Author Topic: Brooding on Soula-Romance  (Read 23281 times)

domi

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Brooding on Soula-Romance
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2002, 09:41:55 PM »
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                   Given your distribution method, there is no way you could reliably distribute new dialogue with Kelsey or Solaufein, no.

Yep, that's what I meant.

They could be built as separate WeiDU modules. Are you talking about banters, or romance conflicts?

Banters. Valygar's RA goes to 2 only in his one-before-last ToB talk, effectively allowing other romances to run simultaneously until that moment. At least I hope it works that way. Rats, when I am to start playing?

Solaufein and Kelsey do already banter with Valygar, although it's "Weimer's version of Valygar, as heckled once by Compton but praised by Kish" and "Compton's version of Valygar, as heckled by Kish who still isn't very happy with them", not "Domi's version of Valygar."

Well, I saw Kelsey's and Sola's SoA banters with Valygar, they are alike, Sola's more involved. The problem is that they dwell on "Valygarhatesmages" issue, while the banter pack I made for Valygar extends over wide range of topics, like love, life, characters past and present, Valygar's relatives, etc.  Also JC, would WeiDU banters run if modified Valygar is installed? It would suck if they would not.                    

Kish

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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2002, 09:48:12 PM »
Alike...?

A conversation that leaves us with "Valygar is more worried about the damage irresponsible mages can cause than prejudiced against mages" is identical to a conversation that leaves us with, "Valygar believes, even after going through the Planar Sphere, that magic is inherently corruptive period and has a very high probability of damning the mage"?

 :blink: O-kay, now I'm worried about your new mod.                    

domi

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« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2002, 09:52:03 PM »
In terms that I think in both of them Valygar promises to whatch after Solaufein/Kelsey in the end and they are centered around magic. But Kelsey's I saw about half-a-year ago... And I am trying to add conversations which will not involve magic. I think there is enough of those in the game as is. Valygar deserves to be looked upon as something different than "mage-hater" Ther is so much more to him: how come he is an atheist in the Realms full of gods? Who are those misterious Corthalas? Is it truth that his parents did not love each other? Why did he quit military service? What he really thinks of his mother? Etc, etc, etc... I once got a comment on my fanfiction that I am trying to "humanize" Valygar. That's exactly what I am doing. Yes, his character is built around hatred of mages, but I do not believe that it's his only passion.                    



[!--EDIT|domi|Nov 27 2002, 12:02 AM--]

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2002, 11:25:01 PM »
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Also JC, would WeiDU banters run if modified Valygar is installed? It would suck if they would not.
                   It would work like anything else: gotta install the Vladworks first, then the WeiDU mod(s) of your choice.

We'll talk.
                   
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Kaylord

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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2002, 01:44:38 AM »
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Why would you like to change this uniqueness? May be you are better of looking for a more conflictuous male romances to "spice" the game up and enjoying Solaufgein as he is? On the side I should note that deep love is often manifested as quietness.
                   *snief* I only want one male with a proper "epic" romance. I donīt know whether at least Kelsey is that, but I sort of "reserved" him for Imoen, so heīs "out" for my pc...

The rest is all about suspension of disbelief. First, I do not trust a harmonizing-only relationship. In that case you can be sure that some problems are hidden and one day, they will erupt. Second, as it is, I miss emotions; itīs just too damn rational at the moment. Emotions come up by experiencing and defeating his own personal barriers, or those imposed by some external factor.

And last: You love someone because he gives you something, which necessarily had to be missing before. I do not see what Soula and the pc could possibly give each other, apart from a somewhat superficial (because emotionless) philosophic debate.

Well, ok, it seems that I am a minorit in here...  :rolleyes:                    

Kaylord

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« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2002, 02:20:49 AM »
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Why would you like to change this uniqueness? May be you are better of looking for a more conflictuous male romances to "spice" the game up and enjoying Solaufgein as he is? On the side I should note that deep love is often manifested as quietness.
                   *snief* I only want one male with a proper "epic" romance. I donīt know whether at least Kelsey is that, but I sort of "reserved" him for Imoen, so heīs "out" for my pc...

The rest is all about suspension of disbelief. First, I do not trust a harmonizing-only relationship. In that case you can be sure that some problems are hidden and one day, they will erupt. Second, as it is, I miss emotions; itīs just too damn rational at the moment. Emotions come up by experiencing and defeating his own personal barriers, or those imposed by some external factor.

And last: You love someone because he gives you something, which necessarily had to be missing before. I do not see what Soula and the pc could possibly give each other, apart from a somewhat superficial (because emotionless) philosophic debate.

Well, ok, it seems that I am a minority in here...  :rolleyes:                    

Hendryk

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« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2002, 03:00:37 AM »
Maybe each of them just needs someone else to care for.  The PC's been on the road and Sola wouldn't have found much outlet in Ust Natha either - especially considering how his involvement with Phaere worked out.

Too, it would seem natural enough to for a couple to postpone addressing many of the issues you raise until highly urgent and immediate problems (Irenicus and then the Five) had been dealt with.  In After the End, Silverose is working on a mod set after the events of ToB.  If any third-party difficulties between her and Weimer could be worked out, that might be the place for a lot of the Sola effects you'd like to see.                    

domi

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« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2002, 08:04:52 AM »
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                   *snief* I only want one male with a proper "epic" romance. I donīt know whether at least Kelsey is that, but I sort of "reserved" him for Imoen, so heīs "out" for my pc...

-Kelsey will not romance Imoen in SoA, so you can easily romance him in SoA and then if you do not like him, let him look at Imoen in ToB. If you do like him - stick with him. He has plenty of conflict: his sorcerer's issuies, Anomen and Sola jealousy, some odd pregnancy thinggy-

-The rest is all about suspension of disbelief. First, I do not trust a harmonizing-only relationship.-

I do. I had both types. So fiery that I crossed Atlantic twice running away. And a soft harmonic sort. The best one.

-In that case you can be sure that some problems are hidden and one day, they will erupt. Second, as it is, I miss emotions; itīs just too damn rational at the moment. Emotions come up by experiencing and defeating his own personal barriers, or those imposed by some external factor. -

WW siad he wants it understated. No harm in that, really. Solaufien cutting PC's throat in a fit of rage and "Underdark syndrom" does not strike me as very much in the spirit of the mod.

-And last: You love someone because he gives you something,-

Untrue. You love because you love.

-I do not see what Soula and the pc could possibly give each other, apart from a somewhat superficial (because emotionless) philosophic debate.-

He is a computer simulation after all....

Anyway my advice stands: look into Kelsey, you might enjoy it better.










                   

Kaylord

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« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2002, 01:28:47 PM »
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I do. I had both types. So fiery that I crossed Atlantic twice running away. And a soft harmonic sort. The best one.

(snip)

Untrue. You love because you love.

(snip)

Anyway my advice stands: look into Kelsey, you might enjoy it better.
                   Domi, thanks for your points. But I realized that we both start to bring in personal experiences and philosophies. No use in discussing this, since you canīt convince others with arguments or proofs on this matter. Originally I just wanted to suggest how to "improve" the romance. And, by thinking of various literature, I believe bringing in conflict and more emotions would be really the best way to do this.

BTW, sorry, Kelsey is not my type.   :P                    

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2002, 01:50:30 PM »
You might consider giving him a shot in TOB before giving up entirely. This may sound goofy coming from me, but--the writing is way better. Seriously.                    



[!--EDIT|jcompton|Nov 27 2002, 03:51 PM--]
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

domi

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« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2002, 04:33:06 PM »
Lol, since we are on a promotional drive, try Valygar; not many will like him, but may be he will fit your bill, who knows.                    

Kaylord

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« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2002, 02:15:20 AM »
@domi: could you give me a link to that Valygar-mod? I liked Valygar very much since he was, until Soulafein, the main "Mr broody-pants".

@jcompton: Iīll sure keep Kelsey in the party, but my concern for our "little sister" is sooo overwhelming that I really prefer to promote their relationship (me pc having plenty of choice, after all)  :D BTW; I find the writing in SoA is really good, no need to excuse taht with even better writing in ToB; I am looking forward to that! Kelseyīs a very nice person and self sure enough to keep his own cousel. His story with that brigand band was great, I almost could see him, standing on a hill, casting fire and doom on the camp and walking away lonely, feeling evil and cowardly at the same time...

*Sigh*

Kelseyīs just not the type for my pc; sheīs bitchy, whimsy and needs someone who does give opposition, who can get over a kick and still is able to endure her without beeing a yes-sayer (she and jaheira were became best friends in BG1, after some serious bitchy arguments, of course). A stupid oaf like Anomen.... he deserves her.

I would like Soula to be her guy, but at the moment she treats him more as an affair, first bored by him, then provoced by his life-distant musings and philosophing (*friendly slap on Soulas back* "Deadbaahl, welcome to life, and, by the way, lifeīs a bitch, my dear Soulafein!" - "I see that you lead your live in harmony insofar." - "Yeah, good, have some fun, too..."), finally surprised and amused - and interest sparkled - by his dry and intelligent humor (see the Imoen and Anomen banter), all the way beeing emotionally drawn towards him by the darkness he symbolizes as a drow, imagingly mirroring her own, thrilled by the prospect of doing something "forbidden", something probably no surface elf has done before: sex with a drow!

But right now I tend to the conclusion that Soulaīs emotionally too distant to really hold my pc for long.

Anyway, thatīs my own internal role playing. Great Game, great modding, it leads to soo many different stories! Yep.

 :lol:
                   

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2002, 03:00:17 AM »
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Kelseyīs just not the type for my pc
This is interesting and something that I've rarely seen mentioned about other mod romances. Occasionally someone will say "My barbarian PC kicked Aerie's teeth in the minute she started moaning" or "Viconia's just too bad for my LN Cleric" or whatever, but I've rarely heard someone say the same about Solaufein, or Tashia for that matter. Usually, the decision is made at the player taste rather than the "character fit" level.

And for Kelsey, that certainly happens as well, that at the player level people either like or don't like the romance. But a non-zero number of players have told me that, even after a few attempts, they were unable to come up with a PC who was interested in his romance, even though as players they were at least somewhat interested in seeing it. Maybe this is the "epic" problem? (SWFB* seeks man to sweep her off feet, give her epic loving befitting her station)


* (SWFB: Single White Female Bhaalspawn)

I wonder why? And Wes, am I actually imagining things and people all the time have said that they can't come up with a _character_ to match Solaufein? Domi and Kish have observed the "helps if you're a good-aligned philosophy buff" phenomenon, but then, most people seem to let their characters fill in as needed, I've rarely heard of it as being a stopping point, a "no, I terminated the romance because it just wasn't working for my character" kind of thing.

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Iīll sure keep Kelsey in the party, but my concern for our "little sister" is sooo overwhelming that I really prefer to promote their relationship (me pc having plenty of choice, after all)

Sounds good. Hope you like Kelsey/Imoen. Occasionally someone says that it makes them want to bury an axe in Kelsey's face, but I think by and large I accomplished my goals (which were, more or less in descending order of importance, to give Imoen someone to be nice to her, to give players another reason to take Kelsey outside of a PC romance, to give Kelsey something to do if he wasn't romancing the PC, and to improve upon what I saw as a somewhat unsatisfying Imoen epilogue.)                    



[!--EDIT|jcompton|Nov 28 2002, 05:04 AM--]
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Kaylord

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« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2002, 06:01:51 AM »
*** Kaylord deleted his own incoherent stupid babbling and replaces it as follows ***

Hey, in the end, itīs not my "pc", but always "me". "Me" seems just to be too deeply embedded into those fictional characters, I fear, so that I try too much to make them more "real".

Just one word on "epic": In a story, someting has to be told. So *tell* me something, and that is different from just *describing* things, like a character, or the life-story of a character. The storie must in addition "give" something to me - or my incarnation, the pc - else, why should I bother?

So, yes, IMO, the romance has to be epic (read: worth telling). That does not mean it has to be a perfect character for a SWFB!!! On the contrary! I believe a non-perfect character/romance, who/which develops to a "perfect" stadium, lets you exerience a lot more. That is why I miss conflict and/or emotion on Soula.

It is mentioned in the description that there will be conflict between Kelsey and PC, so I guess thatīs ok, at least to my standards. ;-)
Is the Imoen-Kelsey romance also a bit loaded with conflict?                    



[!--EDIT|Kaylord|Nov 28 2002, 02:35 PM--]

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2002, 08:37:09 AM »
Not every LT begins and ends with a contented sigh, if that's what you're asking. :)                    
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Kiki

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« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2002, 11:01:36 AM »
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Just one word on "epic": In a story, someting has to be told. So *tell* me something, and that is different from just *describing* things, like a character, or the life-story of a character. The storie must in addition "give" something to me - or my incarnation, the pc - else, why should I bother?
This was one of the problems I had with Kelsey. Most of the other NPCs at least had a reason for coming along--Jaheira feels a certain sense of responsibility, Anomen wants glory and honor, Korgan wants to get filthy rich--but I don't recall a reason for Kelsey tagging along. He was just some guy that had started following me, somewhere along the way. Not someone with a deep dark secret or a mysterious family history that was intertwined with Amn's storied past or whatever.

I did laugh my head off at the Anomen/Kelsey duel, though.

Conflict for the sake of conflict wouldn't be overly interesting, I don't think. Conflict due to differences in character or tragic flaws would be OK.

Back to my Thanksgiving responsibilities now.                    

Offline weimer

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« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2002, 11:49:30 AM »
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I wonder why? And Wes, am I actually imagining things and people all the time have said that they can't come up with a _character_ to match Solaufein?
There was a time when there were so few (romance) mods around that I got feedback from people who didn't like the idea of installing Sola. Now presumably they all go somewhere else (either to another author or somewhere else in Weimer-land: I can hardly count a "I love the tactics mod: great battles!" message as a blow against Sola.) In the "modern era" of incredible mod choice, people tend to pick some subset of the roughly two dozen mods available and then just tell me that they like that subset: I no longer hear why they discarded the ones that were not included. Only a few brave souls like Kaylord and Domi bother to tell me that they were displeased.

That being said, I do have quite a lot of data from the past.

Number 1 Reason For Not Choosing Solaufein: "Dude, he's gay!" Sad but true. Excuses of the form "I can't bring myself to romance a character who is possibly homosexual, even though he won't be in my particular game if I play a female" outnumbered all others. Total number ... at most 6?

Number 2 Reasons: "I'd love to tryout Solaufein now, but my character is already promised to SomeoneElse in my current game." I got two or three of these.

After that big winner there were a number of "peculiar" reasons voiced by more or less a single person.

Ex: "He's not voiced." Htn963 is the only member of this faction.

Most Solaufein criticism comes from people who have already tried the romance. It tends to fall into some rather large bins as well:

(1) "Solaufein is not interactive enough, I can barely tell that he's there, my PC seems to be doing all the work." This has been replaced by:
(2) "Solaufein is too interactive, and when he deigns to voice his opinion to NPCs my soverignity as unelected-dictator-for-life of the party feels threatened."
(3) "Solaufein features battles that are too hard." Despite much gnashing of teeth, fewer than ten people have said this explicitly.
(4) "Solaufein doesn't say enough after he sleeps with you." I don't really get this one anymore, but at least three or four people mentioned it at one time.

Now for the real interesting bits:

About 33% of all Sola page views come from that time zone that appears to have Italy and Germany in it (and 10% come from the adjacent ones). Falk, Pamm, Luciana and to a lesser extent Dyara have taken the time to give me a non-English-speaking perspective, and I get quite a few "I need help installing Solaufein and I'm from Europe, please forgive my English" messages. However, I get basically no feedback from such people. Either they all hate the mod and drop it immediately (unlikely) or it would be too much effort for them to translate their opinions into English for me so they don't. Are a bunch of you out there actually Germans and Italians (or whatnot) who have been fooling me with a perfect command of English?

About 25% come from this Hong Kong / Japan / Western Australia time zone. I have gotten at most one or two pieces of email total from China or Japan with respect to mods.

The conclusion here is that about half of Solaufein's users (apparently) don't even talk to me about the mod and mod development is driven by the people who get in my face about it (e.g., Kiki).

Does that help, or did I sidestep your question?                    

L_Jonté

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« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2002, 12:43:36 PM »
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(4) "Solaufein doesn't say enough after he sleeps with you." I don't really get this one anymore, but at least three or four people mentioned it at one time.

I've mentioned it.  But then, I believe that Soalufein should be the first NPC to be allowed to have sex more than once.  And getting the PC in bed again would certainly be easier if he actually talks to her.   ^_^


NOTE to Jason: If you feel the need to tear your hair and say how you've already progammed Kelsey to boff like a bunny...  Don't.  I haven't gotten to that point yet.   :P                    

Kish

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« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2002, 12:49:41 PM »
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Ex: "He's not voiced." Htn963 is the only member of this faction.
                   I hope you mean Htn is the only one who considers lack of voicing a gamebreaker, rather than the only one to care about it.

If not...: raises a hand, then waves to Domi: Hey!  Domi!  Get over here and repost what you posted about Solaufein's lack of voicing!                    

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2002, 01:19:38 PM »
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I've mentioned it.  But then, I believe that Soalufein should be the first NPC to be allowed to have sex more than once.  
NOTE to Jason: If you feel the need to tear your hair and say how you've already progammed Kelsey to boff like a bunny...  Don't.  I haven't gotten to that point yet.   :P
                   Heh, okay. I'll point out instead that it's not true anyway. :)

At least Aerie and Anomen have one interlude each in their SOA and TOB LT sequence. I'm pretty sure Viconia has at least two built in to SOA, but I could be misremembering.
                   
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2002, 01:22:13 PM »
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Does that help, or did I sidestep your question?
                   Um, sort of. I suppose there is a large implied group of users whose PCs have told Solaufein they don't swing his way, but has anybody said

"You know, I tried playing my CN bounty hunter PC with the Solaufein romance, but I found that he just couldn't give a flying leap about golems and that was a major turnoff to him. Then I tried playing the Solaufein romance with my female shapeshifter, but she found that she was more interested in howling at the moon than dancing under it, so after she found out he was into dancing she just didn't want anything more to do with him."

?                    
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Kish

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« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2002, 01:28:49 PM »
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At least Aerie and Anomen have one interlude each in their SOA and TOB LT sequence. I'm pretty sure Viconia has at least two built in to SOA, but I could be misremembering.
                   Yes, Viconia does have...let's see...I count four in SoA and one in ToB, though one of them will kill the romance and there could be more I'm not thinking of...places where specifically mentioned sex can occur.  Aerie has one in SoA and two in ToB.  Anomen has one in SoA and one in ToB, and Jaheira actually comes in dead last with only the one in SoA.  And there's the fact that, to all appearances, you spend most nights with your love interest once the relationship becomes sexual (with the exception of Aerie; you spend most nights with her when romancing her in ToB, but only have a chance for one in SoA).                    

L_Jonté

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« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2002, 01:32:07 PM »
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At least Aerie and Anomen have one interlude each in their SOA and TOB LT sequence. I'm pretty sure Viconia has at least two built in to SOA, but I could be misremembering.

I don't know about the female NPC's, and Anomen got the bum's rush after his appalling SoA performance.                      

domi

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« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2002, 02:07:28 PM »
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Quote
Ex: "He's not voiced." Htn963 is the only member of this faction.
I hope you mean Htn is the only one who considers lack of voicing a gamebreaker, rather than the only one to care about it.

If not...: raises a hand, then waves to Domi: Hey!  Domi!  Get over here and repost what you posted about Solaufein's lack of voicing!
                    :) I would, but by now I know that finding a male willing to lend his voice to a modded lover is a task for a person who combines talents of Loyola, Mackiavelli, Kennedi and Braveheart... That's why I do not "voice" my critique again for that...Though it would be awfully nice...

2) Talking about foreign audience: I saw the following  points of critisism on my national BG board:

a. Solaufein cannot be good aligned (agrees to kill the gnomes, kills Phaere, attacks PC if he is discovered in Ust_Natha - I know that the last point was addressed in some version 50+) and his in-game version is not the same as his modded version. I was kicked off the board shortly after for defending rather hotly and wordily Solaufein's good alignment and good name.

b. Solaufein is bi-...but that seem to be a major turn-off for people everywhere.

c. Solaufein translates the whole game back to English (?) I doubt that one, but...
                   

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2002, 04:12:28 PM »
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c. Solaufein translates the whole game back to English (?) I doubt that one, but...
                   Yes, you're right, that's a big lie. Solaufein is, I'm pretty sure, the most widely translated mod and it definitely won't change a single non-mod line to English.                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

 

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