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Topic Summary

Posted by: Kish
« on: October 28, 2002, 10:59:31 PM »

One thing just occurred to me.
Never mind liches--that's debatable.  Why is Demogorgon, the most powerful demon prince, vulnerable to weapons that won't hit the Lesser Demon Lord?                    
Posted by: Piker
« on: October 14, 2002, 12:20:08 AM »

Yeah, the one with the Soulstone.  There is some fun literary referencing going on in that plot.                    
Posted by: KaPe
« on: October 14, 2002, 12:12:57 AM »

Ok, now i remember something... Balors in Ascension have permament "aura of flaming death" (and explode when killed :rolleyes:  So why can't a demon-lord have that too? Surely his more powerful than a mere balor? Or those backstabing, vorpal-hiting shadow-thingies... (babau? or sth)
Vangoethe... which one is it? The one in Amkethram?                    
Posted by: weimer
« on: October 13, 2002, 10:34:30 PM »

Vangoethe is a lich in ToB. His Lich form is more powerful than Kangaxx's Lich form: VG is probably the most powerful Lich in the game. His cannot be meaningfully compared to a demilich, however: they do imprisonment over and over again, he does high-level mage spells.                    
Posted by: Assassin
« on: October 13, 2002, 10:03:40 PM »

Just what is Vongoethe?  Is is more powerful than Kangaxx or something?                    
Posted by: Dark Phantom
« on: October 13, 2002, 08:15:29 PM »

could it not be said that this transfermation is due to the PC's bhaal blood? (IF that is the PC you even refer too, I have not played with ascention yet, doing it and several other mods (Improved illych, solfein, Tashia) now.                    
Posted by: Althernai
« on: October 13, 2002, 02:53:01 PM »

I knew what I was getting myself into with that parenthesis, but I wrote it anyway... why?

Quote
Are you sure that Lich immunities are the result of centuries of study and not the result of the soul's talent for manipulating magic taking advantage of a now-personal link with the Negative Material Plane?

If your theory were correct, it would be possible to meat "young liches" that were undead sorcerers without the standard lich powers and defenses. This never really seems to happen. We meet ranges of liches in the game: from the standard lich, to the elemental lich, to kangaxx, to vangeothe. Some of these have *more* powers than the standard lich: none have fewer abilities.

No, I am not sure, but I believe so. Otherwise, what do those centuries of study accomplish? What is the difference between the 'standard lich' and Vongoethe? A Dragon's Breath? A couple of 9th level spells? Nothing Nalia could not achieve in two months - and liches are supposed to be at least as intelligent as she (and probably more). What do they do for entire centuries? Sleep? Some unlife. :)

As to "young liches", it is quite logical that you would not meet any unless you were specifically looking for them (which you are not). They know they are going to get creamed by people like you, so they stay away from places that draw adventurers until they are ready.

Quote
Finally, to address your other comment: that's a valid excuse.

I am not complaining about the compression of the ritual to transform from mortal to lich into under 2 hours - I meant that two hours is a very small time relative to centuries.

Of course, this is all just a theory about a fictional creature.  You are entitled to your own theory with the transformation instantaneously giving the creature lich immunities - all I said was that I find it difficult to believe.                    
Posted by: Althernai
« on: October 13, 2002, 02:03:59 PM »

Quote
That's why "wanna-be" goddes has Ascension... Sure, you can breach her, but it doesn't really matter... And demon lord deserves something better than standard "breach&attack" ...
                   Oh yes it does - there are not that many +6 weapons in the game. She si not that tough - it's her servants that are the challenge.                    
Posted by: weimer
« on: October 13, 2002, 11:56:42 AM »

Are you sure that Lich immunities are the result of centuries of study and not the result of the soul's talent for manipulating magic taking advantage of a now-personal link with the Negative Material Plane?

If your theory were correct, it would be possible to meat "young liches" that were undead sorcerers without the standard lich powers and defenses. This never really seems to happen. We meet ranges of liches in the game: from the standard lich, to the elemental lich, to kangaxx, to vangeothe. Some of these have *more* powers than the standard lich: none have fewer abilities. It would appear that in the BG2 universe, "standard lich" is in fact the youngest variety: a lich springs fully formed from the head of Zeus (wait, wrong fairy tale)  with the canonical powers. Perhaps the trick is in the entrance exam: a sorcerer not powerful enough to get the bonuses immediately upon entering the unlife doesn't become a lich.

Your theory is perfectly plausible for any number of fantasy adventures. I might subscribe to it myself. I would certainly find it "internally consistent" and "externally plausible" as a player. However, there's nothing that requires it to be the case in BG2 or in any particular fantasy adventure.

Finally, to address your other comment: that's a valid excuse. You might also suggest that there is no way Irenicus could strip your soul and give it Bodhi all in the space of a five-minute waking dream. BG2 has already set a standard of compressing quite a few things for the purposes of gameplay. For another example, when I started playing dungeons and dragons there were actual time costs associated with memorizing spells (and they were related to the spell level, if I recall). This would mean that you would be resting for weeks just to recharge Imoen the Archmage. BG2 elides this, or it isn't present in AD&D rules. But it is "more realistic".                      
Posted by: KaPe
« on: October 13, 2002, 11:12:16 AM »

That's why "wanna-be" goddes has Ascension... Sure, you can breach her, but it doesn't really matter... And demon lord deserves something better than standard "breach&attack" ...                    
Posted by: Althernai
« on: October 13, 2002, 10:41:17 AM »

Quote
I think he *should* be immune to level 1-5... After all, liches(imp.) are, and the great demon lord can breached... Sure, liches are powerful, but compared to him, they should die in no time...
No, he shouldn't - you meet a certain wannabe-goddess at the end of ToB - that outranks demogorgon and she is not immune to Breach either. Liches spend entire centuries thinking of ways to resist these spells (which is why, from a storytelling point of view, someone gaining Lich immunities in 2 hours is not very believable). Demogorgon has other business to attend to - ruling his layer of the Abyss, fighting the Blood War, etc. - he is not thinking about spells - what he has just comes to him naturally.                    
Posted by: KaPe
« on: October 13, 2002, 05:32:12 AM »

I think he *should* be immune to level 1-5... After all, liches(imp.) are, and the great demon lord can breached... Sure, liches are powerful, but compared to him, they should die in no time...                    
Posted by: Althernai
« on: October 12, 2002, 11:03:11 PM »

Quote
he is Immune to all Mage spells below 6th level - Pierce Shield is the only thing that works on lowering his magic resistances. Nothing else will work.

He regenerates 3hp/second
Requires a +3 or better weapon to hit
He is Immune to Critical Strikes, deathblows, power attacks, all your "special abilities".
He can summon demons and outer planes demons/creatures as many times as he likes.
He attacks with level drain, he drains 6 levels if you fail your save.
He also attacks you with diseases on every successful strike - its the same as the contagion spell mixed with Delorious Decay its 2hp/second for 1 turn.
He is 95% magic resistant
He has 290 HP
AC -6
THac0 -2

Now this is just the Origianl guy - you mentioned he was "New and Improved" ? LoL why??
Dude, where are you getting this from - some of it is obviously wrong. He is not immune to level 3 spells - Scull Trap works just fine, Breach works too. I think he has 90% MR, not 95% - perfect for Chain Contingency: 3x Pierce Shield. He can't be immune to Critical Strike - it is a function of your character and not of what is being hit. He will not take double damage, but you will hit him every time.                    
Posted by: weimer
« on: October 12, 2002, 09:32:11 PM »

Hold on, now. Weimer said that levels 1 and 2 will fail.

I should have made this more clear -- I did a cursory sweep of his equipped items and permanent effects using Near Infinity. Everything I listed is true, but it may not be exhaustive. For example, he may be immune to level 3 or 4 spells from some effect I didn't notice, or he may be immune to the breach spell specifically, or whatnot. Everything I listed was true, but don't assume it was a complete list. :-)                    
Posted by: Assassin
« on: October 12, 2002, 09:14:35 PM »

Quote
he is Immune to all Mage spells below 6th level - Pierce Shield is the only thing that works on lowering his magic resistances. Nothing else will work.

He regenerates 3hp/second
Requires a +3 or better weapon to hit
He is Immune to Critical Strikes, deathblows, power attacks, all your "special abilities".
He can summon demons and outer planes demons/creatures as many times as he likes.
He attacks with level drain, he drains 6 levels if you fail your save.
He also attacks you with diseases on every successful strike - its the same as the contagion spell mixed with Delorious Decay its 2hp/second for 1 turn.
He is 95% magic resistant
He has 290 HP
AC -6
THac0 -2

Now this is just the Origianl guy - you mentioned he was "New and Improved" ? LoL why??
                   I'll tell you why, at least in my perspective.  3 hp per second wasn't really all that fast; Abi-Dazlim's Horrid Wilting takes down those HP's *fast*. Most characters, just by playing through Watcher's Keep, already have +3 weapons (more likely +5).  Greater Whirlwind still works, and I rarely, if ever, need to use Critical Stikes against him, with a AC of 'only' -6 (I usually have a thac0 of -10 or better by that point).  

Summoning demons isn't that much of a deal; just concentrate on the big dude.  Mordy Swords can keep them off of your back is you're really desperate.  Level drain is fought off by the Amulet of Power. Diseases, likewise, either by the Ring(s) of Gaxx, or by the Periapt Proof against poison.  Besides, he has to hit you in melee for that to happen, and that's a rare chance against me; I usually just keep slinging Skull Traps and Abi-Dazlim's Horrid Wiltings at him.

95% MR?  Not a Problem, expecially considering that most Mages, by that point, are level 20 +, and make sure to put in a triple Pierce Shield Chain Contingency before facing him.  That leaves him with 5 MR.  290 HP goes really quickly.  -6 AC and a thac0 of -2, compared to a character at that point, is almost pitiful.  My Kensage has -5, just with the Robe of Vecna, the Ring of Protection +2, and the Ring of Gaxx.  He also has a thac0 of -6.

I got a lot of practise against enemies with immunities to spells lower than level 6 a lot, especially because I was making a point of killing all of the Liches.  Still, Skull Traps will work.  And weimer even said that spells 3 and up will work, just not those of levels 1 and 2.