Author Topic: Valen romance  (Read 78465 times)

Ziad

  • Guest
Valen romance
« on: October 29, 2002, 05:02:01 PM »
Just a question for Wes: is there a plan to include a romance for Valen?                    

Offline weimer

  • Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2222
  • Gender: Male
    • WeiDU and Weimer Mods
Valen romance
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2002, 05:14:04 PM »
This topic has been the subject of much debate in the past. Many people think that a Valen romance woudl be appropriate. Many think that a redemption would be appropriate. Others think that she is evil beyond redemption. Others think that no romance is appropriate.

I was waiting for some sort of consensus, but it looks like that will never happen.                    

Auvrin

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2002, 05:21:43 PM »
A better question would be; Do you still have plans for adding dialoge and a hell summon for Valen in TOB?


Romance... Redemption....

As much as I enjoy Valen as a character... She's a vampire... Not only that, but she's a cold blooded killer.  In my mind, someone this evil wouldn't even consider a romance. (and the fact that your group is evil for having Valen in the party would make the PC evil as well.  If not you're just cheesing the game.)  The PC being evil would NOT trust Valen at the end of a leash let alone in a romance.  Redemption... Why?  Part of what makes Valen so interesting is the FACT she is so evil.  (and yes, I know this has been debated over long and hard, but... It's almost common sense factors at play here.  Not to mention I would rather see Valen have continued dialoge in TOB rather then nit picking the idea's of wether to romance/redeem her  :rolleyes: )  Just my opinion as always.                    

Offline weimer

  • Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2222
  • Gender: Male
    • WeiDU and Weimer Mods
Valen romance
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2002, 05:24:47 PM »
I keep forgetting about the ToB summon thing. I've put that on the TODO list. Have any suggestions for the hell dialogue?                    

Auvrin

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2002, 05:31:48 PM »
It would actually be interesting to see some sort of incorperation with her taking up someone else as her Master/Mistress, possibly Imoen considering she had her soul swapped around..

If you go that way, you could lean in on the "You wish further death by my hand, Mistress?"  and if you never met her "You... bare the scent of my dead Mistress.. I do not know you, or how you come by such, but I feel tied to you in some fashion.."

In my opinion it would be rather funny to see a cold blooded killer in the service of the happy-go-lucky Imoen.  I suppose if you tried to make Imoen redeem her, it would be a bit more realistic that way.                    

Piker

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2002, 06:27:56 PM »
Quote
A better question would be; Do you still have plans for adding dialoge and a hell summon for Valen in TOB?


Romance... Redemption....

As much as I enjoy Valen as a character... She's a vampire... Not only that, but she's a cold blooded killer.  In my mind, someone this evil wouldn't even consider a romance. (and the fact that your group is evil for having Valen in the party would make the PC evil as well.  If not you're just cheesing the game.)  The PC being evil would NOT trust Valen at the end of a leash let alone in a romance.  Redemption... Why?  Part of what makes Valen so interesting is the FACT she is so evil.  (and yes, I know this has been debated over long and hard, but... It's almost common sense factors at play here.  Not to mention I would rather see Valen have continued dialoge in TOB rather then nit picking the idea's of wether to romance/redeem her  :rolleyes: )  Just my opinion as always.
My PCs are usually TN or evil.  I don't enjoy playing goodie-goodies, I find my options too constrained.  I like that Valen ends up making her party behave more evilly ...  romancing a vampire, though, has a way of being unhealthy.

So please add her to Fate Spirit so I can stop CLUAing her in ;-)  Bu tI don't see a great need for a Valen romance.                    



[!--EDIT|Piker|Oct 30 2002, 02:33 AM--]

Offline jcompton

  • Niche Exploiter
  • Administrator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 7244
Valen romance
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2002, 07:23:29 PM »
Quote
I was waiting for some sort of consensus, but it looks like that will never happen.
                   If that's what you were waiting for, maybe it's not such a good idea anyway. Your better writing seems to be the stuff that you actively want to do for yourself (especially as you are a self-professed non-glory-hound/popularity seeker.) You were lukewarm at best on interjections for a long time and some (not all, but some) of them, in my opinion, reflect that fact.                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Spideyknight

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2002, 10:31:59 PM »
It appears I have some weird occurance with my registration.  I can post as a guest but not as a registered user, strange.

In anycase, I thought I would offer an idea for Valen's "Romance."

First, let's be serious, she is a vampire you aren't be "romanced" you're being "seduced."  So for Valen we should call it "Seduction" whether than romance.  But you're an evil PC right?  Murder whole villages, loot and plunder, hang men by their intestines while their dog watches, you do evil stuff, and you're not one to be "seduced" by anybody.  But just like any other Man(Man is just a generalization in this case, instead of saying he/she/man/women), you got to get it from somewhere.  Particularly evil? Yes, but Testosterone is your master, whether you wish to admit or not.

So what I propose is kind of a mixed bag, you can take the submissive role and let Valen "seduce" you and you play along, and their goes one path the "Romance" can take.

Or you can take the reins, show Valen "Who da Man is"  :D and make Valen your Concubine.  She had a Mistress, now you are her master.  She is of course still evil and will try and betray you on several occasions but that's all in the game, it adds a certain spice and mystery to life.  Makes things more interesting so to speak.

One can still argue that any kind of "bedplay" is unhealthy with a vampire, but that's a risk you take and don't care about you.  You're the PC, if Valen does try something stupid you're going to hang her ass out to dry until she regains her sense and promises to "play nice."  So you are evil but a sort of charming evil. I'm not sure if explaining this anymore will be worthwhile so I'll end now.

This idea was just to get around all the "Romancing a vampire isn't appropriate" hogwash.  You're evil, you don't give a damn about what's "appropriate" and what's not.  Most evil people have their own "morals" or way of life, but if a rule or taboo stands in their way it's broken.  Besides some evil characters are connosueirrs of rare finds, how many people can say that they have a Vampire as their concubine or "Romantic interest."  It'd surely be worth bragging about at the next "Evil people's cave of hellspawn gathering."     B)

PC:  "Very pretty wife you got their Tom."  "That terrified face she has while my sweet Valen sucks the blood from her body is classic."

Tom: "Sonuva..."

PC: "It seems Valen gets a second helping tonight."                    

Spideyknight

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2002, 10:34:41 PM »
Man, you just don't understand the importance of an edit button until you don't have one.  

I sincerely apologize for some of my grammatical mistakes above.  For instance it's supposed to be "Being seduced" not be.  guess I should have read over it before posting.                    

Dark Phantom

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2002, 12:12:06 AM »
I Play the spectram, but I would agree.  It would be quite fun to play the "romance" with a vampire.  Valen would be the best choice, but if anybody wanted I could add this as a Juna aspect.... (IE you do not devamp her, just resurect/remake her again).  I would have to play with some spell/files/etc, but it might give evil what they want.... Just a thought. If I did this, you would have to be harsh, but who else would romance a vamp?                    

Guest

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2002, 03:51:44 AM »
Quote
It would actually be interesting to see some sort of incorperation with her taking up someone else as her Master/Mistress, possibly Imoen considering she had her soul swapped around..

If you go that way, you could lean in on the "You wish further death by my hand, Mistress?"  and if you never met her "You... bare the scent of my dead Mistress.. I do not know you, or how you come by such, but I feel tied to you in some fashion.."

In my opinion it would be rather funny to see a cold blooded killer in the service of the happy-go-lucky Imoen.  I suppose if you tried to make Imoen redeem her, it would be a bit more realistic that way.
This would actually be interesting to add. I was partially expecting this when facing Bodhi for the last time in her lair. When confronting Bodhi with Imoen and Valen, I expected Valen to say something about her former mistress for the way she was dumped in spellhold.

Since she was always under the control of a more powerful being, it kind of make sense to have her switch her alligance to the PC after killing Bodhi. Lets face it, her vampire home is gone and she is alone. For her to survive, she must ally with others. The encounters with the hunters shown her that. Who better that the PC ? Well how about Imoen ? Valen may not like it but as the orginally poster said, the 'soul' and 'bhaal taint' may be powerful enough to draw Valen to obey Imy. Whether she likes it or not.

As for a romance, I say no. Maybe a one off seduction but nothing more than that. Those would want to romance Valen is not roleplaying their PC correctly.

I think this romance thing is getting how of hand, it seems almost every new NPC project gets asked, is there a romance ?                    

Dark Phantom

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2002, 04:28:48 AM »
um, guest, who is to say that they are playing there PC wrong?   That is the players choice!   The PC has to be forced through there story, obviously, just as a pen and paper one would be through there GM's campaingn.  HOWEVER, how they want to play is how they should play.  What do you mean not play THERE PC, given whatever charicter the player wants, wrong?if you dont' want it, that is one thing, but please do not try to say they can not.

I hardly have played Valen, so it is hard to say, but I did enjoy what I pleayed (Before it crashed on me GRRRRR.....)  The Imoen in control Idea is interesting, but the question would be....WOULD an evil party have Immy in there group?                    

Auvrin

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2002, 05:08:43 AM »
Let's mull this one over then.

PC: Gee Valen, you look... pale today.
Valen: Why thank you PC, you look rather... juicey
PC: Gosh that's great Valen, think you and I could have a romance?
Valen: Sure.. let's have a romance.. ::Valen then proceeds to drain the PC of every last drop::
PC:...That.... wasn't... what I ment... Valen... ::Dies::
Valen: Oops..
:End Romance:
:End Game:
:Gee.. Think you and I should reload?:

Sorry.. I just don't find that kind of romance that interesting.  :rolleyes:

Seriously though.. A vampire romance in most aspects is all around corny, more so when it's involving a cold blooded killer.   Sure, I can see a romance with a vampire very easy.. I, however, can't see one with Valen.. She is a murderer..  That's more importantly what makes her unique.  Redeeming her or even "De-vamping" her would kill so much of the work that's already been put into her...  In my opinion.. I wouldn't have spent the time making her script, abilities, claws, armor, and all that evil candy, JUST to take it away and throw it in a trash can, because some paladin wants her body warm while aiming to get into her pants.  :rolleyes:
Being perfectly honest... I would say someone else needs to make a romance with a vampire.. and Valen should continue to bath in the blood of the innocent.  

As always.. My opinions only.

Quote
WOULD an evil party have Immy in there group?

Yes.  By the end of the game my reputation is normaly close to nothing, and all evil characters, except Immy.  She complains, but she sticks in there with me.  Makes for a better story keeping them together.                    



[!--EDIT|Auvrin|Oct 30 2002, 01:11 PM--]

Se|ect

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2002, 06:39:56 AM »
valen should get raped by the PC.. yea.. uhuh.. it would be interesting..                    

Diana

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2002, 07:12:28 AM »
If you all want a giggle you should check out Valen's dialog with Salvanas in the Copper Coronet.  I think Wes did a great job with her rejoinder when Salvanas tried to pick her up.                    

Guest

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2002, 07:36:51 AM »
Quote
um, guest, who is to say that they are playing there PC wrong?   That is the players choice!   The PC has to be forced through there story, obviously, just as a pen and paper one would be through there GM's campaingn.  HOWEVER, how they want to play is how they should play.  What do you mean not play THERE PC, given whatever charicter the player wants, wrong?if you dont' want it, that is one thing, but please do not try to say they can not.

I hardly have played Valen, so it is hard to say, but I did enjoy what I pleayed (Before it crashed on me GRRRRR.....)  The Imoen in control Idea is interesting, but the question would be....WOULD an evil party have Immy in there group?
                   Dark Phantom, I said role playing, which I think is valid.

Take even for having Valen for example, if I remember correctly, you HAVE to side with Bodhi, you CANNOT have Aerie and Keldorn in your party. This is force upon the player simply because of Valen's characteristic.

There is two ways to play BG, play as yourself or play as your character. A number of people is playing as the first, not the second. They want to have everything.

For example, I want CF, I am good alignment. Yet I have no problem in entering a building, which I have no reason to. Murder everyone with the sole aim of picking up the CF from a dead body. Should I still be good alignment ? What would Keldorn think of this ?

BG2 is not pnp, so there is a limit of what can be done or not. That doesn't mean the designer should ignore the rules of roleplaying. If that is the case, why have the rules in the first place ?

As you quite pointed out, why would an evil party have Imoen in the first place. The same could be applied to the romance, why would an evil PC consider a romance, let alone a redemption ?

The idea that a goody PC takes her on board with the aim of removing her vampirism doesn't fit. There must be something in Valen that would make the PC consider initially when meeting her. There is none. The PC knows nothing about her before joining. And in the course of the game, her actions definately indicate she does not qualify for redemption.

If I remember correctly, there was a similar debate on your creation, Junas. A number of people wanted to take her into the party with the aim of removing her from slavery. In the end, you said anyone who wants to have Junas must also take the rep hit for being a slave owner.                    

Ziad

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2002, 08:35:07 AM »
Wow, I never dreamed my little question would spark so much interest...
When I said "romance", I didn't mean it in the "Aerie romance" sense. I thought the concept of Valen as an NPC was very interesting, but would be even more so with more interaction with the PC. So a "romance" wouldn't necessarily be a redemption. Seduction would work great. Why not have Valen seduce the PC. Even better, why not have the PC seduce Valen? Why not both? They are after all both evil, so it could make sense to have them both trying to seduce each other. If "love" cannot exist between them, then why not "lust"?
Just my 2 cents. My question was just a question, not a request. Valen is great with or without a romance/seduction/whatever. Great work Wes!                    

Spideyknight

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2002, 02:57:15 PM »
Very well let's talk a little about RP'ing.  But first let's get one thing straight, you can't say someone isn't Rp'ing correctly because there are SO MANY different personalities in both good and evil characters that Rp'ing could be anything.  Everyone is different, so a person that murders everyone in a stronghold, after the hosts threaten him is still rp'ing his good character.  That character has just had a bad day(what with his childhood friend being captured by a madman and powerful mages) and someone threatening him was the last frickin straw.

There you have it RP'ing.  The beauty of Rp'ing is you must take it in context, which is something a lot of people just don't understand.  There are thousands of ways for an evil PC to RP a romance with Valen, heck I just gave you a comical dialogue of one way, and I could list a thousand more.

My point is you must understand the full scope of RP'ing before you say someone is Rp'ing their role wrong.  A scope that, judging from your writing, you haven't got the foggiest idea about.

As long as I can back up what I'm saying, my Rp'ing is valid.  Your assertion that "Romancancing" (or as i prefer to call it "Seducing") Valen is against Rp'ing is idiotic and narrow-minded.  The PC is evil, he wants someone evil at his side, what better than a vampire under his control?  I don't give a crap about where she gets her blood from, as long as it's not me, and with all the fights the PC gets in Valen would be well-fed.  She wouldn't need to "feed" on me, and should she betray her master she's done for and she knows it.

Being evil is more than killing everyone you meet.  Being evil takes more skill than being good.  Rp'ing is a complex subject matter and one could write volumes explaining it.  Suffice it to say the you can RP on any end of the spectrum you wish.

Now let's talk creatively.  Since it's a bit more interesting.

Seduction, a beautiful word is it not?  The PC being seduced by Valen or the PC seducing Valen, either way could make for some classic dialogue.  Some of you just lack vision.  Who cares if it's not "appropriate"?  You're evil for christsakes, you don't give a damn about Keldorn or Aerie, and to the nine hells with rules and taboos.  Do you care?  Then you're not evil.  People who bring up this not appropriate crap don't understand what it is to be evil, but still be intelligent.  

Let us briefly talk of Juna though, the vampiric part could be interesting but don't you think after awhile Juna would get tired of your consistent mistreatment of her?  She is a vampire now and by all rights a force to be reckoned with.  To much mistreatment and you could find yourself on the opposite end of some very sharp fangs.

The thing is you should be trying to do something different.  Add in an unexpected twist.  Otherwise what makes you mod any different than all the other mods out there.  You have a different person?  Big whoop, some people like surprise, intrigue, development.  Like a good book, hook the user in the beginning and take him/her for a ride.  If you believe this is a good hook for Juna then by all means my friend, have at it.  I was just thinking of something for Valen here.  

She seems to be missing something.  That flare that makes her an absolute must-have mod.                    



[!--EDIT|Spideyknight|Oct 30 2002, 10:58 PM--]

Dark Phantom

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2002, 03:12:26 PM »
Let us briefly talk of Juna though, the vampiric part could be interesting but don't you think after awhile Juna would get tired of your consistent mistreatment of her? She is a vampire now and by all rights a force to be reckoned with. To much mistreatment and you could find yourself on the opposite end of some very sharp fangs.


Well, she would at that point no more be able to disobey you than valen was bhodi.  I am liking this idea.... and even adding more to it.   You probably would not be too abusive to her at that point, as (s)he allready has her obediance, and at that time Juna, even the human form, would be as evil as the PC (Had no one but herself to turn to or trust, self centerd.  By ADND standerds, that is evil.)

This discussion moved to the actual discussion, Link in my sig.                    



[!--EDIT|Dark Phantom|Oct 31 2002, 12:19 AM--]

Kish

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2002, 03:46:45 PM »
Quote
But first let's get one thing straight, you can't say someone isn't Rp'ing correctly because there are SO MANY different personalities in both good and evil characters that Rp'ing could be anything. Everyone is different, so a person that murders everyone in a stronghold, after the hosts threaten him is still rp'ing his good character. That character has just had a bad day(what with his childhood friend being captured by a madman and powerful mages) and someone threatening him was the last frickin straw.
And therefore the character became evil.

Claiming that it can be compatible with "good" to murder people for demanding you leave their home after you walked in without invitation serves to render the concept of "good" meaningless.  If you would rather people didn't protest "that's not roleplaying" to actions like that, then I apologize in advance--I will continue making such blatantly obvious observations with as little guilt as I note that the sun rises in the east.

However, I do agree that it is overly limiting to presume that no evil character could be interested in any form of romance, ever.                    

Dark Phantom

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2002, 04:18:21 PM »
And what GOOD charicter would take Valen?  Or side with Bhodi, for that matter?  The only non evil who WOULD even join Bhodi is a LN (NOT about to work for the worlds greatist criminal orginization!)                    

Auvrin

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2002, 06:38:48 PM »
Quote
NOT about to work for the worlds greatist criminal orginization!)

*coughs*Shadow Thieves*coughs*

It's also occoured to me that no one bothers to read completely, so this is my final thought in the matter, considering it will be skimmed over anyhow.  VALEN, is a cold blooded murder.  VALEN, doesn't HAVE to think about love or romance, not everyone does.  If you were to assume that everything will have a romance somewhere, you couldn't be more wrong.  There are ALOT of people out there in the world that would rather avoid having a solid relationship all together, and no most of the one's I'm speaking of are female.  I don't see the need for a romance with Valen at all.  She is a great character, and I've said it befor, and I'll say it again.  Don't fix what isn't broken.   All of you would rather trash up a good mod just so you can get into a vampires pants, rather then see the character continued with great dialoge in TOB.  Befor you even bother saying you want BOTH, go out and make your own vampire romance.  I would personaly download it as long as it's well written.  I just don't see a romantic interest needed in the Valen mod.                    

Spideyknight

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2002, 06:47:27 PM »
One action does not make your alignment shift so dramatically.  To go from good to evil alignment you would have to do something extraordinary.  

Besides you are limiting your thought processes again.  Here is another take on how a good PC might go through the events.

The person in the stronghold could have worded his greeting better.    My reasoning when playing a good pc was that the place "Looked suspicious" (especially from the hosts "greeting")so I decided to investigate, because if they were indeed evil people me and Minsc had some "RIGHTEOUS BUTT-KICKING FOR GOODNESS" to attend to.  Turns out I got attacked while investigating and had to defend myself.  Just like any good-natured person would do.  I was attacked by beings from other planes and figured what I suspected was correct.  So I went to extract some answers and got attacked.  Me and Minsc kicked them all right in the EVIL, and walked away content we had probably stopped them from doing any evil acts anyway.

Many different ways to RP, limiting yourself to one, nay limiting yourself at all is due to your own lack of creativity.  That's what Rp'ing is all about...how do you think?  Do you use your imagination?  Are you creative?                    

Mael

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2002, 07:35:06 PM »
Quote
All of you would rather trash up a good mod just so you can get into a vampires pants, rather then see the character continued with great dialoge in TOB.  Befor you even bother saying you want BOTH, go out and make your own vampire romance.  I would personaly download it as long as it's well written.  I just don't see a romantic interest needed in the Valen mod.
                   You think it would be trashing it. Maybe other people would actually enjoy a well written Vampire romance? Rather then just "getting into a Vampire's pants."

And seeing as how Weimer has left it open to debate, obviosuly he is considering it. So until he decides that a romance is not that way he wants to go, obviously people are going to talk about it and won't consider their ideas to be "trashing" Valen.

My 3 cents.


                   

Dark Phantom

  • Guest
Valen romance
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2002, 08:29:04 PM »
again, I might make it possible with MY NPC, Juna, to make her a vamp (Good for the story line, I like to think it is well written, not just sex....) Again, see the discuassion at the link bellow, even add to it!  Of course, Wes is far better, and Valen might be far more fun, but it would be "The best of both worlds", or the best compromise.                    

 

With Quick-Reply you can write a post when viewing a topic without loading a new page. You can still use bulletin board code and smileys as you would in a normal post.

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What color is grass?:
What is the seventh word in this sentence?:
What is five minus two (use the full word)?: