Author Topic: My best imitation of Peter Scolari  (Read 2440 times)

Althernai

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« on: October 11, 2002, 07:42:53 PM »
[Imitation]
]]* Smarter Mages: Liches are now *much* harder to kill with
]]   pro-undead scrolls. Or to run away from in general!

"*much* harder" to run away from? Try impossible. The second you so much as make a sound near them, they dispel all of your protections and teleport your entire party into the path of several Horrid Wiltings or Incendiary Clouds. Meaning, everything without permanent protection or tons of HP dies on the spot. No way can you run away from them unless you can make an area change in [ 3 seconds.

]]* Tactical Encounters: all "useless" Undead (e.g., not vampires,
]]   not liches) now have weak Undead-ish powers (e.g., blindness,
]]   horror, doom).

WEAK UNDEAD-ISH POWERS!!!??? You call Feeblemind, Unholy Word, Wail of the Banshee, Black Blade of Disaster all enhanced by multiple Dooms and a Greater Malison WEAK UNDEAD-ISH POWERS??? If 9th level spells are weak undeadish powers, then what is a strong one? Instakill?[/Imitation]

Hmm... I can't seem to make myself sound like him. But I think you get the idea - I've added the Umar Hills to "Quests I am now going to do after the Underdark."                    

Kish

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2002, 07:52:54 PM »
It occurs to me that as long as Wes resists toughening Spellhold, his mods could gently encourage people to get Imoen back quickly.  Heh heh heh.

("We have to get to Imoen right away!"

"Why so urgent, CharName?"

"BECAUSE SHE'S IN THE ONLY NOT INSTANTLY LETHAL PLACE IN AMN!")                    



[!--EDIT|Kish|Oct 24 2002, 10:59 PM--]

Althernai

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2002, 08:49:55 PM »
Quote
It occurs to me that as long as Wes resists toughening Spellhold, his mods could gently encourage people to get Imoen back quickly.  Heh heh heh.
                   But don't you see, this does toughen Spellhold - the 'ubiquitous lich' is already more powerful than any spellcaster in the unmodded game - and there is one in the Asylum. Not only that, but he is surrounded by Greater Mummies and Skeleton Warriors - the exact set up as the Umar Hills.                    

Assassin

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2002, 08:59:12 PM »
Actually, that's not entirely true.  The 'undead' groups in Umar Hills and Spellhold both use either Bone Fiends, or Liches. You could get lucky... For my first time through, both of the places I got Bone Fiends, every single time, so I was luck  "what the heck?" when people reported fighting a Lich in Spellhold                    

Althernai

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2002, 09:20:05 PM »
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Actually, that's not entirely true.  The 'undead' groups in Umar Hills and Spellhold both use either Bone Fiends, or Liches. You could get lucky... For my first time through, both of the places I got Bone Fiends, every single time, so I was luck  "what the heck?" when people reported fighting a Lich in Spellhold
                   Mwahaha! He took care of that too! With tactical encounters installed, you always get the most powerful encounter possible.                    

Aubrey

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2002, 01:14:30 AM »
Okay, I've been a bit confused here; because, with or without tactical encounters installed, I have always fought a Lich in the Spellhold...


                   

Althernai

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2002, 10:23:41 AM »
Quote
Okay, I've been a bit confused here; because, with or without tactical encounters installed, I have always fought a Lich in the Spellhold...
                   In the unmodded game, what you fight is dependent on what level you are when you come to the encounter. If you were always high level before going to Spellhold, you'd always fight a lich. With tactical encounters, even if you are at level 9 (which is quite possible - I've had this before), you still face a lich.

This wasn't that much of a big deal before because you can lure out the Greater Mummies and Skeleton Warriors and then face the lonely lich feeding him summons as necessary. Now, if he ever sees you and then doesn't see you anymore, it's all over - he will bring your entire party to surround him and dispel all their buffs. Even if the lich is not instanly lethal, the Greater Mummies and Skeleton Warriors will crush you - Greater Malison + Wail of the Banshee against 9th level characters... (no buffs mind you - he dispelled them all). The Skeleton Warriors also use Feeblemind, which (with GM) amounts to a save vs. spell at -6 -- even my level 14 paladin occasionally failed it. They still hit as hard as they did before and give you disease.                    

Offline jcompton

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2002, 11:05:53 AM »
BTW, I love the subject. :)                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline weimer

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2002, 03:44:09 PM »
OK, I guess this deserves some commentary.

My first impression is that these changes appeared a few versions ago ... but I'm just hearing comments now.  Were most other people bothered but silent? Or did most other people just not notice?

My personal impression (yes, I do playtest these things before foisting them on the unsuspecting Sola world) was that they made things slightly more difficult, but not really. Greater Mummies are 14 hit dice creatures --  that's decided more than an 8 hit dice Illithid. But GM's are  notoriously weak (XP on the hoof, as someone once said, expect for the weapon enchantment requirement). This was supposed to make them a little more dangeous. If all else fails, run away. It's not like they move all that fast. :-)

All of the "normal" non-Lich undead are still easily slain by pro-undead scrolls.

Now, as for the Liches: the "improved mages" code (many, many moons ago) tried to do something similar by having liches notice if you were attacking them from a pro-undead shield. They would cast remove magic on themselves in such a situation, hoping to get you. The problem was that the range of RM is too small, and you could be sitting at the end of the screen throwing axes at them or something. Hence the Uber Teleport Field. By an interesting quirk of Infinity Engine stupidity, it is entirely possible that nothing you put on your characters will block this spell, since it technically targets the mage. Certainly SI:* is unlikely to work. The Ritual Boots will still prevent your buffs from being dispelled, as will being a higher-level caster than the lich (which is, admittedly, unlikely).

Anyway, they should only do that move if they are already paranoid and there are no enemies present at all. If you never attack the lich or cast a spell at it, you should be able to run away (let me know if that doesn't happen). In addition, you should be able to sacrifice summoned cratures -- no "come back my pretties" while anything green is visible to the lich.

Now, I'm curious as to what others think. Has everyone been silently rubbing bruises from an undead smackdown? Or has this not really been a big deal?                    

Althernai

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2002, 06:15:34 PM »
Quote
My first impression is that these changes appeared a few versions ago ... but I'm just hearing comments now.

I haven't been playing much lately. Maybe everyone else has a superior strategy for dealing with them? If so, please share. :)

Quote
But GM's are notoriously weak (XP on the hoof, as someone once said, expect for the weapon enchantment requirement). This was supposed to make them a little more dangeous. If all else fails, run away. It's not like they move all that fast.

First, I don't think of GMs as weak - they save vs. MoD +2, they take half damage from your weapons (I think), they hit for ~25 damage per blow  and they give you a disease that costs ~30 HP per two rounds. Running away use to work, yes - except now you can't do it if they are near a lich (see below).

Quote
Anyway, they should only do that move if they are already paranoid and there are no enemies present at all. If you never attack the lich or cast a spell at it, you should be able to run away (let me know if that doesn't happen).

Run away? Not a chance! Here is what happens in the Umar Hill - Temple Ruins. The lich is next to the Amaunator Chessboard Floor. My party is a little bit down from the place Amauna and her ghosts show up, but not in the corridor yet. I have Jaheira cast Cure Wounds on my paladin - the lich says "I've heard enough! Show yourself so I can destroy you!" and does his teleport thing - instantly killing everyone except my paladin and Minsc because of his Chain Contingency: 2x Horrid Wilting. I never even came near enough to see him. This happened twice - after which I went elsewhere to cast healing spells.

So, my next idea is to lure out the GMs and Skeleton Warriors and then deal with the lich alone - but the second you even see him and then step out of his sight (which you have to to lure the undead out), he does the teleport field and you are right in the middle of the Undead Legion - needless to say, my party didn't last very long.

The only way you can possibly beat him is if he does something stupid - e.g. Chain Contingency: 2x Incendiary Cloud. The lich is immune (it still disrupts his spells though), but the GMs and Skeleton Warriors (their MR doesn't help) all die pretty quickly.

Of course, when I came back with the Carsomyr and Cloak of Mirroring, the lich did not stand that much of a chance (the standard 'charge in and hack at everything strategy' still didn't work - they somehow managed to Feeblemind him twice).                    

Althernai

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2002, 10:53:21 PM »
Eh... one more thing - I was fighting the lich in the Bridge district (house next to the Twisted Rune) and I decided to only use the Paladin. When the lich did his teleport field, the paladin was brought to him and I thought that the the rest of them were unaffected because they were outside. However, when I killed the lich and left, I realized my entire party (that was outside) except the paladin had teleported to the balcony of the house of Anomen's enemy - it would have been extremely annoying, because to get off the balcony, you need to make a party required transition and the paladin was still in the lich area. Fortunately, when I ran as close to the wall as possible, the door to go back into the house took the entire party back in. Can you make it so that it doesn't do that - who knows where they will get stuck next?                    

Aubrey

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My best imitation of Peter Scolari
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2002, 01:35:50 AM »
There has been some time since I last played the game (a couple of months ago), but I honestly don't remember the Spellhold Litch to teleport where my party stands. I usually lure Greater Mummies and Skeleton Warrior out by a bow or a couple of fireballs. And the same applies to the Lich & Co in Temple Ruins.

As for the annoyance, I would say that these are not *that* difficult in comparison to Eclipse party, for example. Even the Kangaxx Liches in Bridge District were manageable, luring them out of the building one by one (my party standing at the top of the stairs) and taking advantage of fog of war and using Invisibility portions for locating their exact position and being sure that no innocent people were around. Of course, if these battles are given after Underdark, one is quite powerful at the time.

But Eclipse party was quite annoying and my frustration had been endless. Till I decided to unistall the component. Heh heh!

                   

 

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