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Topic Summary

Posted by: Sam.
« on: October 01, 2015, 11:30:21 AM »

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression that the items in question are intended to be balanced to match the available equipment; so that they are similar in damage output, perhaps offer a semi-useful ability just for kicks, but are "blink blink" at the same time! Cosmetic effects and some cool backstory simply to provide alternatives to the existing weapons.

Nothing in the original suggestion says that. Sam explicitly called for using STAF11 and STAF12 from BG2 for Ulraunt's and Thalantyr's staffs (i.e., the Staff of the Magi and Staff of Power), not low-power versions of those items. He even later said they "should have their canon equipment." That would mean BG2-power level items in BG1.
AstroBryGuy is correct in that my preference is to give these characters their canon, non-watered-down equipment.  However, just because that was my original suggestion doesn't mean that is the only option here.  If this ship has already sunk (and there is no interest in including this in UB in any form), please just explicitly call it so I know to quit bailing.  Otherwise, I can think of several different implementation options for each item in my OP:

1)   Add the item in its canon, non-watered-down form to its owner, and if a player has no interest in this added content or is worried that these items would break the balance of the game, they may simply A) not install this particular component, or (in this case) B) not kill characters that were not intended to be killed in the first place for items that he/she don't want.  [This does not seem like a popular option.]
2)   Add a BG1-balanced version of the item to its owner, and provide a mechanism for unlocking its full power later in BGT/TuTu/BGEET games.  [more on this below]
3)   Only add the BG-1 balanced version of the item to its owner.
4)   Add an undroppable and unstealable version of the item to its owner, primarily for the aesthetic value.
5)   Do nothing.

[below]
The description for the BG-1 balanced version of the item could contain a line or too that says how the staff hums slightly when held in your hand, almost as if even greater power is held within, but that you are unable to fully access it.  It must be either keyed to a specific user, or require a word of power that cannot be discerned using normal magical means.  So as not to stray too far from UB's intent, any mechanism to unlock the full power of the item should be easily implemented and require little maintenance.  My thought was to add a one-time wish to the Limited Wish spell.  You could have Dao "unlock the full power of one of my magic items".  If the caster's stats fall below whatever minimum requirements, they receive an unfavorable interpretation of the wish, causing the "full power" to be "unlocked" in a magical explosion equivalent to breaking the staff and having all the charges go off simultaneously (directed at the caster) and the item being destroyed.  Otherwise the BG-1 balanced version of the item is replaced with the BG2 version.  This way, in order to get the high-level equipment, the player would have to defeat a very difficult opponent, suffer the reputation penalty, risk other people in the area turning hostile, lose access to any further quests/stores/services offered by that person, keep the item through the transition to BG2, play far enough into BG2 to acquire a Limited Wish scroll, either use up a high-level scroll or wait until they have a character capable of memorizing and casting a 7th level spell, and have high enough stats to receive a favorable interpretation of the wish.
Posted by: AstroBryGuy
« on: September 23, 2015, 10:38:19 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression that the items in question are intended to be balanced to match the available equipment; so that they are similar in damage output, perhaps offer a semi-useful ability just for kicks, but are "blink blink" at the same time! Cosmetic effects and some cool backstory simply to provide alternatives to the existing weapons.

Nothing in the original suggestion says that. Sam explicitly called for using STAF11 and STAF12 from BG2 for Ulraunt's and Thalantyr's staffs (i.e., the Staff of the Magi and Staff of Power), not low-power versions of those items. He even later said they "should have their canon equipment." That would mean BG2-power level items in BG1.

Quote from: Sam
My guess would be that the game developers and writers wrote the Manual and then had to go back and tweak/update/improve the spells, but ran out of time or money to update the Manual accordingly.  Conversely, I don't think they would have included the descriptions about these characters' equipment in the Manual if they didn't intent to incorporate it into the game, but obviously they never got around to it (for whatever reason, my guess being time and money).

The descriptions of the notable characters are simply copy-pasted from "Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast" which was published in 1994 (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Volo's_Guide_to_the_Sword_Coast). Aside from a couple tweaks, like replacing "orcs" with "gnolls" in the description of Taerom's staff, it's pretty much copied word-for-word - including Elminster's comments. I don't see this as proof of the Bioware's intent to implement items like Ulraunt's Staff of the Magi in BG1. They were just using existing text from TSR to help complete the BG1 manual quickly.
Posted by: Tash
« on: September 23, 2015, 07:40:49 AM »

Those are items. Farting out a staff with a death v. gnolls effect is literally five minutes of work, and most of it is writing a backstory. It seems highly unlikely that they'd have no time.
Come on, Almateria. How long did it take you to work on your mod? It's not that they didn't have time to do that single item -- it's 100s of little stuff like items, spells or sound effects that add up to considerable amount of work. Who cares about the little stuff when it's the deadline and you still have critical bugs to fix? Priorities.


Quote
Also, to recap, this is the staff you want to put in the literal third area available: (...)
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression that the items in question are intended to be balanced to match the available equipment; so that they are similar in damage output, perhaps offer a semi-useful ability just for kicks, but are "blink blink" at the same time! Cosmetic effects and some cool backstory simply to provide alternatives to the existing weapons.
Posted by: Almateria
« on: September 22, 2015, 04:24:23 AM »

Quote
Conversely, I don't think they would have included the descriptions about these characters' equipment in the Manual if they didn't intent to incorporate it into the game, but obviously they never got around to it (for whatever reason, my guess being time and money).
Those are items. Farting out a staff with a death v. gnolls effect is literally five minutes of work, and most of it is writing a backstory. It seems highly unlikely that they'd have no time.

Also, to recap, this is the staff you want to put in the literal third area available:
Quote
Equipped abilities:
– Armor Class: +2
– Saving Throws: +2

Charge abilities:
– Globe of Invulnerability
  Special: Immunity to 1st- through 4th-level spells
  Duration: 1 round/level
  Area of Effect: The user

– Lightning Bolt of Paralyzation
  Damage: 10d6 electrical to all in its path (Save vs. Spell for half)
  Special: Stuns target for 5 rounds
  Range: 100 ft.

THAC0: +2
Damage: 1d6+2 (crushing)
Speed Factor: 1
Posted by: Echon
« on: September 22, 2015, 02:21:33 AM »

Will this component do anything other than adding items to the game that will skew the game balance? Players will find ways to beat these characters and loot them.
No.  Are you implying that every quest mod or mod that adds any items or XP to the game should drastically overhaul all subsequent battles to make them proportionally harder?  If so, then I'm not sure there is a single "balanced" quest or item mod out there, including UB...  EDIT:  My initial thought was no, but I can see where you could add characters' reactions to noticing you using their stolen equipment if you managed to get it without killing them, or Elminster taking a Harper's Pin away from you if you killed someone for one.

No, I am not. Rather, I am "implying" that most mods out there do not add a load of items to the game that should only belong to high-level characters. This is BG2 equipment.

Quote
If not killed, it does not really matter whether they have these items or not.
On the contrary, the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games (including characters, items, storylines, timelines, significant events, locations, political powers, etc.) exist within a (mostly) consistent and contiguous universe that is Forgotten Realms.  My belief is that the original game developers strove to fit the events and characters of their games into the greater Forgotten Realms universe in as synchronous and canon a way as was feasible to implement based on limited resources and time.  It is my belief that the descriptions of these notable characters and the mention of their equipment (found in the BG1 Manual) is an indication of the original game developers' intent to adhere to the established "lore" and precedence already established in the Realms.

I guess that is one way to interpret the manual. Personally I believe they deliberately kept these items out of the game to avoid the hassle of players ruining the balance. Elminster cannot be killed by the players, probably for a reason.

I am all for lore in games like this, but powerful items are not what makes these characters come alive. Their dialogues are. Expand on those if you want to increase the flavour of the game.
Posted by: Cahir
« on: September 21, 2015, 11:59:56 PM »

Sam, since you seem to put a lot of value to the FR lore you may want to follow this mod more closely: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/37704/the-eve-of-war-work-in-progress/p1. I find it super cool and can't wait for it.
Posted by: Sam.
« on: September 21, 2015, 09:07:01 PM »

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond, but I have been busy and the sheer volume of stuff to respond to was a bit daunting…  So anyway, here goes:

Will this component do anything other than adding items to the game that will skew the game balance? Players will find ways to beat these characters and loot them.
No.  Are you implying that every quest mod or mod that adds any items or XP to the game should drastically overhaul all subsequent battles to make them proportionally harder?  If so, then I'm not sure there is a single "balanced" quest or item mod out there, including UB...  EDIT:  My initial thought was no, but I can see where you could add characters' reactions to noticing you using their stolen equipment if you managed to get it without killing them, or Elminster taking a Harper's Pin away from you if you killed someone for one.

If not killed, it does not really matter whether they have these items or not.
On the contrary, the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games (including characters, items, storylines, timelines, significant events, locations, political powers, etc.) exist within a (mostly) consistent and contiguous universe that is Forgotten Realms.  My belief is that the original game developers strove to fit the events and characters of their games into the greater Forgotten Realms universe in as synchronous and canon a way as was feasible to implement based on limited resources and time.  It is my belief that the descriptions of these notable characters and the mention of their equipment (found in the BG1 Manual) is an indication of the original game developers' intent to adhere to the established "lore" and precedence already established in the Realms.

It's what one could call the Final Fantasy paradox: the most difficult enemies in the series have the best loot, but at the same time, they're not the final bosses. If one sticks to the traditional idea of collecting items, all that loot is supposed to help the player in the end-game. And that's the problem! If the player can beat enemies tougher than the final boss, why even bother? Or, "If I have beaten the most powerful monsters without the ultimate loot, should I even keep playing to the end? Isn't that basically it, strictly gameplay- and challenge-wise?"
If I were suggesting adding these items to main "boss-level" enemies that the plot forced you to encounter and defeat, then I would agree this would be a very valid concern.  However, you are not forced into any such confrontation with Taerom, Thalantyr, Ulraunt, etc.  Instead, these are "background" characters that the PC would NOT normally kill.  In fact, killing them for their equipment comes at a cost (unlike any said "boss-level enemies/'bad guys'") of, for example, losing access to their stores AND any powerful or unique equipment you have not yet bought from them, AND a considerable amount of reputation, AND potentially making everyone in the area hostile toward you.  Furthermore, giving these characters their equipment both adds a layer of depth to the game and to these characters, and helps them and the game in general fit more smoothly into the Forgotten Realms universe, as discussed above.

Sam., I hope I understand you correctly: all those suggested items would have collector's value, am I right? There would be a challenge factor, yes, but it doesn't matter how the player acquires these -- it's up to the player -- as the items themselves are there for immersion and attention to detail. There are certain aspects of the game which suggest that the designers really tried to provide those two core-elements, but lacked the time.
Agreed.

In other words, just because Taerom has the best staff in the game, doesn't mean I must gank him at his workshop and loot it. I honestly believe the sheer knowledge of him having the item is what matters to you, Sam., and a number of other BG1 players. Or maybe we're just obsessive-compulsive about these kinds of things.  ;D
Personally, I'm not likely to kill Taerom or Thalantyr for their equipment.  What matters to me is that for the game to fit into the Forgotten Realms universe, these characters should have their canon equipment.  This gives players the option to try to defeat them for their equipment.  Just because you can doesn't mean you have to, but options are important and add depth and replay-ability to the game.

The paradox here is that as I like Sam's idea and share Echon's concerns at the same time. As a FR lore freak I'd love to see those items in game for the sole immersion value it could add to the game. There's a lot of canon stuff you could add to the game as for example Duke Eltan has a tons of serious magic items, like a sentient sword named Roan. If someone decide to add Sam's ideas to the mod I could search my FR books to find what magic items are in possession of NPC's that are in game. I'm pretty sure that most (if not all) of information pointed out by Sam from is taken from 2nd ed. Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast lorebook by whoever wrote BG manual.

Anyway let me know if you want me to dig it out.
If UBs authors decide not to include my suggestion in their mod, I think this would make a great mod all its own.

Also, if the manual was canon, we'd have to fuck up like half of the spells.
My guess would be that the game developers and writers wrote the Manual and then had to go back and tweak/update/improve the spells, but ran out of time or money to update the Manual accordingly.  Conversely, I don't think they would have included the descriptions about these characters' equipment in the Manual if they didn't intent to incorporate it into the game, but obviously they never got around to it (for whatever reason, my guess being time and money).

Perhaps I'm just cynical, but I don't see the "immersion value" (for example) of Taerom just *having* his staff. He wouldn't be carrying it if he's working (he'd have a hammer or some other blacksmith tool), and a 12 foot staff is not something you just strap to your back and walk around with (talk about breaking immersion - Taerom carrying a 12 foot staff around inside his shop - he must have ceilings at least 15 feet tall!). So, the staff would be in a container in his shop. Where's the immersion? The "value" from such a mod would be in getting the items for CHARNAME & Co., i.e., killing Taerom, Thalantyr, etc.. for their items (or stealing them, but how do you pickpocket a 12 foot staff?)
Point taken about the size of his staff, but I could see him hanging it on the wall of his shop while he's working.  There's something to be said for the intimidation factor (against potential thieves) of a nearly 7 foot tall, active, burly giant of a man wielding a famed 12 foot iron staff that he keeps within easy reach.

On the other hand, I still don't see the value of the NPCs just having these items. I think Echon is right. The items are OP for BG1, and adding them just encourages trying to kill these NPCs. If you don't loot the items, what difference do they make?
What's the point of the Demonknight on the 1st level of Durlag's Tower having a Helmet of Opposite Alignment or Winski Perorate in the Duchal Palace having a Ring of Wizardry or being able to acquire The Vampire's Revenge from Ulcaster?  My opinion is that it adds a level of intricacy, depth, challenge, and replayability for players that have already found and seen and done and tried everything else.  And because it's just plain cool!
Posted by: Cahir
« on: September 13, 2015, 04:40:51 AM »

I've been thinking if all this would be a good idea for a EET mod. One of the goals of EET is open the world for modders to create a new high-level stuff for BG1 areas where you can come back at any time of your Trilogy run. What could be indeed OP for a BG1 part of the run would not necessarily be OP when you come back to the old NPC's after let's say Spellhold or Underdark.
Posted by: Tash
« on: September 13, 2015, 04:21:00 AM »

The items are OP for BG1, and adding them just encourages trying to kill these NPCs. If you don't loot the items, what difference do they make?
Yeah, you're right, of course. Someone would have to spend a lot of time balancing them, so that it's not Final Fantasy.

After all, look at all the "guides" on the net on how to abuse the AI to kill Drizzt and take his stuff.
Cheaters! 8)

That's true, but if the items are BG1-balanced and the fights challenging, it would turn out OK. Personally, I'm not going to loot guys like Thalantyr -- I just want to see the blackened staff in his hands. I can imagine Ulraunt holding some kind of a shimmering staff. Cosmetic differences, I know, but soo cool!

Sadly, I don't think a panther in the original BG1 is possible, so BGT/TuTu-only. Unless... a standard kitty anim with darker palette! ;D Go Panthie! Meow! But anyhow, I'd agree on this one: a cool summonable beast is too tempting, and would need more intricate mechanism to work in a non-OP way. I'd skip that one.
Posted by: AstroBryGuy
« on: September 12, 2015, 11:49:39 PM »

Point taken about the lack of realism. ;)

On the other hand, I still don't see the value of the NPCs just having these items. I think Echon is right. The items are OP for BG1, and adding them just encourages trying to kill these NPCs. If you don't loot the items, what difference do they make?

After all, look at all the "guides" on the net on how to abuse the AI to kill Drizzt and take his stuff.
Posted by: Tash
« on: September 12, 2015, 04:37:18 PM »

And how do all your characters carry a dozen weapons, 1000s of arrows, 100s of potions etc. without even a trace of a backpack? You're talking realism, AstroBryGuy. And that's quite a rare commodity in the game, isn't it? There's a level of acceptable ridiculosity, which varies from person to person, but it's usually there.

Anyways, your argument is solid, but that's just Taerom. What about the other famous & unique?
Posted by: AstroBryGuy
« on: September 12, 2015, 03:53:23 PM »

Perhaps I'm just cynical, but I don't see the "immersion value" (for example) of Taerom just *having* his staff. He wouldn't be carrying it if he's working (he'd have a hammer or some other blacksmith tool), and a 12 foot staff is not something you just strap to your back and walk around with (talk about breaking immersion - Taerom carrying a 12 foot staff around inside his shop - he must have ceilings at least 15 feet tall!). So, the staff would be in a container in his shop. Where's the immersion? The "value" from such a mod would be in getting the items for CHARNAME & Co., i.e., killing Taerom, Thalantyr, etc.. for their items (or stealing them, but how do you pickpocket a 12 foot staff?)

Also, there's nothing in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast about Taerom's staff being magical.

Quote
He keeps to himself, working at his forge, but can slay orcs with a single blow of his 12-foot-long iron staff, which does 3d4 points of damage plus his Strength bonuses.

And in Volo's Guide, he's a first level fighter, which is consistent with Taerom's CRE (20 THAC0, 1st level fighter saves, 4 weapon proficiencies, 1 Lore, etc..). They changed orcs to gnolls for the BG1 guide since orcs weren't in the game. So, Taerom's staff should just be a mundane staff that does 3d4 damage due to its weight/size.
Posted by: Almateria
« on: September 12, 2015, 04:31:06 AM »

This really doesn't sound like a task for UB.

Also, if the manual was canon, we'd have to fuck up like half of the spells.
Posted by: Cahir
« on: September 11, 2015, 06:17:12 PM »

The paradox here is that as I like Sam's idea and share Echon's concerns at the same time. As a FR lore freak I'd love to see those items in game for the sole immersion value it could add to the game. There's a lot of canon stuff you could add to the game as for example Duke Eltan has a tons of serious magic items, like a sentient sword named Roan. If someone decide to add Sam's ideas to the mod I could search my FR books to find what magic items are in possession of NPC's that are in game. I'm pretty sure that most (if not all) of information pointed out by Sam from is taken from 2nd ed. Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast lorebook by whoever wrote BG manual.

Anyway let me know if you want me to dig it out.
Posted by: Tash
« on: September 11, 2015, 02:28:44 PM »

It's what one could call the Final Fantasy paradox: the most difficult enemies in the series have the best loot, but at the same time, they're not the final bosses. If one sticks to the traditional idea of collecting items, all that loot is supposed to help the player in the end-game. And that's the problem! If the player can beat enemies tougher than the final boss, why even bother? Or, "If I have beaten the most powerful monsters without the ultimate loot, should I even keep playing to the end? Isn't that basically it, strictly gameplay- and challenge-wise?"

I like Sam.'s ideas. Sam., I hope I understand you correctly: all those suggested items would have collector's value, am I right? There would be a challenge factor, yes, but it doesn't matter how the player acquires these -- it's up to the player -- as the items themselves are there for immersion and attention to detail. There are certain aspects of the game which suggest that the designers really tried to provide those two core-elements, but lacked the time.

In other words, just because Taerom has the best staff in the game, doesn't mean I must gank him at his workshop and loot it. I honestly believe the sheer knowledge of him having the item is what matters to you, Sam., and a number of other BG1 players. Or maybe we're just obsessive-compulsive about these kinds of things.  ;D