Author Topic: Improved Irenicus  (Read 11906 times)

Offline weimer

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Improved Irenicus
« on: July 23, 2002, 09:01:15 PM »
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[!-Post: 2486-!][!-Time: 1027027183-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2486]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Littiz[!-/Name-!][/a] on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 02:19 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Before complaining a little I have to say that this battle is
great, I enjoyed very much the idea of "mirroring" the tests  
of the PC. Also the old fight was really not what it should be.
 
But... argh!!
Wes, ehm, argh!!!!!!
I won Ascension, but this one...
urgh
It's not he Eclipse fight, we can't avoid the SoA final battle...
[img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
 
After INCREDIBLE efforts I have managed to find a good strategy
for the first part of the battle...
(I mean that I'm able to win it, say, ONE time in 7-8 tries, no more
than this.....)
Ans this came with MANY, MANY  reloads...
 
Now, let's assume we've won the first.
I have a thief. No uber-abilities.
HOW am I supposed to deal with the Slayer!!?!? [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("]
I can only stand there and die....
Even if I manage to reach my equipment, it changes nothing,
thief abilities are useless, he sees invisible things..
Nothing to do...
In melee there's no match... Come on, he has -20 AC, I have
ONE Attack/Round, here it's not a matter of strategy, with
my char alone I can do absolutely nothing but ask for mercy
(and he WON'T show it...) and death comes unavoidable...
Frustrating...
 
Just out of curiosity, I ctrl-y-ed him when hope was lost...
So I tried even the third part, more than once.
I managed to wound him now and then, but he simply disappears AT ONCE
and heals immediatly.
All the members of my party (not much melee oriented, though)
were hitting together...
Yet I never got him to badly injured.
In the end I always depleted my spells and I was dead meat.
 
My point is: I cannot even figure a way to pass them singularly,
the simple idea of beating them IN SEQUENCE is beyond me.. [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("]
I know you wanted a REAL challenge, and you had maybe Ascension
as a meter, but I really see no way out..
With my party at least.
Is toning down the battle out of question?
Should I re-install the old one?
[img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("] [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("] [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2486-!]
[!-Post: 2490-!][!-Time: 1027031501-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2490]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 03:31 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]HOW am I supposed to deal with the Slayer!!?!? [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("] [/font][/font]
 
Set a trap or two and then turn into the Slayer yourself. You still have that power.  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]Is toning down the battle out of question? [/font][/font]
 
Not at all. You are the first one to offer me any feedback on the battles themselves, so I will take what you have to say seriously.
 
(Blucher, can you try it out for me?)
 
What would you suggest in terms of making each stage easier?  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]Should I re-install the old one? [/font][/font]
 
If you like. Mods are only worthwhile if you're having fun. If this is just becoming frustrating for you, either Ctrl-Y past it or uninstall it.  
 
I will try to incorporate your suggestions, though.[!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2490-!]
[!-Post: 2496-!][!-Time: 1027063169-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2496]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 12:19 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Can this Improved Irenicus mod be installed alone and only? I mean, I have downloaded the latest Sola mod v65, I haven't installed it yet though.
I'd like to give it a try. So, would it be possible for one to test it without unistalling v64 and installing v65?  
 
A silly question perhaps, but I felt to ask it nevertheless.
 
@Wesley -- Have you had some specific tactic for beating him when you were designing Impr. Irenicus? You could probably help by suggesting a couple of things --like the traps above-- without proceeding to changes. Just a thought.  
 
@Littiz --Do you know if User has tested this battle? I know that even a god of cheesy like himself is having serious problems dealing with Eclipse party :-)) but what about Irenicus? What's his opinion? And, by the way, glad to see you here. :-)
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2496-!]
[!-Post: 2497-!][!-Time: 1027065489-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2497]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Littiz[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 12:58 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Well, the first section is damn hard, but we *can* do
it. I find the Wraith of Wrath the most difficult,
as with -24 AC all my "fighters" need a critical....
I've seen something like:
attacks Wraith of Wrath: 19+9 MISS... urgh!
When he focuses on a char, dead char.  
So jaheira for instance, even if she drinks potions
and has ironskin, dies by strenght drain... unless I maze
her at the right time!!! [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]  
With lot of summons and Sola with Prot. Magical Weapons,
I generally score enough criticals to kill him...
So for the first part, maybe I'd lower his AC, but
you could leave it as well for the challenge.
 
The second part.. ehm, forgot about the Slayer!!!!!
But I play always goody goody, and NEVER turn into the
Slayer...
Anyway, found something...
I desperately need traps even in the first part, BUT,
if I place them and then rest, I have another 5 (not-placeable).
(I don't like such kind of cheese, but, in despair...)
So, during the first section, if I manage to kill the others,
I've a lot of "free" time while I try to kill the Wraith,
so my thief could part and go set traps elsewhere...
Then maybe with the Ring of Ram...
Once I won with a few Skull Traps left there by Tashia,
VERY VERY tricky and lucky...
All in all, even this one can be done, yet I think it could
be "adapted" somehow to the PC, don't know if this is too hard
to implement...
For a thief is not an easy ride, believe me [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
 
The third part ouch!
I admit there's a flaw in my tactics.. I don't like
to switch weapons 'cause I consider it a bit cheesy and
unstylish...
If someone has Prot.Magical Weapons, I prefer to take
it down with my mages and then strike...
But HERE I understand I can't go after elegance!! [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
I'll try switching to normal weapons, but I know he'll
simply keep teleporting away...
When I have some more time I'll try again, after all
it took me a week for Ascension
Of course the best is waiting for other  
impressions, if NONE is able to win it you may consider  
toning it down! :D  
 
@Aubrey: ehy, I was under cover!! :D [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2497-!]
[!-Post: 2500-!][!-Time: 1027066662-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2500]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:kozand@yahoo.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]kozan[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 01:17 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Mmmph... If newer Sola version will tone down Irenicus no problem. When we install Sola components we can always select no changes option to II component -if we are mazochist enough to leave uber Irenicus as it is [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]. But I'd like to see by myself first. I have a different party.
Westley, I don't know if you are aware but improved tactical encounters are superb. They make this game challenging even for powergamers! Good work Kensai Ryu, Blucher and others! [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2500-!]
[!-Post: 2507-!][!-Time: 1027105138-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2507]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 11:58 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]Can this Improved Irenicus mod be installed alone and only?[/font][/font]
 
Yes. Just say "no" to the Sola components and "yes" to the Improved Irenicus component.
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]So, would it be possible for one to test it without unistalling v64 and installing v65? [/font][/font]
 
Yes. Download v65, but say "no change" to all of the options except Imp Iren.  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"] Have you had some specific tactic for beating him when you were designing Impr. Irenicus?[/font][/font]
 
No. I designed it with the assumption that a well-balanced party would be very useful.  
 
You'd need a fighter for the Wraith, a magic user for the Sword, a cleric would help for all of the little shadows running around, druids can cast insect plague and disrupt the mages (they aren't immune to spell disruption and they don't use ForceCast whenever possible), etc.  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]as with -24 AC all my "fighters" need a critical.... [/font][/font]
 
Your THAC0s should be around -10 by now, at which point you hit him on a 14 or higher. Try casting Bless, Chant, and drinking strength potions (high strength = bonus to hit) to get your THAC0 down.
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]So for the first part, maybe I'd lower his AC, but you could leave it as well for the challenge.[/font][/font]
 
I'll consider lowering it. Let's see what others say.  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]Westley, I don't know if you are aware but improved tactical encounters are superb. They make this game challenging even for powergamers! Good work Kensai Ryu, Blucher and others![/font][/font]
 
Thank you for your lovely comments.[!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2507-!]
[!-Post: 2517-!][!-Time: 1027115306-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2517]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('* Anonymous *');"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Anonymous[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 02:48 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Yes, they are truly amazing.
I'm enjoying the sola mod so much...
And i haven't reached sola yet! [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"] [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2517-!]
[!-Post: 2522-!][!-Time: 1027120380-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2522]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Littiz[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 04:13 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] My top thac0 is -2 with Jaheira, 19 strenght....
Anyway, I'm able to pass the first section.
IMHO the real part that would need to be toned down is the
third. To me, it is *impossible*
This is what I tried to beat the Third Section:
having MASTERED the previous two parts with an absolutely
perfect strategy, I managed to get there almost at full  
strenght and prepared as I wanted (happened TWICE in countless reloads, ehm)
 
For the Final Irenicus I had all redied:
Hasted fighters, both normal and magic weapons,  
a couple of +5 weapons for the improved mantle,
mages readied to take down his protections, my thief
with 100% Detect Illusion to make him targettable,
a simulacred char wearing the Ring of the Ram,
so I had TWO rings of the Ram!!!!
 
I tried to strike as fast as I could, when finally
I saw two blows hitting at the same time I activated
the TWO rings of Ram... I NEVER damaged him so deeply
and fast before... and he was even under a Creeping Doom!!!
..but of course he teleported away and healed once again!
[img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("] [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("] [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("]
Then I started depleting my resources, and he  raised back fast to Uninjured.
 
The battle till this point lasted an hour, necessary
to do everything so perfect and readied for him...
It wasn't enough!
The second time I got there so well prepared, for some
reason I couldn't even touch him, not even a single wound,  
and he slaughtered my party with his neverending Time Stops.
 
I surrender, I'll remove this component for now... [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("]
Too bad, I had a lot of fun, but I cannot finish it! [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2522-!]
[!-Post: 2526-!][!-Time: 1027151978-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2526]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 12:59 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Littiz--
 
I suppose I have a long run before testing Irenicus, for I have started a new game to experience the new Solaufein's interjections, and we have just come from Underdark. (I don't like testing new components by cluaconsoling the areas, so I'll have to get through the whole quests, which I enjoy nevertheless)
 
Anyway. Taking into consideration that a few months back I had given up any efforts to finish Ascension battle --sooooo many reloads!-- your comments on improved Irenicus really scare me... Just a question out of curiosity: have you been playing with difficulty level on Core rules? Any tries to put it down to Normal?
 
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2526-!]
[!-Post: 2528-!][!-Time: 1027158465-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2528]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Littiz[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 02:47 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I've done it!!!! :D :D
Ahahahah!!!
Wow!!!!
 
What a satisfaction!!!!!!
Thanx Wes!!! [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
I tried again the strategy above, and it worked
this time.....
 
I won Ascension in a week, and this one in six days... so you were right,  
it's EASIER than Ascension!
ehmmmmmm......urgh!!!
[img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"] [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2528-!]
[!-Post: 2529-!][!-Time: 1027163903-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2529]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('* Anonymous *');"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Anonymous[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 04:18 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] WELL DONE LITTIZ!!
CONGRATS!! [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 2529-!]
[!-Post: 2535-!][!-Time: 1027187179-!]

[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2535]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 10:46 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"] I've done it!!!! :D :D  [/font][/font]
 
You are a small god, I bow and worship.
 
Since you are the first person to complete the Improved Irenicus mod, is there anything you would like to see added or changed aside from the tactics (e.g., I could add an Easter Egg for you or something).  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]What a satisfaction!!!!!! [/font][/font]
 
I hope that it outweighs the frustration. I don't think the II fight should be quite this hard.  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]I tried again the strategy above,[/font][/font]
 
This is the "hasted fighters, normal and +5 weapons, creeping doom, simulacrum, rings of the ram" method? Did he ever teleport away, or did you kill him "all at once"?
 
If you would like to write up any hints for new II players, I will include them in the Sola README.
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]it's EASIER than Ascension! [/font][/font]
 
Now that you've played it a thousand times, you have an expert opinion. What should I change to make it easier? Raise the Wraith's AC ... and then do something to make the final fight easier?  
 
One option is to make him do "less damage". Perhaps slow down Jon-Bon's spellcasting? Right now he can cast a spell every two seconds (more or less). I could raise that to every three.  
 
Another option is to make it so that he can't teleport away as quickly. Right now he can do that every three seconds if he is hurt and someone is within 10 feet of him. You didn't notice this, but if you stay away and pepper him with missile weapons (which is hard, because there are very few +5 ranged weapons) he won't teleport away.  
 
Right now he TimeStops every 40 subjective seconds. So that's 18 seconds in the timestop, then 22 seconds out of the timestop, then repeat. I could make that delay longer.  
 
What do you recommend? I want to make the fight "less annoying".  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]your comments on improved Irenicus really scare me[/font][/font]
 
Don't worry, Aubrey. There will be an "easier" version in the next update.  
but of course he teleported away and healed once again![!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2535-!]
[!-Post: 2536-!][!-Time: 1027187835-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2536]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('* Anonymous *');"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Anonymous[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 10:57 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] when will the next version will be out? [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 2536-!]
[!-Post: 2540-!][!-Time: 1027193147-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2540]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 12:25 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] @Littiz --
 
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!I'm really proud of you, my friend!! :-)  
 
And do what Wesley suggested: write a tactic for your battle with improved Irenicus. It would be very helpful, I assure you.
 
@Wesley --
]Don't worry, Aubrey. There will be an "easier" version in the next update.  
 
No, Wesley! I don't want an easier version. Really. If despaired, there is still the alternative of lowering the difficulty level, right?  
 
I believe, too, to what one of Littiz's quotes says: If you never try, you are destined to fail.
 
Seriously, I would suggest you not proceeding to any changes as yet. Wait for more feedback on this battle, and decide afterwards. For example, today I found out that TorGal wasn't all THAT hard as I had thought in my first fight against him. Why? I simply changed tactic. :-)
 
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2540-!]
[!-Post: 2541-!][!-Time: 1027193761-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2541]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 12:36 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] P.S. Since I'm sort of theoritical person myself, I'll comment on Solaufein's new interjections some time soon --I think :-/ If anyone is interested, that is. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2541-!]
[!-Post: 2546-!][!-Time: 1027230279-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2546]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 10:44 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] OK, Aubrey, no new version for you just yet. :-) Let me know what you think of the current one. Any Final-Save trial will do.  :-)
 
I would love to hear your commentary on Sola's interjections. Comments and suggestions are always welcome.  
 
Care to tell us about your new TorGal tactics? [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2546-!]
[!-Post: 2555-!][!-Time: 1027243234-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2555]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Littiz[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 02:20 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Well, now that I won it...
I've changed my opinion on the Wraith, after all  
I HADN'T a balanced party, I lacked in pure fighters.
So this guy was the toughest for me, and had to work
a bit more on him.
You're right, even the second part in the end is not that
hard, if you know it.. I won it with traps and skull traps,
placed while the other party members were still involved in  
the first battle.
Not easy as it seems, but neither impossible as I thought..
Yet the first times, when you're put there naked... with a
weak PC... argh!
(in truth, this is the only hint I could give, in addiction
to yours.... if you haven't a heavy melee char, you'd  
better plan something DURING the first stage of the battle..)
 
The third part is difficult per se, and because you reach  
there less often....
Yes, I used the above strategy (tough I lost Creeping Doom):  
he teleported away twice, but the second time was closer  
and I was able to reach him fast.
I think you could leave all the settings for the spells,  
if something has to be lowered, then I'd choose  
his teleporting capability...
Make it rarer, OR simply, use the DIMENSION DOOR effect!
This way the teleport won't be istantaneous, and you'll be able
to score a couple of added blows if you are fast enough.
EVEN BETTER, do as my friend Aubrey suggests, leave even the third  
part as it is, and make it an unique fight as for Ascension!
I'll keep even this version if you change it.. [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
 
@Aubrey: thanx for your comments!!! [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
So, you say it's time for my "more aggressive" quotes once  
again? :D
I could write my tactic, but it would be VERY specific to my party...
 
BTW, what is an Easter Egg??? ehm.. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2555-!]
[!-Post: 2558-!][!-Time: 1027266422-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2558]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 08:47 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] @Littiz --
 
]BTW, what is an Easter Egg??? ehm..  
 
Usually it's a chocolate egg given as a present to the children at Easter; but judging from the context, Wesley possibly means some kind of change or a bonus of sort as a "gift" to you --since you have been the first and only one so far to have tested and won improved Irenicus. I might be wrong though...
 
 
@Wesley --
 
]Care to tell us about your new TorGal tactics?  
 
I don't consider it something "special", and I believe more experienced players wouldn't have had any serious problem beating him. Anyway, I'll write it down to a new conversation.
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2558-!]
[!-Post: 2560-!][!-Time: 1027271757-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2560]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 10:15 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!]Unrelated, mostly, the mighty Compton was kind enough to point me to a non-local Ilyich thread:  
 
[a HREF="http://feedback.blackisle.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48461"]
http://feedback.blackisle.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48461[/a]
 
You know you want to try Imp Ilyich now that you've mastered either Imp TorGal or Imp Irenicus. :-)  
 
Here's how the Hacker's Dictionary defines "easter egg":
 
[font FACE="Courier New"]Easter egg n.
 
[from the custom of the Easter Egg hunt observed in the U.S. and many parts of Europe] 1. A message hidden in the object code of a program as a joke, intended to be found by persons disassembling or browsing the code. 2. A message, graphic, or sound effect emitted by a program (or, on a PC, the BIOS ROM) in response to some undocumented set of commands or keystrokes, intended as a joke or to display program credits. One well-known early Easter egg found in a couple of OSes caused them to respond to the command make love with not war?. Many personal computers have much more elaborate eggs hidden in ROM, including lists of the developers' names, political exhortations, snatches of music, and (in one case) graphics images of the entire development team. [/font]
 
The entire pantaloon thing can be consider a (not-very-well-kept) easter egg. But, for example, if you wanted me to add a specific line of dialogue or something I could.  
 
Even tactics specific to your party would be useful if you have time.[!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2560-!]
[!-Post: 2623-!][!-Time: 1027362903-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2623]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 11:35 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I gave my very first *hopeless* try with a previous Final-Save.
 
First: the guy had stolen our equipment while we were sleeping. THAT'S NOT FAIR!! Wasn't enough for him that he has stolen my soul? (bloody b@#$@#d!) Secondly: I felt my knees trembling, I simply can't stand beholders! Solaufein went down first; the second to follow was I. Game Over! :-((
 
What I noticed: Nothing! I hadn't had the luxury of time. (Afterwards I read about Master Wraith's responsibility of Solaufein's and my death, too!)  
 
Next *try*: at the end of my current game.
 
About the concept: Excellent idea, Mr Weimer! I consider it being a challenge based on mind and fighting style as well!
(You are pushing me out of my theoritical fields, but allow me to resist for the moment...)
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2623-!]
[!-Post: 2630-!][!-Time: 1027370475-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2630]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 01:41 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]THAT'S NOT FAIR!![/font][/font]
 
It happened at the beginning of BG2 as well. There's a big difference between stealing the Cloak of Cheese and stealing all of your equipment. Taking all of your equipment at this stage would not have been such a hot idea. Stealing the Cloak of Cheese allows me to even entertain the notion of having an enemy that uses damaging spells against you. If I don't take it, there's really no point in casting Fireball and Magic Missile. In addition, you can and will get this "temporarily borrowed" equipment back. :-)
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]Secondly: I felt my knees trembling, I simply can't stand beholders! Solaufein went down first; the second to follow was I. Game Over! :-(( [/font][/font]
 
Really? I uniformly find the Orb of Fear to be the easiest of the fragments. Get your saves down to about -4 in Spells and he can't really hurt you.  
 
Spell Turning and Spell Deflection also work very well on Beholders. The Orb is not a "smarter beholder" (as per the mod) so he will fire his eye beams at high-MR people and people with spell turning.  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]What I noticed: Nothing! I hadn't had the luxury of time. [/font][/font]
 
Better luck next time!  
 
What difficulty level do you play on? I'm considering making some parts of the fight easier if you slide the difficulty slider all the way to "easiest".[!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2630-!]
[!-Post: 2633-!][!-Time: 1027371362-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2633]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Reiella Darksythe[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 01:56 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Slight suggestion, keep the Shield of the Balduran [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"].  That or add it to the list of things stolen. [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 2633-!]
[!-Post: 2654-!][!-Time: 1027411800-!]

[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2654]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 01:10 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] @ Wesley --
 
]Taking all of your equipment at this stage would not have been such a hot idea. Stealing the Cloak of Cheese allows me to even entertain the notion of having an enemy that uses damaging spells against you. If I don't take it, there's really no point in casting Fireball and Magic Missile. In addition, you can and will get this "temporarily borrowed" equipment back. :-)  
 
I understand perfectly your point. That's why I characterised it as an "excellent idea". [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
 
]Really? I uniformly find the Orb of Fear to be the easiest of the fragments.  
 
I didn't mean that the Orb of Fear was rensposible for our death, but rather that I have an innate dislike for beholders. A sort of "trauma".
 
]What difficulty level do you play on? I'm considering making some parts of the fight easier if you slide the difficulty slider all the way to "easiest".
 
Always on Core rules, and that's why I always face difficulties in winning hard battles. I'm not a RPG veteran, but this doesn't mean that I'll compromise with an easier level. Yes. Better luck next time. [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("]
 
By the way, is this the first part of the fight?
 
@Reiella Darksythe --
 
Shield of Balduran had disappeared! It was the first thing to check out when I realised there was a beholder amongst...us!
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2654-!]
[!-Post: 2660-!][!-Time: 1027450652-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2660]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 11:57 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Wesley,
 
I don't think that the Wraith of Wrath is the *most* difficult part. He's incredibly powerful, I agree. But the *major* problem is that bloody b@#$@#d Irenicus and the frequency of his spell casting. [After fifteen minutes we did kill the dragon, and we were about to take Wraith of Wrath down and the Sword of Greed as well --both of them "Near Death"-- when Mr Shattered One cut me into little pieces. (In the meantime Keldorn and Solaufein had died and been resurrected.)]
 
Irenicus casts one spell after the other. Even Tashia with the Robe of Vecna --and, mind you, she's the only party member with 9th level spells and reduced casting time-- is unable to compete him!  
 
Okay, I understand my saying here is just a fragment of the whole picture, but I do believe that Irenicus casting time should be increased a little. Three seconds instead of two? I don't know. Whatever it takes to have the job done.  
 
Spells I find quite helpful so far in this still unfinished battle: simulacrum, project image, lightning, planetar and Deva summonings, holy smite, chain lightning --the last two are a *must*, imo.
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2660-!]
[!-Post: 2661-!][!-Time: 1027453949-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2661]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Littiz[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 12:52 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Aubrey, I think you have a little lesson here...
Don't LET a mage (ANY mage) cast his spells!!!!!! [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
That is the first Irenicus you encounter, and, unlike the
last one, he dies pretty well by area spells, Abi, Skulls,
and the like.
I'm sure your Tashia has the needed spells!
I *know*, the first times it's frustrating! [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
 
My advice: go kill as fast as possible Selfish Irenicus
(for his spells and his Shatter Magic) and the Dragon!
 
 
The Orb, the Sword and the Wraith may wait (a little..) ;) [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2661-!]
[!-Post: 2663-!][!-Time: 1027456467-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2663]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 01:34 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]I don't think that the Wraith of Wrath is the *most* difficult part. He's incredibly powerful, I agree. But the *major* problem is that bloody b@#$@#d Irenicus and the frequency of his spell casting.[/font][/font]
 
Unlike many boss spellcasters in this game (e.g., Mel), Irenicus can always be interrupted. Hitting him with Insect Plague, Creeping Doom, Miscast Magic, Poison, etc., will all work.
 
Also note that, except for some preps at the beginning of the battle, his "rate of fire" is constant. You won't see any sequencers or contingencies from this Smarter Mage.  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]After fifteen minutes we did kill the dragon[/font][/font]
 
Presumably this is 15 minutes of wall clock time, not 15 minutes of game time. :-)
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]Irenicus casts one spell after the other. Even Tashia with the Robe of Vecna --and, mind you, she's the only party member with 9th level spells and reduced casting time-- is unable to compete him! [/font][/font]
 
Selfish Irenicus has a Robe of Vecna and an Amulet of Power for spell-casting speed reduction. In addition, he behaves as if he were under the continuous effects of "Improved Alacrity".  
 
Tashia could have all of these benefits (well, Alac for 3 rounds anyway) after you kill the Dragon and get back the Amulet. Actually, Selfish Irenicus will not cast spells "as fast as he can" because of his intentional 2 second delay. So Tashia could go faster. For example, Tashia could pump out 5 Skull Traps in 0 seconds with the Robe.  
 
What is also worth noticing is that his "2 second delay" is a full stop: he won't teleport away during it. So for two seconds after he casts a spell, you can hurt him with impunity.  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]Three seconds instead of two? I don't know. Whatever it takes to have the job done. [/font][/font]
 
We could certainly do that. If you think he is way too hard currently (what difficulty level are you playing at) send me some email and I'll send you a replacement script for him that ups the delay to 3 seconds.  
 
Interestingly enough, I've never used Holy Smite or Chain Lightning in this fight.  
 
The advice of Littiz is quite good here. Selfish Irenicus's special "Shatter Magic" spell is not fun. Keeping your buffs and magic resistance is quite useful.[!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2663-!]
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[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2669]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 04:06 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] @ Littiz --
 
]My advice: go kill as fast as possible Selfish Irenicus (for his spells and his Shatter Magic) and the Dragon!
 
According to my estimation, the Dragon has to go down first! If we go for Selfish Irenicus leaving the Dragon alone, we shall all end up sleeping meats for Wraith of Wrath's breakfast. On taking him down second, I wouldn't disagree.
 
@Wesley --
 
]Presumably this is 15 minutes of wall clock time, not 15 minutes of game time.
 
Of course! What did you think? Now that I'm thinking it again maybe it was 20 minutes... [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("]
 
]We could certainly do that. If you think he is way too hard currently (what difficulty level are you playing at) send me some email and I'll send you a replacement script for him that ups the delay to 3 seconds.
 
I'm playing at Core rules; and though I'm tempted to accept your offer, I feel I should decline.  
 
Today it was my first *serious* trial with the same old Final Save. I should try more, I'm afraid, to experiment with spells and such, and in either case to find a way to kill him. And, as I wrote before a while to Littiz, I'm trying to avoid reading his walkthrough for this battle before I find a way of my own. (Go, Aubrey! Go! ...Oooops! I stumbled over something...) :D
 
]Interestingly enough, I've never used Holy Smite or Chain Lightning in this fight.  
 
These two spells helped us a lot to take down the Dragon while a Planetar kept Irenicus and the Orb busy. Holy Smite is... well, holy smite! :-)
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2669-!]
[!-End-!]
[a name=MB]
<!--/Messages-->                    

reiella

  • Guest
Improved Irenicus
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2002, 09:58:43 PM »
Ouch, just tried my hand at Improved Irenicus, ugly ugly nasty yick.

Time Stop, Imp Alaclarity + Horrid Wiltinging/HLA AE damage really help alot.  Along with the cheese Triple Triggers of Lower Res.

Phase 1 was actually a bit harder for me than Phase 2.  Globe of Blades really hurts the Slayer Irenicus, Blade Barrier and/or Aura of Flaming Death the same.  Sanchoowhatever should also deal a fair bit of damage, just be sure to have your protag holding your piles of Healing Potions if necessary.

Phase 3... I can't tell.  It crashes BG2 the same way Pontifex does (and the Improved Twisted Rune).  I did notice an error message from the dialog text however.  The CreateCreature("shadow01",[1600.2100]) I believe, complains about command being too long, not sure why though.

In anycase, uninstalled II and got past it finally, and saved my game in ToB.  Did a full uninstall and cleanup, and going to go through again, and see if the problem was just an odd quirk, very weird though.

[ Add ]
Oh yes, Spell50 Vamp Touch owns all...
Edwin uses Vamp Touch on Irenicus in Phase 1, goes from 59 hp to 230.  No saving throw and that huge damage (And the secondary effect) are very nice.   Might be worthwhile to see if someone (not me I suck at scripting :P) would do an alternate set of ai scripts for some battles for the Spell50 mod.  As said, Vampiric Touch is seriously powerful (and something any sane person should fear :P).                    



[!--EDIT|reiella|Aug 1 2002, 05:03 AM--]

Aubrey

  • Guest
Improved Irenicus
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2002, 01:41:42 AM »
Do you agree with Littiz, that you should not waste your spells in the 1st phase, but keep them for the later ones?


Cheers                    

Littiz

  • Guest
Improved Irenicus
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2002, 02:21:39 AM »
Interesting, Reiella..
I think I won't download the 50-level mod then..
I know the enemies benefit as well from that, but I see
it changes completely the game and the basic involved
strategies, and this is not what I'm searching for...
If I understand correctly, it rises the reloads (more unresurectable
deaths in the party), and make battles last shorter :unsure:
About the crash, could it be a local problem, seeing how
you experimented that in different places?

@Aubrey: I didn't say such a thing, I said to do it FAST!!! :D
Spells are desperately needed!                    

Aubrey

  • Guest
Improved Irenicus
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2002, 05:45:44 AM »
Quote
Don't LET a mage (ANY mage) cast his spells!!!!!!  
That is the first Irenicus you encounter, and, unlike the
last one, he dies pretty well by area spells, Abi, Skulls,
and the like.

 :blink:  :huh: :unsure:

Littiz, what exactly did you mean by giving this advice then??


Cheers                    

Littiz

  • Guest
Improved Irenicus
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2002, 07:02:29 AM »
@Aubrey, you're confusing things a little! :)
I'm speaking there about the FIRST Irenicus, who appears
in the first stage of the battle.
At that point he's pretty vulnerable to damaging spells, so
it's the right moment to use them as fast as possible.

The LAST Irenicus is basically immune to damaging spells
of any kind, and even spell removals seem to have little effect,
so you won't need them anymore.
Still, you may need to preserve some defensive spells and buffs
just to survive against him (the LAST Irenicus I mean).....

Anyway, everything else I could tell is already in the Sola
readme! :)
                   

Littiz

  • Guest
Improved Irenicus
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2002, 07:12:08 AM »
.. and of course I meant "don't let an ENEMY mage cast his spells"..
 :lol:  :lol:
 :P                    

Aubrey

  • Guest
Improved Irenicus
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2002, 07:19:11 AM »
Quote
@Aubrey, you're confusing things a little!

Possibly, but what I had understood by your post was that I shouldn't use any spells during my encounter with the FIRST Irenicus... There is also the possibility you be a fervent user of ellipsis, in which case...  mea culpa. ;)   :D


Cheers                    

Littiz

  • Guest
Improved Irenicus
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2002, 03:34:40 PM »
Don't forget I speak english with RED WINE and SPAGHETTI
in my belly, @Aubrey! :D
Maybe I'm bending it closer to my language, forgive me..
Anyway I meant something general about enemy mages, that's
the lesson I spoke of!
But you already knew it, of course.

hm, starting for vacation, see you all soon guys! :)

[size=8]I hope....[/size]                    

Gospel

  • Guest
Improved Irenicus
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2002, 03:36:50 PM »
Bye bye, sir(ma'am?) :D

Have fun *runs like a cat!* :)

reiella

  • Guest
Improved Irenicus
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2002, 03:23:14 PM »
For 2nd Phase, the only spell you need to be able to cast is a Blade Barrier, Fallen Deva/Planetar, Globe of Blades, or some other damage shield (and have potions to heal yourself).

For 3rd. I really can't say due to the crash sequence.

I do think the crash problem may be local, since it occurs with Pontifex, the Improved Twisted Rune and II.  Did a fresh install and going through again to test and will see.                    

Althernai

  • Guest
Improved Irenicus
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2002, 10:34:32 PM »
I finally got up to Improved Irenicus, and I must say, you've done it again.  There were previously two instances where I thought "Who can seriously expect to win this?" (Ascension final and Eclipse party time stop), but now there is a third - when the dragon shows up and you lose your better items.

Still, after a couple of reloads I found that it is relatively (don't get any ideas! relatively) easy once the Dragon of Pride is dead. Probably would be very hard had I not done all the quests in SoA (I had Project Image, Wish, Time Stop and Improved Alacrity). I used this order Greed + Pride (same Time Stop), Fear, Wrath (kept him occupied with pre-placed Elementals), Selfish (annoying, but not as deadly as the others).

There were a couple of issues:

1) The game froze on me once in the first phase after I killed the dragon and the sword. This is very unusual- the only other time BG2 has done this was in the final battle of Ascension. Probably some local problem though, it didn't happen again.

2) After the very last fight, where you get the animation of sunray coming down on you signifying soul transfer, Irenicus is not there - you are alone on the screen. Did you intend this to happen?

3) I played with a fairly balanced and powerful party. How would one do this with, say, a solo warrior (can't damage the Sword by much - Ring of the Ram, of Energy and... what else?)

4) When he makes you drop your items in the solo fight, is there a way to put your armor back on? For a mage/sorcerer, this means the Robe of Vecna, for anyone else, simply armor. I used Protection from Magic Weapons, but if you were a fighter, wouldn't he tear you apart?

5) Did you make it so that Wish does not yield the 'Rest' option after the first phase or is that just my rotten luck? (19 Wis)

Overall, a nice fight.  Makes the game make sense again - the previous Irenicus was way, way easier than your Improved Bodhi.                    

Offline weimer

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2002, 11:43:33 PM »
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I finally got up to Improved Irenicus, and I must say, you've done it again.  There were previously two instances where I thought "Who can seriously expect to win this?" (Ascension final and Eclipse party time stop), but now there is a third - when the dragon shows up and you lose your better items.

I'm glad that you're having fun. :-)

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Still, after a couple of reloads I found that it is relatively (don't get any ideas! relatively) easy

I won't get any ideas, but I'm glad that to hear that it becomes do-able after a few tries. That's about the difficulty I was hoping for: not so obvious that you can just coast through it, but not so difficult that you get frustrated.

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Improved Alacrity). I used this order Greed + Pride (same Time Stop), Fear, Wrath (kept him occupied with pre-placed Elementals), Selfish (annoying, but not as deadly as the others).

You would say that Fear is more deadly than Selfish? Others have given similar reports, but I was personally always worried that Fear would be the weak link.

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2) After the very last fight, where you get the animation of sunray coming down on you signifying soul transfer, Irenicus is not there - you are alone on the screen. Did you intend this to happen?

Sorta. It works conceptually without Irenicus there and it would take more effort on my part to tweak the cut-scene scripts to put him in there. Since this results in only an "appearance" gain (rather than a playability gain), I've been ignoring it.

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3) I played with a fairly balanced and powerful party. How would one do this with, say, a solo warrior (can't damage the Sword by much - Ring of the Ram, of Energy and... what else?)

The README mentions that a balanced party is more or less a requirement. I'm not sure what you would do against the Sword. Sanchu can kill it, which is why it takes Sanchu :-). You might be able to kill it with the Wisdom Drain from H'D's sword. Haven't tried. Perhaps the Level Drain from Soul Reaver or Blackrazor?

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4) When he makes you drop your items in the solo fight, is there a way to put your armor back on?

Not easily. You'd have to have about 30 seconds where you "weren't in combat" to do so. Since all of the exits to the lower levels are disabled and Irenicus is chasing you, this is unlikely to occur.

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armor. I used Protection from Magic Weapons, but if you were a fighter, wouldn't he tear you apart?

If you're a Kensai or a Monk, it's no loss at all. Even as a fighter, if you've got a shield, a helmet, two rings, a cloak, a girdle, etc., your AC can be quite decent without actual armor.

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5) Did you make it so that Wish does not yield the 'Rest' option after the first phase or is that just my rotten luck? (19 Wis)

I didn't do anything special to Wish, but I think Ascension may have.

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Overall, a nice fight.  Makes the game make sense again - the previous Irenicus was way, way easier than your Improved Bodhi.

Ah, I have become my own source of meaning: We need WesMod A in order for the game to make sense once you've installed WesMod B. :-)

Thanks for the comments. Is there anything you'd really like to see changed in the fight?                    

reiella

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2002, 11:59:55 PM »
Hmm if Ascension did anything to Wish, it was simply to increase the Rest occurance chance.

Almost every time I run through Ascension end-game, Wish comes up with Fully Rested.  Could just be Wild Mage Luck though :).                    

Althernai

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2002, 03:27:17 PM »
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You would say that Fear is more deadly than Selfish? Others have given similar reports, but I was personally always worried that Fear would be the weak link.
I don't know if Fear is actually that deadly, but its avatar is certainly well chosen - you may know exactly what it does, but most others don't.  It's a beholder and I don't have the Cloak of Mirroring. How would I know that it won't cast Death Ray, Anti-Magic Ray, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone or Imprisonment? In addition to this, we are told it drains Con (another reason I take out Selfish last - all except him drain something).                    

alson

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2002, 09:10:18 PM »
Yay!! I've just beaten Improved Irenicus!
:D  :)  B)  
On my second try!!!


At the first try i got toasted, but at the second try, when i knew where all the spawning points are, it wasn't that hard. i just set a trap for each spawning point, which hurt each of them pretty badly.

The second part was VERY easy with my Cavalier - GWW = dead slayer.

The last part was the hardest. Took me about an hour (!), real time of course.
The constant "Teleport, Heal, Kick my @$$ and repeat" routine is what makes this part the hardest, but the satisfaction of beating it with no cheese or cheating is worth it.

I'll post more info on the battle later, if you wish. I'm going to sleep now, it's 5:51 AM in here...
Thank you, Wes, for making this wonderful fight!

Oh, and BTW - i should note that i was in a pretty high level - about 4M XP for each party member, and it was a party of six. I also had good weapons, from Watcher's Keep (and Wes' Item Upgrade Mod, of course :P )                    

Offline weimer

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2002, 09:24:16 PM »
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Yay!! I've just beaten Improved Irenicus!
:D  :)  B)  
On my second try!!!

Well done!

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At the first try i got toasted, but at the second try, when i knew where all the spawning points are, it wasn't that hard. i just set a trap for each spawning point, which hurt each of them pretty badly.

Hmm, this is bad. I tried to make shadows appear right before the Fragments in order to stop that sort of trap-setting. Where did you set your traps? Right where they appear? Or sort of "on the path between them and you"?

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The second part was VERY easy with my Cavalier - GWW = dead slayer.

Yeah, that seems to vary by class. I imagine monks would sleepwalk it too. Thieves seem to have trouble. :-)

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The last part was the hardest. Took me about an hour (!), real time of course.

Ouch! Admittedly, I play on 60 fps and typically with auto-pausing turned off for the II fight. But an hour?

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The constant "Teleport, Heal, Kick my @$$ and repeat" routine is what makes this part the hardest, but the satisfaction of beating it with no cheese or cheating is worth it.

Ah, that's very good to hear.

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I'll post more info on the battle later, if you wish. I'm going to sleep now, it's 5:51 AM in here...

I would like to hear more about how you did things. Get some sleep, though. :-)                    

alson

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2002, 01:01:20 PM »
I'm back!  :)

This is how the battle went... Warning, long post with some spoilers on the battle!

The first time i tried it, i opened the door, had the conversation with Jonnie, and when he summoned all his Fragments i was VERY surprised to see that i ought to fight them all at once! Well, i paused the game, targeted 'em, and unpaused.
Hey, wait a minute, where are you going?!?! Damn, they're splitting my party... Not good. Once each member of the party was isolated with a Fragment, it was a matter of seconds until i fell.
I reloaded.
This time i knew where each Fragment will teleport. I've set a trap on the entrance to each of the stairways, and a spike trap in the place where the Seravok will teleport to.
I don't pre-buff at all, except Stone/Ironskins, so i also set many defensive Triggers and Sequencers. I opened the door, chit-chatted with Jonnie again, and paused when the dialogue was done.
I told Tashia to target the sword, my cavalier to target the Dragon, Sola to target the Beholder (because of his MR), my ranger/cleric to target Jonnie (Insects...), Mazzy to target Seravok (she had the lowest THACO), and the Swashbuckler helped the Cavalier.
I unpaused.
Each fragment was hurt by the traps, but none died. Everybody attacked.
The sword died first from triple ADHWs. Mazzy sniped Seravok, and everytime he got too close, she ran away and sniped him again. After the sword died, Tashia was free to help my cavalier, so she kept breaching the dragon. Both my cavalier and the swashy Whirlwinded, and the Dragon fell, too. The swash is using the Throwing Imapler... OUCH!!!
Meanwhile, Seravok died from a GWW Mazzy. Sola had alot of troubles with the Orb, but Tashia summoned a planetar which helped alot, and the Orb died. Sola had about 2 CON left...
Everybody tageted Irenicus. His "Shatter Magic" ability is awful... It really hurt me. Tashia kept trying to dispel his protections, but with no luck. He fell after a long time. i'm no so sure, but i think it was the Planetar vorpal weapon which killed him.

Then came the Slayer. pathetic. He did blew my equipment - TO MY FEET!
Well, i picked it all up, Whirlwinded, and killed him.

And then came the last Irenicus... *shivers*...
Damn, he was hard!! but i did all i could not to lose it, didn't wanted to do it all over again.
Tashia's PI casted Wish, and i got nothing good.
everybody tageted Irenicus, and he was kicking their @$$ with his magic. (one note Wes - he casted alot of Greater Malison on me - it does not stack, so have him cast it again everytime it runs out). His double fireshields really hurt me, but meanwhile, the Image casted another Wish, and i got the Rest option. Yay! more insects and Planetars! my cavalier kept pounding him with his non-magical bastard sword, but never seemed to hurt. Irenicus' constant casting of PfMW almost killed me.
Are his defences un-dispellable? I kept trying, with no luck. It seemed like he was immune to EVERYTHING i had - melee, ranged, even ADHWs and Dragon Breathes!!!!
Tashia summoned all the Planetars she had, which really helped cuz the can see through his Invis. All the planetars and my ranger/cleric casted Insect plague on him, but it took them SEVERAL MINUTES (!) to get to him due to his constant Teleporting. They were the key to the victory.
When they got to him eventually, he could do no more then teleport and heal. The insects ate his Stoneskins really fast, and when i saw that my cavalier can it him, i drove everybody except him back.
Now, it's personal.  :angry: .
I GWW, and hit him like crazy. everytime he teleported, i chased him, GWW again, and pounded him. He died after about a minute.

I was so happy when he died... I danced in the living room with my dog... In 5 AM...  :D  :) ...

Whoa! that must be the longest post i ever wrote  :)                    

Offline weimer

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2002, 01:14:53 PM »
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I'm back!  :)

This is how the battle went... Warning, long post with some spoilers on the battle!

Thanks for the info. I have added your tactic to the README section about beating him. Nice job.

Since the last bit took so long, do you think I should make him teleport or heal less in phase 3?                    

alson

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2002, 02:00:22 PM »
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Thanks for the info. I have added your tactic to the README section about beating him. Nice job.

I am honored!  :)

You might wanna check the post for spelling and grammar mistakes - i'm not an english native speaker...  ;)


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Since the last bit took so long, do you think I should make him teleport or heal less in phase 3?

IMO, definitely no.
As i said... That's what gave me the satisfaction.                    



[!--EDIT|alson|Aug 5 2002, 09:01 PM--]

JAG

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2002, 04:38:27 AM »
Hiya Wes,
   Just thought I would add some thoughts on the Imp. Irenicus battles.  First off, excellent work, this makes for a really challenging end fight.  
   My party consisted of a fighter/thief (main char), fighter/cleric (Jaheria...I played God a bit), barbarian, Inquisitor, wild mage, and sorceror.  In the end, I did end up winning the whole thing on hardest, but I had Jahiera permanently dead (think she was whacked by the Wrath Wraith), so I reloaded and went to core rules.  I haven't heard anyone trying it with the hardest difficulty, but the little extra spawners do increase the difficulty significantly IMO (especially the liches and beholders).  I found the hardest fragments to be the dragon and Selfish Irenicus.  Wrath and Greed I could at least slow down with summons (wrath was difficult when he actually had to be taken down), but I had trouble getting anything to work on Selfish boy...spells were either not working due to MR or because of his damn cloak.  The dragon was tough because the timing had to be just right with a time stop, imp. alac. (I had a pretty high level party, the single level chars were around level 21-22), lower res., and various attacking spells because the wing buffet and level draining breath were too damaging to get hit by.  
   After that, it was actually pretty smooth sailing.  The Irenicus Slayer isn't too bad so long as you drink an oil of speed prior to it starting (greater evasion helped speed things up as well)...as long as you can get to your equipment, even without putting armor on, I didn't find it too tough (f/t).
   And I actually found the final Irenicus to be relatively simple as well.  The difficult part is starting to hurt him (for some reason, nonmagical weapons seem to have no effect in the beginning of the fight when he has Prot. from Mag. Weapons and not Imp. Mantle active, but then for some reason they do), but once you do start hurting him, as long as your guys are fast (Boots of Speed, Oil of Speed, Imp. Haste, Greater Evasion, Barbarians having +2 move. rate, Monks), he doesn't do anything except futilely trying to heal himself.  If anything, I would improve the difficulty of this last part so that if you actually hurt him, he at least still tries some offensive instead of uselessly trying to heal himself as you run him down.  The end part for me didn't take more than 5-10 mins real time.  
   This is a bit off-topic, but all these improved fights, tactics, etc... have really increased my enjoyment (and frustration, but in a good way) of the game.  It's fun to fight monsters using the same types of high quality maneuvers that players use.  I'd like to make a special plug for Kuroisan, who even though I had read about him the first time, still killed 4 of my chars the first time I battled him (and left one running away with low morale) and the second time through killed 2 of my chars...and frankly the only thing I could do was use hasted guys to run around until his resistances started wearing off before I could even injure him.  It also makes you appreciate all the more that wonderful katana you get from him.  The thing that shocked me about him was that he was a level 13/14 Kensai mage...what a crazy fight that would be with him even higher level to cast 9th level spells, use GWW...I'd be highly interested in something like that if you ever get time.  
   Anyway, thanks again, absolutely great stuff.

Jamie                    

Offline weimer

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2002, 12:50:45 PM »
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First off, excellent work, this makes for a really challenging end fight.  

Glad to hear that you liked it.

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I haven't heard anyone trying it with the hardest difficulty, but the little extra spawners do increase the difficulty significantly IMO (especially the liches and beholders).

You are the first person to mention trying (and/or winning) it on Impossible to me. :-) Well done.
 
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but I had trouble getting anything to work on Selfish boy...spells were either not working due to MR or because of his damn cloak.

Much like Kuroisan, that's a little bias of mine leaking through. PCs with the cloak make it very difficult to come up with viable AI strategies (because the AI is very hard to make adaptable). OTOH, one in a while an NPC with the cloak can force the PCs to think out-of-the-box a bit.
 
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The dragon was tough because the timing had to be just right with a time stop, imp. alac. (I had a pretty high level party, the single level chars were around level 21-22),

I don't think it's possible to play through SoA with ToB installed and get to the end without some HLAs. :-)

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lower res., and various attacking spells because the wing buffet and level draining breath were too damaging to get hit by.  

Interestingly enough, it's not actually all that different from the Improved Shadow Dragon (it's basically a direct copy). No one seems to have any problems with Imp Thax, but Pride seems to be quite tough. Maybe it's the distratctions on the battlefield?

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The Irenicus Slayer isn't too bad so long as you drink an oil of speed

Sure, that would probably work. It's more "scary" than "actually difficult" because I cannot predict the PC's class.

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(for some reason, nonmagical weapons seem to have no effect in the beginning of the fight when he has Prot. from Mag. Weapons and not Imp. Mantle active,

His first buff is in fact Imp Mantle, not ProMagWeap.

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If anything, I would improve the difficulty of this last part so that if you actually hurt him, he at least still tries some offensive instead of uselessly trying to heal himself as you run him down.

Unfortunately, you are in the minority here. The fact that you beat it on Impossible means that your tactical skills are above the norma, even for consumers of "Improved Weimer Battles". Most other people seem to find the healing in this stage sufficiently fast and furious (see previous posts).

He will in fact only cast CCW if he cannot see you. This means you're seeing the result of your people being *way fast* -- you're hitting him in the second or two between when he doens't see you (and casts the spell) and when it finishes.

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This is a bit off-topic, but all these improved fights, tactics, etc... have really increased my enjoyment (and frustration, but in a good way) of the game.

I'm so glad to hear that. Those were my thoughts as well, which is why I made them.

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I'd like to make a special plug for Kuroisan, who even though I had read about him the first time, still killed 4 of my chars the first time

He's fun, isn't he?

If I may indulge in a little nostalgia, there was a time near the birth of the Sola mod when I got quite a lot of flack for the "3 revenge spider fight". It was unimaginably difficult and the source of endless pain to all comers. The bar seems to have been raised since then. :-)

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him was that he was a level 13/14 Kensai mage...what a crazy fight that would be with him even higher level to cast 9th level spells, use GWW...I'd be highly interested in something like that if you ever get time.  

Have you beaten the Eclipse?

Thank for taking the time to share your thoughts.                    

JAG

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2002, 01:12:29 PM »
Just a quick response for you Wes...

"Interestingly enough, it's not actually all that different from the Improved Shadow Dragon (it's basically a direct copy). No one seems to have any problems with Imp Thax, but Pride seems to be quite tough. Maybe it's the distratctions on the battlefield?"

Definitely...you try to concentrate on Selfish Irenicus and here comes a Wing Buffet comes and knocks out your chars...you basically have to take that dragon down before he screws around with knocking your chars across the screen (to be hit by the Greed Sword/Wrath Wraith)

"His first buff is in fact Imp Mantle, not ProMagWeap"

Really?  I could've sworn at the end of his first time stop the times I've tried it it says 'Protection from Magical Weapons' at the bottom of the screen, which is why I switched to nonmagical weapons...

"Unfortunately, you are in the minority here. The fact that you beat it on Impossible means that your tactical skills are above the norma, even for consumers of "Improved Weimer Battles". Most other people seem to find the healing in this stage sufficiently fast and furious (see previous posts).

He will in fact only cast CCW if he cannot see you. This means you're seeing the result of your people being *way fast* -- you're hitting him in the second or two between when he doens't see you (and casts the spell) and when it finishes."

Actually, I just think my party probably had more exp. than the average party...but if people are having trouble with the last part, I definitely recommend the adage 'Speed Kills' :)

"Have you beaten the Eclipse?"

Haven't had the chance to battle them yet...I'm really looking forward to it though.  I haven't played through TOB with Ascension yet, so there's that final battle that sounds challenging as well.  Still got some fun stuff to do and I'm already thinking of my next party to challenge everything. :)

Thanks again,

Jamie




                   

KaPe

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2002, 09:33:31 AM »
One thing... Final (3rd) Irenicus is way too easy, if you use Wizard Slayer... 2-3 hits, and he's completely hopeless... I don't remember if he casts CCW, but his offensive spells just don't work... You probably should do something about that... Also Wrath is easy to kill with CH, or smite...                    

KaPe

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Improved Irenicus
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2002, 09:42:36 AM »
One more thing... sorry for my English :o                    

 

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