Author Topic: Brooding on Soula-Romance  (Read 21461 times)

Kaylord

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2002, 03:05:37 AM »
Quote
*peeks at the quote by Raistlin* Oh my goodness! :rolleyes: That sounds so 'Machoistic' I can't stand it!! :lol:
I always ignore guys talking like this: "I kill him asap." (Mostly witnessed in context with Anomen-discussions). Yeah, they are sooo cool!!! They kill an npc because that oneīs annoying them! Wow! Cool! See me shivering? brr!

Maybe I am really to deep into a game, but still, I cannot understand why so many people talk so light heartedly about killing an npc, even though itīs only a game. They do a so primitive display of feigned superiority.

It is the opposite of role playing. How about trying to get along with an inconvenient character? Or just drop him out of the party, after role-playing in your head the appropriate excerce of leadership? Or even trying to understand how and why that one is "annoying"?

And "annoying" for whom? Who is the "I" who is annoyed? IMO, the player should not involve himself, but rather be more like reader who observes the plot, the setting, the characters of his choice develop. The pc as a person who is not you!

Did some of you ever try to construct a pc who would get along with for the player "annoying" characters?

(For example Anomen? What could Anomen probably give to a pc so that she would truly fall in love with him? IMO, it would NOT be the too-oftenly portraied Paladin-Heroine, seeking a "matching" partner. It would be the opposite; a sarcastic, dis-illusioned she-rogue, who is provoced by and admiring a guy who is able to maintain such a facade of idealism as Anomen, over time recognizing beneath the same urgent yearning for a happy and good world, sharing the disappointments that it is not to be, fascinated by the entirely different way he handles it, finally helping him - despite herself - to remain that what he is)

No, most want to play the shiny perfect or supercool character who needs a matching perfect partner...

(*points to the SWFB remark of jcompton*).

@jcompton: I can only support your observation, and I believe it is a rather "tragic" consequence coming from that observation. There are very few who speak about a different person when talking about their pc. Sometimes I am tempted to say that only doing so corresponds to true role playing. You give the pc a unique and somehow different character than yourself as player have, and try to develop this character in the game. Itīs not you, you could probably learn from the pc, by trying to simulate him/her as a truly independend person, independend from "I". Itīs so enriching, giving you as the player/observer an entirely new perspective. Very few do that, and itīs a loss. They are so blind.

*broodbrood*   :)

Well, maybe itīs the best way to do it like Sphira, pointing it out as "machoism" and laughing amusedly. Yeah, I think thatīs best... though Iīd like to mention that there are probably also female "machos" out there.                    



[!--EDIT|Kaylord|Nov 29 2002, 11:18 AM--]

Tsuru

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2002, 03:51:00 AM »
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@jcompton: I can only support your observation, and I believe it is a rather "tragic" consequence coming from that observation. There are very few who speak about a different person when talking about their pc. Sometimes I am tempted to say that only doing so corresponds to true role playing. You give the pc a unique and somehow different character than yourself as player have, and try to develop this character in the game. Itīs not you, you could probably learn from the pc, by trying to simulate him/her as a truly independend person, independend from "I". Itīs so enriching, giving you as the player/observer an entirely new perspective. Very few do that, and itīs a loss. They are so blind.
Interesting. I generally do tend to construct a personality for my PC, choosing class/pic/etc with that in mind. It's just a natural thing to do for me.  I guess it comes from years of freeforming, who knows for sure. That's part of the charm of it for me, becoming a different persona, doing things I wouldn't do as myself.  I have to wonder sometimes if those who don't do that come from a "hack n slash" generation (not to put anyone down, honestly).

I had an interesting conversation with a chatter in the place I work at the other day about roleplaying.  He was telling me he didn't like a certain type of game because it was "too wordy".  I spent half an hour talking to this kid, trying to explain to him the difference between "role" playing and "roll" playing. Thankfully he was open minded enough to listen, and even is plotting  how to get BGII on his limited income. Hopefully I made a convert who will come to love roleplaying for roleplaying, not just hack n slash :)

Tsuru


                   

Corvis

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2002, 03:58:12 AM »
Quote
Maybe I am really to deep into a game, but still, I cannot understand why so many people talk so light heartedly about killing an npc, even though itīs only a game. They do a so primitive display of feigned superiority.
                   Pointless, unceasing brutality is the universal language, you know.                    

Hendryk

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2002, 04:06:57 AM »
Quote
@jcompton: I can only support your observation, and I believe it is a rather "tragic" consequence coming from that observation. There are very few who speak about a different person when talking about their pc. Sometimes I am tempted to say that only doing so corresponds to true role playing. You give the pc a unique and somehow different character than yourself as player have, and try to develop this character in the game. Itīs not you, you could probably learn from the pc, by trying to simulate him/her as a truly independend person, independend from "I". Itīs so enriching, giving you as the player/observer an entirely new perspective. Very few do that, and itīs a loss. They are so blind.
                   I agree about the tendencies of "most" gamers but not that this is necessarily undesirable.  Relatively few people are such natural actors that they can remain interested in characters much different from themselves for very long; it's usually enough of a stretch just playing themselves in an exotic setting.  If they try, boredom is much the more likely result than enrichment.  If JC can find this aspect of role-play personally rewarding, good for him but I don't see why he should mourn for others who lack his capacities - or perhaps his tastes.                    

Corvis

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2002, 04:09:28 AM »
Dammit. Not sure what happened there. If someone would be so kind as to delete the double posts, and this one, I'd be much obliged.                    

Kaylord

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2002, 07:22:05 AM »
And most of them do not even play themselves, but put together some incoherent wishes of coolness, superiority, or something other which makes them "special".

No itīs not undesirable. Itīs fun, most of the time. But they should be aware of the difference to true role playing, which most are not.

And itīs me mourning, not JC, and I am really and positively surprised (and glad) that someone noted the underlying differentiated line of approach at all.  :)                    

Hendryk

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #81 on: November 29, 2002, 07:37:09 AM »
My apologies to JC then.  I had thought the paragraph following the initials was a direct quote.                    

domi

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2002, 08:47:50 AM »
Quote
Quote
*peeks at the quote by Raistlin* Oh my goodness! :rolleyes: That sounds so 'Machoistic' I can't stand it!! :lol:
I always ignore guys talking like this: "I kill him asap." (Mostly witnessed in context with Anomen-discussions). Yeah, they are sooo cool!!! They kill an npc because that oneīs annoying them! Wow! Cool! See me shivering? brr!

Maybe I am really to deep into a game, but still, I cannot understand why so many people talk so light heartedly about killing an npc, even though itīs only a game. They do a so primitive display of feigned superiority.

It is the opposite of role playing. How about trying to get along with an inconvenient character? Or just drop him out of the party, after role-playing in your head the appropriate excerce of leadership? Or even trying to understand how and why that one is "annoying"?

And "annoying" for whom? Who is the "I" who is annoyed? IMO, the player should not involve himself, but rather be more like reader who observes the plot, the setting, the characters of his choice develop. The pc as a person who is not you!

Did some of you ever try to construct a pc who would get along with for the player "annoying" characters?

(For example Anomen? What could Anomen probably give to a pc so that she would truly fall in love with him? IMO, it would NOT be the too-oftenly portraied Paladin-Heroine, seeking a "matching" partner. It would be the opposite; a sarcastic, dis-illusioned she-rogue, who is provoced by and admiring a guy who is able to maintain such a facade of idealism as Anomen, over time recognizing beneath the same urgent yearning for a happy and good world, sharing the disappointments that it is not to be, fascinated by the entirely different way he handles it, finally helping him - despite herself - to remain that what he is)

No, most want to play the shiny perfect or supercool character who needs a matching perfect partner...

(*points to the SWFB remark of jcompton*).

@jcompton: I can only support your observation, and I believe it is a rather "tragic" consequence coming from that observation. There are very few who speak about a different person when talking about their pc. Sometimes I am tempted to say that only doing so corresponds to true role playing. You give the pc a unique and somehow different character than yourself as player have, and try to develop this character in the game. Itīs not you, you could probably learn from the pc, by trying to simulate him/her as a truly independend person, independend from "I". Itīs so enriching, giving you as the player/observer an entirely new perspective. Very few do that, and itīs a loss. They are so blind.

*broodbrood*   :)

Well, maybe itīs the best way to do it like Sphira, pointing it out as "machoism" and laughing amusedly. Yeah, I think thatīs best... though Iīd like to mention that there are probably also female "machos" out there.
                   Well, I remember the whole topic about "how much your PC is like you"? And the majority of people were saying: very much so.

The personality of the PC is restricted by the game. Whatever development you do to him/her would still have to fit into the 3 standard answer choices. Fanfiction helps.

Killing/bullying NPCs by PCs makes me wonder as well. Unless the game suggest you have to choose between the two and do not have much choice in the matter. It is a bad and dangerous strategy in life when travelling in remote areas with a group of people to allow quarels/fights. If it is done in the game, it can only mean that your PC has weak/unsufficient leadership skills.

As for Anomen being for a wizened rogue  :rolleyes: . I thought of a motherly type, say some cleric, yearning to have kids since she is herself a child.                    

Sphira

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #83 on: November 29, 2002, 06:48:28 PM »
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As for Anomen being for a wizened rogue  :rolleyes: . I thought of a motherly type, say some cleric, yearning to have kids since she is herself a child.
                   And thus this is why we have lotsa mods for different PC characters. ^_^

Kelsey is for characters who don't have issues beyond what's said in the game. Notably humans or half elves who don't have problems.

Anomen is for characters who have patience to put up with his grief long enough to see why he's a total jerk and want to help him. As Domi-san said, motherly types like clerics or paladins of any ‘humanish’ race are ideal.

Solaufien, IMO, is for outcast types. :3 Technically, is he the only one who’ll romance a female half-orc PC if you don’t have any alternation mods?  :huh:                    

Kish

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #84 on: November 29, 2002, 07:06:07 PM »
I believe so.  Also the only one who'll look at a dwarf of either gender, or a female gnome.                    

domi

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #85 on: November 29, 2002, 07:34:54 PM »
Well, I think Kelsey is also for a PC who requires more caring/sharing from a romance partner. he also has a very interesting blood conflict. Or it is my over-active romantic imagination... Kelsey is a sorcerer, something which is relatively new in the Realms and also sorcerers have blood of dragons or gods in their veins. There is a mystical attraction/kindred of blood between Kelsey and PC or Imoen.

Talking about other NPCs in BGII, my best bet for an interesting romance was (apart from Kivan) Naljier Skal. That's the bard who does gems in Spellhold. I was thinking him to be a Tolkien's Noldor, brought by Lavok Corthala to Faerun when he was still a man (Lavok, not Naljier)  and was researching the nature of immortality. Then Irenicus got a hold of him... As a Noldor he'd be able to offer an interesting first-hand insight into the nature of godhood and immortality, he can debate Irenicus etc.                    

Offline Kai of CandleKeep

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Re: Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #86 on: December 12, 2004, 06:16:24 AM »
Wow, I can't believe I read through this entire thread        :-Zzz :-Zzz :-Zzz    j/k   ;D

Going back (long ago, in a post far, far away...) to what I believe to be the original topic of this thread:

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Hi, all. Having advanced the game nearly to the end of SoA, I fell into bed at Saturday 6 a.m. I was wakended Sunday late afternoon by a call from my girl-friend. Three hours later finished, I sat there brooding, and ...

ENLIGHTENMENT

... asked a question which I will gladly pass onward to the wise(wo)men in this forum:

Did you find the Soula romance satisfying? (Nope not the question but preparing ground)

My answer: Well, errrr,.... perhaps I found something missing...

Yes. 

I've always loved Solaufein since the first time I played the mod a year ago (I used to post as Celandra Silvermoon), and I've always been attracted to his dark, brooding and poetic soul.  There really *is* something sensual about a man who can (GASP!) think thoughts deeper than where the next mug of ale is coming from or what pickup line to use on that "pretty little Calimshite lass that just walked into the Copper Coronet..."

BUT (yes, there's always a but) I *did* wish there was a little more tenderness involved in the romance, not necessarily raunchy hell-raising sex (although I'm not shy to admit, I don't mind that at all --- Viva Tsujatha!), but perhaps a few quiet interludes between Solaufein and PC.  I know a lot of mods come with flirt packs now, so perhaps this might be the solution for those who find Solaufein lacking in "affection".

Aside from his poetry (which is what makes him who he is, and that must never be changed!), some of the scenes my imagination cooked up in between battles, were things like a small private smile exchanged at random, a gentle touch on the shoulder, a meaningful look.  Simple things like that.  Player-initiated, as well as NPC-initiated random flirts. 

They don't have to be as complex as the ones Anomen does (I just can't see Solaufein adjusting my armor straps).... but it would be something very Sola-like to find a book lying open on my bedroll, a single flower lying on it's pages, to mark a specific passage of poetry he thought I might like to read.  No words necessarily exchanged, just little thoughtful gestures that all the hopeless romantics like me would love to see.

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So, hereīs the question:

WHERE

IS

THE

CONFLICT!!!

It wouldn't suit Solaufein to become overbearingly jealous and possessive.  It just *isn't* him.  But I *could* imagine him with a hurt look in his eyes if I decided to check out the wonders of the Ust Natha lust chambers (probably a bad example, maybe Lady Galvena's Feasthall or something... fill in the blanks), or if I flashed Anomen a salacious grin.  I wouldn't expect him to challenge Anomen to a duel or anything, but I *would* find it odd that he would not, at some point, express *some* hurt or dissappointment (especially if the romance has progressed to a more serious stage).  Anyone who loves anyone would react that way, in certain situations. 

As far as the conflict goes, I think his soul-searching regarding his part in Phaere's death and his "place" on the surface is enough for the PC to deal with, it gives a basis for some very deep conversations which are already in place in the current version of the mod.  *This* aspect is very gratifying in itself, because intelligent conversations *are* sexy.  But as I already mentioned, I wouldn't mind punctuating our philosophical discussions with a little kiss or a gentle touch on the cheek from time to time.

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pc:
Can I really trust and fall in love so simply with a drow, a race which you experienced as living nightmares, emotional aliens? Soula seems really to be different, but can I really and in general love someone, knowing my dark soul could possibly take over and destroy everything, especially him? Would it not be better to keep distance in order to protect the one I could, I do, love deep in my heart, in order that he may be kept save from me?

Soula:
Can I really *trust* the pc, having experienced so painfully how Paere was turned against me? She is blood of Baahl, a power in a mortal soul, death only a step afar to equal Lolth, darkness lurking, murder not only of live, but also murder of souls. Can I dare to show my affection, my true feelings, or, be it even love which I believed has died forever with Paere? If I can do this, do I not distract her then from fighting the evil essence within her, bothering her with my feelings? She needs every support she can get, but perhaps showing her my feelings, daring to waken her feelings, will weaken her and turn the evil instinct unforgivably against her. I should know, I witnessed it with Paere...

It could be simplified, but that's about the jist of what I would like to see. 

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- "Now letīs dance" ? (omy I thought, Soula finally shows some fire...).
  Dancing is romantic    :D

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- "Now letīs walk into the woods" (mygodnowwearedoingit... nope, a godess is interfering, if not interapturing...).
Even MORE romantic! (Damn goddess!)   >:(

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- "shut up and kiss me"
  Hell yeah!

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(thatīs good! but where is the part where you actually get to this point in a relationship, where you can be this tender and close? "letīs dance" is a good point to start from, but thereīs still something missing!)
  Yeah.. the tender, sweet kisses.    :-* :-* :-*

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Without some sort of conflict, IMO a romance seems a bit bland. Right now, Soula seems to me a bit too emotionally distant in that sense.

No fighting.  I'm tired of fighting all the time.  I just want some good lubbinz from my favorite drow!

@Wes:  Sorry this post is so long, but I just HAD to put my $0.02 in.   I love this mod, it was the first one I ever installed after I found out there WAS such as thing as a mod!  And here I am a year later, still playing it....You must have done *something* right     ;)
Having a highly active imagination can be very taxing on the purity of one's soul at times...
- Sir Kalthorine ut Wistan

I find you amusing... in a "What the hell is wrong with you?" kind of way...
- Jaheira, BG1

Offline weimer

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Re: Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2004, 12:01:07 AM »
I've always loved Solaufein since the first time I played the mod a year ago

Thanks for your kind words.

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BUT (yes, there's always a but) I *did* wish there was a little more tenderness involved in the romance,

You and many others. Sola predates the "flirt pack" notion (as you suggest) and I've been too lazy to provide him with one. There's the nominal promise of much more "flirting" from the Workshop people, but I haven't heard much from them directly.

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were things like a small private smile exchanged at random, a gentle touch on the shoulder, a meaningful look.  Simple things like that.  Player-initiated, as well as NPC-initiated random flirts.

That sort of thing actually sounds quite lovely for Sola.

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Anyone who loves anyone would react that way, in certain situations.

I wasn't really interested in coding up conflict -- the payoff/effort ratio seemed low. Most people trying the Sola romance are presumably romancing him and not stringing him along only to reject him. I'm not very good at writing that sort of conflict, actually.

Quote
Quote
- "shut up and kiss me"
  Hell yeah!

What would we ever do without Kiki? I've been very remiss and should congratulate her for unrelated things.

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No fighting.  I'm tired of fighting all the time.

I'll agree with you there. Actually, I probably said something above. Basically, I don't believe that conflict is essential to romance.

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Sorry this post is so long, but I just HAD to put my $0.02 in.

Not at all. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Offline catling

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Re: Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2007, 05:50:27 AM »
Here's my two cents worth :)

Personally, I'm definately a Sola fan. I found him to be one of the most intelligent NPCs and thouroughly enjoyed the philosphical aspect to his conversations. He had a haunted backstory and the manner in which he comes to terms with his old life and now new life on the surface was overall well done.

I agree, the Sola romance is a little bland. It's not the lack of conflict that irritated me (as it did in the Kelsey romance), but rather the lack of intimacy. Sola is a very deep character - didn't seem right to me that he didn't convey that level of depth on an emotional level with the PC. The philosophical debates are great, but it could have been taken a step further - i.e. conversations about Bhaal, and being ruled by destiny/choice/blood etc. etc.

It should be noted that the Sola flirt pack is in beta right now and soon Sola lovers shall get the spice they've been waiting so long for ;)

My main complaint about the mod is how tough the battles are. I only really play BG2 for the story and character interatcion hence I like NPCs, so when undead Sola comes along I basically want to hurl my laptop across the room in sheer frusration. The only other criticsm and this is no one's fault, just inconvenient, is that it takes forever to find our favourite brooding drow.

Overall though, I love this mod. I love the fact you don't have to coddle Sola, or treat the relationship like it's a piece of your wedding china. I kinda just wish it was as large as Kelsey - loved the depth of Kelsey and how long and involved the romance was, just found his personality grating on my PC. Also I like Valen and Kelsey dumps me everytime I side with Bodhi. *sigh*



 

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