Author Topic: BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)  (Read 11679 times)

L_Jonté

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2002, 10:15:44 AM »
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There. Save $100. Don't say I never did nothing nice for you.

I would never ever say such a thing.  First, it would be untrue.  Second, it would be really stupid on my part if I want your help with my mod.  :P

Thank you Jason!   :D                    

Domi

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2002, 08:59:31 PM »
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Hehe...Domi  That very same thing happened to me last night.  Just my PC and Anomen were left standing after the Bodhi/Solaufein battle.  After being slaughtered by Solaufein repeatedly (not to mention the gloating beforehand)  I too was *so* tempted just to leave him rot there in Bodhi's lair.  

Kismet

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                    At least someone who understands the ache of my heart! I could not rightly justify WHY would my PC want to ressurect Solaufein after that incident, by the cost of hundreds of elves being slaughtered back in Sundessellar, while we are walking country side with  the corpse...

I understand why would PC ressurect Anomen or Kelsey who went with her through thick and thin and where close to her in mind and body...

But she has to be wether enormously stupid to ressurect a power crazy murderous maniac Solaufein turned out to be, or to be enormously wise to see that this aquantenance of few hours is NOT the power crazy etc, etc, etc, he is just....what? confused? This hour he spent with Bodhi, while PC was frantically fighting her way to him, dear boy, changed him so deeply,  entirely and profoundly?

All other NPCs acts "dominated"... Solaufein greatly enjoys himself... Brr....                    

Althernai

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2002, 11:20:30 PM »
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All other NPCs acts "dominated"... Solaufein greatly enjoys himself... Brr....
                   I loved that part - the other NPCs just stand there and let themselves be killed - Sola is actually as nasty as Bodhi in that fight (maybe even nastier).  Bodhi alone rates a 6 on my difficulty scale (where 10 is Ascension). Bodhi + Solafein is around an 8. And not only that, but he tells you all he thinks of you - I was wondering what excuse he would give once I brought him back to life.                    

FlatulentOne

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2002, 01:51:18 AM »
Hmm...haven't quite gotten into Sola's romance yet, but it has to be better than the others available...next time Aerie says ANYTHING about being better off dead, I swear I will help her along the way. Who told the Bioware people that men liked completely co-dependent women like that? Ugh. And Viconia...yech. Jaheria just gives me the creeps. Whenever she starts her romance lines, I find myself expecting her to say, "Call me Mommy, I will spank you now!" Gross.  Anomen is just too insufferable to bother with, I find myself more interested in the color of his intestines than in trying to "make a better person" out of him.
I tried all the available romances just to try to get the full experiance offered by this game, and found myself having more fun soloing at times. I hope that some future RPG will make a better attemp at this. The romance idea has the potential to become a very game-enriching experiance.                    

Domi

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2002, 07:29:29 AM »
My point is NOT that Sola romance is bad/badly done/ uninteresting... The point is that it is discouraging to START after the "treachery with gusto" thing.

It is rather strange that the magic resistant drow is so dominated/coverted/reformed that he discard his main values such as Ellistrae and his decency in these fateful 2 hours spent with Bodhi...

As an appology he offeres you an insight in how greatly he enjoyed the power he was given and sort of hints that he'd topple Bodhi if you did not interfere...

There is NO incentive offered by the mod for PC to raise him and continue the romance except for the Player Behind the Screen desire to see what will happen next.

Can he at least say something like"oh, I was such an idiot and sooo dominated... Thank you for releasing me from this terrible terrible state.... " before dieing? Then at least you are clued in on his good nature.

                   

L_Jonté

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2002, 10:05:54 AM »
I dunno, I think it's more unbelievable that the other NPC's don't cut loose with the personal evil as vampires, than the other way around.  It's not like these characters don't have their dark sides after all and being turned into a vampire would certainly bring that out in a person.    ^_^

As for needing a reason to bring Solaufein (or any character) back after the battle, the reason is simple; It's the right thing to do.  

He entered into your group and under your command in good faith.  You owe him.  He did not choose to become a vampire it was done to him.  He is not responsible for his actions as a vampire.  Not to mention the fact that the PC has the unfortunate tendancy to become the slayer and rampage after her/his own party.  That's a mighty big glass house s/he lives in.  So unless your PC is evil, I can't think of a reason not to bring Sola (or any other NPC) back.                    



[!--EDIT|L_Jonté|Oct 18 2002, 04:58 AM--]

Domi

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2002, 07:11:19 PM »
Solaufein sought death of his previous lover (yes, he knew very well that fake eggs will sent Phaere to Nine Hells, since he knows that fake eggs would sent Matron *** to Nine Hells). Now he is searching PC's. A disturbing pattern emerges. Where is the guarantee that he is not going to restart where he left off after he is raised? Neutral PC, taking care of herself first and foremost would not see it fit to exchange 1 life of a person who is probably a maniac for lives of hundreds elves.

It's a romantic mod. In every tale the lovers do impossible things. Breaking from under the domination spell despite all odds because of love would be...well, pleasing.

But then again, POV is POV.

Anyway, I prefer a romantic mod to start with a good-hearted complement as Kelsey, than from attempted murder.                    

L_Jonté

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2002, 08:24:05 PM »
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Anyway, I prefer a romantic mod to start with a good-hearted complement as Kelsey, than from attempted murder.

To each her own then. :)                    

cirerrek

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2002, 08:28:34 PM »
Generally speaking, Bodhi perhaps being an excpetion (but of course, she and Joneleth are a thing apart), one of the most horrible things that can happen to an elf is to be turned into an Undead, to be denied Arvanaith.  To have green and growing things wither at their touch.

How much this would affect a dark elf, I don't know.  They are raised in a culture where power is everything and harmony is nothing.  

Take Anne Rice's   Interview with a Vampire as an example.  Lewis is a basically good person newly raised as vampire and he finds it very difficult to cope.  Lestat on the other hand has been a vampire for a fairly long time and he is quite aware of the powers that it grants and takes full advantage of them, although his noble roots do affect his decisions and actions.

Vampires ala D&D are generally Chaotic Evil, I believe.  Are they that way simply because they are vampires or are they corrupted an inch at time by the hunger and pursuit of their one need, their one pleasure, blood?  The inch by inch line of reasoning suggests that a good and noble person who becomes a vampire not of their own free will would struggle daily with their new desires, whatever the compulsions within them.  The burning hunger, instantly evil line of reasoning would suggest swift acceptance of the dogma prosyletized by their sanguine deity.  Instant zealots if you will, with a holy desire to placate the compulsions placed on them, no matter the requisite atrocity.  

Take into account that Solaufein is already Chaotic albeit Good.  The plunge might not be all that far, especially after being raised in a society stepled in the necessities of being foremost or scrabbling for the scraps at the foot of the table.

Just some thoughts to add to the discussion.

Thanks,
Cirerrek                    



[!--EDIT|cirerrek|Oct 18 2002, 06:28 AM--]

Kish

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2002, 08:40:27 PM »
According to the same source that indicates green and growing things wither at the touch of elven vampires...drow vampires move in pretty much the opposite direction from surface elven vampires (very powerful, nearly impossible to Turn, well-respected and envied among drow society...and extremely vulnerable to sunlight).  Otoh, other parts of that source (the Ravenloft Monstrous Compendiums) are obviously not being used (neither Bodhi nor the Aerie-vampire requires sunlight to function, for example, and both drain levels, not Charisma).                    

Domi

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2002, 09:11:33 PM »
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1) The inch by inch line of reasoning suggests that a good and noble person who becomes a vampire not of their own free will would struggle daily with their new desires, whatever the compulsions within them.  

2) The burning hunger, instantly evil line of reasoning would suggest swift acceptance of the dogma prosyletized by their sanguine deity.  Instant zealots if you will, with a holy desire to placate the compulsions placed on them, no matter the requisite atrocity.  

3) Take into account that Solaufein is already Chaotic albeit Good.  The plunge might not be all that far, especially after being raised in a society stepled in the necessities of being foremost or scrabbling for the scraps at the foot of the table.

Just some thoughts to add to the discussion.

Thanks,
Cirerrek
                   1)-2) I find option 1 more belivable... Instant evilness just do not strike me as possible.  Or at least I like it more... Remember Zaknafein? Zin-carla is a transformation no less powerful than vampirism; yet he manages to overcome the domination.

Solaufein was grown into this society but he had come to hate the ways of the drow. That sort of convictions are the most powerful of all convictions. Those which are born against all odds. Those which a reared unseen for years...

3) There is a great difference between CG and CE...  It's the difference between Robin Hood and Jack the Ripper.                    

cirerrek

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2002, 12:27:12 AM »
I believe it was either a Forgotten Realms novel or a Ravenloft novel about a surface elf (I believe his name started with a J), that was turned into a vampire.  This referenced the part about growing things withering at the touch of a vampiric elf.  I never really got into Ravenloft, other than playing, the SSI Ravenloft RPG, where if I remember correctly Drizzt showed up as a joinable NPC.  I always found the Ravenloft setting too creepy, less so than the Call of Cthulu rolepalying game, but creepy nonetheless.  I'm not afraid of the dark, just what might be in it  :(

I like option 1 better myself.  Instant is evil hard to fathom.  But then we (based on input from our limited senses and societal paradigms) don't live in a world were magic is the rule and demons and devils are but a plane away.

One of my favorite villians (those guys you love to hate) is Baron Vladimir Harkonnen of Dune fame.  Greedy, corpulent, conniving, devious, amoral, and ruthless.  His physical grossness and personal habits in my mind showed the world the evil behind his feingned facade of being a gentlemen with a legitimate vendetta.  Then Kevin J. Anderson and Frank Herbert's son explained his physical appearance as being caused by something outside his control, which for me reduced some of the evil I felt him to represent.  I liked him better as a villian when it appeared that he was disgusting because it suited him (Choosing to be evil) to be that way rather then when it was forced on him (Instant Evil).

I imagine being cast dominated and humilitated for years can lead to quite a bit of pent up rage.  I wouldn't expect it dissipate over a shared sunrise.  

Jack the Ripper was most likely insane.  I know some of the D&D references having mentioned Chaotic Neutral as the aligment most often associated with insane people.  But it never really states that everyone who is Chaotic Neutral is insane.   Definitions for insanity definitely have their their fundamental basis in societal values.  In that regard, I would consider a vampire insane and thus find it plausible that they would be capable of instant evil, well, what I consider evil, meaning attacking me for my bodily fluids.

Still, no one wants to see the hero succumb to evil especially after seeminly walking from having a life time of it inflicted upon them.  Best to keep in mind that, some of the greatest heroes have been the greatest butchers, it all depends on if you were on the heroes side or the butchered side.  

After restoring Solaufein from his vampiric power trip.  It really does beg the question, "Were you on the heroes side or the butchered side?"  Continuing a romance with Solaufein most likely depends on your personal answer to that question.  

Cirerrek

 

                           

Kish

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2002, 12:45:41 AM »
The novel is Vampire of the Mists (I'm quite fond of it), about Jander Sunstar.  He has a Ravenloft writeup, which explains the discrepencies between him and the Monstrous Compendium elven vampire by making him an elven nosferatu.  But he's still a different species from Bodhi/Aerie--he drains Constitution, not levels--and certainly different from Solaufein, because drow undead-anything are defined as a different species from elven undead-anything.

There is a tremendous difference between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil, and Solaufein seems less likely to fall into evil for having already weathered a life in vicious drow culture while retaining his moral sense (especially, as much of a moral sense as Wes gives him).  However...Wes' decision is that Solaufein's rarified sense of ethics goes Bang when Bodhi bites him.  I doubt he's willing to remove his dialogue or his poetry, and I'm pretty sure he's not willing to turn Solaufein into a drone like the others and lose his tactical challenge.  So it's all academic.                    

Althernai

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2002, 01:25:11 AM »
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There is a tremendous difference between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil, and Solaufein seems less likely to fall into evil for having already weathered a life in vicious drow culture while retaining his moral sense (especially, as much of a moral sense as Wes gives him).  However...Wes' decision is that Solaufein's rarified sense of ethics goes Bang when Bodhi bites him.
                   I don't know, I found the change to evil pretty convincing. Unlike some of his other stats, Solafein's wisdom is just above average - and on top of that, he constantly seems to doubt everything. He doubts whether our battle tactics are fair, he doubts whether it is ethical to summon monsters - in short, he is constantly unsure whether he is doing what is right.  As much as I dislike the Paladin-Harmonium attitude of "I am sure of what is right and I will stick to it no matter what," it does make it harder to force somebody to do something against his beliefs (you could trick him though...). Solafein's willpower is not very strong and Bodhi takes advantage of that (with Lolth's help, no less).                    

Aubrey

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2002, 02:21:15 AM »
Right from the start, Solaufein struck me as a very strong-willed character. His constant doubt about one issue or another hasn't, yet, convinced me  that what he is really looking for is PC's guidance. Solaufein could had done most of those philosophical dialogues-questions with himself, like debating himself. In that sense, it seems more like a pretext for the realisation of a personal quest and the reward to follow.

Having in mind his strong will, which helped him to survive and maintain --with his goddess help-- that bright part of his soul while living in Ust Natha, it seems a bit strange that Bodhi is the one and only creature able to achieve that kind of transformation in him.                      

FlatulentOne

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2002, 02:26:23 AM »
Oh, lord, Ravenloft. A graveyard of scrapped character sheets for me. Blah. Now, what I'd like to see is someone who is almost Aerie's opposite. A strong-willed romance, completely spontaneous, and as unpredictable as scripting will allow. Even better, how about one who can tell the differance between a male and female? I don't know what is possible, and know less than nothing about any kind of programming, but I do know what I like.                    

L_Jonté

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2002, 07:21:13 AM »
Ok, I can see how some of you would have a problem with the idea of instantly evil.  (Funny, Instantly Evil sounds like a Ravenloft convenience food.   :P )

Aaaanywaaay...  Does the strength of the sire make a difference?  I don't see Bhodi as a regular vampire, and I doubt that any regualr vampire could have affected such a transformation in Solaufein.  Also, keep in mind that Sola's alignment is not fixed in the early part of his travels with the PC.  He could go either way depending on how the world and his new leader are presented to him.  Maybe that has something to do with his vampiric nature.  Heh, loathe as I am to admit it, this conversation keeps making me think of the the whole Angel/Angeles (see Buffy the Vampire Slayer) transformation.  That was pretty instant too.  All it took was losing his soul.  (I know, I know, that has nothing to do with the AD&D universe.)

Hey, what if he had been made a drider?  Wouldn't we expect some fairly instant evil there?   Or is that a long drawn-out process?    :huh:                    

Domi

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2002, 07:27:58 AM »
I have to thank you for that insightful discussion guys, it gave me a bust to write a sequence for the male romance mod, when the male breaks away from Bodhi control etc...etc...etc... I actually like it. It has good/evil solution after battle and depends heavily on the PC's attitude towards the character.                    

Kiki

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2002, 12:56:14 AM »
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Just for you, Kiki, I have added in a "shut-up-and-kiss-me" branch to the black raven dialogue.
You are too good to me, Wes. :)


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This led to one choice, though the guy was an arrogant, vain fool. I believe Bioware misjudged in this respect, believing women would enjoy persevering, making him into a "better man".
I'm sure some women do enjoy that sort of thing.
Plenty of women do seem to like taking on fixer-uppers (ugh), but that's not what interested me about the Anomen romance. I liked finding out more about the character; with a little patience, you discovered different layers and a decent and likable person beneath all the insecurity. I've had to work with several arrogant, annoying people, and as time goes by, they've turned out to be ... arrogant, annoying people. With Anomen, you actually get rewarded for being a kind, tolerant person, instead of just being stepped on.  See Silrana's stuff on the Attic for well-written and engaging stories from this perspective.


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Solaufein seems less likely to fall into evil for having already weathered a life in vicious drow culture while retaining his moral sense (especially, as much of a moral sense as Wes gives him).
Sola is an ambitious character--I think he would have to be, in order to rise through the ranks of the Male Fighters' Society. I can see how being turned into a vampire might tap into the dark side of ambition.                    

Domi

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BG2 romance essay (incl. Solaufein, Kelsey)
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2002, 10:48:23 PM »
Well, my POV always was that the raise in the drow society for chars like Solaufein or Zaknafein is a matter of survival and preservance of their own mind set, not true ambition. IMO, they both are capable of easily giving up accumulated power for ability to love and be loved (in both friendship and love sence). That's game's Solaufein though. I still did not gather enough resolve to restart my game after his ressurection talk.                    

 

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