Author Topic: Finally finished Solaufein  (Read 21946 times)

Kaylord

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2002, 02:18:54 AM »
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I personally think the acending/romance ending is sad.

Yeah, he didn't try to talk you out of it because that's what you wanted.
Sola let's go of the PC because he loves them. It's as simple as that. I think it's the ultimate sacrfice of love.
Of course, it must be sad. But there is a difference between a tragic sadness and a sweet sadness. I basically like to see a sweet sadness in the Soula epilogue (IF he had not been so emotionally distant...).

The "ultimate sacrifice of love" is made by Viconia. She explicitly states that she wouldn´t want charname to stay because of her. When she confronted my pc Caedmon (Sorc) with that, *I* was really speechless... I just did not know how to respond.
She was right on the point: In the end I chose for Caedmon to become mortal. At first. But as Viconia anticipated, I had made that choice just because of her. I regretted that choice, not because she gets killed, but because I asked myself all the time "what would have been if...". Reload. Became a god.

There are so many parallels to real life... e.g. career vs. girl-friend. It hit me squarely in the chest. I still have no answer in real life.                    



[!--EDIT|Kaylord|Dec 18 2002, 10:27 AM--]

Hendryk

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2002, 02:28:30 AM »
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Yes, alignment isn't so much the issue. One can be evil and not seek or welcome certain types of power, responsibility, or consequence.
                   Right.  Especially since Cyric has such a head start on you and has already cast a beady eye in your direction.  I'm Evil, especially an evil mage or priest, I'm going to lay low awhile and await a "better time and season to the matter."                    

L_Jonté

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2002, 08:34:38 AM »
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The selfish thing to do is to stay because you don't want to be unhappy without your lover. The selfless thing is to become a force for good.
                   Hmmm... maybe.  It could also be considered quite the ego trip.  For my own part I understand why Solaufein keeps silent at the end.  Though it would be nice to see a bit of his unspoken turmoil.  

But, beg my PC to stay or not, they deserve a life together.  Sure, selfless is all well and good but let's not be a martyr about it.   :P                    

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2002, 09:50:47 AM »
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"And all his former comrades led a happy life, protected from every danger by the powerful god which charname became, until the end of their time, and when they died, the joyfully reunited with the powerful beeing who was once their comrade on the prime plane." - uh oh, why not...? I get the feeling the epilogues are made artificially sad...   ;)
One need look no further than the outrage over plenty of PC-STAYS epilogues to get the answer to this question, and I speak as one who has now penned double-digit BG2 epilogues*:

It is very, very difficult to accurately depict what the player thinks their character will go on to do with their life.

It's hard enough to do with romance epilogues. Accounting for all of the friendship possibilities would be very difficult, and in essence require a bunch of TOB conversations like "So, we're always gonna be pals, right?"... and appreciating as well that, just like high school, even those we promise most fervently to always stay close to may drift away.

Consider the Jaheira and Viconia romance endings. People (myself included) have screamed bloody murder over Gaider's assertion that our PCs and Jaheira did not have a terribly close-knit relationship, which is particularly noticable in his Ascension variant of the epilogue. And people have screamed bloody murder over the assertion that their PCs couldn't save Viconia.

I've heard some pushback on one of my new Jaheira epilogues along the lines of the Viconia argument ("My PC would NEVER let that happen! He is too uber!") but the bitch of it is, if you want to tell a story about the PC in the epilogue, you either have to write a TON of them and find a reasonable way to bring that out in dialogue, or you have to just take a good guess at what the PC is like, go with it, and roll with the punches. And sometimes they fly at your face faster and harder than others. :)

So, you pick your poison. I decided to assert some things about the PC for my Kelsey and Jaheira epilogues, and I've gotta take my lumps over it. Wes decided to more or less slot the PC into "The Solaufein Epilogue" which is actually a nice way to solve the problem, in a way.

*(okay, okay, 3 of the 11 are pretty similar, but that's still not bad, and I'm GONNA write more, so I'll be in legit double digits soon!)                    



[!--EDIT|jcompton|Dec 18 2002, 11:51 AM--]
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Kaylord

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2002, 11:01:33 AM »
Those guys/gals did kill dragons, wrestle with demi-gods and one of them transformed into a god in front of their nose...

They were touched and forever changed. And now they come back and start pretty normal life again? So you have to ask and compare: Would a Gandalf or an Aragorn get an epilogue like that?

So in fact, I like most of the epilogues, since they take this situation into account.
To take into account the multitude of player-tastes, it is necessary that the epilogues stay vague, concerning later deeds (in that aspect, the "normal" epilogues seem to be better than the "ascension" epilogues).

BUT...
... it really annoys me when the characters are described like doing a sort of "normal adventuring life" a "normal retirement". There should be some special quality which corresponds to that what they are and what they have been through.

specifically@jason: For example, having in mind that Sorcs are not *that* common in "2nd Ed"-BG, it remains to be seen where Kelseys power came from... perhaps he too has the blood of some god? A dragon? A demon? Or is he indeed a new creation, a homo superior, created by some meddlesome divine being? It need not be solved or even explained in the epilogue, but it needs to be there in some vague form which possibly hints at more ...
(all IMO, of course, so no need to take my - of course undodgeable - lighning fast punches ...  ;-)

And, of course, most annoying is the bland assumption that a charname-god of good and balance doesn´t seem to give a damn about his former comrades. It needn´t be such a happy ending like the one above (balance could stand against such an ending), but something, a hint that charname-god is actually there and has not simply vanished from any epilogue. There are powerful Clerics in Faerun who could have almost daily chats with their "superiors", after all. Why no contact with charname-god?                    



[!--EDIT|Kaylord|Dec 18 2002, 07:03 PM--]

Kiki

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2002, 11:55:49 AM »
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but something, a hint that charname-god is actually there and has not simply vanished from any epilogue. There are powerful Clerics in Faerun who could have almost daily chats with their "superiors", after all. Why no contact with charname-god?
I don't know much about Forgotten Realms gods, but it seems weird that you-as-deity wouldn't be able to sweep your honey off for some hanky-panky every now and then.


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Hmmm... maybe. It could also be considered quite the ego trip.
Right, although I was arguing a slightly different point at the time.                    

foogla

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« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2002, 01:15:49 PM »
I agree. I was surprised that no romance NPC got portrayed as the charname's proxy (if he ascends). It would be locigal and wouldn't force them into solitude. I know I would like to see Aerie gain wings like that. :/

L_Jonté

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« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2002, 01:29:17 PM »
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They were touched and forever changed. And now they come back and start pretty normal life again? So you have to ask and compare: Would a Gandalf or an Aragorn get an epilogue like that?

But does it necessarily follow that the epilogue should be completely unhappy?  

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I don't know much about Forgotten Realms gods, but it seems weird that you-as-deity wouldn't be able to sweep your honey off for some hanky-panky every now and then.

Right, especially a good aligned character/godling.  I really think there should be some kind of option for saying "Keep it warm for me sweetie!  I'll be back for ya as soon as I get these new god-pweres sorted out!"  I mean, Charname is a GOD fer cryin out loud!  If elevating one's squeeze to the ethereal plane isn't one of the perks of the job, then why bother?
                   

Kiki

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2002, 02:05:36 PM »
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Right, especially a good aligned character/godling.  I really think there should be some kind of option for saying "Keep it warm for me sweetie!  I'll be back for ya as soon as I get these new god-pweres sorted out!"  I mean, Charname is a GOD fer cryin out loud!  If elevating one's squeeze to the ethereal plane isn't one of the perks of the job, then why bother?
                   So, Jason, while you're writing epilogues, how about including something along these lines? :)                    

Offline jcompton

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2002, 02:30:04 PM »
Mmmm, no. Whether it's FR canon or not, Bioware wants to set up the choice as a meaningful one and I think that's worth respecting.

After all, if my PC could have godly powers AND give Jaheira etherial orgasm after etherial orgasm, well, yeah, sign him up! Duh! What's the downside? Being corrupted by the power of being the Lord of Murder? Nah, he'll be too busy screwing!

I chalk it up to the "godliness adjustment time" as well as the "entirely different plane of consciousness" issues. Kelsey more or less says what I think about the matter... it would be kind of like if you, now, could go back in time to your best friend from when you were three. You could... but what would be the point? It certainly wouldn't be the same kind of relationship. They couldn't relate to you as an equal as they could then, and you couldn't really get into the same mindset you had when the relationship was formed.

Besides, without that sacrifice, the choice lacks drama.                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Eocine

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2002, 02:35:58 PM »
I'd have to agree, it's far better that your P.C is freed up to take a crack at some of the other powers roaming the planes, rather than being stuck with his all to mortal prior love.                    

Sphira

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« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2002, 04:33:59 PM »
Well... from what I gleamed being a god in FR doesn’t offer eternal job security (technically, the only reason why the PC becomes a god is because a god DIED) and it’s got a lot of egos running around up there. So that’s why it doesn’t sound so wonderful to me, it sounds like a twisted soap opera. :3 It really doesn't sound too different than a mortal life, it just lasts longer. But that’s what I think, not what any of my PCs think. However this view point about the celestial goings on is second-hand information so my logic is probably flawed.                    

Tsuru

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2002, 04:44:30 PM »
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One need look no further than the outrage over plenty of PC-STAYS epilogues to get the answer to this question, and I speak as one who has now penned double-digit BG2 epilogues*:

*(okay, okay, 3 of the 11 are pretty similar, but that's still not bad, and I'm GONNA write more, so I'll be in legit double digits soon!)
                   And I salute you for that, Jason. What do you have, a giant-sized muse? :)

I cannot imagine that there will ever be epis that satisfy everyone. With the amount of writing that goes into a mod, if one tried to have an epi for every possibility, the things would make the files the size of Texas. Have pity on the poor muses out there, please :D
                   

Hendryk

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2002, 05:07:06 PM »
I know I posted this once before but it got buried, whether by a simple rush of new ideas or by indifference, I don't know.  So I'm going to repeat myself.

MOD for post-ToB!

Why should the game end when Bioware says it does?  There are thousands of role-playing options for a character that stays mortal.  If there are divine modders out there, there might even be some choices for a PC who becomes a god (both Norse and Greek myths have some lively epiodes).  So don't try cramming everything wanted into a few epilogue paragraphs.  I agree completely with Jason that this is impossible.  Consider doing a mod (or mods) and play it all out.  There are certainly enough different preferences out there to be starting with.                    

Userunfriendly

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2002, 05:10:59 PM »
boy, think of the giant muse trap jason has in his house!!!think of the huge wedge of cheese in the muse trap....


ooooppppssssssse.....

meant mouse trap....hhahahhahahahha

i really shouldnt laugh...i just got authorized to write an epilog to be included in imoen romance tob, and i am in creative labor pains myself...

no, jason, wes, you cant do a caspy epilog until i finish writing mine, and lord m releases it...i came up with the idea first, so i get first crack at it...

so far, i am thinking of having the first ever epilog written as first person...

"hello...me caspinar, and me suppose to talk to you about what happens with me after the great and powerful bhaal fought melissan at the throne??? hey, who you suppose to be anyways??  oh yeah, i remember yous, you that mage volo, who used to tag around elminster a lot, until he kick you outsa the door....you got a steady gig now??  oh, yousa writer now???  makes sense, cause neighbors talk when a person no work, but he just says he is writer, no more whisperings and giggles..."

i also have some bathroom humor planned out...but yeah, its a lot harder than i thought it was going to be..sigh...                    

Userunfriendly

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2002, 05:14:11 PM »
AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

must avoid jar jar syntax at all costs....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!                    

Eocine

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2002, 05:16:23 PM »
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Well... from what I gleamed being a god in FR doesn’t offer eternal job security (technically, the only reason why the PC becomes a god is because a god DIED) and it’s got a lot of egos running around up there. So that’s why it doesn’t sound so wonderful to me, it sounds like a twisted soap opera. :3 It really doesn't sound too different than a mortal life, it just lasts longer. But that’s what I think, not what any of my PCs think. However this view point about the celestial goings on is second-hand information so my logic is probably flawed.
                   By "Take A Crack At" I meant more that I'd expect my God P.C to be chasing Sune 'round the heavens, as oppose to chasing Cyric. You know actually enjoying his godhood.                    

Tsuru

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2002, 05:16:24 PM »
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Why should the game end when Bioware says it does?  There are thousands of role-playing options for a character that stays mortal.  If there are divine modders out there, there might even be some choices for a PC who becomes a god (both Norse and Greek myths have some lively epiodes).
I would *love* that, but my mind boggles at the thought. I'm looking forward to After the End too :) The possibilities are are definitely endless. I just don't know enough about the Realms yet to even think of attempting such a thing, I'll just stick with what I'm doing now :)

(You are *not* gonna tempt me into silliness here, Use! :P )                    



[!--EDIT|Tsuru|Dec 18 2002, 04:23 PM--]

Sphira

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2002, 05:24:51 PM »
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By "Take A Crack At" I meant more that I'd expect my God P.C to be chasing Sune 'round the heavens, as oppose to chasing Cyric. You know actually enjoying his godhood.
                    :lol:                    

Hendryk

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2002, 05:33:23 PM »
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I would *love* that, but my mind boggles at the thought. I'm looking forward to After the End too :) The possibilities are are definitely endless. I just don't know enough about the Realms yet to even think of attempting such a thing, I'll just stick with what I'm doing now :)

                   Right.  I personally don't know anything about FR except what's in the game and according to other posts, a lot of that's wrong.  

So what?

Let the PC return to Amn (it's much more fully populated than Tethyr) and try to retire peaceably into the old stronghold.  Every power group in Amn would have an opinion on that - starting with the Council of Six.  And none of these opinions would conduce to the PC's living a life of rustic repose.

I know Silverose is already tackling a lot of this but she knows a whole lot about FR and her interests are decidedly elsewhere.  So, with a little cooperation, a "trying but failing to settle peacefully in Amn" mod could serve as a preliminary option to what she does intend.                    

Userunfriendly

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2002, 05:36:34 PM »
"Take A Crack At"

i just got this mental image of a divine handiman, sent out to repair sune's leaky roof, up in the heavens, and this godling is quite corpulent, and is wearing a tool belt, and sune gets treated to a peek at a godlike "contractor" crack showing on his back as the magical toolbelt pulls down his pants....

sorry, sorry.....


"i came up with the idea first, so i get first crack at it..."

oh great, nowi am quoting myself....hhehehhshhhahahahahahha


actually chasing sune around the heavens sounds like a good addition to the ascention caspy epilog i am trying to write....

hahahha...made you smile and giggle, tsuru....hahhhahahha....see, even made you tempted....
 :rolleyes:  :D  :lol:  :o  :P  B)                    

Kiki

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2002, 05:39:55 PM »
Having not followed the development of After the End that closely, my current opinion is, what's the point? It doesn't get much more epic than godhood/no godhood, and the actual prospect of sending my level-30-plus party against fire giants (sorry, Solaufein) or other such mundane enemies sounds dull. If post-TOB mods were more diplomatic or intellectual challenges, that might be OK.

To borrow from the Anomen romance epilogue, I'd rather have a general indication of noble deeds and lucrative ventures, and the adventures never truly ending (sigh, what a nice epilogue that was), rather than be confronted with the actual tedium of the tasks themselves.


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Mmmm, no. Whether it's FR canon or not, Bioware wants to set up the choice as a meaningful one and I think that's worth respecting.
Pity. :) Not that I don't follow (and agree) with your reasoning.


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it would be kind of like if you, now, could go back in time to your best friend from when you were three.
Peculiarly enough, a few years back I followed some random web link and discovered my best friend from when I was four (whom I hadn't seen since then). We had a surprising amount in common, such as political views.

Back to our regularly scheduled program ...                    

Hendryk

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2002, 05:54:13 PM »
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Having not followed the development of After the End that closely, my current opinion is, what's the point? It doesn't get much more epic than godhood/no godhood, and the actual prospect of sending my level-30-plus party against fire giants (sorry, Solaufein) or other such mundane enemies sounds dull. If post-TOB mods were more diplomatic or intellectual challenges, that might be OK.

To borrow from the Anomen romance epilogue, I'd rather have a general indication of noble deeds and lucrative ventures, and the adventures never truly ending (sigh, what a nice epilogue that was), rather than be confronted with the actual tedium of the tasks themselves.

Right.  No one is going to want to go kobold-bashing at this point.  What interests me though is how people would react to the PC's return.  The PC is sole representitive of the Bhaal-spawn bruhaha.  Is the PC the new God of Murder Incarnate?  A lot of ordinary people are going to think "Yes" regardless of what the 'Wise' say about it.  How would the common folk at the DeArnise Keep react to being ruled by such a personage?  Especially one who's acquired a drow (Sola) for a honey?  Would they flee en masse?  Beg the Roenals to rid them of this new Curse?  And how would the other (ignorant) nobles react?  Nalia herself if not a party member?  Just this one case could offer a lot of role-play options with no fighting at all unless the player got sick of it and decided to slaughter everyone.                    



[!--EDIT|Hendryk|Dec 19 2002, 02:00 AM--]

Kiki

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« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2002, 06:14:47 PM »
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What interests me though is how people would react to the PC's return.
                   Hm. Could potentially be interesting. I think in general, rather than sitting in front of a computer selecting dialogue options, I'd be more interested in reading good fanfic on this topic, or doing a live roleplaying sort of thing, or even just discussing it on a board like this one.                    

Hendryk

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Finally finished Solaufein
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2002, 07:29:48 PM »
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Hm. Could potentially be interesting. I think in general, rather than sitting in front of a computer selecting dialogue options, I'd be more interested in reading good fanfic on this topic, or doing a live roleplaying sort of thing, or even just discussing it on a board like this one.
                   Obviously, it wouldn't have to be limited to dialogue; I overstated that in line with my own preferences.  But it should be limited significantly in line with the PC's level - after all, how many guards, assassins, etc. are actually going to commit suicide by taking the PC on?

Say, for instance, that a Good PC is the target of a whispering campaign, accusing him/her of secret, vile practices.  Nailing the originator of that would take a lot of role-play, some new magic spells (e.g., - ESP) and have the chance for misguided violence as well.  For instance, the secret base that is somehow tied in with the scandal-mongering is really the new base for true Harpers in Athkatla.  Wiping them out (which the initial impression might indicate to be reasonable) would be a very bad move since they're after the same target you are.  Say, Isaiah Roenal has reverted to slave trading in addition to being the source of rumors about the PC.  Killing the Harpers not only relieves the pressure on old Ike from that source but enables him to set the PC up on a murder charge.  That kind of role play.                    

 

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