wouldn't that be indicative of a fist attack?
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And one more thing I forgot:
Why the expensive starting equipment? Normally NPCs start with a few items, maybe one or two special magic item. Instead of this Valen starts out wearing Helmet of Defense, perhaps one of the best helmets available in SoA, a bunch of throwing daggers (they are virtually useless, when you have her dreaded claws - I wonder who uses them?). She has very powerful Strength modifying potions (one of the most expensive tipe in the game), Boots os Stealth (which you normally get from Mae'Var - in the upgraded version a formidable foe indeed), nice bracers, plus her special armor, which somehow gives GREAT bonuses to AC (Valen's AC reaches incredible hights during the game, if you give her the right tools - the armor alone is better enchanted than any other Studded Leather or Leather armor in SoA. I think this isn't necessary).
Now how do I propose this... [_[ :D ...:
Why gave you her so powerful starting equipment? She definetely won't need them to survive. My suggestion is that she shall have only her armor (its AC reduced somewhat, maybe 2 points), her claw, 5 potion of invisibility, the bracers, and maybe the boots. But the 5 potions of Extra healing, the 5 potions of Storm Giant strength, the Helmet of Defense and the daggers aren't needed at all. Not for a starting NPC, I mean, no matter how powerful she/he is.
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my changes you can see in the other thread. i think its not a good idea to change the res or other stats that the other vampires have also. so i think my changes are in the current state of my game well balanced. btw korgan has 55% or more kills and valen only 40% or something. and korgan received all the goddies. ;-)
iirc a vampire can only be hit by +1 or better weapons has an ac of 1 and thac0 of 11. they do not lose their abilities they have in life. cold and electr spells inflict only half damage. they regen 3hp/round.
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I agree with the resistances, they should stay untouched.
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I think Valen has serious weaknesses:
-she has low hp and not so great AC in my opinion, and she can't be resurrected, thus she can get definitively killed in two or three hits;
-even worse, you don't control her attacks, she will ruin your tactics by throwing herself on that big armored fighter in the front row that mauls her in one round rather than quickly slaying the mages and alike like a kensai-like charater should do.
-she is useless on one/fourth of the game (in daylight) where she can't be used as a fighter and not even as a thief.
-she gets killed by your OWN turn undead/ false dawn/ sunlight if you try to use it against undead.
-she gets you in some fights you don't want to engage (like the guards in gov district) and may even ruin some quests (think of those dragon eggs you went so much trouble to get, and think of their angry mama)
So in my opinion, Valen is a powerhouse, but she has downsides, especially considered on how BG2 is il-fitted for evil parties (compared to Fallout2 for example);The great thing is, those downsides will not only balance her, but also give her a great badass vampire attitude, and in my opinion Valen greatly enhances the roleplay, she doesn't need to be nerfed.
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-correct. dont you reload the battle when valen dies? ;-)
-no, just move her to the target and she will attack that.
-jep, but no big deal. the hard fights are not in sunlight. and she can turn to mist.
-correct
-for the most, yes, before some encounters you can kick her out. ;-)
perhaps you can give her more undroppable equipment like her armor for balance issues?
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I know, she has several weaknesses (the annoying kind, most of them), but they won't help the main problem: If she kills ToB's bosses in 5-6 hit without being hurt (if you move her around with Haste), well...
About the weaknesses: they are fantastic! I've found them absolutely perfect, very good ideas! I liked it very much that she changes many quests, and attacks innocent people, and even possible allies. My only concern is that in combat she still has overpowered stats and abilities, and behaves like a Vampire god - she could even beat Bodhi with the right tactics, which should be very-very impossible, since Bodhi is an Ancient Vampire mistress (even without Tactics Mod).
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Tancred:
You should only edit her claws proficiency type with IEEP. Leave the paper doll and item type parameters as they are. And yes, they are blunt weapons, just as any other Vampire claws.
Aaah... I'm being too literal. Ok. You can tell I'm new to this, I'm sure. Heh! Thanks, Maestro. We'll see how things go...
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Have fun! B)
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but by the end of SoA didn't valen get a high rank to,
You know, Bodhi was just laying on her behind and just trudging a little bit around while valen was actively busy sucking blood out of her opposites --> becomming stronger and stronger.
wouldn't it be logical that she would get that kind of power. And normally vampires don't take on people they know are stronger then theirselves on their own,. except when they are forced by someone stronger then themselve"for instance Melissan" or when they are curious"Irenicus" or attacked on own grounds"other cases".
and couldn't it be that valen thinks she is ready to get her, and she surely knows with a group like the one of the bhaalspawn backing her up she will get a lot off people to feed on and be able to progress faster in the ranks of matriarch then it would be possible in the normal way?
cheers
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i think valen gets only her second upgrade or third upgrade during the corse of bg. so she is a mature or elder vamp and bodhi has a higher rank as the guild mistress.
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Bodhi's not the sort to sit around. Both Bodhi herself, if you side with her, and Irenicus' journal make reference to her love for being part of the action herself (not to mention the whole thing where she sets you free in the maze with your equipment so she can play The Most Dangerous Game with you).
Valen can definitely reach Eminent rank, and Matriarch rank if you have enough of Wes' other mods, before facing Bodhi.
-she gets killed by your OWN turn undead/ false dawn/ sunlight if you try to use it against undead.
Sunray doesn't target friendlies, not even friendly vampires. Viconia's Turn Undead won't hurt her, and neither will that of an evil PC cleric.
But just so that my position isn't misunderstood, I agree with the people who say she doesn't need to be changed. Being incredibly powerful is part of the point of Valen.
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are you sure about that? Matriarch rank? then you must play alot in the city and waiting for lots of encounters to reach such high ranks? or am i wrong?
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I got her to level 5 vampire powers about some times after the bodhi battle I recall , but I did nearly everything in the game (except for the two bottom levels of Watcher's keep), and I think I used the Solamnics knights quest bug to get extra exp
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Whast ranks can Valen actually acheive in the scope of the game, modded or otherwise?
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Instead of tweaking Valen, how about making a tactics component for the mod. Make the enemy use anti undead tactics if Valen is in your party: have clerics cast sunray, equip the odd character with holy water, even a protection from undead scroll(should be part of any veteran adventurers kit), or even have a cleric or two turn undead! Lets see how overpowered Valen is when an evil cleric controlls her and she turns on your party!
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Good ideas, samuel. to do this for ALL enemies is too much work, but a few choosen should be no problem.
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I'm not sure if this is doable, but this might be a way to make her more balanced without changing any of her essentials.
What if she has an XP penalty? That is, what if she loses 10% (or something) of all experience she earns? That would represent that she's more powerful than the party, and therefore any kill would be less work for her, and it also resolves her getting power from levelling up without having to worry about making her 'weaker' than the other vamps in the game.
Thoughts?
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I'll pitch in on this one, too. Valen is indeed mighty, because she is a vampire. Change her powers, and she is no longer truly a vampire. I think she has more than enough drawbacks to make up for her power. Unlike everyone else in your party, Valen can TRULY die. She is only useful underground or at night. A very nasty party converges to slay her, and you with her, subsequently dropping your reputation by 2 points per slayer killed IIRC. She will act on her own, pushing you to play your evil character as EVIL, possibly screwing things up for your good/neutral character. Your selectable party member list shrinks when she is around (Keldorn, Mazzy, and Good Anoweenie I'm sure can't travel with her). Yes, monstrously powerful, but still sorta balanced.
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I must add something, for everyone seems to miss the fact while saying: "making her 'weaker' than the other vamps", or "Valen is indeed mighty, because she is a vampire. Change her powers, and she is no longer truly a vampire". This is wrong. In several occasions she is MUCH MORE powerful than other Vampires of her level and age. I'm not talking about resistances, or anything else. And I'm absolutely not talking about making her powers weaker than those of other Vamps. I'm simply thinking that she should be equally powerful than the others.
The main example is her THAC0. In one of my recent posts I've already pointed out that her THAC0 works waaay differently than that of her kind. Normally Vampires doesn't get any THAC0 bonuses on their weapons (their claws). They are undroppable magical items, and are enchanted when determining what they can hit, but they won't give them any THAC0 bonuses. Besides (as I've said before) they DON'T use the adiitional bonuses from the dagger proficiency! (THAC0, damage, speed and attack number bonuses). Hell if I'm wrong, but these abilities don't make Valen more like another "Vampire". They make her a level-draining juggernaught. I think this sounds reasonable.
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My main problem with Valen is her level draining ablility is too high, so she able to kill very quickly. Too quickly.
I think even 3 levels is a bit much. I would say 2 levesl is sufficient. I agree that as a vampire grows old, the power increase. But Valen doesn't age that quickly while with the party.
I also consider changing the additional encounters mod to include a high level cleric. This then makes having Valen more of challenge. Valen is good against mages and fighters but against a high level cleric ? Interesting.
Just my opinion.
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In addition to this:
While probably someone could reply that the level draining abilities progress in the same way than that of other vampires (didn't check), the difference is the use of protections:
Just how many of us walk into a fight with vampires without using MoD+2, Amulet of Power or casting Immunity from level drain? Very few, I guess. Or remove the level drain from a fighter during combat? The game gives the player a chance to cope with level drain because it knows that he'll encounter vampires.
However, the enemies simply don't take into account that the player also could use level draining attacks. Just how many enemies can and do protect themselves from it?
Valen is something the designers simply didn't plan for, that's one aspect of her being overpowered.
I don't know about P&P AD&D and how common protection from level drain is there, but to make things more "realistic", I guess the possibility to protect against Valen's attack should be given to a lot of foes - or, if that is too complicated to achieve, turn down her level drain somewhat to simulate that.
In a more general way, I think Maestro has a point in his remarks.
in BG2, there is some difference between party characters and "monsters" like vampires - the party levels and can equip itself. Vampires don't, which is somewhat unusual. The difference is not that big when turning into, say, a rat - rats don't wear magical rings, either. But vampires should be able to equip armour etc., which leads to Valen's ability to do it - unlike the other of her kind, where (in my opinion) the effects of items are simply taken into their stats, without actually equipping them.
If Valen should be like the other vampires, she shouldn't be able to equip items - not a very popular solution, I fear. Or the other way round - adjust her stats that she reaches the power of e.g. Lassal only when wearing equipment equal to that Lassal would wear (but doesn't).
Hrmpf. Rather longwinded, and probably not very clear. Sorry.
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At last! Someone begins to see what I keep talking about! [_[ Neeeh, just joking :lol: !
But what Caswallon said is true. Valen is everything but a normal Vampire. She "cheats" a lot by using different THAC0, abilities, AC, magic items, spells and potions. And once again: I'M NOT TELLING ALL THIS BECAUSE I LOVE TO CRITICISE. I just like it when things work as they should.
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okay, with THAC0, damage, speed and attack number bonuses, you are right.
so we come to the conclusion to change this and her lvl drain and perhaps to make a few more items undroppable. what do you think? and when she advances THAC0, damage, speed and attack number bonuses, claw and armor will be increased and perhaps the other undroppable items as well.
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Turning into quita a good one this isnt it? I'll add my element now.
The issue of Valen vs other vampires is interesting but it is overlooking several points;
1) The weakness of the IE engine itself is that it is protagonist based. In this element alone Valen is going to have more continuity then other vampires as she will be an ever present in some parties, usually evil ones! To counter this issue itself would mean re (hard) coding the IE engine and levelling up enemies either through experience or higher CRE's then before.
2) Going back to the Kit issue, is there a basis for comparison on how a vampire should level up, let alone a dual classed one? Kit bonuses etc will apply to valen that arent really applicable to other Vampires. Once these have been taken from Valen and we cross compare stats there is still no way of knowing how a normal Vampire would level up in IE terms.
3) I argree with TG on the issue of time, for so short, Valen can become stronger then Bohdi, not realistic in my point.
4) Last of all, if the level drain is annoying people, then just dont use it...!
Seif
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"we come to the conclusion to change this and her lvl drain and perhaps to make a few more items undroppable. what do you think? and when she advances THAC0, damage, speed and attack number bonuses, claw and armor will be increased and perhaps the other undroppable items as well."
-Sounds perfect.
" if the level drain is annoying people, then just dont use it...!"
-Right, but dropping the claws wouldn't make her too interesting. Look, as I've said before, my problem is not the fact that she is using level-draining claws as a weapon! On the contrary this and several other abilities make Valen a fascinating NPC. I only asked for a bit revision and more game balance.
Thank You all out there!
TGM
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The biggest differance between Valen and other Vampires is that Valen has a class and levels with the party. Your typical Vampire doesn't leave his/her lair except to feed, while Valen runs around killing dragons and such. The problem as I see it is really any change will cripple her usefulness as an NPC. The harder, "boss" type, enemies could be immune to level drain, which would significantly weaken her, but that would make her nigh useless in large fights. She has very few hitpoints, thus she will spend the majority of most fights either chunked or in gaseous form. Undroppable claws cause severe problems. Thac0 bonuses and such come from her classes, remove those and once again you cripple her. How long would, say, Lassal last in your party in ToB? My guess is he wouldn't outlive the siege on Saradush if you took him as-is. There is a delicate balance with Valen, push it too far one way, and you have an invulnerable killing-machine, the other way, and you have someone even more useless than Aerie. At this point, I have serious doubts that Wes intends to change Valen as he hasn't posted on this thread in quite awhile.
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If I recall correctly, the discussion here started because some people thought Valen to be an invulnerable killing machine (or coming dangerously near to it). There *is* a delicate balance with Valen - but not the way she is.
I don't know about AD&D vampires, but Wes has used Vampire: the Masquerade in a comparison above, and the vampires there in no way just stay in their lair and feed. I agree that Valen should become stronger and level up... but somewhat weaker.
The difference, to repeat, is not with Valen leveling and Lassal stagnating. Why doesn't Lassal wear any armor? Why no Rings of Protection? Why doesn't he have a class? Valen has one upon joining the party, which mean she had it before.
Just countering the claw problem with giving immunity to level drain to selected bosses is no real solution, agreed. I think, however, that Valen would have a long way to go until she'd become useless... that's not the purpose here, and Wes won't do that, I'm sure.
What do you mean by "cripple"?
Weaken? Lowering her THAC0 would weaken her, that's the point. Not too much, but a bit.
Make her useless? Why should a lower THAC0 make her entirely useless?
Cas
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"Your typical Vampire doesn't leave his/her lair except to feed"
-Wrong. For example see how the elder Vampires assassinate and recruit Shadow Thieves, and confront you several times in SoA. Not to mention Bodhi.
"Thac0 bonuses and such come from her classes, remove those and once again you cripple her"
-No, THAC0 bonuses come not only from the classes, that's the point. They come from the claws themselves (+1, +2, +3, etc. as she levels as a Vampire) and the proficiency points. THESE are what shouldn't be there. There is nothing wrong with her classes, leave them as they are.
"The problem as I see it is really any change will cripple her usefulness as an NPC"
-Now, that is incorrect. And I'm the living proof to this one. I have been playing Valen (the modified version, as I've posted at the beginning of this topic) for a long time, and she is still a powerhouse, believe me. With the ToB high-level abilities she became even more destructive (despite the fact that her claws only drain 3 level at Matriarch rank). The only thing changed is that you must keep an eye on her, and be a little more wiser where to put her in use and when. Believe me, she is very enjoyable, and definetly not "crippled". B)
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Elder vampires recruiting and killing shadow thieves isn't quite on par with slaying dragons and the Prince of Demons himself. And of the vampires that challenged your party, how many survived the encounter? None, except those that mist form and hide to lick their wounds. The Thac0 bonuses from her claws aren't that major, especially compared to bonuses from other kits irrespective of the weapon used, and if I recall, she gets no bonuses from proficiency, as her claw doesn't count as a dagger. As to my statement about change crippling Valen, I admit that it was a rather broad statement. The most commonly suggested change is to weaken her level drain to an amount significantly below her vampiric rank. I haven't checked the cre's myself, but I am pretty sure that her level drain is equal to that of a vampire of her rank. It does however seem somewhat unfair that of all the vampires in the game, only Bohdi, Tanova, and Valen have much in the way of class levels. But who really wants to play with an NPC who never goes up a level?
One more point here: Have you considered that perhaps Wes doesn't want to change Valen? Even small adjustments can cause a huge amount of work, what with bugs cropping up, incompatabilities, not to mention trying to squeeze in the time to make them and put them up for download. I'm a full time father and the family breadwinner, and I barely find the time to fire up the computer to play a game or check the message boards. I am not attempting to speak for Wes, just attempting to remind everyone that what is being debated here is another guy's work. I've seen quite a few posts mentioning what "has to be changed". Bottem line is that nothing has to be changed unless the author decides it needs to be changed, or until you decide to change it locally.
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her claws count as dagger.
if wes isnt interested in our opinion and wouldnt consider to tweak something here or there, then why has he this discussion board rather than a simple bug-report forum?
we have here two suggestions to nerf valen a bit, one from me, a simple claw nerf and one from Maestro. i dont have much time to play but until now she is as powerfull as korgan.
i dont think an undroppable helm should cause much trouble and seems logical so her eyes dont get burned in the sun. and perhaps a ring as a gift from her mentor. with those you have 3 (helm, armor, ring] unuseable itemslots.
now look at maestros suggestions, 1 and 3 looks good. now with one item you can improve her movement speed and with another her thac0 but it should be a bit lower than it is now.
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" Elder vampires recruiting and killing shadow thieves isn't quite on par with slaying dragons and the Prince of Demons himself".
-Yes, that is correct. But we don't know what they are (or were) doing in the meantime, not to mention that period of time when you was only a little child in Candlekeep. Not only the PC and his/her coompanions are the only adventuring group on Faerun, and Valen isn't the only Vampire who tried adventure. For example take Bodhi, and take a short look at her epilogue after ToB! She walks Faerun in search for strong opponents, to feed on their life force. In other words, she could earn millions of XP until her fate!
"The Thac0 bonuses from her claws aren't that major, especially compared to bonuses from other kits irrespective of the weapon used, and if I recall, she gets no bonuses from proficiency, as her claw doesn't count as a dagger"
-Actually, just as Mr. Guest :P stated (and as I've already said many times) her claws DO act as daggers. This, plus the enchantment bonuses give Valen a +8 bonus to her THAC0 compared to other Vamires. I think this IS major.
"if wes isnt interested in our opinion and wouldnt consider to tweak something here or there, then why has he this discussion board rather than a simple bug-report forum?"
I agree with each word. :unsure:
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I have to disagree about Valen being overpowered.Yes she is fast and yes she can level drain but hell she is always first to die in my party.I have completed the game twice with her in my party and i must say she has to be one of the weakest party members.Try setting the game difficulty up a tad and you will see things even out.
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Another idea: max lvl2 drain and let her heal 5-11hp with every succesfull hit.
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"she is fast and yes she can level drain but hell she is always first to die in my party"
-That is only because you don't control her actions. Try to move her around and use her immense backstab multiplier to weaken enemies, and let her attack mages first. If you don't let her attack that "bid bad fighter-lookin' dirtbag" she will end up being unscatched at the end of the battle.
" she has to be one of the weakest party members"
-Nonsense. Try her by using different tactics. She is not Sarevok. Her powers lie in her special abilities and great resistances (not to mention her crazy speed)
"Another idea: max lvl2 drain and let her heal 5-11hp with every succesfull hit. "
-I played with that idea before, but then I altered the claws the way I said before. That max. 3 level drain, and the +4 enchantment without THAC0 bonuses pretty much balances her attacks.
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is healing not a good idea? this came to my mind because many are saying she is weak but has powerfull attacks. so i thought weak her attacks and do something for the low hp. the hp drain should be improved as she gets new claws. 1d6+1 damage = 2-7hp healing. and even 2lvl drain is very powerfull. remember blackrazor has 10%chance to drain 4 lvl and valen drains with every hit.
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Actually, I've been playing through ToB with her "Eminent" claws (3 level) and by using its weakened thac0, and it seems completely balanced. The only other change I've made for her rebalancing was that I gave Negative Plane protection to the bosses (Yaga-Shura should have it normally at least). She works fine.
The only problem with the "Vampiric-claws" that heal Valen is that this also makes her different compared to average Vampires, and this should be avoided if possible.
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yeah, okay, thats a good point. ;-)
i try to remove her thac0 bonus from dagger prof as well. do you give her a bonus thac0 when she "gets older"?
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No. Just as any other Vampire claws in the game, her claws will improve on their enchanted value only.
"Possible solution:I re-made her claws, so now they improve as follows:
-hand1: +1 when determining what it can hit, deals 1D6+1, drains 1 level;
-hand2: +2 when determining what it can hit, deals 1D6+2, drains 1 level;
-hand3: +2 when determining what it can hit, deals 1D6+2, drains 2 levels;
-hand4: +3 when determining what it can hit, deals 1D6+3, drains 2 levels;
-hand5: +4 when determining what it can hit, deals 1D6+4, drains 3 levels."
These are my versions. They do not use THAC0 or proficiency bonuses.
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I don't think it would be possible to implement Valen as a true vampire NPC without making her way too powerful.
For instance, has a vampire's immunity to weapons less than +2 or greater been mentioned yet. I'm sure Valen doesn't have it. Perhaps the armor should be upgraded to incorporate this feature.
As for her claws, the puny damage they do as they are means they are not too powerful. Most 'bosses' are immune to level drain esp in ToB, so she is better off wielding things like torgal's claw (5-15 dmg), and her own claw in the left hand or quietus for backstabbing.
BTW her gaseous form is very susceptible to holy blights. When I went into the Order of the Radient Heart, they kept hitting her with it, and it stopped her regenerating.
Either way, lets face it if a high level cleric was around, it will be trivial to wipe Valen off the face of the Earth. So why aren't they present in the Temple of Lathander for instance, should she dare to show her face?
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"For instance, has a vampire's immunity to weapons less than +2 or greater been mentioned yet. I'm sure Valen doesn't have it. Perhaps the armor should be upgraded to incorporate this feature"
-No, you are terribly wrong. Valen ahs the weapon-immunity of other Vampires, at Matriarch rank she can only be harmed by +3 weapons or greater. Even the protagonist is unable to get higher than immuntity to +1.
"As for her claws, the puny damage they do as they are means they are not too powerful"
-With her strength at 20 or so, her claws do around 18-30 damage per hit. I wouldn't call this "puny"...
:rolleyes:
"Either way, lets face it if a high level cleric was around, it will be trivial to wipe Valen off the face of the Earth. So why aren't they present in the Temple of Lathander for instance, should she dare to show her face"
-nice idea, it was already suggested before.
However, I'm not sure if there are any intentions to change things. It won't do anybody any harm, but it would be a pity after all. I still think (even if many other players believe that she is pretty well balanced, and it is way normal to let Valen kill Yaga-Shura in 5 hits...) that there is a need for change. Those above and above are only suggestions, and this is a great mod anyway.
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It is normal to let Valen kill Yaga-shura in 5 hits.
The protagonist can do that so what is the big deal?
Any mage type, can cast timestop, shapechange: mindflayer, and devour his brain.
A cleric can cast harm on him, and finish him next round, with a blow from a weapon. That's technically 2 hits.
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However, I'm not sure if there are any intentions to change things.
Yep, no official answers yet. but we can dream. ;-)
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"It is normal to let Valen kill Yaga-shura in 5 hits. The protagonist can do that so what is the big deal?"
-No, it isn't normal at all. Or yes, it is, but only if you play that clumsy original version of the Yaga Shura battle. In the improved version he has insane resistances in the beginning, so "normal" fighters won't have a chance against him for at least 1 or 2 turns. Valen only needs to cast Greater Whirlwind, and the Frie Giant warlord falls in 6 seconds.. nonsense.
"Any mage type, can cast timestop, shapechange: mindflayer, and devour his brain."
-Right, but at least this takes a few seconds to accomplish :lol: ! Another one of the unbalanced effects however.
"A cleric can cast harm on him, and finish him next round, with a blow from a weapon. That's technically 2 hits."
-I wonder how many attempts one needs to successfully hit him with Harm. Since his improved version has great AC, and the Harm "weapon" has only 3 points bonus on THAC0 without proficiency bonuses, it often misses the target.
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-I wonder how many attempts one needs to successfully hit him with Harm. Since his improved version has great AC, and the Harm "weapon" has only 3 points bonus on THAC0 without proficiency bonuses, it often misses the target.
I don't think I've ever missed, though, to be fair, I don't think I've ever used a character with no fighter either (usually use either Anomen or Jaheira). Wait, I used Cernd the first time I used this trick.
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Like always TG :D
What is balanced in your eyes isn't necessarilly balanced in someone elses eyes :D
for instance for me, I'm happy with how she is,and I surely wouldn't want to change her, not even a little.
Maybe you can for the people who are interested and after mailing weimer put your version as a seperate downloadoption, and then this discussion is open untill somebody else finds your 'balanced' version unbalanced and makes another one.
Like you see, nothing will be ever balanced, but it will come in contact with your way of playing. If you find it to easy, then it is in your eyes unbalanced but for somebody else it could even be to hard and therefore unbalanced to. So in short, it's just a mod, be happy with what wes created "and yes, I know you are :)" and ask Wes if you may put your altered version up, then we can finaly let this discussion rest, untill ...
wonders off and goes posting somewhere else :D
cheers
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Just a question(and I think i asked it over a year ago, as well^^) - how does Valen deal with Eclipse party? They're supposed to be second most powerful group in game... (well, actually 3rd, if u count PC) and she can drain 3 warriors to death in couple of hits. You can'd do that even with TS&Shapechange :D Well, I haven't tested it myself, but someone told me that^^. Just a tiny example of being imbalanced.
BTW. Can you level-drain-to-death Jon at Spellhold?
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Valen was extremely frustrating for me to use against the Eclipse Party.
Her blood lust made it very very difficult to actually get the targets I wanted to die.
With her in the party, I practically have to resort to IA cheese bombing Dragon Fire.
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when you move valen to your desired target, she attacks that.
hey, maestro isnt alone with his opinion. okay, point 2-4 wouldnt be in my game because the other vamps actually do have these abilitis. and as i have stated wes could add one or two other unremoveable items which improve like the claws and armor. he could remove the dagger gm and give her instead some bonuses on one of those items that are getting better.
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Yes-yes, like always :P
You know Renegade, talking about balance may be a pointless conversation, at least to people who have way different thoughts on a topic, but...
Since this IS a forum "for balancing issues", I think it could be used for something like that, don't you think? Hey, you're right after all! We could talk about politics, the weather, or simply keep smiling at each other [_[ :lol: .. Now THAT would be perfect. If there are no changes, there is no improvement. And since there IS aneed for change (I keep talking about all the other players who posted in this and the "Valen gets waaaaay too strong" topic - including myself)
"for instance for me, I'm happy with how she is,and I surely wouldn't want to change her, not even a little"
-Good for you. Then simply don't change it. Or do not download the revised version and stay with the current one. The choice is yours alone my friend. But just as you stated, your opinion is only ONE opinion. Mine is one another. :)
"Like you see, nothing will be ever balanced"
-No, but it will satisfy more players.
"for somebody else it could even be to hard and therefore unbalanced to"
-Heh :lol: ! You know, somehow I fail to see posts complaining about Valen being waaaaay too weak.. Don't you think there is some kind of reason behind this one? ;)
"it's just a mod, be happy with what wes created and ask Wes if you may put your altered version up, then we can finaly let this discussion rest"
-You miss the point. I am absolutely happy with Weimer's work, Valen is one of my favorite NPCs after all. About an altered version: I don't think it would be a logical idea. Since there are older releases, one can always reinstall the new one and use the older, if he/she liked that one better. And one more thing: this discussion has one goal: to make things better, at least to make them suitable for most players needs. If you take a look at these forums you'll surely notice that I'm but a single person, but there are many who share my thoughts. At least a few of them. And I haven't suggested that Valen MUST be made the way I tell it, not at all! She is alreadey perfectly planned and made, but needs a few revisions.
But hey, I share your thoughts in one point! "and yes, I know you are :) " - I am indeed :lol:
Until You wander back here, have a nice time! ;)
Yours sincerely: TGM
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BTW. Can you level-drain-to-death Jon at Spellhold?
I remember someone posting a while ago that they level drained him to death when he was still in his disguise (therefore breaking the game). Not sure about the "Hah I stole your soul" battle. Not sure if Wes fixed this one.
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Since this IS a forum "for balancing issues", I think it could be used for something like that, don't you think? Hey, you're right after all! We could talk about politics, the weather, or simply keep smiling at each other <_< :lol: .. Now THAT would be perfect. If there are no changes, there is no improvement. And since there IS aneed for change (I keep talking about all the other players who posted in this and the "Valen gets waaaaay too strong" topic - including myself)
"for instance for me, I'm happy with how she is,and I surely wouldn't want to change her, not even a little"
-Good for you. Then simply don't change it. Or do not download the revised version and stay with the current one. The choice is yours alone my friend. But just as you stated, your opinion is only ONE opinion. Mine is one another. :)
"Like you see, nothing will be ever balanced"
-No, but it will satisfy more players.
"for somebody else it could even be to hard and therefore unbalanced to"
-Heh :lol: ! You know, somehow I fail to see posts complaining about Valen being waaaaay too weak.. Don't you think there is some kind of reason behind this one? ;)
"it's just a mod, be happy with what wes created and ask Wes if you may put your altered version up, then we can finaly let this discussion rest"
-You miss the point. I am absolutely happy with Weimer's work, Valen is one of my favorite NPCs after all. About an altered version: I don't think it would be a logical idea. Since there are older releases, one can always reinstall the new one and use the older, if he/she liked that one better. And one more thing: this discussion has one goal: to make things better, at least to make them suitable for most players needs. If you take a look at these forums you'll surely notice that I'm but a single person, but there are many who share my thoughts. At least a few of them. And I haven't suggested that Valen MUST be made the way I tell it, not at all! She is alreadey perfectly planned and made, but needs a few revisions.
Agreed that there is no improvement without change. Don't agree that there is a *need* for change as you desire it. Yes, many people think Valen gets too powerful. I have seen posts stating that she gets toasted pretty easy as well (I'm pretty sure in the "Waaaaay to strong" thread, among other places), usually to counter the "she's too strong" arguments. I don't think I've see an actual resolution to any one of those debates. . .they tend to trail off with nither side reaching a compromise. Some people think she is too strong as is, and will most likely always think so unless Wes changes her. Others think she is perfectly fine, and don't see any need for change.
If the changes tou recommend are implemented, those that prefer the original won't be able to get any updates for other improvements or changes (new dialogue, bugfixes, whatever) if they want to keep her as is, so the "they can stick with the old version and we'll all be happy" statement isn't really valid.
These changes might satisfy some people, but they'll upset others who don't agree with this viewpoint.
My opinoin is that the "too strong" issue comes from how she's played. If you don't like seeing her tank through everything while the rest of the party stands around watching, then don't make her do that. There are lots of ways to restrict her, without altering the abilities she has *that are part of her being a vampire*. She has the same abilities as other vampires (according to Wes), with the exception that she levels up, equips leet stuff, and has a human controlling her.
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nah, not correct. vamps dont drain 5 levels and dont regen so fast and dont transform to mist so early.
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She has the same abilities as other vampires (according to Wes), with the exception that she levels up, equips leet stuff, and has a human controlling her.
There's probably nothing one can do about the "human controlling her" part. :D
The other two points, however, are right on spot - these (and the strong level drain) are what makes her that strong. So the point of this debate is, more or less, exactly those exceptions. :)
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A fair consideration at least, if you do 'weaken' Valen significantly, you'll prolly want to lessen her Final Death aspect. That in itself is (At least imo), along with the vampire hunters, a significant 'cost' to pay for Valen's power. And given that if you approach it from the viewpoint of just reloading, it becomes a rather moot downside.
The downside would be that would probably take away one of the things that defined Valen as Valen.
She is powerful, she is very powerful. And I'll concede that quite easily. It's a power that comes at an odd trade off, losing choices in your dialog, and having to obliterate the Hunters.
The first isn't too much of trade off if you are playing a Kill First type character/Evil Incarnate (The eggs and the child are prolly the choice forces that sting the most to me).
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IF you have valen along, then you SHOULD be evil, roleplaying side. so those forced choices are a good and fresh feature and arent really annoying.
okay the hunters. most npcs have npc-fights. ähm, you know what i mean.
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nah, not correct. vamps dont drain 5 levels
In fact Matriarch vampires (Bodhi, the vampire in Sendai's Enclave) do. (Bodhi doesn't in Chapter Three, but that's because she's pulling her punches because she doesn't want to kill you.)
and dont regen so fast and dont transform to mist so early.
I doubt the former, and the latter is a weakness in Valen, not a strength. She can die permanently without having her coffin staked, something no other vampire can do.
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okay, okay, just looked at the stats of the patriarch vamp. 5lvl drain and 2hp per sec. you win. :-(
btw is the speed hardcoded in the vamp race? i couldnt find anything on the items.
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"In fact Matriarch vampires (Bodhi, the vampire in Sendai's Enclave) do.... I doubt the former, and the latter is a weakness in Valen, not a strength. She can die permanently without having her coffin staked, something no other vampire can do. "
-Right, Matriarch Vampires DO. And that is another point - your comrades, and even the PC should be significantly WEAKER than many of the bosses. Most PCs would fall if duelled against Bodhi, Jon, or Yaga-Shura for example (not to mention the stronger ones). The fact that Valen (by using her Vampire-powers) definetly wouldn't, unbalances the game. And by request: THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION of course :D
One more small thing - it wouldn't change the world of others, but it is a considerable thing: UNLIKE anybody else, I'VE TRIED the 'original' and the 'altered' version of Valen as well. I've found that Valen IS VERY POWERFUL indeed in the changed version. Her only notable "weaknesses" are that her claws THAC0 got significantly weakened (by 6-7 points) by removing the THAC0 bonuses and prof.bonuses. This won't be noteable in the first period of the game that much, it will have stronger effects around ToB. That will eventually force people to use her without her claws too, this way balancing the level-draining effect (which was weakened the way it was already mentioned above).
Another idea: let her advance in her Vamp-levels a bit slower! For example her script could be edited so she would gain a new "age" every 1.200.000 XP. What about this one? Any comments?
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First of all, I don't think most PC's would lose 1on1 vs Bodhi or Yaga-Shura (Irenicus depends), and most probably my PC would kick Valen's ass (he did once when he was dire charmed).
But you are right that Valen is a bit too powerful (if you use the statue in the Asylum you can get her to Matriarch in the Underdark) and that her level draining abilities will hack any mage to pieces. However this is the player's own choice, if you don't want her to lvl drain that much, don't equip her claws, it's as simple as that.
Advancing in age little bit more slowly would be a very good idea though, because of her insane immunities and because *SPOILER* she gets so much quest XP already from the demon summoned by the Matron Mother.
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Hi there. Just wanted to throw in my two cents. Personally, I find the "if you think the claws are broken dont use em" comment to be a bit of a cop out. I mean, if all game design were taken with that kinda attitude, games would all blow. Sorry if that sounds a bit strong, but the way I see it, taking that kinda stance is just lazy. I would argue that the unbalancing things in this game (dual classing from kits, ridiculous high level spells, traps, stat rolling, etc) are its greatest faults. Sure, you could just not make a Kensai-Thief (or a kensai-mage for that matter or a kensai that uses throwing axes, etc). However, the very existence of such characters invariably invalidates and trivializes your own. But, whatever. Hell, I have absolutely no problem balancing it myself. I will say that since this game is so easy to mod, if you dont like something, just fix it yourself. Its a damn snap. If you like what you did and would like others to try out your version of Valen, make a patch for it and throw it up on some website. Theres no one stopping you, man. :)
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I actually preferred the original Valen. You know, the weakling thief.
The best way to judge Valen is by comparing her to other classes with equal experience. Does she balance out? No, is the answer.
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I agree with TGMaestro that she gains her vampiric powers way too fast. lets face it with 8million XP Cap, she need not gain Matriach status until 6 million XP. Which is normal amount for 6 character party in TOB near the end.
Level 1, up to 1.5 million XP
Level 2 at 1.5 million XP
3 at 3 million XP
4 at 4.5 million XP
5 at 6 million XP.
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good idea. but she isnt meant for tob, or?
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good idea. but she isnt meant for tob, or?
Considering the mod is ToB Required, I doubt that.
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Öhm.... she hasnt a fate spirit dialog. and i think its only tob requ because the hunters are using gw. and the readme says tob is "currently" required and some interjections in soa and nothing in tob.
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It's still insupportable to say she's not meant for ToB. And as far as interjections in ToB go, I don't know if she has them, but she certainly does have an epilogue.
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She has many dialoges in ToB, some very good one too. She has interesting talks with Sarevok. She performs well in ToB (with her revised abilities of course ;) :lol: ).
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btw no "official" comment on "final death" and this thread? :(
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I haven't read this thread the whole way through, but I think Valen could do with some rebalancing, even though I don't think she could ever be completely balanced without defeating the novelty of having a vampire as an NPC. Anyway, my thoughts:
Her movement speed is fairly accurate to her being a vampire, and movement speed isn't that big an advantage anyway. Given a choice between keeping true with her vampirism and balancing the game, I'd go with the former here.
Considering death is irrevocable for Valen, her gaseous form is acceptable. Plus it has its own disadvantages - you can't make Valen assume or leave gaseous form at will, which means that if you let her get down to low health and transform, she's basically out of the fight. Considered in that light, lowering the duration of gaseous form would actually be an advantage. If you're playing with Valen in your party, you probably don't want her to die, in which case you'll just reload if she does. If she assumes gaseous form, then she simply becomes dead weight in whatever battle you're currently fighting. Think of it as letting her die, then resurrecting her after the fight.
Her resistances don't affect things all that much later on, but I think she's immune to too many things. I don't think vampires are supposed to be immune to petrification or slow, or possibly confusion, stun or berserk - bearing in mind that the vampires in-game had a lot of non-legit immunities for the sake of game balance, or just to stop players from buggering certain things up (why stake a vampire when you can just petrify it?). I'd remove the extraneous immunities.
I think the claw is the biggest factor. I agree wholeheartedly with removing the dagger proficiency, as vampires aren't actually meant to have claws, just more powerful fists. Vampire fists are supposed to deal 5-10 base (crushing) damage and drain 2 levels, or possibly more based on the age (level) of the vampire. To balance them, I'd make her claws hand-to-hand weapons, and then instead of having the claw as an equippable weapon, I'd put it in the fist slot (where fists on normal characters go) to prevent dual-wielding (instead of using a TakeItemReplace string to upgrade her claws, you could just apply create item in slot spells whenever appropriate). Then she'd be stuck with however many base attacks per round her fighter level allowed for, and no erroneous to hit or damage bonuses. Still completely authentic to a vampire's capabilities, and maybe then normal weapons would be an attractive alternative for her at times. :)
This is all just my two cents though, so take it with a grain of salt. Not trying to tick you off, Weimer, I love your mod. :lol:
For anyone who's interested, you can find a Monster Manual entry addressing 2nd edition vampires here (http://advancedkid.narod.ru/mm00294.htm).
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"Her movement speed is fairly accurate to her being a vampire, and movement speed isn't that big an advantage anyway. Given a choice between keeping true with her vampirism and balancing the game, I'd go with the former here."
Yep, my opinion, too. The speed is good as it is now BUT the idea of Maestro to speed her up over the time is a good choice for balance. ;)
"Considering death is irrevocable for Valen, her gaseous form is acceptable. Plus it has its own disadvantages - you can't make Valen assume or leave gaseous form at will, which means that if you let her get down to low health and transform, she's basically out of the fight. Considered in that light, lowering the duration of gaseous form would actually be an advantage. If you're playing with Valen in your party, you probably don't want her to die, in which case you'll just reload if she does. If she assumes gaseous form, then she simply becomes dead weight in whatever battle you're currently fighting. Think of it as letting her die, then resurrecting her after the fight."
Correct. I just reload if she dies. I do that for every party member. Not if the fight is too difficult and i think i might win it.
"Her resistances don't affect things all that much later on, but I think she's immune to too many things. I don't think vampires are supposed to be immune to petrification or slow, or possibly confusion, stun or berserk - bearing in mind that the vampires in-game had a lot of non-legit immunities for the sake of game balance, or just to stop players from buggering certain things up (why stake a vampire when you can just petrify it?). I'd remove the extraneous immunities."
i dont know. fledging vamps dont need to be stacked and they have those immunities, too, iirc. it wont hurt to remove them if that helps to tune valen down a bit.
"I think the claw is the biggest factor. I agree wholeheartedly with removing the dagger proficiency, as vampires aren't actually meant to have claws, just more powerful fists. Vampire fists are supposed to deal 5-10 base (crushing) damage and drain 2 levels, or possibly more based on the age (level) of the vampire. To balance them, I'd make her claws hand-to-hand weapons, and then instead of having the claw as an equippable weapon, I'd put it in the fist slot (where fists on normal characters go) to prevent dual-wielding (instead of using a TakeItemReplace string to upgrade her claws, you could just apply create item in slot spells whenever appropriate). Then she'd be stuck with however many base attacks per round her fighter level allowed for, and no erroneous to hit or damage bonuses. Still completely authentic to a vampire's capabilities, and maybe then normal weapons would be an attractive alternative for her at times."
jep, maestro has suggested something like that, too. on the other side in my current party valen does not hit the enemies better as korgan and if you increase her thac0 i dont know if thats a good idea. i dont have tested it with a higher thac0. perhaps maestro has some insideds how well she performs because he has removed the bonuses from the profincies.
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fledging vamps dont need to be stacked and they have those immunities, too, iirc.
They're immune to berserk, but not confusion, petrification, slow or stun (or slay, strangely enough, which I thought was considered standard fare for all undead, but I may well be wrong).
In fact the "standard" vampire immunity-giving items (VAMPREG, VAMPREG1, VAMPREG2 etc.) only give immunity to...sleep, charm, hold, poison, berserk, fear and level drain. Only certain vampires have further immunities; Bodhi, obviously, one or two of the ones that require staking, and any vampire with the prefix "VV", which I think indicates that they're part of triggered sequences in the streets of Athkatla.
if you increase her thac0 i dont know if thats a good idea.
Well, you have to take several factors into account - firstly, when she does connect, she's draining up to five levels, which is very powerful in and of itself. Secondly, she's operating under fighter THAC0. Thirdly, later on she'll have access to improved haste (up to, I guess, four attacks per round) and eventually whirlwind. Her fists won't be all-powerful - she'll get half an attack less than she'd get wielding a weapon, her THAC0 will be a bit higher, and she'll be doing less base damage - but they'll still be very potent. It's just that other weapons will have their own advantages, and you'll be more inclined to use other things. And that's the whole point, really.
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Um, that was me. [_[
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In all the banter this board has witnessed, I have only noted two worth-while statements partaining to the bettrment of Valen. Both, I feel, should be considerred and are very realistic to the forgotten realms setting.
#1. Level penalty: In p&p D&D monsters have a level penalty as do some of the more "powerful" player races. A +1 level ajustment for the tiefling race, for example. The character would effectively hav to gain the equivelant of leveltree experiance to become level two. I am uncertain as to what the vampire level penalty is, but it may be wise to implament it with Valek(and Haer'Dalis).
#2 Vampire Claw: Again, I am uncertain as to the p&p arangment, but for consistancy it may be wise to alter Valen's claw THANCO bonus to match a vampire's. The knife proficiany, however, is very debatable. Wes has already made his stand on this portion of the idea so I will not boher to press my opinions.
I do not see Valen as overpowerred. I merely wish to aid in the realistic portion of Vale being a vampire. I also believe that is what should be focused on, fleshing out her race, fixing any of the small oversights in this aspect of the character.
Vampires in the game don't have item... this should not be talked of here. This is a forum for Valen, not a tactics mod... Bah, overlook this, I am certain these words writen her will have no sway on this seeminly endless flow of directionless babble.
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Wow Dr. Yes, your additions were SO informative and insightful. I guess the other rejects on this board owe you a debt of gratitude. . .Pud.
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Just a BG2 junkie commenting on this..
After downloading the mod, being really impressed with the great portrait, the good voicing (voicing is very important imo, gives it the legit feel), I summarily uninstalled it and reloaded a different saved game after watching her zip around faster then anything I've ever seen. It was utterly rediculous, I play the game to have fun, not run around in god-mode trivializing all the encounters of the game.
If she was a regular character, with some minor vampire strengths, and the same weaknesses I'd use her just because she's cool.
Great character, waaaay overpowered.
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Just a BG2 junkie commenting on this..
After downloading the mod, being really impressed with the great portrait, the good voicing (voicing is very important imo, gives it the legit feel), I summarily uninstalled it and reloaded a different saved game after watching her zip around faster then anything I've ever seen. It was utterly rediculous, I play the game to have fun, not run around in god-mode trivializing all the encounters of the game.
If she was a regular character, with some minor vampire strengths, and the same weaknesses I'd use her just because she's cool.
Great character, waaaay overpowered.
Just one thing, the voice is an original voice in the game :D And for her being overpowered, well send T.G. an e-mail and ask him to send his revised Valen. ;) Or, just give me your e-mail and I'll post it to ya, with it she's much more fun.
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Ok, Valen is fun, and Valen is too powerful. Here are my thoughts on how to improve the mod so that you can have Valen without breaking the game:
1) Let Valen be a vampire and also a fighter-thief multiclass. But why does she have grandmastery in daggers? Ordinary multiclasses can't have it, and there's no real reason to give it to Valen... she's there to fill the thief slot.
2) As everybody's pointing out, claws using dagger proficiency doesn't make any sense.
3) Why does Valen need all these vampire powerups? It doesn't really make any sense that she becomes an elder vampire by wandering around with your hero for a couple of weeks. Just give her the abilities of an ordinary vampire (already considerable) and let her level up the way everybody else does.
4) Give her all of the vampire immunities/extra speed/regeneration and so forth, and all her fighter and thief abilities and so forth. None of these are really problematic.
5) The permanent death makes good sense, and certainly Valen shouldn't die normally (would ruin the aesthetic if you cast resurrection on your vampire buddy). But it's also annoying... given that you can just reload if anything bad happens, it won't really change the way you play or think about Valen. Why not have her work the way ordinary vampires do: if you pound her enough, she mistforms, and stays out for a long time? Although I guess this would make the vampire hunters less of a challenge...
6) The Valen mistform is, to my mind, the biggest problem. Because here's what happens time and again during tough fights. Valen wades in first since she's faster than everybody else. She kills a bunch of things, but gets beat up pretty fast since she has low hp. So she mistforms. Then everybody's pounding on the mistform, and the rest of the party walks up and slaughters them. It's a problem with the game's AI not knowing how to handle the mistform ability which the PCs ordinarily don't have. Perhaps the mistform could be more effective in getting out of the way?
7) Valen's claws: first of all, would it really be so tough to make them unusable by everybody else? I know I can just not use them, but it breaks the feel of the game when I know that there's that possibility. Second: the level draining ability is too strong. I know it's no better than the level draining ability that super-charged vampires you meet in the game get, but monster levels aren't always coded in reasonably so that you can often take out really tough enemies with just a few hits. If you take my above suggestion (so Valen doesn't get stronger vampire abilities as she gains xp), then you could give her just one version of the claws which could drain one or two levels. I guess the price of doing things this way is that in late game the claws can't compete with other weapons that you could find for Valen.
8) The special armor thing doesn't make too much sense, and it takes away some of the fun of the game. I'd imagine that if you're going to take Valen then you're going to use her as your thief, and there are lots of neat special armors for thieves in the game which you won't get to try out if that slot is always taken. Why not come up with some other explanation for why Valen can survive in sunlight (possibly using some less vital slot like a ring slot)?
Let me just conclude by thanking Weimer for making Valen. The mod is fun; the above are just suggestions for making the mod more fun.
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Although I guess this would make the vampire hunters less of a challenge...
Not to mention pointless. "Attack the vampire, though we have not a hope of killing it!"
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1) True, but isnt it too much of a nerf to reduce her thac0 AND her level draining? perhaps give her profincies with every vamp upgrade. so after the last upgrade she has grandmastery with her claws.
3) nah, those upgrades are a brilliant idea.
5/6) its better when in mistform she wanders around or vanish, so the enemies target other party members instead.
7) jep, 5lvl draining is way too much. even vamps in ravenloft drain max 3 lvl.
8) no, her armor is good like it is now.
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"-Proficiencies on claws: I examined .cre files for quite a long time, and I still believe most creatures DON'T use the proficiency bonuses to their weapon (hands, claws, and other undroppable items). "
Creatures use the THAC0 that was assigned to them so proficiencies are relatively pointless.
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I already pointed this out in one of my earlier posts. Valen gets the natural THAC0 bonuses as she levels up, she gets the enchantment/THAC0 bonus of her claws, plus she gets the THAC0/damage bonuses of weapon specialization. Absolutely overpowered and insane if you ask me.
Anyway, I've a working and very much balanced version of Valen here with me, so if someone is interested in trying a much more realistic vampire party member, feel free to PM me and we will talk about the details.
The things I've been edited on Valen:
- her claws and THAC0 bonuses;
- her level draining capabilities (now stops at +3);
- her armor (it was giving an incorrect AC, as if it had a +7 enchantment, which is obviously not the case);
- her immunities (she will receive stronger immunities as she levels up, and won't gain all of them at start);
- her resistances (it improves as she levels up, starting from a Fledling Vamp. level);
- her movement speed (again, it starts at 130% and increases to 200% as she advances in her Vampire status);
- her Gaseous Form (lasts longer at higher Vamp. levels, while lasts shorter at low levels, plus its crazy resisatnces were balanced a bit);
- she gained a few weak spots in addition ;) , just to make her more tricky to play;
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her gaseous form should be untouched i think.
and her vamp immunities should be like all vamps and her speed also. otherwise she isnt a real vampire. ;)
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otherwise she isnt a real vampire
Still you forget that REAL vampires don't tend to use magical equipment like she does. She is clearly an equal for Bodhi when she is buffed up with some heavy magical goods. This part SHOULD be balanced by any means - and playing with her innate and racial abilities is one way to do this.
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I enjoyed playing Valen, but I felt (like, I think, a lot of others here) that there were two things that detracted from the experience:
1) The vampire hunter scene was all-but-impossible
2) The rest of the game was much, much too easy.
I think a few tweaks would take care of both of these without proving a detriment to Valen's uniqueness:
1) Make Valen a single-classed thief (it looked, from an earlier post, like she was once). There's a dearth of good thieves in the game anyway, and it takes away much of the ridiculousness that comes with using her claws combined with weapon specialization and whirlwinds. It also faces a party with an interesting choice: Use traditional fighter-types, with better chances to hit and better defence, or use Valen to drain lots of levels?
2) Add protection from level drain to more cleric scripts. And have oppenent clerics try to turn her.
3) Slow down Valen's claw advancement, as suggested earlier in this thread (actually, I just noticed that the latest release does this--1 level/1.5 million XP...good idea!).
4) Make monsters that can't affect Valen's mist form ignore it. The fact that they don't makes her *very* succeptible to abuse--I took out all the golems in Firkraag's lair this way without breaking a sweat...let Valen go for them first, and once she turns to mist, they'll keep ineffectually beating on her while the rest of your party attacks them with impunity.
5) In compensation, the vampire hunters need to be seriously nerfed. I can think three ways to do this:
a) Make them substantially lower level. Maybe give Van Helsing and Buffy about 3 million XP each, and the others 2.5?
b) Make them show up much later--at 4.5 million XP or so.
c) Divide them into two groups: Let Van Helsing appear solo at 2.5 million XP, and have the others show up as a group an extra million XP later.
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otherwise she isnt a real vampire
Still you forget that REAL vampires don't tend to use magical equipment like she does. She is clearly an equal for Bodhi when she is buffed up with some heavy magical goods. This part SHOULD be balanced by any means - and playing with her innate and racial abilities is one way to do this.
This is nothing more then a supported stereotype. I might as well claim that Wizards don't use spells.
Just because common or wellknow folklore doesn't hi-light the fact that Vampires do/don't use magical items, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
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Just because common or wellknow folklore doesn't hi-light the fact that Vampires do/don't use magical items, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
No Seif, you got my words in a wrong way. I was referring to the fact that Vampires in BG2 don't seem to use ANY magical items that would enhance their fighting provess, unlike Valen. And this makes her much more powerful than her "siblings".
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More legitimately than the "NPC Vampires don't use magical items as often as PC Vampires" argument is the presentation of her Armor (Ability to soak sun) and that she can drop major proficency into her claw attacks.
However, the argument that "NPC Vampires don't use magical items as often as Valen" is as silly as claiming that ANY humanoid you encounter doesn't make use of a similiar party wealth level. It's also a rather ugly downward spiral of the party getting continually new and better resources (some exceptions, the nodrop items on some folks, and 'scripted' items :P). Just because she and Lassal/Bodhi are both vampires instead of both humans doesn't change the balance relation.
I do agree, however, that she should typically be better off than Bodhi except maybe in an Ascension time period situation, but then again, I'd be hesitant there as well, due to Improved Bodhi.
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hello there ;)
----munbo jambo (you can skip it)----
first of all let me say i find Valen mod concept very interesting, although i never played it (neither BG2 for a long time, RL sucks...) and i'm looking forward to summer vacations...
i decided to post here since i hate overpowered npc's/items; they ruin the game... ironically being i a power gamer (or a least i try to)
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you want to have a vampire in your party like other vampires... but it can't be because it is too overpowered; so some major changes have to be taken, not ruining the concept of Valen, but neither take the fun/challenges of the game... so take a look at my sugestions and flame me :P (i bet lot of people won't like it... but it's just MHO)
Valen isn't a vampire; but instead she's half vampire, half human
(or half elf... "her mother was an elfish sorcerer"..."her birth wasn't wished, has she is a product of a rape"... i don't know, spread wings to imagination)
this gives the biography background to make her different from other vampires, like using magical items, leveling up, et cetera... things that weren't intended to happen to creatures but only NPCs. with this argument you can make a balanced NPC-vampire: lower her damage, thaco, resistances, speed, et cetera
The Gaseous Form should be more vulnerable to fire and magic.
wouldn't cold make more sense? fire => heat => solid->liquid->gaseous
if she's already in gaseous form, more heat shouldn't do nothing... au contrair, cold would 'damage' the gaseous form
the sunlight stuff. My thought instead is what every other vampire does.... turn into a bat.
she is useless on one/fourth of the game (in daylight) where she can't be used as a fighter and not even as a thief
how about making vampire bats more powerfull ? wirm-bat? bat-girl? LOL :D (sorry... couldn't resist it)
now seriously:
idea1: she's half-vampire, she keeps her humanoid form and can withstand the daylight, but i sures hurts: she gets STR/DEX/CON penalties, and also gets slowed and what about 1HP lost per hour ?
idea2: her mother trying to hide her true nature, enchanted a magical amulet that makes her withstand the sun (only usable by Valen) (another user suggested a ring slot)
idea3: she's Blade's daughter :) lol (couldn't resist it.. again)
5 potion of invisibility
she's a vampire and a thief... she should have a skill like: "3 times a day - improved invisibility" + "5 times a day - invisibility"... and this could grow with her level-ups (or maybe start lower)
(i don't know if she has it already, but by the 5 potions.. it doesn't seem)
she can't be resurrected, thus she can get definitively killed
this totally sucks :( idea: for Valen to join up your party... someone has to carry her coffin, making her resurrectable
i don't know if the not-resurrect thing was Weimer's idea or IE limitation
yes, you can always reload... but it makes sense that she doesn't leave her coffin and that she could only permantely die if pierced by the wooden stick ou a critical hit by a piercing weapon(nice idea, i don't know if it's possible)
she gets killed by your OWN turn undead/ false dawn/ sunlight if you try to use it against undead
now that ruined it! :(
she gets you in some fights you don't want to engage (like the guards in gov district)
encore... but since she's caotic evil... it makes some sense... OTOH she's in your party... she's supposed to obbey
Instead of tweaking Valen, how about making a tactics component for the mod. Make the enemy use anti undead tactics if Valen is in your party: have clerics cast sunray, equip the odd character with holy water, even a protection from undead scroll(should be part of any veteran adventurers kit), or even have a cleric or two turn undead! Lets see how overpowered Valen is when an evil cleric controlls her and she turns on your party!
superb idea! but i think this should be already in the mod.
What if she has an XP penalty?
a level-up table is a better one IMO
about the level drain... why not a saving throw allowed, or a 50% chance it drains 1-3 levels... and of course 'bosses' are imune to level drain. or maybe even remove the level drain ability, making it avaible only in ToB for enemies X levels lower than Valen...
the hp drain should be improved as she gets new claws.
great idea! :) why not to kick the level drain and have a HP drain instead :) since she's only half vampire
Valen ahs the weapon-immunity of other Vampires, at Matriarch rank she can only be harmed by +3 weapons or greater.
that's wayyy powerfull... somehow a penalty should increase also... "+3 weapons" cames along with "-30% piercing resist"
overall this is positive, since what? only 1/3 of damage out here comes from piercing
removing the dagger proficiency, as vampires aren't actually meant to have claws, just more powerful fists. Vampire fists are supposed to deal 5-10 base (crushing) damage and drain 2 levels, or possibly more based on the age (level) of the vampire.
this is very subjective, and IMO out the dagger, in the fists, but 3-6(crushing) + 2-4 (slashing)
imagine yourself a vampire, you could punch but you can also cut with your steel like sharp nails...
to prevent dual-wielding
if IE possible, i think unarmed dual wielding makes sense... 'all your life you have been killing with your hands... well, to be honest, only your right hand'; it makes sense your master unarmed fight, you dual wield your fists
(i don't remember monks, if not, they should also... but this is D&D, not my idea of logic'ness :/)
Although I guess this would make the vampire hunters less of a challenge...
Not to mention pointless. "Attack the vampire, though we have not a hope of killing it!"
hurry... get the vacuum cleaner, i left it in my wagonmobile :D LOOL
the gaseous form even turns vicon
nice... after wrting all this i see that TG Maestro as defined the path to custom the mod...
in Nov 19 2003... ohh well... i'll post it anyway... :/
cya... and thanks Weimer for all you have contributed to the modding scene :)
@TGM
how are things going ? btw.. what about the other mod you talked about tweaking? (K-Z : )
kind'a- offtopic, but it IMO it would be nice... (i just though of it now, it wasn't my intention)
but what do you think of adding the jokes i said here as some funny NPC interactions...
Edwin: Oooh my... you sure know how to spill some blood... you sexy bat-girl... Is there any chance you can teach me those techniques? Shall we say... dinner at 8 o'clock ?
Valen: That would be nice... i always wanted to taste some red wizard wannabe blood...
Edwin: hmmrrr... forget i said that, i have to....hmmm... help the childrens... in an orphanege.... in neverwinter.... yes, that's it.
Slayer1: Attack the vampire, if by any chance she turns to her gaseous form, get the vaccum cleaner on the slayer-mobile.
Kagain: Tell me ou' fowl beast... how can yea' withstand the daylight? How do yeh' survive? Aren't yea' supposed to turn to dust?
Valen: Tell me dwarf... How do you survive without your brain? : )
Kagain: What?
Valen: I said a lot of suncream. : )
Kagain: What the bloody hells is a funcream? O_o Yea' eat it? Or ya' drink it? haha
Valen: Grrr... these punny livings creatures just make wish to be dead.
Viconia: Aren't you already? If you aren't happy i can always turn you... undead! : )
Valen: Very funny... i bet the locals townfolks would like to ear it also... and then burn the drow witch... : )
hope i didn't forget anything :P lol
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you could actually have her BE duel class like it said she was in the read me. That would lower her fighting power. Another thing. The other vampires of the game aren't immune to level drain (there suposed to be) But sense they are Valen should be effected as well.
You could slow her vampire evolution every 2,000,000exp.
The main thing that makes her powerful is her level drain.
Maybe the final Matriarch status should wait tell 8,000,000exp.
Also having her claws never count as more then +3 weapons could limit what she can turn her power on.
Dispite her power. At her peak she could never defeat my Kensai/Thief who dual wields the axe of unyelding and blackrazor, (in her case he'd use daystar)
As for nerfing the hunters. DONT let them each summon a deva. The party can't summon more then one deva so why the hell can they!