Valen Dual Wielding Claws

[mstaley007]

Why doesn't Valen have two claws instead of one? She has two hands, right? Maybe she should have two sets of claws and 'dual wield' her own hands.

That would seem realistic. Maybe to compensate make the level drain only 50% of the time. One hand or the other would do it, but not both.

If people abuse it by using her claws as weapons, well...that's not Westley's fault.                    

[Renmauzo]

I agree.                      

[insomnia]

I do this every once in a while, especially when storming the shadow thief guild.
Give Valens claw to another character. Then initiate dialogue with her and tell her to "check her claws". *Poof* you have two sets of claws for dual weilding.
                   

[mstaley007]

Insomnia - when you do that, how much does that improve her fighting abilities?

Also - what if Valen had level drain immunity and one of the equipped abilities for her claws was a 40 level drain. That way no one else could possibly use them and prevent people from borrowing the hand of Valen?

Mike                    



[!--EDIT|mstaley007|Jan 4 2003, 10:33 PM--]

[mobius327]

but permanent negative plane protection isnt that hard to get
                   

[Kish]

Even more importantly, Wes could make the claws unusable by anyone but Valen.  He just doesn't think it's worth the bother.

Check the ReadMe.                    

[mstaley007]

You can script something to ignore negative plane protection, right? Just call level drain something else. lol

Mike                    

[insomnia]

I never let other characters use valen's claws. . .someone just holds one while I make a second. That would be. . .well. . .wrong. At least for me.
Not sure how much it improves her fighting. . .but the extra attacks she gets from dualling can't hurt. she gets a decent thac0 with both hands.

Oh, I am pretty sure she is immune to level drain. . .I recently sent her up against dace and dont recall her losing any levels when wacked.

.ooM                    

[Michel]

Valen is already insanely powerfull when she reaches highlevels. Dual wielding Claw (which is legit of course) would unballance her even more imo.
                   

[insomnia]

Valen is already insanely powerfull when she reaches highlevels. Dual wielding Claw (which is legit of course) would unballance her even more imo.

                   Nonsense. . .sure, she can be overbalanced if she's played that way.
Personally, I limit her use of claws. . .usually give her a dagger or something. Dual weild claws when I want her to go berserk and cut loose.
Her immunities aren't unbalancing. . .most of my other characters have similar immunities from items.                    

[Michel]

So you don't think draining 5 levels per hit isnt unbalancing? Cast Improved Haste on Valen and let her fight some baddies then you'll see the result. Within a few rounds there isnt anyone left.
                     

[mstaley007]

I think we can all agree that Valen dual wielding her own bloody hands is realistic, right? The problem is just that she is already really powerful and a bit unbalancing to a degree.

As I suggested earlier....if she dual wields, why not only allow 50% chance of level drain with each strike for each hand. Mathmatically, she should be level draining at roughly the same rate as with only one claw but she gets more physical attacks.

Also....maybe making the level drain a special ability may be a good idea? Like she can only use it so many times a day and it will last for short periods of time. It's a really powerful ability and, although the D&D books may or may not say otherwise...I think we could get away with it here.

Mike                    

[Hendryk]

Rather than go throught the dual wielding hassle, why not just raise her number of attacks per round if using the claw?  It could have that effect as an item and that would simulate her fighting with each hand well enough.

As a penalty, maybe there's a way to tell if she's fighting in the sunlight or not.  If she is, not only wouldn't she level drain (or drain as many levels at least) but she'd have THACO and damage penalties as well.  Or perhaps a target in sunlight gets a save vs death to avoid the drain.

Lots of ways to go.  The point is to have the most satisfying "real" vampire in your group without totally trashing the game.

Edit:  And if you cannot be satisfied with her not having something to do with each hand, give her an undroppable 'Shield of Darkness' in her off hand and put some of her essential NPC characteristics in it.  Something so she goes 'poof' is she isn't using it - even at midnight.                    



[!--EDIT|Hendryk|Jan 9 2003, 05:53 PM--]

[insomnia]

So you don't think draining 5 levels per hit isnt unbalancing? Cast Improved Haste on Valen and let her fight some baddies then you'll see the result. Within a few rounds there isnt anyone left.
 

                   If you find it unbalancing to the point it is spoiling your game, then don't do it.
Have her attack with different weapons besides her claws, make use of the second weapon slot. Don't improve haste her. Whatever keeps the game challenging, entertaining or whatever.
                   

[mstaley007]

Why don't we redo Vampires so they're as good as Valen? Be good opponents

Mike                    

[Michel]

So you don't think draining 5 levels per hit isnt unbalancing? Cast Improved Haste on Valen and let her fight some baddies then you'll see the result. Within a few rounds there isnt anyone left.
 

If you find it unbalancing to the point it is spoiling your game, then don't do it.
Have her attack with different weapons besides her claws, make use of the second weapon slot. Don't improve haste her. Whatever keeps the game challenging, entertaining or whatever.

                   I took Improved Haste as an example because alot of peopel just use the Greater Whirlwind attacks which lasts much shorter then Imp Haste.


Yeah, I had her quite a few times in my party, I'm also a chronic restarter so I only reached the highest levels with Valen once. Then I noticed how she's capable of breaking scripts (Abazigal, Sendai comes to mind) So i never use her in a party anymore. I do use her when I play a Duo game (Just me and Valen)

Of course I use her claws, whats the point of having her claws just sitting  in her backpack. You don't keep your hands in your pocket when fighting eh? :lol:                      

[insomnia]

Of course I use her claws, whats the point of having her claws just sitting  in her backpack. You don't keep your hands in your pocket when fighting eh? :lol:  :P

heh, of course not.
But, if she's holding a weapon she can't use her claws to fight.
It's a matter of keeping the game interesting. . .with her claws, even at the lowest levels, many fights would just involve valen whacking the crap out of everything while the rest of the characters watch. While that makes the game a heck of a lot easier, it gets boring fast.
I just use her claws when I really wanna.

[Guest]

if you find valen is ruining your game just play with less characters, like 2-4.  That way she levels faster and your other npc's dont feel like the Valen Support Team.

                   

[Userunfriendly]

guys, read the readme file that wes included in the mod,,,he used to have valen's claws unusable by anyone else even with useanyitem ability, but he decided he is not the mod police, and took that feature off...



"Valen is already insanely powerfull when she reaches highlevels. Dual wielding Claw (which is legit of course) would unballance her even more imo."

try making her into a assassin fighter multi class using sk...thats power....

actually i think of the claws as already having a penalty...you see, if you level drain a monster fast enough, inflict a high level drain to past 0 when a monster is already hurt, you can shatter the monster, like hitting a low level monster with a cone of cold spell....when shattered, you can only recover gold off the corpse, you lose all magical loot...kinda like

if you want to play, you have to play the piper...

and the shatter effect will even destroy really good loot...i once for fun hit firky with 3 cones of cold with a 40th level sorceror and spell 50, i lost holy avenger, the red dragon scales and misc magic loot...so you can lose loot if you use valen too much...

but try using valen as a assassin fighter, she becomes living hell, especially once you exploit the game engine bug...fighter thief or assassin fighter multi, of course, can choose assassinate special ability multiple times, that and improved haste winnows thr mindflayers, and improved saughin city like a weedeater...dual claws, and she just really kills them by the score..

                   

[masteraleph]

Also...if you really want cheesy, dual wield the claws with Kundane (you'll need something to toss those profs into anyways, so why not short sword?)...not only do you get the random 1d6+2 (iirc) attack thrown in, but an extra claw attack.  And since it's the current claws, it'd be more powerful than if claws weren't destroyed when changing.                    

[Armisael]

Why should Valen dual wield her claws?  They aren't an actual weapon, they're a representation of a type of attack, the same way normal characters only have one fist.

I wonder if it's in any way possible to replace a character's default weapon.  That'd probably be a more authentic way of implementing Valen's claws.

[reiella]

The 'Claws' were balanced around the NPC standard of weapons.  If they have a natural weapon, it's typically just a single weapon with multiple attacks/rnd.  That is mostly done to get around an individual getting a dual wield penalty for using their natural weapons.

The unusable claws simply caused far far too many problems for Valen (stuff like her claws and armor disappearing or dropping to the ground).

[Guest]

Well, I think It would be OK to give her 2 unlimited spec abilities - CLAWS (like SpirHammer, Flame Blade or Melf) and REMOVE CLAWS. No hassle and robust.

[Grim Squeaker]

Well, I think It would be OK to give her 2 unlimited spec abilities - CLAWS (like SpirHammer, Flame Blade or Melf) and REMOVE CLAWS. No hassle and robust.

I agree.  Her claws should be summoned weapons that override whatever other weapons she is wielding.  By using the remove claws ability then she can use her throwing knives etc.  It also pretty much guarantees that other people can't use Valen's claws (unless they SK the abilities onto their character, but thats cheating...).

[Jessayla]

It's already cheating to take Valen's claws from her and use them on another character.  Why complicate things further?  It works as it is just fine.  

Just my two cents, anyway.