throwing spears

[Artemidore]

In fact, I did not use the upgraded throwing spears when I was playing, but the item description said that they were two-handed type. OK, I'm clearly not an expert at throwing spears, but it seems to me that the athletes on TV use only one hand, don't they? And I remember other games, like Diablo 2, where you could use both throwing spears and a shield. So, how about making the upgraded spears one-handed, like a sling?                    

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Now that would be overpowered big time.  One of the things that throwing spears do now is to add an extra attack per round just like long bows.  Getting the extra attack AND being able to use a shield is overpowererd.

Without the extra attack it doesn't sound like too bad of an idea.                    

[reiella]

Well to think of it conceptually, just realize that the athletic spear throwers are using their arm importantly for balance as well.  It may not physically hold the spear, but it is still important that it be free for spear tossing.

Although I personally have more trouble with the use of spears in melee being two handed, but I mostly attribute that to their weight or some other silliness.                    

[weimer]

IE game bug prevents one-handed spears of any type: game crashes on failed animation. Sorry!

The bow rate-of-fire is to prevent them from being completely worthless compared to bows.                    

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Hey!  Crossbows don't add an extra attack & take two hands to wield, yet I don't see many folks calling them underpowered.  The item upgrade throwing spears give better equipped bonuses than any bows, have better enchantment bonuses than most arrows, never run out of ammo, & do good damage.  All in all with the extra attack they are superior to bows.  Without it they would be even.                    

[weimer]

Hey!  Crossbows don't add an extra attack & take two hands to wield, yet I don't see many folks calling them underpowered.  The item upgrade throwing spears give better equipped bonuses than any bows, have better enchantment bonuses than most arrows, never run out of ammo, & do good damage.  All in all with the extra attack they are superior to bows.  Without it they would be even.

                   I call crossbows severely underpowered. In real life, they completely demolish bows. In AD&D, they're often pathetic by comparison (and let's not even bring up the sling of seeking).

Better equipment bonuses? Only the Unicorn one gives equipped abilities, and that one specifically does not give the extra attack. By the way, the Mana Bow equipped ability is vastly non-trivial. Too bad the damage bonus is so low.

A +3 throwing spear from Item Upgrade is not significantly better in terms of enchantment than a +3 Quiver of Plenty from Item Upgrade. Neither run out of ammo.

Without the extra attack they would be strictly inferior to throwing axes. Throwing axes do the same damage (1d6) and would have the same rate of fire (1) but take one hand, so you can use a sheild. That's an incredible advantage. Think Shield of the Order, Harmony or Balduran here. Think about Rifthome, Dwarven Thrower or K'logarath here.

In order to make the spears not strictly inferior to other thrown weapons they do need some sort of help. Remember also that bows give extra flexibility: you can use normal missiles to get through pro-magic-weapons, you can use arrows of dispelling, you can use arrows of detonation (yes, you can get all of this in BG2), you can do elemental damage to kill trolls. Throwing Spears get none of that.                    

[KaPe]

I tried the Throwing Impaler... with a Ken-sai... It does around 35 + 10 damage... with imp. haste thats 8-9 attacks ... Seems to me that ken-sai&strength bonuses work on t.spears, and that's way overpowered... I mean, just how much damage can you do with x-bow? (serious question, i don't play archers)                    

[reiella]

Unlimited ammo 'throwers' profit alot more than the Returning Weapons.  The damage stuff from actually using ammunition and the auto-ammo aspect stack.  Firetooth is probably the best for looking at that consideration.

K'golarth gets similiar damage output to the Impaler (difference of 2d6 knockdown versus 10 points of piercing damage).

But yea, the crossbows tend to suffer a bit in general.  Possible suggestion of adding a 'Repeating' modifier to crossbows like the throwing spears?

Also, fun question, any chance of making it possible to disable the ranged 'function' of the throwing axes so you can actually dual wield with Azuredge?                    

[weimer]

I tried the Throwing Impaler... with a Ken-sai... It does around 35 + 10 damage... with imp. haste thats 8-9 attacks ... Seems to me that ken-sai&strength bonuses work on t.spears, and that's way overpowered... I mean, just how much damage can you do with x-bow? (serious question, i don't play archers)

It's "just as overpowered" as an Archer with Slings using Sling +5 and +3 bullets. That's 1d4+9+STR+(level/3) instead of 1d6+14+STR+(level/3), for a meagre difference of 6 per hit. A 30-th level player with 24 strength (quite reasonable at this point in ToB) will be doing:

Sling: 1d4+9+12+10 = 33.5 avg
Impaler: 1d6+14+12+10 =  39.6 avg

So the difference is 15% per attack over existing weapons in this scenario. Bearing in mind that the Sling user can use a Shield at the same time (think Harmony or Order), this does not seem "overpowered compared to the original game".  :-)

In general, the xbows do much less, unless you have the best (non-infinite) ammo, at which point they are half-decent.
                   

[KaPe]

Well 15% is pretty much:) and t. spears are +4... and bloodbane is pretty nice weapon, stunning&poisoning almost anything... Also, i'm not sure if 2-handed weapon 19&20 criticals apply, as well as extra speed&damage...                    

[reiella]

They should affect output while thrown (the same way Two Handed fightign doesn't boost Longbow/shortbow/crossbow etc speed yada).

15% is a significant difference, but so is a shield.                    

[KaPe]

One more thing... archer get less bonuses at hi-levels... 1td&th per 5lvl i think, or is it just my version(pl) ? So the differnce is somewhat bigger... SFME...                    

[Lord God Jinnai]

Maybe not speed, but penetration value and range.                    

[weimer]

The Two-Handed Weapon Style bonuses do not apply to ranged weapons (sorry, game engine).

By "Archer" I meant "Generic Archer". :-)

I don't know what the ToB people were smoking: the ranger-archer is nothing, the kensai is everything. One of them should have gotten that nerfing, and it wasn't the ranger-archer.                    

[Salvanas]

I dunno...My (Ranger) Archer only has 13 for strength, 15 for DEX, and the Tansheron Bow. Her THAC0 was -19 at around Level 30. Add to that her rate of fire (short Bow mastery) which, I think, was either 4 1/2 or 5 per round...then use Call shot.  She's scary. Waitaminute...she was wearing a Fire Giant Girdle...*slaps himself* The Kensai still can't wear armor though...