Author Topic: Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....  (Read 46059 times)

kozand

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #175 on: March 18, 2003, 10:51:47 AM »
True enough!

Ah well it was good while it lasted.

Unless... Phaere lost some of her memories while she was tortured. Oh how tragic! Ok! Ok! Too forced I know. Sorry for wasting your time.  :P                    

Hendryk

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #176 on: March 18, 2003, 11:35:38 AM »
Quote
True enough!

Ah well it was good while it lasted.

Unless... Phaere lost some of her memories while she was tortured. Oh how tragic! Ok! Ok! Too forced I know. Sorry for wasting your time.  :P
                   Nothing that inspires thought is a waste of time.                    

thecursed

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #177 on: March 18, 2003, 11:37:52 AM »
beat me to it!!                    

kozand

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #178 on: March 18, 2003, 04:49:47 PM »
Thanks. I am trying to do my best since I novelize these series and u are a valuable source of information and creative ideas. If I will use your opinions I will mention your names in credits! :)                    

kozand

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #179 on: March 19, 2003, 10:06:52 AM »
Sola-Phaere reworked

a) In case of Phaere simply loved him, Sola would survive even while matron mother was raging. Because he is allied with a powerful house. Now this would imply he is an outcast or disfavored by his native house. Since he is not evil -like Drizzt.

B) Maybe Sola was about to be eleminated by his native house because powerful Ardulace wanted it and because he was not so evil but of course nobody had known he was Lady E worshiper, not even Phaere had known his alliences (he would be executed immediately however much he be a skilled fighter. Infact this would compel houses to execute him since they would become afraid of his fighter skills). But this would mean submission. So Sola's house allowed him to escape and while Irenicus enticed Suldenessalar war aproaching, he used this opportunity, he couldn't flee because surface attacks meant drow patrols, but Ardulace was concentrating on war and Sola became a new member of second powerful house of Ust Natha! Clever move, since Phaere says "if u were not allied with a powerful house..." -in tavern.

My this suggestion can be implemented to aforementioned speculation:

c) Phaere was about to renounce Lolth not because she knew Sola does not worship Lolth but her love compelled her to do so. Sola did not ask her openly but her love had changed her temporarily. Phaere had become true neutral instead of chaotic evil and due to alignment change she could not had met required Drow Priestess criteria at that time. The loss of her powerful daughter was hard for Ardulace even more so just because she needed favor of Lolth to make war on elves. Yes Sola is the single worshiper and was about to convert her and matron mother intervenes, tortures her. It would still explain Sola's brooding memories and reconsiderations about Phaere after he joins party.

Sola did not have enough time to convert her and he did not have time to tell her his true belief. This saved his life (reread a and b ).

Yes Phaere, his native house, his new powerful house and Matron Ardulace did not know he worships Lady E. But a, b and c could be still consistent and valid.

And another ramification, Phaere was suspecting he could be a Lady Silverhair worshipper. But this was an outrage and she did not have substantial proof. Yes it would be a wise move to get rid of her past, also weakening a rival house and Sola's native house was not so powerful to resist House of Despana afterall. Infact this is why they had supported Phaere-Sola love -in order to become allies of Despanas. And Matron Ardulace did not want this even if Sola-Phaere love would be not geniune. This would weaken matron's position in the city.

But war with surface elves was about to begin, she could not have risked an emmity even with a weaker house lest she could not have mustered whole city as one big army. Meanwhile, after losing Phaere, Sola was not useful for his native house. His house would not want to risk a war with House of Despana in new future. So they wanted to get rid of this not so evil Sola without being asked by Ardulace so Ardulace would not threaten them in future. But killing Sola openly would be a sign of weakness and preserving Sola's life would be preserving a potential renegade enemy of House of Despana. So they allowed him to go and become member of one of the powerful houses of Ust-Natha. This house accepted Sola because through Phaere he knew inner Despana politics.

Later Phaere got captured by illithids. This was an oppontunity for Matron Ardulace. She wanted to control Sola and eventually kill him in action, without causing any fuss. An open assanitaion would be an open emmity with his new powerful house and with his native house to a certain degree. But Sola is a well known skilled fighter mage and thru Phaere's influence he had become head of male fighter society. In order to weaken both houses Ardulace asked Sola to help Phaere. Afterall and while war was looming how one could refuse to aid her? And Sola's new house was planing to obtain a favor from Despana's in future. So they forced Sola to personally help and Sola, in order not lose his barely found new secure position, could not do anything but help and at that time he still loved Phaere. And Phaere, after being rescued, has been urged by her mother to kill Sola secretly to prove her newly strengthened allience with Lolth. Phaere was eager to kill him to get rid of her past once and for all and to survive her mother's wrath so...

enough intrigue for drow hm?

And while Sola broods on her past he can tell PC these plots and maybe thru speaking PC he may become aware of lose plot ends which they had evaded him during all that war and while he was still angry for Phaere and loving her anyway. Besides maybe Sola began to hate Phaere truely by reacting her plots. How she was using party, trying to kill gnomes, manipulating Sola during beholder event and finally eggs.... This could be the very begining of Sola's affection felt toward PC.
                   

thecursed

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #180 on: March 19, 2003, 10:08:35 AM »
*wistles* you've been busy!! one ting i need explained: solas' attraction to the pc is due to the pc saving him? considering the resoursfullness of the drow, he could have escaped. don't forget he was expecting an assassination.                    



[!--EDIT|thecursed|Mar 19 2003, 05:13 PM--]

kozand

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #181 on: March 19, 2003, 11:28:21 AM »
Verry good point friend!

Infact it is but ever considered why? While Solaufein had begun hating Phaere and while his life was in peril because of Ardulace's schemes he finds this PC. A very atractive drow avatar at first, beautiful damn sexy drow. Then he learns she is not drow and at that instant drow illusion is dispelled in his eyes only and saw this very sexy human or whatever PC. And for a while, before offering his service to PC he compares drow avatar PC and real PC so to speak and this is further atractive and mysterious. Please exploit this, he did not know what PC looked liked at first after all! Maybe modifying Sola pwafi cloak conversation and adding a line like "Wow your real self is more fair I... I did not know..." would be good!  :D                    

thecursed

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #182 on: March 19, 2003, 11:42:57 AM »
this bring up a new question: how does sola recognise the PC topside? it is not until he joins the party that he learns of avalons' ploy.                    

Hendryk

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #183 on: March 19, 2003, 12:19:47 PM »
In ver 9.5 at least he meets you just outside Ust Natha.  If you let him join there, he goes with you to Adalon's lair and sees the illusion dispelled, so no problem there.  

It's if you just tell him to meet you topside when meeting him outside of Ust Natha that there's a gap, although if he's keeping an eye on Elhan's camp, he'll note the interrogation and put two and two together.  

Btw, if Sola does accompany you to Adalon's lair, I'd think she might have something to say about the non-illusory drow in front of her.                    

Sphira

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #184 on: March 19, 2003, 01:46:32 PM »
Hrm... one would think Solaufein falls in love with the PC for the PC's mind and/or their heart. Notably, the one PC I use that romances Sola has the grand Charsima stat of 8, while her intellgence and wisdom scores are 19 and 17, respectively.  (Her low charsima is attriubted to the fact she's a loner and doesn't like small talk.)

kozand, I'll take a better look at your suggestions when I can later on today. :)                    

kozand

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #185 on: March 19, 2003, 04:25:35 PM »
Of course Sphira.  :)

Besides...

1 We should create general falling in love circumstences because everybody has a different PC, different stats, class, race, even gender and... a different PC concept.

2 I suggest this. As soon as Solaufein learns PC is a surfacer (when he gives his pwafi to PC) PC drow illusion dispelled for Sola's eyes only.

3 Yes Sphira, Sola should fall in love with PC's mind as u say. Very good point. Because Sola is a brooding philosopher not a Casanova ok. But consider this avatar illusion dispelled possibility. There is no need for Sola spying Adalon's lair while party avatars restored. And it would add a mystical element. He suddenly sees PC with his own eyes. His perception changes: "So this is how u like but u are even more wonderful in my eyes."

                   

thecursed

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #186 on: March 19, 2003, 04:32:38 PM »
we could have sola spying on the group, and noticing the change in adalons lair. but he'd have to be good to sneek past a dragon...                    

kozand

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #187 on: March 19, 2003, 04:57:09 PM »
That is a possibility yes. Detective Sola.                    

Sphira

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #188 on: March 19, 2003, 05:57:38 PM »
Well, while I do like the idea of the Ilithids being a way to assinsate Solaufein and Phaere was about to renouce Lolth... I've noticed a few things....

A] If Solaufein was ousted from his house and adopted into a new one, would he still be able to hold onto the male fighter's guild leader (notably reserved for sons of Matron Mothers)? If he got that postion after Phaere turned, would it still be possible for him to even reach that postion?

B] Why didn't his house kill him out right? If that one drow is killed by his own mother because he killed a well trained slave (when you first enter the city), then Solaufein certianlly will. He's strong but the Handmaidens or Matron of his household should be stronger.


I'm really sorry to even have these questions because you worked hard and came up with good ideas. :(

                   

Hendryk

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #189 on: March 19, 2003, 06:07:42 PM »
True enough - if Sola had done something that offended the Matron of his own house.  If the offense was only to Despana, then keeping him alive and even promoting him would be essential to his house; to kill him would be a symbolic submission to Despana.                    

Dashael

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #190 on: March 19, 2003, 06:58:59 PM »
Quote
A] If Solaufein was ousted from his house and adopted into a new one, would he still be able to hold onto the male fighter's guild leader (notably reserved for sons of Matron Mothers)? If he got that postion after Phaere turned, would it still be possible for him to even reach that postion?

Did Ardulace actually have any sons? Could be Sola was allowed to take and hold the position, not just because he was the most qualified, but that there were none in Despana qualified for the job. Possibly he was able to keep the job through a succession of trials by combat whenever someone felt uppity enough to make a play for his job.

Quote
B] Why didn't his house kill him out right? If that one drow is killed by his own mother because he killed a well trained slave (when you first enter the city), then Solaufein certianlly will. He's strong but the Handmaidens or Matron of his household should be stronger.

Firstly Sola represents a much more forbiddible challenge than that one drow, secondly but of equal importance he's also an asset alive. Although as you suggest Leader of the Male Fighter's Guild, might be an inherited position, he'd be hard to replace, and would seem to all outward appearances to be toe-ing the line.                    



[!--EDIT|Dashael|Mar 20 2003, 11:00 AM--]

kozand

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #191 on: March 19, 2003, 07:03:29 PM »
I give your answers right away. I re-quote some of my earlier posts' sentences here.

Re-Reworked!

WHY SOLA IS NOT KILLED WHILE HE WAS MEMBER OF HIS NATIVE HOUSE AND WHY SOLA SURVIVED WHILE HE WAS MEMBER OF HIS NEW POWERFUL HOUSE AND WHY SOLA RETAINED HIS RANK AND POSITION ALL THE WHILE?

And another ramification, Phaere was suspecting he could be a Lady Silverhair worshipper. But this was an outrage and she did not have substantial proof. Yes it would be a wise move to get rid of her past, also weakening a rival house and Sola's native house was not so powerful to resist House of Despana afterall. Infact this is why they had supported Phaere-Sola love -in order to become allies of Despanas. And as soon as Sola's influence over Phaere became obvious (not the otherwise) Matron Ardulace did not want Sola-Phaere love blossom even if said love was not geniune. It was obvious Sola was controlling Phaere but Matron had hoped Phaere would control Sola and his native house. So allowing Phare loves Sola would weaken matron's position in the city.

"But this would mean submission (killing Sola). So Sola's house allowed him to escape and while Irenicus enticed Suldenessalar war aproaching, he used this opportunity, he couldn't flee because surface attacks meant drow patrols, but Ardulace was concentrating on war and Sola became a new member of second powerful house of Ust Natha! Clever move, since Phaere says "if u were not allied with a powerful house..." -in tavern."


But war with surface elves was about to begin, Ardulace could not have risked an emmity even with a weaker house lest she could not have mustered whole city as one big army. Meanwhile, after losing Phaere, Sola was not useful for his native house. His house would not want to risk a war with House of Despana in new future. So they wanted to get rid of this already not so evil Sola without being asked by Ardulace so Ardulace would not threaten them in future. But killing Sola openly would be a sign of weakness and preserving Sola's life would be preserving a potential renegade enemy of House of Despana. So they allowed him to go and become member of one of the powerful houses of Ust-Natha. This house accepted Sola because through Phaere he knew inner Despana politics. Meanwhile Ardulace partially achived her goal even before she asked to be done by Sola's native house. Sola and Phaere got seperated and at the same time Sola left his native house. But something unexpected happened: Ardulace hoped to control Sola by forcefully admiting him into her house and when new demon would be summoned she would get rid of him and make demon army commander in his place. But Sola persuaded a powerful rival house -all too willing to rival Ardulace- and became of said house's member. Therefore Ardulace is forced to plot another demise for Sola. Killing him outright was NOT possible anymore and now Sola was out of her and his native house's control.

"Later Phaere got captured by illithids. This was an oppontunity for Matron Ardulace. She wanted to control Sola and eventually kill him in action, without causing any fuss (remember how Sola told party not to kill him accidentally while they were preparing to kill that beholder). And in order to rescue Phaere she needed Sola be alive!  Besides an open assasination would be an open emmity with his new powerful house and with his native house to a certain degree. But Sola is a well known skilled fighter mage and thru Phaere's influence he had preserved his position as head of male fighter society. In order to weaken both houses Ardulace asked Sola to help Phaere. Afterall and while war was looming how one could refuse to aid her? And Sola's new house was planing to obtain a favor from Despana's in future (his new house forced him to help Despana unwillingly in order to indebt Ardulace to themselves) and commander of drow army must answer to ruling houses anyway! So they forced Sola to personally help and Sola, in order to not lose his barely found new secure position, could not do anything but help and at that time he still loved Phaere. And Phaere, after being rescued, has been urged by her mother to kill Sola secretly to prove her newly strengthened allience with Lolth. Phaere was eager to kill him to get rid of her past once and for all and to survive her mother's wrath so..."

results:

1 Sola is not killed OUTRIGHT by his family because his native house wanted to preserve him as a renegade outcast and a Despana antogonist. Killing him would have meant total submission to Despana will. But releasing him would be a soothing compromise given to house Despana and Sola would still be a pain in the ass of Despanas.

2 Ardulace would not risk an open civil war while she was about to make war on elves so she DID not insist on killing Sola. Besides Sola had became new member of a powerful house.

3 This new house adopted Sola as a son to weaken Ardulace further by keeping him alive.

4 Sola's fighter talents helped him to be accepted to his new house.

5 Sola was ALREADY head of male fighter society; even before he was 'strategically allowed to go his own way' by his native house. And this is why his exile meant a still soothing submission given to House Despana. His native house lost Sola, a political game figure as being head of male fighter society.

6 His new house wanted him because a) he knew Despana house via Phaere, B) he is a fighter mage, c) he was the head honcho of male fighter society at that time.

So:

i) Native house was unwilling to kill Sola just to refuse Ardulace's request.

ii) His native house hoped Sola would not fight against them in future because he is not killed by them and would be grateful even if only for strategical and political reasons.

iii) New powerful house did not kill Sola because it needed his talents, lore and position/rank. New house would prevent Phaere and Ardulace to strip Sola of his rank. And this would not have happened since even House Despana needed and army commander until they summon the new one: Lesser Demon Lord.

iv) Phaere did not have proof to prove Sola's guilt: Lady E worshipper.

v) Ardulace did not kill Sola. He needed him during war, at least until she would summon demon lord, Sola would be a good commander to continue to strike elves. Also killing Sola openly would cause dissent in rival houses now. Because every house would want to profit from any possible skirmish between House Despana, Sola's new powerful house (powerful enough to deter Ardulace killing him openly) and Sola's native house. Civil war would weaken Ardulace. Even Ardulace would not risk to fight both his native and new house at the same time just in order to get rid of Sola. Not even during peace time.

vi) Why Sola is not killed when he was member of his native house? Well, he was male fighter society's commander and valuable asset of his native house. He was Phaere's lover and at first Phaere used her influence to protect him. Ardulace was pleased at first until she knew Phaere's Lolth belief was faltering of course. Even Ardulace once thought Sola would be a great ally and a worthy husband for Phaere.

vii) Finally, Ardulace needed Sola to help party. Sola's guidence needed to guide and lead party in this unfamiliar territory since drow live in independent city states. Example: Gnome helmet quest.

result of result: Sola got his position as head honcho before Phaere relationship.                    



[!--EDIT|kozand|Mar 20 2003, 06:24 AM--]

kozand

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #192 on: March 19, 2003, 07:11:12 PM »
Thank u Dashael manl! Your second answer summerised my long post and your first answer is another very good cause for Sola to be alive. Though I think his new house and his position alone are enough to protect him.

Ardulace did not have subtantial proof or reason to kill him outright! What she would say? "I kill our best commander and member of second powerful house in time of war because my girl has fallen in love with him?" And wat about House of Despana's reputation then? House of a weak handmaiden called Phaere? No! Ardulace is forced to keep their love as secret as possible. At least she tried not to publicize it since Sola's native house knew this romance. And killing him while not violating traditions/rules would be to find somebody to challange him for being new head of male fighter society. No house would allow Ardulace to act at her whim. Simply for weakening her! So Ardulace bided her time to kill him secretly and for God's sake friends, Phaere tried to kill him at the end (pwafi cloak quest)!
No more inconsistency here.  

And Sola is MUCH more valuable then a simple slave and an anonymous matron son. Actually I think all these slave and son killing sequences in BG2 are a bit exagerated. Even drow would not be so vain to destroy their own resources. But for the sake of consistency with official campaign we should take account such things for sure.

I thank everybody. Yes u criticise me but I come up with even better ideas! Your feedback is valuable!  :lol:  :)

Friends if u are confused please don't forget to re-read my post on 6th page of this thread. I slightly modified said post on my previous post on this page. But the post on the 6th page has some speculation which is not re-mentioned on this page. Combine my last and previous long posts and this time my suggestions are consistent.                    



[!--EDIT|kozand|Mar 20 2003, 06:42 AM--]

Sphira

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #193 on: March 19, 2003, 07:44:40 PM »
Okay, working with lots of suggestions from kozan I've become up with a few things

1) His native house 'prostituted' Solaufein's fighting skills out for their protection. Only a few males would know that Solaufein knows magic. He was taught magic in secert due to his own curioisty. Perhaps few of the men at Sola's new house (do we have to make a name for this one too?) knew about his magic and put in a good word. Due to this alliance, Solaufein is safe as his house. However each house is located in Ust Natha.

2) Adulance did not kill Solaufein due to his protection and to twist him around further with his doomed relationship with Phaere. That's a much more suitable punishment than death and it keeps Phaere away from scheeming about her death in Adulace's mind.

3) Solaufein's postion was more or less to keep 'order' around the city, not to lead the attack of the elves unless if the drow were going to totally lose. They were already at war when the PC comes and if Solaufein lead troops on the surface, he wouldn't be there.

4) The demon is more or less there to kill Jon-Bon and to wipe out any other surface elves.

5) Phaere suspected Solaufein didn't worship Lolth but had no real way to kill with out true proof due to her rank. She wasn't a handmaiden yet nor matron mother.

6) Solaufein's native house did NOT want to have Solaufein killed, because if he dies, the alliance dies and they're pretty weak.                    

kozand

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #194 on: March 19, 2003, 07:54:55 PM »
Okay, working with lots of suggestions from kozan I've become up with a few things

1) His native house 'prostituted' Solaufein's fighting skills out for their protection. Only a few males would know that Solaufein knows magic. He was taught magic in secert due to his own curioisty. Perhaps few of the men at Sola's new house (do we have to make a name for this one too?) knew about his magic and put in a good word. Due to this alliance, Solaufein is safe as his house. However each house is located in Ust Natha. A) A NEW NAME FOR HIS NEW HOUSE YES. B) IN DROW SOCIETY WIZARDS ARE MALES THOUGH FIGHTER MAGES COULD BE A RARITY. AN INTERESTING, ORIGINAL SOLA TRAIT AND DROW MALE PAST. INGENOUS MY FRIEND!

2) Adulance did not kill Solaufein due to his protection and to twist him around further with his doomed relationship with Phaere. That's a much more suitable punishment than death and it keeps Phaere away from scheeming about her death in Adulace's mind. VERY GOOD IDEA CONGRATS!

3) Solaufein's postion was more or less to keep 'order' around the city, not to lead the attack of the elves unless if the drow were going to totally lose. They were already at war when the PC comes and if Solaufein lead troops on the surface, he wouldn't be there. HE WAS ORGANIZING BUT NOT LEADING SURFACE ATTACKS TOO. LOGISTICS ECT.

4) The demon is more or less there to kill Jon-Bon and to wipe out any other surface elves. BUT IT WOULD REPLACE SOLA ANYWAY SINCE THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR SOLA AND ARDULACE WOULD BE FREE TO KILL HIM. BESIDES THE REAL, MAIN BATTLE WOULD BEGIN AND THE HOUSES WOULD BE BUSY TO KILL ELVES FORGETTING SOLA AND SCHEMES.

5) Phaere suspected Solaufein didn't worship Lolth but had no real way to kill with out true proof due to her rank. She wasn't a handmaiden yet nor matron mother. INTERESTING SO U ARE SAYING PHAERE BECAME A HANDMAIDEN BY RECENTLY KILLING HER LAST RIVAL SISTER AND AFTER BEING TOTALLY CONVERTED TO LOLTH VIA TORTURE. GOOD POINT.

6) Solaufein's native house did NOT want to have Solaufein killed, because if he dies, the alliance dies and they're pretty weak.  YUP! LIVING SOLA MEANS LIVING DESPANA ENEMY. KILLING HIM WOULD MEANT SUBMISSION.                    



[!--EDIT|kozand|Mar 20 2003, 06:59 AM--]

Sphira

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #195 on: March 19, 2003, 07:59:10 PM »
Cool! ^_^ Thanks for clearning your suggestions up, too! Glad we're seeing eye to eye on stuff now! *gives a cookie to kozand in celebration!*

And I forgot about tatics. :rolleyes: Silly me. Thanks for reminding me. :)
                   

kozand

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #196 on: March 19, 2003, 08:01:56 PM »
Bites his cookie, finds it delicious, thanks the fair lady, claps his hands cheerfully and offers some danish cake and turkish coffee.

 :rolleyes:  :)  :P  :lol:  :D                    

kozand

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #197 on: March 19, 2003, 08:03:48 PM »
I can't wait to contribute dialogue writing now! I guess my english is enough.

Oh I get ahead of myself but I would love to! Please?  :lol:  :P  :)                    

Sphira

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Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #198 on: March 19, 2003, 08:07:08 PM »
Well, this has been a pet project in some respects for me, but perhaps we can work together? :)                    

kozand

  • Guest
Solaufein and Phaere sittin' In a tree....
« Reply #199 on: March 19, 2003, 08:13:09 PM »
I would love to! I am professional translator. I speak turkish, english, italian and latin. I am translating DMG core rulebook in turkish! I can help u if u would but accept me! It is my job -I mean writing and all. Besides dear Sphira I am novelizing BG series so I am seriously involved with it. I wrote 2 volumes and a total of 900 pages already!

Any BG2 mod u can think of by starting Sola, I would like to help u. I love creating things!                    

 

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