Author Topic: More than Seriously  (Read 8047 times)

The Angered One

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More than Seriously
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2003, 06:13:27 PM »
"What do you think weimer's mods are all about? Creating mini-supercreatures? No... They mainly focus on improving the gameplay in Baldur's Gate 2. Oh no, you actually have to use Breach now..."

Oh must be really a shame to you that now must memorize it instead of just all cloud kills and a chaos, along with one ruby ray instead of just improved haste and horrid wilting, or do you just toss all your money in scrolls, or even yet do you just pass a lot of time pressing Z ? Its much easier this way isnt ?

"The mods actually are quite fun to play. Now, instead of Improved Hasting all of your melee characters, turning on the 'Agressive' AI, and just wading in there while you read a book while your characters just destroy everything, you actually have to pay attention, and use your Mages... "

Mostly of the time in the game its you that makes the difficult, depends to the point til where you're going to go to make it easier, if u sleep a lot and always beef up with the necessary magics before every encounter, theres no much point even with the mods, they just foce you to powergame your way, ifs that the only way you know how to play then I see how the game vecomes unfunny really quick and these mods are your only salvation, no problem in that tou :)

Hmm I must look like a maniac babbling right now lol..

Cheers.                    

Offline jcompton

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More than Seriously
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2003, 08:00:20 PM »
The original hoax is still in there, but Wes has moved it to the "HINTS" text file for Ilyich. Perhaps he'll reconsider.
                   
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

foogla

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More than Seriously
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2003, 08:32:40 PM »
Kuro actually drops anything he uses. You mistake his Spell Trap for a Cloak of Reflection. He is a Kensai/Mage, but I hope you knew that alright?

All of the new encounters present a whole party with an obstacle that is (level wise or equipment wise) way ahead of them, so you have to tech a bit to beat them. If you play solo you're going to get frustrated really soon.

To call us all powergamers because we play in a party and rest in dungeons isn't very polite imho.



[!--EDIT|foogla|Jan 7 2003, 04:33 AM--]

Daniel

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More than Seriously
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2003, 08:53:56 PM »
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For example, look at the Mind Flayer dungeon. Mind Flayers communicate telepathically (they would know what happened) and they are supposed to be very intelligent. So, once they realize they are being slaughtered, what do they do? Right, stand in neat little groups in separate rooms and not come to each other's aid when attacked.

If instead they were to stick together, pick one room and ambush you, you would almost certainly lose (even with Chaotic Commands and the other protections).

Maybe so.. but lets remember that the Mind Flayer city IS optional, and i think they should be extremely difficult. If it's too hard, you can always go and kill the kua-toans instead.
Personally, I found the improved beholder city extremely difficult, but fun when I actually was able to do it. The reason being, once you take out the first couple of groups of beholders, if you attack any more you get attacked by EVERYTHING in there. About 6 beholders, a few gauth, a few elder orbs, and two (i think?) hive mothers.                    

Assassin

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More than Seriously
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2003, 09:47:52 PM »
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Isnt it ? I play BG2 quite well, I'm even in a restrictive 5% (but can be very wrong in that) type of gamer, I normaly dont go walking and stop at X point cause I know theres a battle in there and start doing all the protections I'll need cause I well.. just know by some greater force of divination that I'll need it, I actually walk inside the X point and when the battle begin I start doing what I think will fit for that battle.

Yes I die a lot at some battles, sleep only when not in very dangerous places what some times causes me to die even more, maybe you'll laugh but it took me 2 hours to win the improved gromnir the first time I got there, got there in the end of my rope, very few spells, charges in itens and so on.

It gives much more satisfaction to win a battle as you're supposed to, I dont walk around wich much more protection than a party normally would (be it what ? Prot. evil in most dungeons , stoneskins, mass inv., some mirror images, make a lot of wizard eyes, etc etc..)

Now maybe you think I dont play as the game is supposed to be played, be giving load everytime and sleeping everytime, I find it easier (really) to play solo, cause then you're the superman and the enemy better start running.

Maybe so, but it's not fun to just beat everyone up, while you're practically immune... but then again, I might just have a different idea of what 'fun' is.

There really aren't all that many major battles that you don't have a clue about what's going to happen, either through notes hidden here or there, or by dialogue.  So, in case someone says "Prepare for a battle with these creatures", well, duh, you're going to prepare for one.  (case in point- Nalia's Keep: She warns you well ahead of time to prepare for it.  Now, isn't it nice that you now know?)

And, btw, you can't make more than one Wizard Eye :)

Everyone has their own way to play Baldur's Gate 2.  Whenever I know that I'm at the end of my party's rope, I just rest.  

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Oh yes maybe I can be like that shadow thieves that uses the demons paralizing gaze, or the whole ilych bunch that are imune to web and sleeping cloud and what else (at least they were in my game, you dont even get to see their saving trows, they're just imune), or like the liches and high lvl mages that seem to have 30 slots for every high lvl spell and can cast it in a second, or kensays that are always by improved haste, cloack of mirror and etc but when you kill him you only get his powergamer sword, I would very much like to be his race or class cause his innate abilities are the thing.

Oh well what else.. the random encounters.. you get to cast confusion and charm but do you think the guys stop hiting you ? hell no, they dont stop no matter what.. bah this list can go on if I'm going to list every abuse, but theres no need for that its obvious for everyone that wants to see it.

I have to agree with you with those Thieves, however, if you loot them, you get to use the wands too.  Power to the Mages!  B)  (Note, however, that it states in the description that it can't be used by Thieves; who knows, maybe they have Use Any Item, or some Mage levels stuck in there)

Liches and high level mages are exactly that; they're supposed to have some level 9 spells and such.  They've by no means an infinite amount.  About casting it in a second; what are you talking about?  They adhere to the same rules that you do.

The Kensai is a character that can be created by you, if you wanted to.  A level 13/14 Kensai/Mage, who buffs up before the battle.  The Improved Haste will wear off, you just have to wait 17 rounds.  The Cloak of Mirroring is really powerful; Do you really want two of them?

The random encounters are manageable.  Just Breach, and kill the Priest, Thief, Fighters, and finally the Mages.  In the higher levels, it's usually best to kill the Mages first, though in the beginning, they aren't that inhuman.

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Again you got to general but maybe I was too, I'm talking about some battles, not making every group of enemis an unstopable machine (*with seems to be what we get by these mods)

Latest example: To beat improved Ily group you must first call his lesser demon away and beat him alone.

Ilych : Wheres the demon going ?
razputin: Probably going to take a pee.
Ilych: U sure ? I'm hearing sounds of battle..
razputin: Shhh dont mind that, we're supposed to be only ubber and stay here, not to be smart.

Wouldnt it make for a much better battle if instead of all the power they were just smart enough to go all over you at the same time while casting some haste to get you before the library ? Just put the guy that will cast haste way in the back so you'll have problems to magic missil him.

So, you want to ask weimer to throw in a Mage too?  Good grief, now Planetars... *_*  Anyways, I don't even know in case it's possible to program the game so that they would follow you in case they bait you one at a time.

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After u kill this lesser demon u probably will have to sleep, have jaheira call woodland, have it cast confusion at their group and it better work, then what, streng of one ? Charm hardly work, haste your guys, have jaheira call insects.. nothing that will really give you some advantage against this group of supermans. Then lastly what, engage incombat ? If your main char in an ubber god maybe you can succed in doing that every 1 at each 20 times, but most likely in this battle u'll have to run til the library and stay behind the door with just one of them at each time.

Or, you could cast a million Skull Traps at a junction and lure them all there.  It works, believe me... Cheesy, but it works.

[QUOTE That Kensay guy is another one, last time I've gone to rescue Imoen quick cause I wanted her in the group, had the malakar and my group couldn stand to face him by any means, I had to uninstall him or drop the sword.

The time I was playing solo, it was easy to beat him, but we killed half the population of the docks district when fighthing (what was actually the most cool thing about that fight anyway) [/QUOTE]

Well, of course, in case you don't even try to pre-buff your party, you're going to lose.  It's very possible to beat him, even with a full party.  Run around for 14 rounds to wear off his Spell Immunities, throwing in a Pro-Magic Weapons here and there to take away his Breaches, Breach him, slap on a SI: Conjuration, put up the two Fire Shields, and, finally a Pro-Magic Weapons of yourself.  Face him in melee.  He'll die *fast*.

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Bah this also can go on and on but enough of my rants or maybe weimer will make you face a god real soon (hey I didnt know it was part of a joke, should not take you guys seriously hã ?)

Just to clarify I've nothing against powerful enemis, as long as they do things in a AD&D D&D hibrid fashion, and have the rules to back them up, I get really pissed when an otyugh cast a magic poison that always hit you and will eat up your entire life while you unsuccessfuly try to kill him that now regenerates and when u finally do it u cant cast the damn scrolls he left in the ground and was guarded god knows where cause you're inside an insect plague.

It isn't poison. It's Dolorous Decay... Run away until the Regeneration spell wears off.  Summon up something for the Insect Plague.

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If my lvl 1 char is walking in a cemetery and a vamp comes and say that I'll die for being in his territory, I've no problem in dying by that, its completely clear, as long as he dont use a gold dragon breath to finish me.

A level one Character?  You have no problems with that? I would, in case I didn't have even the slightest chance to beat it.  A level 1 character has maybe 24 hit points at most.  A vampire hits for about 8 every hit, hits for magical, and is immune to non-magical weapons.  Three hits (and you better be protected from Level Drain, or first hit, you're toast), and you're dead.  It'll probably hit you on the first three attacks first... Now, in case you're at level one, you probably don't have any magical weapons.  Um... Imbalance....

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Oh must be really a shame to you that now must memorize it instead of just all cloud kills and a chaos, along with one ruby ray instead of just improved haste and horrid wilting, or do you just toss all your money in scrolls, or even yet do you just pass a lot of time pressing Z ? Its much easier this way isnt ?

Cloudkill, in case I throw it in the middle of a raging melee battle (with my characters in it), is perfectly non-cheesy.  It's only when it gets to Cloudkilling off-screen that it starts to get cheesy... Chaos?  Never used it in my life.  And, by the way, I just use a Rod of Reversal for Ruby Ray and use Improved Haste and Horrid Wilting.  No, I don't.  I use Heal, then beat up the next bunch of enemies.

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Mostly of the time in the game its you that makes the difficult, depends to the point til where you're going to go to make it easier, if u sleep a lot and always beef up with the necessary magics before every encounter, theres no much point even with the mods, they just foce you to powergame your way, ifs that the only way you know how to play then I see how the game vecomes unfunny really quick and these mods are your only salvation, no problem in that tou

Now we're saying that Resting is cheesy?  I make it mandatory to cast Iron Skins/Stoneskin whenever I wake up, except when I'm just shopping.  Iron Skins/Stoneskin is the only pre-buff I use, and it works just fine.

Powergame?  No, I also roleplay.  Easier to just kill some people, yet I run around, doing quests that give me less experience than it's worth.  For example, I'm thinking of trying out Haer-Dalis... Never tried a Bard before, but they could be fun. B)                    



[!--EDIT|Assassin|Jan 7 2003, 05:58 AM--]

Althernai

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More than Seriously
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2003, 10:13:04 PM »
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Maybe you're one of these modders that have "players must die imprinted at your forehead", can you just think of ways to overwhelm players or can you actually think about the gith using their powers to maintain certain doorst shut not alowing the mind flayers to gather all in one room ?
                   Hold on there for a moment.

First, let me make it clear that I am not a modder -- I just play these mods and occasionally point out bugs, typoes and things I think should be changed.

Second, the example with Mind Flayer was just that -- an example. All BG2 enemies (Fire Giants, Orcs, Drow, you name it) follow this simple strategy. All I said was that if they didn't, the game would be unbeatable. To give you another example, if you couldn't use 'divide and conquer' against Ilyich, you would certainly lose with most classes (maybe not with a Thief setting traps or a Sorcerer with Skull Traps, but with most classes). He even tells you something like "We are 10 times as experienced as you are. If not for our strange, sub-optimal tactics you wouldn't have a chance."

As to the gith, I think they wish you good luck and run away promising to return with an overwhelming force.                    

Guest

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More than Seriously
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2003, 01:15:16 AM »
"Maybe so, but it's not fun to just beat everyone up, while you're practically immune... but then again, I might just have a different idea of what 'fun' is."

Where did I mean that ? I said just the opposite.

"There really aren't all that many major battles that you don't have a clue about what's going to happen, either through notes hidden here or there, or by dialogue. So, in case someone says "Prepare for a battle with these creatures", well, duh, you're going to prepare for one. (case in point- Nalia's Keep: She warns you well ahead of time to prepare for it. Now, isn't it nice that you now know?)"

Agreed, but then there still are major battles, the most major battle of the game, the twisted rune, is a perfect example (hey now its your turn to give my degree in extremism :) )

"And, btw, you can't make more than one Wizard Eye "

Are u sure ? Try making a wizard eye, then look the area a bit with it.. after a while it will dissapear, then you can make another, its as simple as that :D

I dont know WHY you did assume that I was saying make 10 wizard eyes at the same time.. puzzles me. But then I dont think you're the kind of guy that uses it much anyway. Do you just assume your guys know everything that is in the area ? Or you get a cloaked char to go scouting ? In case you do that, correct me if I'm wrong but I bet you only do that when its convenient for you. (like not in places where creatures can see as per the demon plane in the planar sphere)

"Everyone has their own way to play Baldur's Gate 2. Whenever I know that I'm at the end of my party's rope, I just rest. "

Well there are also another lot of variables in styles, say that if you sleep to get your spells and charge itens, and after that you just starting casting spells and using the charges like if theres no tomorrow, you're probably going to get to the end of the rope sooner. But theres no point in try to find balance this way. I try to keep my spells and itens til the moment they appear to be most needed (and I believe you must do the same), not go using it all right away to then sleep again and make the game a free party.

About your resting style, I rather not to rest in places that would get me killed (again the demon plane is a very good example) Thats my type of roleplaying. But no problem with your resting style tou.

"I have to agree with you with those Thieves, however, if you loot them, you get to use the wands too. Power to the Mages!  (Note, however, that it states in the description that it can't be used by Thieves; who knows, maybe they have Use Any Item, or some Mage levels stuck in there)

Liches and high level mages are exactly that; they're supposed to have some level 9 spells and such. They've by no means an infinite amount. About casting it in a second; what are you talking about? They adhere to the same rules that you do."

I've seen some with a really high amount of spells, there was one of the kangaxx guardians that did cast a trigger with had around a dozen horrid whiltings at me. Then even if I had protection from magic energy must also had some 60 hps or I would get killed before the protection could take effect (dont know why..), and again, its cheesy to have a guy cast a chain like that, forcing you to have a protection from magic energy before enter the building.. What I mean by it: Do you always cast protection from magic energy before entering an abandoned building ? Of course no, a real party would die there time and again.

"The Kensai is a character that can be created by you, if you wanted to. A level 13/14 Kensai/Mage, who buffs up before the battle. The Improved Haste will wear off, you just have to wait 17 rounds. The Cloak of Mirroring is really powerful; Do you really want two of them?"

Maybe theres a new version for him then, The one I played (around what.. 4 months ago I guess), his imp haste would never wear off (that batlle in the docks took around an hour, I'm not kidding), he had much more protections to recast than I could remove  (unless I based my entire spell repertory from abjuration, but again why would a normal party do it, not that would help much anyway, he can kill the mage just with the acid damage that comes back from him).

If he has a cloack of mirroring, off course I want it. Alas.. my cloack of mirroring is the ToB one (and I thank god for the changes they made to the cloak in ToB, the regular SoA cloak makes the spellcasters look like children whats not nice at all), but then I do believe his cloak is the SoA cloak, not the ToB one.

"The random encounters are manageable. Just Breach, and kill the Priest, Thief, Fighters, and finally the Mages. In the higher levels, it's usually best to kill the Mages first, though in the beginning, they aren't that inhuman. "

I'm not saying they're impossible, and thanks but I think that after some time playing this I know how to win very well and quick when its needed to (heck I knew that by the second time I played), the thing is that half of the times in the random encounters (speally in the first and second time you meet them, they have more lvls than you, can give more damage, have better itens, and even greater healing potions, at least mine did) YOU'VE TO BE CHEESE with them unless you're obviously in a lvl much higher than they're. I dislike being forced to win by imoral means IE powergaming.

But yet what I did find most amazing when facing these guys was the fact that: 1 - Did charm they.. no matter wich one, got green circle at their feet, they just didnt stop attacking me, the best I could do was send him far away but 2 steps after that he was already turning back to attack me again. 2 - Did confusion, they got the status over their heads, but acted normally no matter how many times I tried.

"So, you want to ask weimer to throw in a Mage too? Good grief, now Planetars... *_* Anyways, I don't even know in case it's possible to program the game so that they would follow you in case they bait you one at a time."

Its possible to some extent I guess, Ily group actually did that (they seemed to just not follow the glabrezu):

I did go with the nymph and casted confusion, Yli got confused, I pushed the group back to the beginning of the corridor, Ily did hit one of his allies, they started the 'where are they' screams and they all did run to where I was, just Ily did not run since he was confused, everytime I tried to lure one of them all came to my way, just not behind the door where they couldnt reach anyways.. So I think its quite possible to script normal creatures to chase and attack you if a creature near they saw you, that would be a hell of an improvement to the general cpu AI.

"Or, you could cast a million Skull Traps at a junction and lure them all there. It works, believe me... Cheesy, but it works."

Well now what, you'll start to support my post lol ? :D

Geez is there a skull trap scroll around ? Unless you made spellcaster as main char. Anyway it would be nice if the driads actually told you that Ily and his bunch are powerful, and you better seach the next lvl of the dungeon, and then after that come back more prepared to face him.

"It isn't poison. It's Dolorous Decay... Run away until the Regeneration spell wears off. Summon up something for the Insect Plague."

Ah its actually Dolorous Decay, well that animation has been used to so many different effects along the game and the mods that I ask your pardon for not noticing it, I tought they were just reusing it again to a different effect. Anyway, otyughs do indded have dolorous decay as per the AD&D if I do remenber. But Geez his regeneration is a spell ? Am I supposed to know that and tell this to my group ? Will they believe and not make fun of me ? :) Summoning ? In a way that resembles cheesing or nerfing ? I go back to my first post.

"A level one Character? You have no problems with that? I would, in case I didn't have even the slightest chance to beat it. A level 1 character has maybe 24 hit points at most. A vampire hits for about 8 every hit, hits for magical, and is immune to non-magical weapons. Three hits (and you better be protected from Level Drain, or first hit, you're toast), and you're dead. It'll probably hit you on the first three attacks first... Now, in case you're at level one, you probably don't have any magical weapons. Um... Imbalance...."

What I tried to ilustrate was that, if you find yourself in a situation where the odds are against you, its unlikely you'll survive, in the example you could try to run from the vamp, maybe you susscceded, but the chance is smal. And the moral to it ? The mods force you into situations where the odds are against you, and if you arent cheesy or powergaming its unlikely you'll survive. The gold dragon breath was to ilustrate the extend that they go to make the odds even more against you, causing enemis to have demonic abilities, very very high statics (saving trows, innates, atributes and etc), immunities and so on.

"Hold on there for a moment.

First, let me make it clear that I am not a modder -- I just play these mods and occasionally point out bugs, typoes and things I think should be changed."

It was justy a nasty coment :) , apologies, I'm not a mod nazy lol.

"Second, the example with Mind Flayer was just that -- an example. All BG2 enemies (Fire Giants, Orcs, Drow, you name it) follow this simple strategy. All I said was that if they didn't, the game would be unbeatable. To give you another example, if you couldn't use 'divide and conquer' against Ilyich, you would certainly lose with most classes (maybe not with a Thief setting traps or a Sorcerer with Skull Traps, but with most classes). He even tells you something like "We are 10 times as experienced as you are. If not for our strange, sub-optimal tactics you wouldn't have a chance."

As to the gith, I think they wish you good luck and run away promising to return with an overwhelming force. "

lol I know the giths leave, but I was just trying to make some good and beliveable logic of a possible reason for them not getting all in the same rom if they would otherwise do it. I think it was a susscceful point.

To almost every point of the gamesyou can think of a logical way for an army gathering to kill the group I can think a reason for it not happening :) Just try me.

But now you strategy seems flawed. Fire Giants, Orcs, Drows, the drown dont get a chance to trow an army, not in any part of the game that I remenber. Fire Giants, they dont think they need an army to beat you, to they you're just weak and pathetic, besides they're not much smart. Orc.. are the orcs in your game smart enough to know that if a fireball can hurt, a fireball in the middle of a lot of them could hurt say.. a lot of them ? If they gathered they would be an easy target to area spells, fire giants are likely to be too.

Hey Its a nice talk we're having, maybe we can get somewhere who knows.. keep it coming :)

                   

The Angered One

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« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2003, 01:35:06 AM »
Its me above, I just forgot the name.

Cheers.

I've a newb question:

Could I make a script to attach to each guy that sells things but you're allowed to steal, to make it like: if you steal an item from him, difficulty to steal goes up 20%, steal again, 40%, steal again, 80%.. keep going, this increase will last for say a month.. cause the storekeeper have an eye at you, and if the guy notices you stealing and you actually kill him, if he was a licensed seller (be it a regular salesman, that pay his taxes and everything) your reputation drop even more and the govern actually sends one of those teleport groups of soldires and mages to get you ?

In case of the guy not being protected by the amnish part but instead being a thief that sells ilegal stuff, you could get some serious trouble with the shadow thieves (or some other thief aliance case you sided with bodhi)

But if you then get they all killed you get all the itens the guy had along with some gold.

Thats seems very nice, eliminates the never ending money, alows more rp since you are not going to get away with the entire store over your shoulders and the storekeeper didnt even notice it, gives more room for a believeable evil party to survive and gives the punishement that a neutral party deserves, good partys just wouldnt be stealing unless they desperately need it, what would hardly happen much times.

That would be nice.                    

The Angered One

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« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2003, 01:54:36 AM »
Also some parts of your post I did nor adress: (geez I must be quick have to leave real soon)

Cloudkill, in case I throw it in the middle of a raging melee battle (with my characters in it), is perfectly non-cheesy. It's only when it gets to Cloudkilling off-screen that it starts to get cheesy... Chaos? Never used it in my life. And, by the way, I just use a Rod of Reversal for Ruby Ray and use Improved Haste and Horrid Wilting. No, I don't. I use Heal, then beat up the next bunch of enemies.

I did write that for assassin since he seemed to take me for a newb so I took him for that kind of guy that only memorizes the most apealing spells all the time and dont even know what a wizard eye for. (except for making the demilich loose a lot of time trying to unsussccefuly affect the eye with his abilities)

Cloudkill is normaly ok, what happened to the sumonings ? Anyway you just need to have a good notion of the area it wil affect and put your group at the edge forcing the enemy to stay inside, and its not cheesy too, just making the better use.

You never used chaos ??? You dont know what you're missing, everytime you find another group, just chaos is half the battle won.

Who doesnt heal ? But if u can do that with a mage you're beyond my ken :)

So you never run out of rod ahn ?

"Now we're saying that Resting is cheesy? I make it mandatory to cast Iron Skins/Stoneskin whenever I wake up, except when I'm just shopping. Iron Skins/Stoneskin is the only pre-buff I use, and it works just fine."

No problem with that, I do the same, but then if your style is to rest and go spending every spell and charge as if theres was tomorrow to go and sleep again very soon, I thinks its cheesy indeed.
                   

KaPe

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« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2003, 03:27:18 AM »
"No problem with that, I do the same, but then if your style is to rest and go spending every spell and charge as if theres was tomorrow to go and sleep again very soon, I thinks its cheesy indeed"
Well, that's the problem with BG2( and D&D cRPGs... )U can cast tons of spells without any problem, chain powerful summoning/lvl8 spells, even that it would propably leave you unconscious for (at *very* least) several minutes. People complain about "mana" system, but then again, isn't casting 5 timestops in row worse?
I don't agree with u however - u prefer to play solo, where U are the superman, even w/o buffs, it takes several second to make one person invincible... And enemies, well, they have to make up for their weak AI(with exceptions, of course) with some special abilities, well nobody FORCES you to install all those imp.battles, besides, you have beaten them, haven't you? So, it is possible(after all, you say you don't cheesee... too much) ... I never had feeling that i'm confronting demi-god, and I have no chances of winning, and i'm not cheesing(at least I try not to) They made me use spells I never thought were useful, like SI^^ and so on. And, well, I want powerful enemies, damn it :D Bounty hunters going after you should know, that they are facing demi-god(bhaalspawn) and prepare accordingly.                    

Assassin

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« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2003, 07:55:49 AM »
[/quote] Are u sure ? Try making a wizard eye, then look the area a bit with it.. after a while it will dissapear, then you can make another, its as simple as that

I dont know WHY you did assume that I was saying make 10 wizard eyes at the same time.. puzzles me. But then I dont think you're the kind of guy that uses it much anyway. Do you just assume your guys know everything that is in the area ? Or you get a cloaked char to go scouting ? In case you do that, correct me if I'm wrong but I bet you only do that when its convenient for you. (like not in places where creatures can see as per the demon plane in the planar sphere) [/quote]

Actually, I either use Farsight or an Invisible character to do the scouting ever since I got the patch for the worst encounters. It actually forces me to scout. :)

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I've seen some with a really high amount of spells, there was one of the kangaxx guardians that did cast a trigger with had around a dozen horrid whiltings at me. Then even if I had protection from magic energy must also had some 60 hps or I would get killed before the protection could take effect (dont know why..), and again, its cheesy to have a guy cast a chain like that, forcing you to have a protection from magic energy before enter the building.. What I mean by it: Do you always cast protection from magic energy before entering an abandoned building ? Of course no, a real party would die there time and again.

I've fought them; what are you talking about?  There are two Liches in there, however, and both of them using a Chain Contingency would allow 6 Horrid Wilting.

That's why you have the ability to reload, or to check inside the building, and dash outside.  Both of those are very possible to do, and neither is really that imbalancing.

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Maybe theres a new version for him then, The one I played (around what.. 4 months ago I guess), his imp haste would never wear off (that batlle in the docks took around an hour, I'm not kidding), he had much more protections to recast than I could remove (unless I based my entire spell repertory from abjuration, but again why would a normal party do it, not that would help much anyway, he can kill the mage just with the acid damage that comes back from him).

If he has a cloack of mirroring, off course I want it. Alas.. my cloack of mirroring is the ToB one (and I thank god for the changes they made to the cloak in ToB, the regular SoA cloak makes the spellcasters look like children whats not nice at all), but then I do believe his cloak is the SoA cloak, not the ToB one.


Or maybe he just has the Boots of Speed?  Maybe he has a Spell Turning on?  

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I'm not saying they're impossible, and thanks but I think that after some time playing this I know how to win very well and quick when its needed to (heck I knew that by the second time I played), the thing is that half of the times in the random encounters (speally in the first and second time you meet them, they have more lvls than you, can give more damage, have better itens, and even greater healing potions, at least mine did) YOU'VE TO BE CHEESE with them unless you're obviously in a lvl much higher than they're. I dislike being forced to win by imoral means IE powergaming.

Um... higher levels means toughers tactical encounters.  You just have to grit your teeth and bash through. :)

I'll reply more in-depth later, but now, I got to go to school.
                   

foogla

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« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2003, 08:16:03 AM »
The Angered One: I think you should add "Run away from battles" to your list of cheesy things to (not) do, since you can actually change your tactics if you know what's coming. And you can also rest, how cheesy! :x


Also yes Kuro has Spell Turning and a Spell Trap (read from a scroll I assume) active.



[!--EDIT|foogla|Jan 7 2003, 04:17 PM--]

Offline weimer

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« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2003, 10:12:28 AM »
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Is all that you guys do a monument to powergaming ?
The tactics mod is, not surprisingly, a paean to tactics. You do not need min-maxed characteres who forsake roleplaying and abuse OOC knowledge in order to defeat it. You can, in fact, defeat everything with normal characters who make half-decent tactical and strategic decisions.

However, it tends to be *easier* for new players to defeat the tactics mod components with min-maxed "powergaming" characters. Thus many people think that the only way to defeat these challenges is to forsake roleplaying. This is not the case. However, it may be true for any particular person. For example, I'm sure that my mother would only be able to defeat the tactics challenges with divine intervention or rampant cheating.

Let's make an analogy with chess. Imagine that you have spent most of your life playing chess in coffeehouses and that you're half decent against such opponents. The tactics mod is like playing against a smarter opponent (often) or a stupid one that starts with an extra bishop (more rare). In both cases you could win easily by starting with an extra queen (= powergaming, min-maxing). And for a time, that may be the only way you can figure out that works for you. However, it is quite possible to win the chess games just using the default starting pieces (= no powergaming) ... but that requires that you know a bit about chess, strategy and tactics.

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Sincerily, theres no other way do get around these mods without doing this kind of thing (or worse ones),

Since it only takes one example to prove an existential claim, I'll posit myself. I can, in fact, defeat all of the tactics mod challenges in SoA without powergaming and without reloading. I have done it exactly once. :-)

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then you take advantage of your preparions,

You may not have heard my "seatbelt" theory of the universe, but I don't consider preparations to be powergaming. If I were a mage in an AD&D world, I would walk around with stoneskin on *all the time*. Don't leave home without it! Pro-Fire, Pro-Cold, Strength, Pro-Fear -- these are like the seatbelt in your car. If you don't take a few seconds to put it on, don't be surprised.

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Game resumes to: Endless re-do same parts of the game nerfing and powergaming or waiting for the tides of luck to start running at your side (what happens 1 at each X times), sleeping sleeping sleeping and then sleeping again to be protected from everything and to weave a new way of delivering massive power to the superman next corner.

If that's what the tactics mod forces your game to be like ... uninstall it. It does not force me to endlessly re-do the same parts of the game. It does not force me to sleep all the time (moreso with mages than with melee chars, as always). Heck, I even avoid tactics that only win one time in X (e.g., I almost always avoid finger of death and whatnot).

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What about some nice things like enemis wich arent super or mini-supermans but know useful stuff like how to open doors,

Wouldn't that be great? Essentially, it can't be done in BG2. For bonus points, name 6 people not in your party who open a door in classic BG2. Even the game designers didn't do it.

One thing you may not be aware of is that the scripting language used in IE games (and this is my reasoned opinion as a programming languages researcher) is inadequate for non-trivial tasks. Mod-makers run into this wall all the time. The language is just not expressive enough.

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Whats more.. one that cause they to chase you between areas and regain the spells they just casted if you tried to cheat them..

Lovely ideas. Both of these basically cannot be done. Scripting language is too weak.

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Whats more.. one that cause they to chase you between areas and regain the spells they just casted if you tried to cheat them..

Lovely ideas. Both of these basically cannot be done. Scripting language is too weak. For example, you cannot even reliably instruct your characters to "walk out of a cloudkill" or "circle around and surround person X" or "walk forward in a defensive formation that keeps the mage in the center".

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probably dozens of things that my limited mind cant see and could make for a better game without the adition of

And they are all more or less impossible to do in the Infinity Engine Scripting Language. Trust me. I have grappled with this issue many times.

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right where they where. Cant him and his group start hunting with the true seeing the thing they think they saw ?

Not in the Infinity Engine scripting language. Basically, the only movement command given is "walk toward this enemy". You can't even say "walk halfway" or "walk 20 feet" or "explore the local area". Sorry. The language is just not expressive enough.


I like the tactics mod. In another world, however, it would be *so much better*. I agree with you -- most of the improvements are similar. It's not that we lack imagination. We can see the flaws as starkly as you can. It's that our hands are tied. We cannot release a mod where enemies intelligently search around for you or walk to the edge of a cloud or avoid throwing a fireball if it will heat someone on their team or open any door they come to or split their multiple-attacks-per-round up intelligently or ...

... because the language is too weak. We just can't do it.

So what you see is the best that we can do with the materials that we are given.

I don't want to spend all of my time making excuses here. Ultimately, if you don't enjoy it you can uninstall it. I wish we could make the sort of mod that you're asking for. I do not believe that we can.                    

Sim

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« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2003, 10:49:52 AM »
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For example, you cannot even reliably instruct your characters to "walk out of a cloudkill"
I actually started a discussion on this here...                    

Kish

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« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2003, 02:50:20 PM »
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Kuro actually drops anything he uses.
                   ...

I'm afraid you're wrong.  Check the ReadMe.  (Not the main Tactics ReadMe, the Kuroisan ReadMe.)                    

Assassin

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« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2003, 04:25:37 PM »
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did write that for assassin since he seemed to take me for a newb so I took him for that kind of guy that only memorizes the most apealing spells all the time and dont even know what a wizard eye for. (except for making the demilich loose a lot of time trying to unsussccefuly affect the eye with his abilities)

Cloudkill is normaly ok, what happened to the sumonings ? Anyway you just need to have a good notion of the area it wil affect and put your group at the edge forcing the enemy to stay inside, and its not cheesy too, just making the better use.

I was being sarcastic about the Breach thing... -_-;;  I know what a Wizard Eye is for.  Cloudkill is fine, you just have to watch the hit dice your summoned creatures have.  It's not Death Fog.

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You never used chaos ??? You dont know what you're missing, everytime you find another group, just chaos is half the battle won.

Who doesnt heal ? But if u can do that with a mage you're beyond my ken

So you never run out of rod ahn ?

Meh... My playing style.  You play differently than I do.  Well, I don't always solo Mage... And I do keep a Druid or Cleric around.  Potions are always useful too.

I never thought that people would think that rest is cheesy...

About the Otuygh regenerating... it says something like: "Regeneration: Otyugh" in the text below.

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Well there are also another lot of variables in styles, say that if you sleep to get your spells and charge itens, and after that you just starting casting spells and using the charges like if theres no tomorrow, you're probably going to get to the end of the rope sooner. But theres no point in try to find balance this way. I try to keep my spells and itens til the moment they appear to be most needed (and I believe you must do the same), not go using it all right away to then sleep again and make the game a free party.  

Okay.  Some people also like to buff to the brim.  I don't.  So what?  I horde potions, scrolls, and other limited charge stuff.  Some people don't.
                   

foogla

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« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2003, 06:46:09 PM »
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Kuro actually drops anything he uses.
...

I'm afraid you're wrong.  Check the ReadMe.  (Not the main Tactics ReadMe, the Kuroisan ReadMe.)
Where do I get that?

Kish

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« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2003, 10:03:04 PM »
If you've got Tactics installed, check the Tactics folder on your hard drive for Hints and ReadMe files.  It should be one of those.  (Don't know what Wes calls the file anymore--when I read it, it was part of the Solaufein mod.)                    

The Angered One

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« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2003, 10:16:57 PM »
Again, if you sleep very often, I think its cheesy.

I know you were being sarcastic assassin, I tried the same. :)

And yes I normally defeat all the improved guys, but sometimes they're really hard.

Like when I just exited jonny dungeon, having the improved encounters very quick at me is a somewhat difficult task.

But then after u beat then a couple 2-3 times, it becomes easy. Then I figure these guys should make more sense, cause well, the first time you fight they = hard, the subsequent ones = makes for nice challenges, after a while = they just give you xp, itens and money (what greatly contributes to make the game even more easy what I find not fun and something that should by all means be avoided)

So I would say: cause they to fight you only when they make for a nice challenge and erase the rest, it gets boring along with some other nasty things.

Again that I have no problem with these guys being strong, but I find somewhat very annoying that they're inexplicable just imune to some effects.

Just one of the liches casted a lot of horrid wilts (but I think that could have been a bug), but even if he casted just a normal high lvl trigger of wilts, I would again say: Do you cast protection from magic energy before entering every abandoned building ? A normal party would really die there, period.

kokuroisan (or whatever his name actually his). I did beat him a couple times, but then again there is some times when he is unbeatable (mostly when you go get imoen very quick), I mean, you get to Elhan, then go to say the docks.. traveling time takes place.. get there with whatsoever no protections, its actually quite hard to beat him.

What I use this examples for ? To say the mods are unbalanced here and there making supermans, they're kind of frustrating.

Given the right circunstances, the mods are all quite easy, but then you're supposed to go meta-gaming to create these favorable circunstances:

Say you go to rescue Imoen quick, you get to Elhan well.. at 50% percent off your rope, at this point there must be hundreds of things you want to do in Athkatla, maybe you rest, I wouldnt since I dont think a wilderness encounter will kill my "beggining to be powerful" party, businnes in Athkatla takes precedence, you go there, meet drizzt, "hey! hi! see you later!" get there, no protections cause of traveling time, even if you did sleep, do you have the means to remove a real massive lot of protections and survive a real nice bunch of strong blows ? I bet almost anyone would a have a GREAT NIGHTMARE at this point.

So how do you normally play to do it ? You put your mind to work like that: I'll face kukoroisan soon, I better create X X and X conditions to make the battle favorable, better have some X number of scrolls with breach or other magic removal means, or better have my party memorize more spell removals that they would normally do, better sleep after elhan, better not get to a place that will take too much travel time or I'll loose my protections, or better have some triggers, and even better be conviced  that the guy I'll see is powerful cause if I take him for a regular enemy I'll probably have a guy die just to notice how powerful he is.

You put your mind to work in X X X method a real lot of times in the mods, kuko was just an example.

Thats meta gaming and thats a delusional way to be a powergamer.

I normally would mess myself in the nightmare part, then its the the time I get angered and came here to be tortured by all of you lol :)

I think the mods are at fault when they force to use this kind of thinking toavoid put yourself in serious trouble, trowing all the odds against you and creating a superman that will add a very not-fun part in your game.

If they had some sorts of checks to see if the battles will make for a good challenge or if they'll actually be a supermans, and wait a little while more if hes in the super lvl right now, that would solve the problems.

Wes: I see your points concerning the engine not alowing this and that, but  u are aware i know nothing about ie engine (best have kept my mouth shut ? :x )

If theres something I dont think is that you guys are in need of more creative minds, its very easy to notice how good you guys are since the dialogs are always very interesting. (But I do believe you guys tend to get some nasty ways to do things sometimes :)  )

About not installing it, well you're around 85 percent correctly :D

No I'm not good about chess, but u better believe I'm damn good in BG :)

Since you say so.. could you make a movie with a newly created group of yours that actually try to kill Ily groups without cheesing or powergaming ?
I bet I would laugh myself to death watching it (hey dont mind I'm just kidding :P)

That script of his group, well actually the part of the script that makes all of them come to you at the same time (except for the neofit) even if you try to lure just one, was something I really admired.

Hmm I dont think I'm being hated all that much.. can be wrong at that too..

Cheers.                    

AvatarofInsolence

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« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2003, 04:27:05 AM »
Been awhile, but I'm back. I'm beginning to wonder if you started this thread just for the conflict, angered. You have been quoting the exact same examples throughout, and consistently dismiss everything said to  you by way of explaing things. Wes stated that alot of the stupid things that make chesseing a battle so easy is due to the scripting language. Bluntly put, there is no way around it, so deal with it. Powergaming is NOT neccesary to beat ANY of the improved encounters. As a moderately experienced tabletop DM, and a highly experienced tabletop player, I think that the improved encounters are more realistic than the Bioware default. The major limitation in BG2 is the lack of an active DM to prevent exploits. To my way of thinking, soloing BG2 IS powergaming, to an extent. If you have ever played D&D tabletop style, then you know that no sane DM would allow a weapon such as the Staff of Cheese into the hands of a player in his campaign, same goes for Carsomyr, Sanchudokku, Celestial Fury, the Cloak of Cheese, and too many more to name, without some kind of balancing factor, or extenuating circumstances. Yet when you solo BG2, not only can you get them, but you can have them all on one character! Most of Wes's mods simply take into account that you can, and probably will, have these semi-artifacts, and the encounters are scripted accordingly. I have come to define powergaming as a solo 14th level Kensai dualed to mage wearing the Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power, a Ring of Gaxx, Boots of Speed, Cloak of mirroring,and Dual-wielding Sanchudokku with ANY other katana. Oops, that would be Kuriosan, wouldn't it? My point is, consolidate enough powerful magic into the hands of one character, and you ARE powergaming. The improved mods aren't a trap to make you cheese through battles, the point is to make you THINK when you play, as you would be forced to in any campaign I have ever, or will ever run at home. Any mod that makes you think about what you do is a good one in my book.                    

Hendryk

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« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2003, 06:41:32 AM »
I agree with the Angered One to the extent that having random encounters (cheesy or not) that are much harder than most of the official game encounters does tend to spoil the flavor of the game.  Beyond that, I think the choice is a matter of taste rather than fact, so the argument can go on forever without resolution.

Cheers all.                    

foogla

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« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2003, 07:32:05 AM »
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If you've got Tactics installed, check the Tactics folder on your hard drive for Hints and ReadMe files.  It should be one of those.  (Don't know what Wes calls the file anymore--when I read it, it was part of the Solaufein mod.)
I found the Tactics ReadMe and the Kuro Hints file, no Kuro specific ReadMe. :/

I believe you though when you say he has undroppable items, and retract my statement.

*shakes his fist at Kuroisan, again*

Assassin

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« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2003, 07:53:01 AM »
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So how do you normally play to do it ? You put your mind to work like that: I'll face kukoroisan soon, I better create X X and X conditions to make the battle favorable, better have some X number of scrolls with breach or other magic removal means, or better have my party memorize more spell removals that they would normally do, better sleep after elhan, better not get to a place that will take too much travel time or I'll loose my protections, or better have some triggers, and even better be conviced that the guy I'll see is powerful cause if I take him for a regular enemy I'll probably have a guy die just to notice how powerful he is.

Um... I don't need any special buffs to defeat him, with my Spellcaster a Sorcerer.  I just need a couple of scrolls (as in spells to memorize with a high priority) which I buy as soon as possible (as in right out of the dungeon) and use them when he appears.

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Just one of the liches casted a lot of horrid wilts (but I think that could have been a bug), but even if he casted just a normal high lvl trigger of wilts, I would again say: Do you cast protection from magic energy before entering every abandoned building ? A normal party would really die there, period.

Then you either a) look at those pretty horrid wiltings and watch your characters die, or b ) realize that you're unequipped to deal with them, and back out of the building.                    



[!--EDIT|Assassin|Jan 8 2003, 03:54 PM--]

Bart

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« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2003, 10:20:34 AM »
Ok,

I'm interested in this discussion because Baldur's Gate II is my all time favorite game. I'm not a professional gamer....which seems like an important disclosure, I take my BG2 real serious but not too many other games. The point to that I guess is that, at this point, the people who still play Baldur's Gate 2 have filtered down to a pretty select group. The casual gamers are gone from the scene. So, a bit of powergaming is not exactly the wrong way for things to go. I have to confess, I get well into the powergaming aspect.....wanting as many badasses in my party as possible......i don't have any interest in the solo route....though i tried a 3 member and 4 member party one time. Yeah, it is ridiculous to have celestial fury and the holy avenger and that stuff....i have to confess that i've never had the staff of the magi....I must suck....

Anyway, I think the angry guy has a great point.....resting in a dungeon or even when there are time contingent pressures, supposedly, is totally lame. If you want to make the game harder, just make a rule that you only rest at the beginning or end of quests. Doesn't that sound reasonable? Of course, this doesn't work at all for me on the Senadal Quest for example, when you are so powerful that you can cut right through everything without hardly getting injured, so resting is not an issue.....i hardly cast any spells, even in the final sendai battle, except for breach and such like.

Some of the tactics mod encounters are very cool.....strangely, though, this time I defeated Mae'var easier than ever before...weird. The acid reflux Kensai I am weirded out by, because he damages my mage and then she can't cast spells....he hasn't kicked my ass, although he runs through the trapped locked door with the liches and then disappears.....he keeps saying its a bad day too, even though i barely injure him....weird. The lich in the Bridge District wasted me the first time with triple Wiltings...the next time he didn't do a thing before i killed him with azurdege.....again a middle ground would be nice. The random encounters....or not really random encounters....but reputation spawns for rep20 are really easy...for my level 12 party...i can basically just cast one or two spells and just wade through them..my biggest complaint about them is that picking up all their stuff to sell is too much work...yet irresistable, naturally...B)

I do think that some of the mod stuff asumes that every encounter is a one off, whereas the original game uses a wear you down a little strategy before a big one off encounter.

Especially the undeniable brilliant universal script.......sorry, but i don't want all those spells and potions used for every damn encounter! Can't there be a difficulty trigger....like say 75 percent hps?


On the buffs issue, the important thing is the spell duration.....stoneskin has such a long duration you can have it on almost all the time, but most spells you can't do this with....i usually set a contingency for stoneskin...enemy sighted, basic stuff. And sometimes if i can bothered, i have a spell trigger for some defensive spells.

I guess the other thing is....well, resist cheesiness....I am a very straightforward player......i tend to cast a few spells like greater malison or chaos, but apart from that i just use my fighters and attack the highest priority targets.....when i fought the guarded compound i used greater malison and then domination on the celestial fury fighter and detect illusions for the silly assassin, then got the celestial fury wielder to fight my battles...with my fighters helping out with the spell casters, of course....at the end i just got him to kill himself on the cleric's blade barrier.....ok....that's obviously cheese, right? Cause even a dominated warrior still wouldn't willing impale himself on a blade barrier. Sigh....its tough. I can't resist cheesy items like the shield of balduran....but agree that the ai for the beholders should be set to them not doing that....once they get damaged once, they aren't pyschic....but if the scripting doesn't allow that degree of specificity, never using the skill is sufficient...anyway, even if they don't use the talent, the suppressant effect is worth it.....geez, rambling now, its late in this part of the world.

Actually, I appreciate the weidu mods....the item up and tactics and ease of use and the baldurdash stuff....they represent the logical end of the game. The game's basically over for me now I guess, although I do have a bit of curiousity about the way it plays out with modifications, the mods make the point that its no longer really interesting as a game but instead as an intellectual exercise and surely there's something more interesting out there in that respect?

I'm really looking forward to seeing a Dragonlance version of Baldur's Gate though, that would be great......
Thanks for your time....
Bart                    

Sim

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« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2003, 10:29:16 AM »
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I'm really looking forward to seeing a Dragonlance version of Baldur's Gate though, that would be great......
Have you checked out http://www.dragonlancetc.com?                    

 

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