why Solaufein?

[jcompton]

Now, the bonus question is, "Wes, did you ever really expect anyone to use WeiDU besides yourself?"

The existence of documentation in Weimer DC prehistory would tend to suggest "yes" but only to the untrained eye who doesn't realize that documentation is part and parcel of Unix geekery, regardless of known or expected userbase.                    

[weimer]

First, I would like to thank the fine agency of Compton & Crompton for working this appearance into its flagship client's tight schedule.

If he sends enough email to me, I eventually notice.  :-)

So now that you're on v95 of Solaufein, what do you think is the answer to this question?

*Yes*, it is very easy for an average programmer to create non-buggy romance (given the right tools and a good understanding of concurrent programming and race conditions).

At least half of the Solaufein updates are because of new features, not because of crippling bugs. Many others were because of "associated" mods (e.g., basically all of Tactics).

Actually, the only really buggy romance was Jaheira's, and it's also considerably longer than Solaufein's. Forgivable?

Here are some examples of actual Sola bug fixes in v52:

Code: [Select]

       * Fix yet another Sola dialogue loop.
        * Fix a bug where Sola would never have the children talk.
They both illustrate the essential character differences between Jaheira romance bugs and Solaufein romance bugs. There is basically one type of Jaheira romance bug: the romance stops for some reason (but you can't really tell). Solaufein's bugs tend to be of two forms: either he skips something that I had hoped for you to see, but the rest of the world works fine (second case, above) or some obscure set of circumstances causes the game to crash/stall right away (first one, above). I prefer both of these to the Jaheira failure modes. Either you continue in a degraded mode but most of the services are still available *or* you stop right away and don't waste time.  
 
Finally, I don't really think it's true any longer that Jaheira is "considerably longer" than Solaufein. They're about the same size.

That's interesting. Which parts didn't you like? Presumably the bits that you tried to remedy by adding a remorse track.

Actually, not really :-). I personally disagree with about 90% of the statements that get the "remorse" counter bumped up. While not, shall we say, out-and-out evil ... I tend to take a more restricted (almost contractual) view of responsibility. Unfortunately, I'm not 100% in accordance with the pragma track either. It was an early design decision: do I make Solaufein into Weimer (no-Fein, just Weimer), in that if you make a response that I disagree with, he disagrees as well? The conclusion was: no, allow the players to do whatever they want. Experience would indicate that romancing Weimer lacks a certain mass-market appeal.

Wow. That concept sounds positively prehistoric.

We've already had the WeiDU centennial trip down memory lane, but I'll encourage the oldbies to come out of the woodwork and back me up here: this predates TDD ... there just weren't that many (any?) mods available for BG2. Dark Side of the Sword Coast was still a hotly debated topic. There was that highly-touted, never-appearing Mage Duel mod for BG2 (did that ever materialize? anyone?). So basically the only things you could get were TBG files containing seriously unbalanced items (and since I'm saying unbalanced, you know they had to be *waaay* out there :-)) that had to be CLUAConsole'd into the game. That was it from the TeamBG side. There were also a bunch of script improvements from the IEAIIS guys ... but they practiced the same stealth marketing technique that I usually employ, so I hadn't really heard about them. In addition (bonus fun points!) I still thought the game was "sufficiently challenging" at that point. I wanted Solaufein to have tougher fights than the Jaheira/Viconia straw men, but I was a "normal difficulty, full-six-party, multiple reloads, ages + fury + carso and still dying" sort of player for a bit there. Somewhere during that summer internship where I was working on the dialogue for Solaufein (in a raw text file because IDU kept crashing or corrupting things) in the evenings (alternating with hosting dinner parties, going to bridge games, watching Anne of Green Gables on the PBS begathon and walking along the river trail) I finally started to get the hand of tactics and decided to beef up the revenge spiders a bit and make Archryssa a solo challenge, etc.

How sweet! Just for that, I'll send you a banter.

I look forward to it.                    

[Kiki]

If he sends enough email to me, I eventually notice.  :-)

Ah, you are the most dreaded client type of all, the uncooperative what's-the-point-of-publicity kind.

I prefer both of these to the Jaheira failure modes. Either you continue in a degraded mode but most of the services are still available *or* you stop right away and don't waste time.

Well, when you put it that way, I'd have to agree.

The conclusion was: no, allow the players to do whatever they want.

It would be more in keeping with Solaufein's character if this were not true. But that's water under a bridge that was burned long ago.

Finally, I don't really think it's true any longer that Jaheira is "considerably longer" than Solaufein. They're about the same size.

The Solaufein mod may have more actual text or whatever, but it certainly seems to take forever to get through the Jaheira romance, and people seem to get hung up on LT 52 all the time, which would mean at least 26 dialogues (] # of Solaufein LTs). Non-romance, I know it took forever to get the harper pin.

Experience would indicate that romancing Weimer lacks a certain mass-market appeal.

Um, did you mean to say Weimerfein here? Or are you suffering from self-esteem issues?

Edit: OK, I see what you were saying. But then, you'd think an arrogant (stemming from deep-seated, childhood-based insecurity, I hasten to add) SOB, or a new widow who starts hitting on you before the sheets are cold, or a whiny elf who's always whimpering about her lost wings would be major turnoffs too--but they aren't for many people. I guess I'd rather deal with someone who had a very clear and defined moral code--maybe you wouldn't agree on everything, but at least you'd respect them in the morning.

So basically the only things you could get were TBG files containing seriously unbalanced items (and since I'm saying unbalanced, you know they had to be *waaay* out there :-))

Whoa. Think I won't bother digging up those.

but I was a "normal difficulty, full-six-party, multiple reloads, ages + fury + carso and still dying" sort of player for a bit there.

This may be the most shocking revelation I've heard yet.

walking along the river trail

Sammamish River Trail? That's a nice one.                    



[!--EDIT|Kiki|Feb 19 2003, 12:59 AM--]

[weimer]

Ah, you are the most dreaded client type of all, the uncooperative what's-the-point-of-publicity kind.

                   Yes, exactly. :-)

It would be more in keeping with Solaufein's character if this were not true. But that's water under a bridge that was burned long ago.

I think (although it is difficult to remember) that one of my motivations was accessibility. If there were only one good way to get through Solaufein most people would not see the final dialogue (if there's a one-third chance of losing the romance with each lovetalk, very few people would survive to 20). I've always been wary of putting too much effort into prose that will never be seen. (Certain notable exceptions, like the old dc/dd documention, clearly apply :-)).

From my perspective, if I'm going to bother putting it out there then I want people to be able to see it. If it's just for me I can favor "perfection" (or whatever I prefer) even if parts of it will never be noticed.

but it certainly seems to take forever to get through the Jaheira romance,

Yes, and that was one of the things I was rebelling against. Solaufein has long included either explicit speed-me-up instructions or a simple one-click method to burn through it all. I think the use of real (wall-clock) timers in the Jaheira romance was an amazing design flaw.  

and people seem to get hung up on LT

Bugs here, bugs there ... :-)  

Experience would indicate that romancing Weimer lacks a certain mass-market appeal.

Um, did you mean to say Weimerfein here? Or are you suffering from self-esteem issues?

I meant to say Weimer and there are no self-esteem issues. Cryptonomicon, Mimi wo Sumaseba and Peter Hamilton aren't for everyone either. That doesn't mean they aren't good! Jerry Springer and Dawson's Creek have mass-market appeal. I'll stick to C.S. Friedman and MST3K. :-) A "romance Weimer" mod would have a much sparser audience than a "romance Weimerfein" mod (notably: it is basically not possible to make a mistake in the Weimerfein romance).

But then, you'd think that (three non-particularly appealing personalities) would be major turnoffs too--but they aren't for many people.

Which is why I am quick to avoid associating popularity with quality directly. As a firm believer in individual liberties I am always aware of the possibility of the tyrrany of the majority. This is not to say that all popular things are worthless ... just that approval is usually not transitive.

I guess I'd rather deal with someone who had a very clear and defined moral code--maybe you wouldn't agree on everything, but at least you'd respect them in the morning.

In my experience, have a clear and well-defined view on things gives you the (illusory) perception that everyone disagrees with you. In reality, this would happen anyway ... it would just take you longer to notice it. :-)

Sammamish River Trail? That's a nice one.

The part of it that runs through Redmond, anyway. The (briefly available) wild berries were quite nice. I actually had the most fun walking in the evenings. No glaring sunlight, no buzzing insects ...                    

[jcompton]

*Yes*, it is very easy for an average programmer to create non-buggy romance (given the right tools and a good understanding of concurrent programming and race conditions).

                   The past 18 months or so have clearly proven that more game companies need computer scientists on staff.

I'll encourage the oldbies to come out of the woodwork and back me up here: this predates TDD ... there just weren't that many (any?) mods available for BG2.

Yes, it's true... although, again, you'd hardly know it because Wes rarely told anybody about it. Then I started yelling at the whole world "NO, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, THIS GUY'S STUFF WORKS WAY BETTER" and lo and behold, Solaufein started making it into some mod lists.

MageDuel DID come out although it was apparently never really debugged.                    

[Kiki]

I think (although it is difficult to remember) that one of my motivations was accessibility.

From my perspective, if I'm going to bother putting it out there then I want people to be able to see it. If it's just for me I can favor "perfection" (or whatever I prefer) even if parts of it will never be noticed.

                   I understand what you are saying here, but it seems like it would be difficult to choose between personal satisfaction based on number of views and personal satisfaction based on artistic integrity.

This is not to say that all popular things are worthless ... just that approval is usually not transitive.

Well, you have hit upon the reason why I avoid many books, such as the Harry Potter ones (this will shock and appall Lisa, I know). I just find it difficult to believe that anything that popular could be any good. So much pandering to the LCD would occur that the result wouldn't be worth reading.

This is also a huge problem with consensus-based decision making--I would say it is the single greatest flaw--but I digress.

The part of it that runs through Redmond, anyway. The (briefly available) wild berries were quite nice.

Heh. You've never tried to garden up here. Himalayan blackberries are an exotic invasive and the greatest evil known to gardeners. Impossible to kill.                    

[Kiki]

Yes, it's true... although, again, you'd hardly know it because Wes rarely told anybody about it. Then I started yelling at the whole world "NO, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, THIS GUY'S STUFF WORKS WAY BETTER" and lo and behold, Solaufein started making it into some mod lists.

                   I'll be sure to hire you if I ever need to put out a mod.                    

[Sim]

There was that highly-touted, never-appearing Mage Duel mod for BG2 (did that ever materialize? anyone?).

MageDuel was released, a long time ago. However, it was abandoned due to a myriad of problems (not least the pain that multiplayer scripting poses and the utter lack of interest), and now resides in the Mod Graveyard. I have a feeling Max was considering more work on it fairly recently, since the game is far better known now; however, I can't claim to have encouraged him.                    

[L_Jonté]

Sexy in a twisted, pathetic, stalker-like way of course.

Mmmm. Are we talking about Neeber or Kelsey now?

                   There's a difference?

Joke!  Joke!  It's a JOKE!   :ph34r:                    

[Hendryk]

This is not to say that all popular things are worthless ... just that approval is usually not transitive.

Well, you have hit upon the reason why I avoid many books, such as the Harry Potter ones (this will shock and appall Lisa, I know). I just find it difficult to believe that anything that popular could be any good. So much pandering to the LCD would occur that the result wouldn't be worth reading.

'Course Shakespeare wrote plays and Dickens wrote magazine serials catering to the LCD to pay the bills.  Otoh, LotR was only a faculty lounge entertainment for something like twenty years and that's proved fairly popular also.  I guess the moral is, if the author's good enough, the intended audience doesn't matter much.




                   

[L_Jonté]

The past 18 months or so have clearly proven that more game companies need computer scientists on staff.

And real live WRITERS.  Not people who create games and can also write with some skill, but men and women who write fantasy/fiction for a living.  It's all about the story...                    

[jcompton]

'Course Shakespeare wrote plays and Dickens wrote magazine serials catering to the LCD to pay the bills.

                   Not to mention that once, opera was cranked out in much the same way TV shows and movies are today... it's all perspective.                    

[Kiki]

'Course Shakespeare wrote plays and Dickens wrote magazine serials catering to the LCD to pay the bills.  Otoh, LotR was only a faculty lounge entertainment for something like twenty years and that's proved fairly popular also.  I guess the moral is, if the author's good enough, the intended audience doesn't matter much.

I think the number of options available these days, both in books and in types of entertainment, are so vast that most modern products that are successful tend to gravitate towards mediocrity. Lots of competition for the same dollars. Look at how publishers choose their titles; Random House just had a huge shakeup last week as their premier division of literary books, Random Books, just got mashed into the same division as Ballantine (mass-market paperbacks). Leisure time across all social classes has also expanded; entertainment is no longer primarily the province of the rich and educated, and has adjusted accordingly.

And yeah, the work of Dickens, Shakespeare, Puccini, and Mozart survived, but I imagine that they had plenty of popular contemporaries who churned out pap that deserved to die unknown and unloved.

I just hope that a couple of centuries from now, our descendents aren't holding up Nora Roberts and the latest ghostwritten memoir du jour as shining examples of our society's towering achievements.

That reminds me, at the beginning of 2000, the NY Times did a spoof of what their bestselling book list would look like in 2020. It had titles like "Harry Potter and the Receding Hairline: A middle-aged wizard battles an insidious force." A hilarious list, it was. Also included such classics as a collaboration between Joyce Carol Oates and Jackie Collins, "Verily, He Rent My Bodice" and "Kickball and the Wounded Spirit" by Deepak Chokra (sp?).                    

[Kiki]

Yes, it's true... although, again, you'd hardly know it because Wes rarely told anybody about it.

Weimer said:

From my perspective, if I'm going to bother putting it out there then I want people to be able to see it.

How do these two statements get reconciled?                    

[jcompton]

On the X axis, plot # of users.

On the Y axis, plot average % of mod consumed by users.

Wes's utility function depends way way more on Y than X.

Is my guess.
                   

[L_Jonté]

Well, you have hit upon the reason why I avoid many books, such as the Harry Potter ones (this will shock and appall Lisa, I know).

I just find it difficult to believe that anything that popular could be any good.

I am shocked and appalled.  

I also refuse to preach the Potter gospel as so many have before me.  Though, I admit I was extremely smug when my best friend (who had teased me endlessly about my "thing" for Harry Potter) got hooked herself.  First her husband then her.  After all the ribbing I took, it was very satisfying indeed.                    

[Kiki]

On the X axis, plot # of users.

On the Y axis, plot average % of mod consumed by users.

Wes's utility function depends way way more on Y than X.

Is my guess.

                   If this were plotted out, Wes's aversion to publicity would only make sense if the line took a downward plunge as the # of users increased. Maybe that's true, but my sense is that it's pretty much a horizontal line. He oughta be interested in X times Y.

Mmmm. Are we talking about Neeber or Kelsey now?

There's a difference?

Ooooh, that was wicked, Jonte. I salute you.

                   

[L_Jonté]

Thenk yew!  Thenk yew!  Wicked is my middle name.                    

[Userunfriendly]

"Well, you have hit upon the reason why I avoid many books, such as the Harry Potter ones (this will shock and appall Lisa, I know).

I just find it difficult to believe that anything that popular could be any good. "


i had a coworker who got me into reading harry potter, and in return i gave her a copy of

barry hughart's

bridge of birds...

he is way way way way way better, and its fuuny, since ritual has a npc called number 10 ox, and li kao...

thats my response to harry potter books,

and frank herbert is my response to the star trek fiction books..yech...

                   

[AvatarofInsolence]

Herbert had a good thing going in Dune, but I really think he started to forget what he was doing towards the middle of Children, and took a total header into La-La-Land in God Emperer. Yes! Iam back after a briefish hiatus! Whooooo!                    

[Caedwyr]

Star Trek fiction novels are on the same level as harlequin romances in respect to literary quality.  Of course, there are a few exceptions, but these are rare.                    

[jcompton]

It's been years since I went to that particular pulp tap but Peter David's books were usually good, and told enough of a story that you didn't mind so much that they're all exercises in futility.
                   

[Caedwyr]

I agree about the Peter David books, but the sheer number of star trek novels (something like 2+ released per month for 6+years) means that most of them leave a lot to be desired for in the quality section.  The other thing that annoys me is the complete lack of continuity, or even connectedness between novels.  

I tend to stay away from Star Trek now, and watch/read Babylon 5 stories.  I also read anything/everything by Timothy Zahn, and so far he hasn't let me down.                    

[jcompton]

Ahhh, Bablyon 5. How one man can both make and destroy something wonderful.
                   

[Caedwyr]

How one man can both make and destroy something wonderful.

Are you refering to the Crusade series?