Posted by: Kulyok
« on: July 02, 2008, 12:52:34 AM »Quote
(Did I just say "contemporaneous"? I may have to split this thread to save it from me.)
I was sooo depressed with this thread... until this post.
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I was sooo depressed with this thread... until this post.
Posted by: KIrving
« on: July 01, 2008, 11:14:20 PM »(And because of things like this, teaching grammar rules tends to be a bit of a dick. From personal experience, I think the best way to pick up how to write is to read a lot and imitate.)I agree. I also think this applies to writing style too, especially when developing as a writer. Although I wouldn't recommend beginning with 'The Eye of Argon by John Theis' as the basis for developing a writing style.
http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/sf/eyeargon/eyeargon.htm
I could suggest the 'write what you know' rule, however that can be limiting in a fantasy or s/f setting. How many people know how to pilot a space ship or ride a dragon? (and research can only go so far
)That rule still has merit though as there are characters, conversations and situations that can be drawn from most people's lives and utilized in their writing.
Also, write what you want to write. Even if the npc is possibly a 'insert appropriate gender superhuman/demi-dragon/nymph' ism. If the writer isn't engaged in the characters and story then the readers are unlikely to be.
Posted by: jcompton
« on: July 01, 2008, 08:12:16 PM »Could you please name the sane word processing program that will both spellcheck and refrain from inserting strange characters into the text or messing with ellipses? I would be quite grateful.
MS Word will do this, you just have to know where to look. In Word 2003 it's Tools/Options/Spelling & Grammar and disable the "as you type" options.
Then Tools/Autocorrect Options and shut off things you don't like under the various tabs. The AutoCorrect tab has "replace text as you type" where you can either remove the ellipsis entry, or just turn off the entire process.
Posted by: berelinde
« on: July 01, 2008, 07:19:19 PM »Yeah, I'm kidding. I don't do irony often, so enjoy it while it lasts.Now, it's acceptable to end sentences with prepositions, but the over-30 crowd will regard you disdainfully over the tops of their horn-rimmed reading glasses.
I'm not sure if you're kidding or not...
Posted by: SimDing0™
« on: July 01, 2008, 05:42:42 PM »Yes, I realize that people usually use the plural "them" because English lacks a gender-neutral singular pronoun that isn't "it." That is no excuse.Much like preposition ending, unless you want people to start throwing round some really horrible his-or-her sentence construction, I think this is one to get over. Grammar is there to encourage clear writing, not to whip you in the face while you try and rephrase what you're saying, and as such, comma placement is vastly important while any grammatical guideline which says you have to write something stupid is one to ignore.
(And because of things like this, teaching grammar rules tends to be a bit of a dick. From personal experience, I think the best way to pick up how to write is to read a lot and imitate.)
Posted by: Bookwyrme
« on: July 01, 2008, 05:31:51 PM »*Carefully refrains from grammar comment
Could you please name the sane word processing program that will both spellcheck and refrain from inserting strange characters into the text or messing with ellipses? I would be quite grateful.
Could you please name the sane word processing program that will both spellcheck and refrain from inserting strange characters into the text or messing with ellipses? I would be quite grateful.
Posted by: jcompton
« on: July 01, 2008, 04:59:53 PM »Advance notice--there's nothing wrong with it, and I realize that the original post addressed both "NPCs should be written well in terms of content" and "NPCs should be written well in terms of grammar" but if we start seeing a hardcore grammar slapfight* I'll probably split it off so that it doesn't distract from the more interesting question of "how can you avoid sucky content?"
I will say that "correct as you type" is probably a bad choice for anybody using lots of coined words, as fantasy CRPG writers are pretty much guaranteed to do. And because of the "combo ellipsis character" problem. And so forth. But any sane word processor should let you turn that feature off and still run a spelling and/or grammar check on demand.
* - And that wouldn't be distressingly nerdy at all. Oh no.
I'm not sure if you're kidding or not, but you do know about the "up with which I will not put" mockery of that guideline, right? Whether or not Winston Churchill actually said it, the fact that it was contemporaneous to him means you may have to dig a little deeper than the 70s to find an anti-preposition cadre.
(Did I just say "contemporaneous"? I may have to split this thread to save it from me.)
I will say that "correct as you type" is probably a bad choice for anybody using lots of coined words, as fantasy CRPG writers are pretty much guaranteed to do. And because of the "combo ellipsis character" problem. And so forth. But any sane word processor should let you turn that feature off and still run a spelling and/or grammar check on demand.
* - And that wouldn't be distressingly nerdy at all. Oh no.
Now, it's acceptable to end sentences with prepositions, but the over-30 crowd will regard you disdainfully over the tops of their horn-rimmed reading glasses.
I'm not sure if you're kidding or not, but you do know about the "up with which I will not put" mockery of that guideline, right? Whether or not Winston Churchill actually said it, the fact that it was contemporaneous to him means you may have to dig a little deeper than the 70s to find an anti-preposition cadre.
(Did I just say "contemporaneous"? I may have to split this thread to save it from me.)
Posted by: berelinde
« on: July 01, 2008, 04:53:14 PM »Yeah, according to Webster's Grammar Dictionary, it's perfectly acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition. Language is a fluid thing, and it changes over time. When my father, born in 1926 was a boy, British spellings were the norm, even in the US. It took him a long time to get used to not using them, and he never really got the hang of it. Now, it's acceptable to end sentences with prepositions, but the over-30 crowd will regard you disdainfully over the tops of their horn-rimmed reading glasses.
Comma use has also gone out of favor. To me, a sentence looks funny without its commas in the usual places. According to modern gramatical rules, or perhaps I should say the lack of them, neither this sentence nor the one before it actually needs any commas. Without them, though, I would think it looked like it was typed by a 13 year old AoLer.
Everybody has a pet peeve. The "Your/You're" error is yours. The failure of pronouns to agree in number is mine. The following sentences are incorrect:
"What do you do when somebody tells you their past and you don't want to hear it?"
"It's every man for themselves."
Drives me bonkers.
Yes, I realize that people usually use the plural "them" because English lacks a gender-neutral singular pronoun that isn't "it." That is no excuse.
Comma use has also gone out of favor. To me, a sentence looks funny without its commas in the usual places. According to modern gramatical rules, or perhaps I should say the lack of them, neither this sentence nor the one before it actually needs any commas. Without them, though, I would think it looked like it was typed by a 13 year old AoLer.
Everybody has a pet peeve. The "Your/You're" error is yours. The failure of pronouns to agree in number is mine. The following sentences are incorrect:
"What do you do when somebody tells you their past and you don't want to hear it?"
"It's every man for themselves."
Drives me bonkers.
Yes, I realize that people usually use the plural "them" because English lacks a gender-neutral singular pronoun that isn't "it." That is no excuse.
Posted by: Lorph Halys
« on: July 01, 2008, 04:08:03 PM »In formal English? Oh yes there is!
Either that or several years worth of professors and grammar textbooks have been lying to me.
Well, whether or not it has been a rule is quite hotly contested, but today, it is largely agreed upon by even the most hardcore grammar freaks that it even if it is, it is antiquated, completely pointless and not worth following except for when you want to sound posh. Nobody really cares anymore and nobody really cares about the few people that do care.
Such is the way of linguistic evolution.
Posted by: Bookwyrme
« on: July 01, 2008, 03:22:15 PM »Typos are a fact of life. Even assuming that every person who sits behind the keyboard made it to his state's finals in the spelling bee back when they still were young enough to learn to spell, connecting the right finger with the right key 100% of the time would be too much to ask.
While this is true, a spell check will eliminate the vast majority of such errors unless you are unfortunate enough to accidentally type another valid word. Better yet, use a word processor that indicates any mistakes you make as you go.
Except word processors have this tendency to insert funky characters every so often and to do weird things with ellipses.
I am now using a program that doesn't have spellcheck for just such a reason.
Quote
QuoteGrammar... well, I'm not sure they even teach grammar anymore. Back when I was in school, when rocks were soft, I was taught that an educated person never ended a sentence with a preposition, e.g. "I don't know where you're coming from."
That's actually incorrect. It certainly sounds more formal and you shouldn't do it if you want to come across that way, but there is no rule in English stating that one should not end a sentence with a preposition.
In formal English? Oh yes there is!
Either that or several years worth of professors and grammar textbooks have been lying to me.
Posted by: Lorph Halys
« on: July 01, 2008, 01:20:30 PM »I would rephrase as
You hush yourself. I do not spend time and effort grooming forum posts to absolute perfection at one o'clock in the morning, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
Typos are a fact of life. Even assuming that every person who sits behind the keyboard made it to his state's finals in the spelling bee back when they still were young enough to learn to spell, connecting the right finger with the right key 100% of the time would be too much to ask.
While this is true, a spell check will eliminate the vast majority of such errors unless you are unfortunate enough to accidentally type another valid word. Better yet, use a word processor that indicates any mistakes you make as you go.
Quote
Grammar... well, I'm not sure they even teach grammar anymore. Back when I was in school, when rocks were soft, I was taught that an educated person never ended a sentence with a preposition, e.g. "I don't know where you're coming from."
That's actually incorrect. It certainly sounds more formal and you shouldn't do it if you want to come across that way, but there is no rule in English stating that one should not end a sentence with a preposition.
That aside, however, I wasn't referring to errors that would be introduced by the character. Obviously if you want to portray a stupid ogre, it'd be rather silly to have him speak the Queen's English with flair and precision. However, there are some errors that simply cannot be excused by this, such as the aforementioned your/you're confusion; mistakes that appear in the writing, as it were, and not the speech.
Posted by: berelinde
« on: July 01, 2008, 07:18:54 AM »Typos are a fact of life. Even assuming that every person who sits behind the keyboard made it to his state's finals in the spelling bee back when they still were young enough to learn to spell, connecting the right finger with the right key 100% of the time would be too much to ask. With that in mind, everyone should use a proofreader. It's better if that proofreader is someone who didn't do any of the writing.
Grammar... well, I'm not sure they even teach grammar anymore. Back when I was in school, when rocks were soft, I was taught that an educated person never ended a sentence with a preposition, e.g. "I don't know where you're coming from." Sometimes, rewording the sentence is easy, others, not so much. The sentence I used as an example is commonly used in verbal communication, but it's gramatically incorrect. Simply rearranging the words won't work. I'd need to look at the intent of the sentence and rewrite it. In this case, it would become "I don't know your point of reference." Blech. That's an unrealistically erudite sentence for my 9-intelligence fighter, the one who'd really like the friendship talk to be over so he can go back to chatting up Branwen.
That's where narrative license comes in. (BTW, I'm not sure if "in" is a preposition here, because it's more of a locational pronoun...) As modders, we write dialogue. It's probably perfectly acceptable to bend grammar rules where they are different for verbal communication. If your character would use double negatives, then you should write double negatives. Ditto, sentences that don't have a verb, like this one.
I can't proofread my own work. For one thing, I seem to be biologically incapable of seeing the 700 instances where I've substituted a full stop for a question mark. For another, I'm dyslexic, so I write much, much faster than I read. I type 80 wpm, but I can't even read 40. Even then, it all looks funny anyway, so I won't spot the mistakes.
This is all just a long way of saying "Use a proofreader, but write it the way it would sound if someone were saying it."
Grammar... well, I'm not sure they even teach grammar anymore. Back when I was in school, when rocks were soft, I was taught that an educated person never ended a sentence with a preposition, e.g. "I don't know where you're coming from." Sometimes, rewording the sentence is easy, others, not so much. The sentence I used as an example is commonly used in verbal communication, but it's gramatically incorrect. Simply rearranging the words won't work. I'd need to look at the intent of the sentence and rewrite it. In this case, it would become "I don't know your point of reference." Blech. That's an unrealistically erudite sentence for my 9-intelligence fighter, the one who'd really like the friendship talk to be over so he can go back to chatting up Branwen.
That's where narrative license comes in. (BTW, I'm not sure if "in" is a preposition here, because it's more of a locational pronoun...) As modders, we write dialogue. It's probably perfectly acceptable to bend grammar rules where they are different for verbal communication. If your character would use double negatives, then you should write double negatives. Ditto, sentences that don't have a verb, like this one.
I can't proofread my own work. For one thing, I seem to be biologically incapable of seeing the 700 instances where I've substituted a full stop for a question mark. For another, I'm dyslexic, so I write much, much faster than I read. I type 80 wpm, but I can't even read 40. Even then, it all looks funny anyway, so I won't spot the mistakes.
This is all just a long way of saying "Use a proofreader, but write it the way it would sound if someone were saying it."
Posted by: DavidW
« on: July 01, 2008, 03:47:55 AM »Menolly (or whatever her name was) in Norton's Pern subseries
It was Menolly - assuming you mean McCaffrey, not Norton.
Posted by: cmorgan
« on: June 30, 2008, 09:25:57 PM »With Zelazny (or any one of a myriad of writers) the critics have spoken as well as the audience. Heinlein, Zahn, Dickson, writing about their protagonists explored personality facets; of course, Scientology and Hubbard show how closely his writing and his personal belief system could intermesh. Drizzt in Salvator, Menolly (or whatever her name was) in Norton's Pern subseries , heck, most of the best fanstasy and science fiction revolves around the Larger Than Life hero (or anti-hero) who are written as either personally gifted beyond mortal ken or the recipient of tremendous coincidence/luck/happenstance - and quite often with a healthy dose of self expression. Without that, you get either procedurals like Agatha Christie or formula writing like Sam Spade novels. You can take it farther - CS Forester, with the Hornblower series. Built out of single historical ship engagements, with characters that undoubtably spoke to his own fantasies and his own experiences, in a way that is both historically accurate and wildly improbable - but believable and uunderstandable. O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series, likewise. So writing a character that it part fantasy wish-fulfilment or part self-exploration of personality is well established (acting, composition, etc. have the same schools of thought, as well as their diametric opposites). And blending historical or fantasy backstory into the effort is demanded in this setting, obviously (well, not completely - someone has a set of Jedi kits out there for BG2).
What designates Billy-Bob or Mary-Sue for me has nothing to do with the author's fantasies, or the author's intent, and can't be "written for" or "written against" any more than the next great novel can be created by taking online courses and attending "So You Want To Be An Author" talks at the book shop. What pushes the person to write is not really pertinent. The overbearing stats, wild Half-Dragon Half-Nymph Daughter of Minerva background, the uuber-items, everything like that are warning signs and symptoms of wish-fulfillment and potential imbalance in storytelling, just like when the trailer says "The Greatest BlockBuster of 2008". But they are not the root of the problem, just the sniffles and coughs that alert folks to the potential of a problem.
It is back to the good old "suspension of disbelief" quotient. Does the character jump out and *make* me want to play through? Do I willingly accept the character's existence, or do I find myself saying "come on.. no way". Or worse, "Hmmm. How come his THAC0 is so low"?
I think the problem that MarySue/Stu/BillyBob really represents is the difficulty faced by FanFic of any kind in any setting. People want to write for the world their imagination has found exciting and welcoming. They don't have the skills or training to do it professionally, or they wouldn't have time to do so. They are expanding a world that already exists, and is already filled with other people's ideas of what fits and doesn't fit. Most of all, very very few folks pick up and try their hand at the storytelling - and then, because it is a labor of love and personal expression, it is tough to tell them, hey - you do realize that for every Rowling/Niven/Lewis/Pornelle/Prachett there are thousands upon thousands of writers who are paid for their work, only to find themselves the fine posessor of a bunch of books to hand out at parties, a meager one liner in the trades that says "ok - it sucked" and a very small residual check. Guess what. Your hobby work is uninteresting, insipid, massively stereotyped, and completely uninteresting. Plus filled with spelling errors and grammar that would make an ape wince.
Basically, writing an NPC can aspire to be great storytelling. But the formulas and fashions of a modding community change - good writing does not. Unfortunately, getting a "best seller" *starts* with good writing, and goes upwards from there. And 99.9% of us will never reach better than "ok, for an amateur". But it could be worse. We could be writing music, instead...
(p.s. - I make tons of typos, so please take this as a "laugh with me" moment, please, OP, not an attack or ridicule...
I would rephrase as
A depressingly large number of people that were born to and raised by English-speaking parents in an English-speaking country don't know how to speak or write English, so there's no shame in making mistakes if you're a non-native English-speaker.
or better
A large number of people born and raised in english speaking households speak and write the language incorrectly, so there is no shame in making mistakes with language.
or even better
There is no shame in making mistakes in english grammar or spelling, for many native english speakers
Or
The words, flowing, entropy finds... in close attention, the details resolve. No shame comes to the writer who seeks the truth of community, and the amity of nations.
Or,
Yo. We be speakin', cuz. It's all good. Don't schizzle th' fizzle. Word.
You guys have a good month. See you in a bit.
What designates Billy-Bob or Mary-Sue for me has nothing to do with the author's fantasies, or the author's intent, and can't be "written for" or "written against" any more than the next great novel can be created by taking online courses and attending "So You Want To Be An Author" talks at the book shop. What pushes the person to write is not really pertinent. The overbearing stats, wild Half-Dragon Half-Nymph Daughter of Minerva background, the uuber-items, everything like that are warning signs and symptoms of wish-fulfillment and potential imbalance in storytelling, just like when the trailer says "The Greatest BlockBuster of 2008". But they are not the root of the problem, just the sniffles and coughs that alert folks to the potential of a problem.
It is back to the good old "suspension of disbelief" quotient. Does the character jump out and *make* me want to play through? Do I willingly accept the character's existence, or do I find myself saying "come on.. no way". Or worse, "Hmmm. How come his THAC0 is so low"?
I think the problem that MarySue/Stu/BillyBob really represents is the difficulty faced by FanFic of any kind in any setting. People want to write for the world their imagination has found exciting and welcoming. They don't have the skills or training to do it professionally, or they wouldn't have time to do so. They are expanding a world that already exists, and is already filled with other people's ideas of what fits and doesn't fit. Most of all, very very few folks pick up and try their hand at the storytelling - and then, because it is a labor of love and personal expression, it is tough to tell them, hey - you do realize that for every Rowling/Niven/Lewis/Pornelle/Prachett there are thousands upon thousands of writers who are paid for their work, only to find themselves the fine posessor of a bunch of books to hand out at parties, a meager one liner in the trades that says "ok - it sucked" and a very small residual check. Guess what. Your hobby work is uninteresting, insipid, massively stereotyped, and completely uninteresting. Plus filled with spelling errors and grammar that would make an ape wince.
Basically, writing an NPC can aspire to be great storytelling. But the formulas and fashions of a modding community change - good writing does not. Unfortunately, getting a "best seller" *starts* with good writing, and goes upwards from there. And 99.9% of us will never reach better than "ok, for an amateur". But it could be worse. We could be writing music, instead...
(p.s. - I make tons of typos, so please take this as a "laugh with me" moment, please, OP, not an attack or ridicule...
Quote
A depressing number of people that were born to and raised by English-speaking parents in an English-speaking country don't know how to speak or write good English, so there's no shame in making mistakes if you're a non-native.
I would rephrase as
A depressingly large number of people that were born to and raised by English-speaking parents in an English-speaking country don't know how to speak or write English, so there's no shame in making mistakes if you're a non-native English-speaker.
or better
A large number of people born and raised in english speaking households speak and write the language incorrectly, so there is no shame in making mistakes with language.
or even better
There is no shame in making mistakes in english grammar or spelling, for many native english speakers
Or
The words, flowing, entropy finds... in close attention, the details resolve. No shame comes to the writer who seeks the truth of community, and the amity of nations.
Or,
Yo. We be speakin', cuz. It's all good. Don't schizzle th' fizzle. Word.
You guys have a good month. See you in a bit.
Posted by: jcompton
« on: June 30, 2008, 07:19:38 PM »Personally, I see nothing wrong with either technique--provided that they are used simply to give the characters a more unique, flavorful identity, and not to use them as ersatz voodoo dolls, to enact in fanfiction mode what you would like to happen in real life.
But how do you judge such a thing? And does it matter? If so, why?
Let's use a real example. It's pretty widely accepted and understood that Roger Zelazny's immortal-chainsmoking-fencing-womanizing protagonist, as best (but by no means exclusively) exhibited through Corwin of Amber, represents many facets of his own personality, skillset, interests, etc.
So, is it important to know if Zelazny wrote about chainsmoking fencing womanizers because he simply knew a lot about being one, or because he aspired to personally have tremendous powers of regeneration, command over the fabric of reality, a really hot if-only-she-wasn't-my-sister sister, etc. etc.? Does it diminish Corwin (and friends) if in some way the author lived vicariously through a character type which was a superhuman projection of himself?