Author Topic: Brooding on Soula-Romance  (Read 21446 times)

Sphira

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2002, 04:47:45 PM »
Quote
2) Talking about foreign audience: I saw the following  points of critisism on my national BG board:

a. Solaufein cannot be good aligned (agrees to kill the gnomes, kills Phaere, attacks PC if he is discovered in Ust_Natha - I know that the last point was addressed in some version 50+) and his in-game version is not the same as his modded version. I was kicked off the board shortly after for defending rather hotly and wordily Solaufein's good alignment and good name.

                   You better defend Sola about the deep gnomes, at the least! He honestly didn't want to kill 'em, that's why he got all bitchy about Phaere sending him off to kill them and trying to act like he was above doing that. If he didn't he would of been hurt or killed.

And as for his in game verison, his alligment is lawful netural. I think that's the 'stock' aligment for the minor NPCs that aren't villians or some special class like rangers or paladins. If Solaufein was really bioware I'd suppose he'd be chaotic netural but they'd proably have an aligment change to make him chaotic good or good netural if the char romances him.

Quote
b. Solaufein is bi-...but that seem to be a major turn-off for people everywhere.


That's just silly. :P I don't see why people have that problem with anyone bisexual. :huh: Maybe it's something with bisexual men in general.                    

Doewen

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2002, 06:30:44 PM »
Can it really be said that he killed Phaere?  He made copies of dragon's eggs.  PC used the copies in a way that resulted in her death.  I don't think that it is an absolute that he knew her death would result unless one equates defeat with death in the drow society.                    

Doewen

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2002, 06:33:23 PM »
Can it really be said that he killed Phaere?  He gave the PC copies of dragon's eggs.  PC used the eggs in a way that resulted in her death.  I don't think that it is an absolute that he knew that her death would result from those eggs, unless one equates defeat to death in drow society.                    

Hendryk

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2002, 06:39:23 PM »
By the time Solaufein gives the second copy of the eggs to the PC, Phaere has already ordered the PC to murder Sola and he is in hiding from her.  Under these circumstances, the eggs manuver shouldn't disallow his being CG.                    

domi

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2002, 07:57:30 PM »
Quote
Can it really be said that he killed Phaere?  He gave the PC copies of dragon's eggs.  PC used the eggs in a way that resulted in her death.  I don't think that it is an absolute that he knew that her death would result from those eggs, unless one equates defeat to death in drow society.
                   Defeat is equated to death in Drow's society, I believe.  ( At the mortality rate Salvatore picturing it is a wonder that the drow were not extinct centuries ago. )

I do not think that any of his actions disallow his good alignment. IMHO, the alignment manifests itself differently under different circumstances. Solaufein's ability to see and deny the common ideology votes him as "good" in a surfacer's POV and as a dangerous maniac in a drow POV.  Anyway, discussion on alignment is always a difficult one.

And of course we looked into the Case of the Gnomes...                    

Kish

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2002, 07:58:15 PM »
Quote
Can it really be said that he killed Phaere?  He gave the PC copies of dragon's eggs.  PC used the eggs in a way that resulted in her death.  I don't think that it is an absolute that he knew that her death would result from those eggs, unless one equates defeat to death in drow society.
                   When he gives CharName the eggs, he gloats that he'll be waiting to hear of not only Phaere's death, but the destruction of her House.

Mind you, I don't see anything nonGood about that (although whether it's compatible with the Solaufein who tells CharName that killing Phaere gnaws at him is another matter).                    

L_Jonté

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2002, 07:59:50 PM »
Quote
Mind you, I don't see anything nonGood about that (although whether it's compatible with the Solaufein who tells CharName that killing Phaere gnaws at him is another matter).

Have you never done something out of spite then felt guilty about it later?  I know I have.  B)                    

Kish

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2002, 08:11:00 PM »
What Solaufein feels guilty about later (killing Phaere) is actually a lot lighter than what he actually did (indirectly killed an entire House).  How can he go from gloating over the death of the House to hand-wringing guilt over the death of one of the two most verifiably evil members of said House?  I daresay it makes a difference that he once loved her, so it's plausible, but now that I look at it, it seems kind of...self-indulgent and ugly, actually.*  It would be nice to have a dialogue option to say something to Solaufein like, "You were gloating over causing the downfall of the House!  You know, better than I do, that when a drow house falls from grace it gets entirely wiped out, down to the children.  Couldn't you, I don't know, find someone with a little less blood on her hands to feel guilty about killing?"

* The combination of, "Nyah-hah-hah, we're going to wipe out House Despana!" with, "Oh, woe is me, I killed Phaere!" seems self-indulgent and ugly.  I have no trouble seeing Solaufein's complicity in destroying the House, on its own, as fully justified and compatible with being Good.                    

Offline jcompton

  • Niche Exploiter
  • Administrator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 7244
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2002, 09:24:39 PM »
...but as long as we're digging up this year old argument, I'll say that I think Bioware's designation of LN was deliberate rather than random and very much fits the profile of who the Solaufein we meet is: a professional soldier who, at long last, has become disillusioned by the politics his service supports, not to mention his own impending execution. Solaufein isn't working to destroy Phaere and House Despana over a dubious war with the surface elves or gnome-slaughter.                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

L_Jonté

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2002, 09:40:33 PM »
Right.  The Solaufein that BioWare gave us is not the same Soalufein that Wes created.  Kish, you may find the Mod-Sola's guilt to be too little too late, but what else would you have?  If he were to "wring hands" any less, he wouldn't qualify as a good character (or at least as a nice character.)  If he were to do it more he would spend ever singl dialogue wallowing in guilt, shame and self-pity.  And Aerie already does that plenty.                    

FlatulentOne

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2002, 09:41:22 PM »
I really think quibbling over Solaufein being bi-sexual is rather ignorant. I mean, come on folks, firstly, it's only a game, and secondly, I think he was made that way to allow everyone to be romanced by him. I am an open person, so even real bi men don't bother me, nor do homosexuals. It seems childish to me to fuss about the lifestyle someone chooses. To put things in my perspective: it isn't my life, why should it bother me? Honestly I don't let other people concern me until they become close to me, and even then I realize that I am me and they are them. If I allow another's choices to bother me. what keeps mine from bothering them? Ach, there I go again, getting all personal...                    

domi

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2002, 09:48:20 PM »
Well, some people are more conservative I guess and it has a certain gossipish ring to it.  Awkwardly I have heard only from males that it bothers them. Especially if they play a male PC. I was always wondering why WW just did not transfer the romance and Solaufein's role to NN drow female, say Phaere's sister in case if the PC is male. Would dissolve the whole issue.                    



[!--EDIT|domi|Nov 28 2002, 11:59 PM--]

Kish

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2002, 10:00:22 PM »
Quote
Right.  The Solaufein that BioWare gave us is not the same Soalufein that Wes created.  Kish, you may find the Mod-Sola's guilt to be too little too late, but what else would you have?  If he were to "wring hands" any less, he wouldn't qualify as a good character (or at least as a nice character.)  If he were to do it more he would spend ever singl dialogue wallowing in guilt, shame and self-pity.  And Aerie already does that plenty.
                   I would rather he either felt guilty about killing the whole House instead of fixating on one member...or didn't express guilt about it at all.  I disagree that it would say anything negative about him if he didn't feel guilty.  His remorse is not "too little too late," but rather, "completely misdirected and thus laughably inappropriate."  There were people who really might have been good who died because of his actions, and Phaere wasn't one of them.  At the same time, if he had done anything else, it would have led to the Lesser Demon Lord being unleashed upon the surface elves.  Guilt for wiping out the House would be appropriate.  No guilt at all would be appropriate.  Guilt for Phaere combined with no guilt for her five-year-old siblings is--oh my, I'm having another flash of insight into how Wes sees Aerie!--self-indulgent whining.
Quote
Well, some people are more conservative I guess and it has a certain gossipish ring to it. Awkwardly I have heard only from males that it bothers them. Especially if they play a male NPC. I was always wondering why WW just did not transfer the romance and Solaufein's role to NN drow female, say Phaere's sister in case if the PC is male. Would dissolve the whole issue.

Maybe he doesn't want to dissolve the whole issue.

I know if I wrote a mod, a guarantee that homophobic people wouldn't download it would be a plus, not a minus.

Besides, he wrote the mod because Solaufein appealed to him--not "Phaere's sister."                    

domi

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2002, 10:27:56 PM »
You are probably right, Kish. I thought before that WW did it to have the romance to be absolutely open as opposite to carefully restricted BioWARE.                    



[!--EDIT|domi|Nov 29 2002, 12:28 AM--]

Sphira

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2002, 10:39:53 PM »
Quote
Guilt for Phaere combined with no guilt for her five-year-old siblings-
                   I don't think Solaufien should feel any guilt for Phaere's hypothical little sister. According to Phaere most of her siblings are dead, anyway. She killed them herself. (I'm checking this out asap.)  Solaufien proably wouldn't feel guilt towards the house (namely Phaere's mother) because the house in his mind was responsabile for changing Phaere's personalty.                    

Kish

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2002, 11:09:50 PM »
Phaere's mother is not the House.  If Solaufein truly doesn't feel guilt for killing everyone (including small children) in the House because he mentally equates the entire House with Phaere's mother, then he is morally defective and ought properly to be labeled Chaotic Evil.

In other words, you're making Solaufein out to be much worse than my impression of him.                    

L_Jonté

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2002, 11:32:41 PM »
Ugh.  This conversation is starting to make my brain hurt.   :blink:                    

Kiki

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #67 on: November 29, 2002, 12:26:12 AM »
Quote
mod development is driven by the people who get in my face about it (e.g., Kiki).
Hey, they don't call me the Chief Standard of Happiness (in training) for nothing. Besides, all my requests went unanswered until Lisa weighed in on the same side, so I'm not convinced that I should be credited/blamed here.

I hear a lot of people complain about Solaufein being bi, including some women. ("He'll do anything with two legs, so I don't feel that special" was one rather peculiar comment on the BIS boards, back before I got tired of the inane posts and bad grammar so prevalent there). Some rejections are more amusing than others, such as this post by Raistlin on the Return to Windspear board:

Quote
I remember trying the Solaufein mod. A bisexual, good-aligned Drow prancing about reciting poems, I could only take so much of. He was...laid to rest (by Sarevok), then his soul eternally destroyed (by me uninstalling his ass). This is personal opinion, but Solaufein was a much better character before I was aware of that mod. I kill him everytime I encounter him as his normal self just for what he may become.

Truth be told, the Bioware Solaufein is my favorite NPC, but Weimerfein is a nice fellow too.                    



[!--EDIT|Kiki|Nov 29 2002, 08:31 AM--]

Sphira

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2002, 12:48:22 AM »
Kish

It’s been established that few innocent bystanders would be hurt during the fall. Phaere says so herself she killed most of her sisters and those who are left are still scheming for power.

As for blaming Ardulace, I should apologize. I didn’t explain it better than I should have. My theory is that Solaufien would have a personal vendetta towards Ardulace for what she did to Phaere and dislike the house of Despana due to that. However he seems to know what Despana was doing was wrong and could lead to a war. So it’s my belief that Solaufien is more chaotic neutral. *shurgs*

But I think the whole gloating over the fall of Despana is bioware’s fault. ]_] Before you get the piwawfi cloak from Solaufien when you spare him he tells you he doesn’t want war between his house and the house of Despana. Then suddenly he gloats when he gives you the eggs. I call that not the best of writing. :)

Anyhoo I didn't mean to establish any harsh feelings.

Kiki

*peeks at the quote by Raistlin* Oh my goodness! :rolleyes: That sounds so 'Machoistic' I can't stand it!! :lol:
                   

Kiki

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2002, 12:48:35 AM »
Quote
I would rather he either felt guilty about killing the whole House instead of fixating on one member...or didn't express guilt about it at all. ... Guilt for Phaere combined with no guilt for her five-year-old siblings is--oh my, I'm having another flash of insight into how Wes sees Aerie!--self-indulgent whining.
While I hesitate to get into a battle of nitpicking with Kish, I think that Solaufein should indeed feel guilty about Phaere in particular. He loved her once--shouldn't he feel guilty that his actions led directly to her death? Love and guilt make for a potent combination, and while his mind can reason that her death saved the lives of many others, no doubt his heart is not so easily convinced.                    

Kish

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2002, 01:11:32 AM »
Quote
Phaere says so herself she killed most of her sisters and those who are left are still scheming for power.
Does she? : shrug: Does she also say that she killed most of her nieces and nephews?  That there is not a single child under the age of...say, twenty in all of House Despana (making the House unusual indeed)?  Does she say she has a way of picking out any Eilstraee-worshipers who might be hidden in her House?  (Solaufein, in the absence of any evidence whatsoever that Phaere is not a monster and in the presence of overwhelming evidence for her evil, speculates that she might have been faking her evil, after all.)
Quote
But I think the whole gloating over the fall of Despana is bioware’s fault. ]_] Before you get the piwawfi cloak from Solaufien when you spare him he tells you he doesn’t want war between his house and the house of Despana. Then suddenly he gloats when he gives you the eggs. I call that not the best of writing. smile.gif
He only says he doesn't want war between the two Houses if he still thinks you're a drow.  I wouldn't put too much faith in his word then.

Kiki: Solaufein has an 18 Intelligence.  Might he feel guilt over killing Phaere and not feel guilt over killing decidedly-more-innocent family members of hers?  Sure.  Is it appropriate for him to indulge such feelings--to fret over killing Phaere and not give a thought to the rest of her House?  Not if he wants to claim a better moral sense than...any other Good-aligned character in the game :coughAeriecough:, it's not.                    



[!--EDIT|Kish|Nov 29 2002, 09:47 AM--]

FlatulentOne

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2002, 01:33:34 AM »
I know I'm gonna get it for this, but here goes...
As to the potentially good children in House Despana: Elves, and presumably Drow, have very low birthrates. The assumption that Phaere may have slaughtered all her kin to consolodate power, then, really isn't all that unfounded. As to the guilt, Sola personally knew Phaere and Ardulace, but he never mentions knowing anyone else of that House. While this argument swings both ways, I think it makes more sense to grieve over the life of the one person you know and cared about than over the whole house. Ardulace was quick to put Phaere in line when she strayed from the path of vileness, so one would assume that she did likewise to all members of her household. I don't think that his neglect to feel bad over the destruction of Destruction of Despana truly precludes goodness.                    

Kish

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2002, 01:41:06 AM »
Matron Mother Ardulace would definitely have Something to Say about it if Phaere slaughtered all her kin to consolidate power (quite aside from the increasing laughability of questioning Phaere's commitment to evil)--especially if Phaere had no children of her own yet (and if she did, there was the question of their claim on innocence).  Drow noble houses tend to large families because that guarantees them succession.  If the only two living nobles of House Despana were Ardulace and Phaere, the House was extremely vulnerable (and atypical of any House, even a minor one, much less such a powerful House).  In fact, I seriously doubt it's even possible for a House to be accurately termed "powerful" with only two high priestesses (and only the Matron Mother and her daughters can become high priestesses).                    



[!--EDIT|Kish|Nov 29 2002, 09:48 AM--]

Sphira

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2002, 01:58:16 AM »
Quote
Matron Mother Ardulace would definitely have Something to Say about it if Phaere slaughtered all her kin to consolidate power (quite aside from the increasing laughability of questioning Phaere's commitment to evil)--especially if Phaere had no children of her own.
                   I suppose... but I thought it was normal for drow to kill their sliblings to achive power?  :unsure: And I don't see why Ardulace would be championing her daughter to have childern if that's the case. Grandkiddies also mean more people to kick Grandma's bucket.                    

Kish

  • Guest
Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2002, 02:06:28 AM »
To kill some of their siblings to acheive power, preferably timed right after the victims have messed up in some way so that the Matron Mother doesn't have a reason to object.  Not to wipe them all out and leave the house vulnerable to invasion.  And if Phaere didn't have children of her own, then the House would stop at her generation--not something Ardulace would want.                    

 

With Quick-Reply you can write a post when viewing a topic without loading a new page. You can still use bulletin board code and smileys as you would in a normal post.

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What color is grass?:
What is the seventh word in this sentence?:
What is five minus two (use the full word)?: