Author Topic: Romance Conclusion  (Read 13242 times)

Offline jcompton

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2002, 11:16:13 PM »
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Of course, we know and accept that the "Weimerfein" is nearly omnipotent and Eilistraee is his penpal,
Jason, I sense some lingering resentment here.


Actually, really, no, I was just focusing in on the narrow "never" aspect of the topic that was started waaaaaaaaaaaaaay at the top of this thread and obviously brought too much jibing abrasion to the table.

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Even the otherwise-moderate Kelsey becomes a destructive powerhouse at ToB levels.


No argument, if he's doing anything but raining death far earlier than that, somebody hasn't read a tip or two about playing sorcerers. This really wasn't about anybody's NPC in particular.

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"Nearly omnipotent" seems a bit of a stretch.

I didn't say it was just him. As you point out, anybody in TOB is a dervish of destruction unless you catch them having a bad day or throw a lot of cheese at them or set up some heavy resistances and ultra-special powers (Balthazar leaps to mind), etc.

As for how you deploy Eilistraee, yes, it's a choice of your storytelling style, more on the SINGLE thing I had in mind below...

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it would have taken 2 minutes to special case in "Shar" and "Baervan" and whatnot as Holy Symbols for Vic and Aerie. Instead they get Talos and Lathander -- what were they smoking? The clear message from the game designers is "we can't even be bothered to tell the difference between these gods, so why should you care either!"

Another sad case of "we can't do that, the can of Pringles is almost empty."
(for everyone who hasn't heard my theory yet, I believe that the budget for TOB consisted of a can of Pringles, and the game had to be plotted and the content written before it ran out.)

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In pnp AD&D, gods will stop granting powers (spells) to priests that go against their ideals

Which raises the Vicky question once again.

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I don't think it's unreasonable at all for Eilistraee to become more personally involved.

By "penpal" I was specifically thinking of the leaflord interjection, where he is in effect passing a note to Solaufein on his way to do something of near-cosmic importance. This is either "awesome!" or "incongruous" depending on your point of view.

But I really meant no offense.                    



[!--EDIT|jcompton|Aug 2 2002, 06:17 AM--]
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Lump

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2002, 06:59:22 AM »
After some translation help from Doune, I try to "come back a bit" in the discussion about the baby and the problem with the gender-neutral.

SPOILER
....
....

At the end its writen: The charakter and Sola will have a baby. Westley wrote the text like this that its not really clear if the charakter is a man or a women. So you can imagine youself .....

If you have a female character: She was pregnant.
If you play a male character: The baby was a present from Eili.

So there is not problem to have a baby in the end of the game.
Is it right?

.....
.....
SPOILER


If the character would have a baby at the end of SoA: So you have 2 possibilitys: You want a baby or not.
After you have made you're descision TO HAVE a baby you speak with Sola. And the programm recognizes if you play a man or a women.

- So if you want to have a baby and you are a women the first dialouge with Sola is: "I dear, Im pregnant."
- If you play a man you say to Sola: "Hi dear. Eili made us "a present"."

All dialouges - who comes later - can be the same for man and women characters. Only the first dialouge depends if the character is male or female. So this possibility means not really a lot more work for Westley.

Its the same think like at the end - just a bit earlier. I really dont see a problem here.
Okay, I see a problem ... there will be some people who dont like the idea, that 2 man have a baby "together". I like the 2man-and-a-baby-idea.

I want a baby *cry* and I want more Romantic Dialouges with my "Sweety-Sola" *cry*  :blink:

Okay, lets become serious again:
About the gods: I was really a bit angry that the gods in the "normal" BG2 and TOB where not more involved. My character was on the way to become a new god and the other gods dit not even talk with me  :angry:
Oh no, the crazy Cyric speak a bit with me, great :angry:
I played a lot P&P Adventures - and if there where historys like this, the gods normaly involved themselves "like hell".
But ..... thats only my view. On the other side: My boy-friend for example hate every involvmend of gods in the P&P Adventures.


By the way: Nothing against Eili but ...... *grmpfel* she could reakt to me, too. A bit. To say the truth: Im jalous like hell with my character. What I always wanted to say to Miss Godness Eili: Take you're fingers away, lady. This is MY Sola :angry: . I swear: If I become a godness the first think I do: Killing this *grmpfegglll*
If shes paying so mutch attention to MY Sola ... she should pay a bit attention to be, too.                    



[!--EDIT|Lump|Aug 2 2002, 02:07 PM--]

Artemidore

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2002, 08:42:03 AM »
I agree with lump!
It would be good to know a little bit more about Eilistrae's point of view. Would she send a baby to sola and the PC if the PC is evil? what does she think about all the murders, the slaughters... of the children of bhaal? I speak only in my name, but if I were a good elven Goddes, I would not be pleased to see one of my most trustful (and powerful) servant falling in love with a child of bhaal! what if the PC becomes the new god of murder? Ok, I have to admit that I'm not an Elven Goddess, so I don't really know. Just let her pay a bit attention, as lump says.                    

Aubrey

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2002, 03:15:46 PM »
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QUOTE (jcompton @ Jul 26 2002, 07:48 PM)
Of course, we know and accept that the "Weimerfein" is nearly omnipotent and Eilistraee is his penpal,  

Jason, I sense some lingering resentment here.

 


Actually, really, no, I was just focusing in on the narrow "never" aspect of the topic that was started waaaaaaaaaaaaaay at the top of this thread and obviously brought too much jibing abrasion to the table.


If memory serves right, Jason was answering to a post of mine. (I'm too lazy to go back right this moment [_[ )

The fact remains: Solaufein is a dominating figure and, if what I've read about the end of ToB stands true (because I am still playing SoA), then Eilistraee leads his steps. In this case it means that we are all under Eilistraee's guidance and subjects to her decisions.

On the children subject, it's the first time I will argue openly and say I object. I disagree whether is a gift from Eilistraee or Weimer's decision to have a "neutral" pc get pregnant. To those who support so fervently the idea of pregrancy and children, if I may, I will give again the advice to re-read Solaufein's lines. If, for some reason, you can't, I would be gladly to offer my services:

" I ask because most adventurers eventually settle down to raise a family. Many initially struggle for glory and honor, only to belatedly discover that lasting happiness was never far from home and hearth. I am not such a person. Any child of mine would be slaughtered wholesale by my fellow Drow and probably treated little better by prejudiced surfacers. I cannot find it within myself to bring a child into a society where that sort of reaction awaits."

"I do not believe the time is yet right to [sic] for me to guide a child through this world. I would rather spare children of the pain I have felt.

Having in mind Solaufein's views on children, how can we support the idea of him having a child? And why, Westley, a character like Solaufein, and as he was originally designed, talks about children when his interests seem to be elsewhere? Tell me, and I will listen carefully.  :)

@Westley --

At some point, Lump (I think) maintained the idea of Solaufein and pc have children so as they could have something to discuss about. (Lump, if I have understood wrongly I apologise and, please, feel free to correct me).  From Lump's suggestion I will single out the fact that Solaufein and pc seem to be completely uninvolved in romantic scenes. And if you ask me, I would agree with Lump.  Apart from some short intervals, not all of them that powerful, such as [the hightlights mine]:

1. "Thank you for sharing your opinions with me, pc. The more we talk the more I feel like I understand you. And I respect what I see. (After their third discussion, if I am right; and which marks the period of Solaufein's "exploration" of pc.

2."Oh, I'm so glad you have returned to me. I never expected to lose you --not like that. [...] Your disappearance scared me more than anything else we have encountered so far, pc. Since you are already in my thoughts, I would much prefer to keep you in my sight as well." (After the fight with Archryssa. First time we hear Solaufein admitting that, yes, he is not indifferent to pc.)

3."Here, take my hand. Was that written in the stars? Imagine that the gods grant you a prophecy: I’ll put down your hand in two minutes. But now imagine that we … just refuse." (He's discussing one more  philosophical issue, but this time he dares a physical contact. Does he uses the conversation as a pretext for doing this? You will surely argue, he doesn't, and I'll argue that he probably does.)

4 & 5. a) The dance scene & the one after he is given Eilistraee's gift: The most powerful of all and the only moments where romance turns out to be a romance, at last!

As for the night they sleep together, well, in my humble opinion, it's unromantic. Reciting a poem or, saying he took a "taste of heaven" next morning, is very sweet of him. But, then, he says, "Thank you for sharing yourself with me", which proves his respect for pc -- stated many conversations back-- but it give us neither the feeling nor the conviction of the intimancy achieved after their intercourse. (And allow me to leave out the dialogue in the Tree of Life. Of course, it's wonderful!)

What I'm trying to say: there is an obvious lack of romantic dialogues in general, and especially from there on, as if the long journey's destination was to sleep together. Do I believe it? No, I don't. I rather search for signs of romanticism which is supposed to be inside a poetry-lover like Solaufein.

In literary terms, Solaufein seems an extraordinary character to me, but  unfinished. One moment (after the intercouse) calls pc "my love", and in their next conversation "my friend". Instead of going forwards we are going backwards. And I mean in ways of expression --I don't doubt their bonds of companionship and friendship apart from being lovers. I should admit, however, that a character's interpretation is a completely personal matter, and therefore we are all right.  

I know you are sick of me, so I end here. This consists a part of a commentary I'm writting on Solaufein's romance. When finished I will either post it here or send it to you for archaelogical purposes.  ;)

Cheers                    

Artemidore

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2002, 05:19:50 PM »
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In literary terms, Solaufein seems an extraordinary character to me, but  unfinished. One moment (after the intercouse) calls pc "my love", and in their next conversation "my friend". Instead of going forwards we are going backwards.
                   Yes, that's right, this is something strange about Solaufein, he doesn't react the way you expect him to react. No sign of physical attraction (except for a short night). He is far more interested in your opinions upon existential matters than in your appearance. You may be a tough (male) barbarian or a pretty sorceress, no differnce, he will pay attention only to what you say. And you're right, there's a lot of respect in his words, but not a lot of intimacy.
It's not Kelsey, it's not Anomen, it's just Solaufein, this strange dark Elf, and maybe it is the reason why he is just so... well attractive, I guess. He behaves almost the same way after the moonlight dance as before, and it may be a pity, and it may be good. Hard to imagine that he and the pc are close enough to have a family (that's only my opinion, of course). But for me, there was no problem,I mean: Solaufein is supposed to be someone strange, someone who didn't got used to the customs of the surface, and his last love story was... not a really happy experience. So, I did not think that the romance was unfinished. It's just that Solaufein doesn't behave the same way as the other romancing characters, ie no intimacy, but maybe he doesn't know how to do so. It is surely quite difficult for a drow to romance with someone, we have to imagine that Solaufein spent a few centuries of his life in a society where love was not conceivable. He's learning, and he is talented, isn't he?


Aubrey, for my part, I'm not sick of you nor of your comments, and I don't think anyone should be!                    

Offline weimer

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2002, 05:52:25 PM »
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The fact remains: Solaufein is a dominating figure and, if what I've read about the end of ToB stands true (because I am still playing SoA), then Eilistraee leads his steps. In this case it means that we are all under Eilistraee's guidance and subjects to her decisions.

Boo guides Minsc's steps, but if you have Minsc in ToB I would hardly say that we're all subject to Boo's decisions. Solaufein is a major player, but [CHARNAME] still makes all of the important decisions.

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On the children subject, it's the first time I will argue openly and say I object. I disagree whether is a gift from Eilistraee or Weimer's decision to have a "neutral" pc get pregnant. To those who support so fervently the idea of pregrancy and children, if I may, I will give again the advice to re-read Solaufein's lines. If, for some reason, you can't, I would be gladly to offer my services:

" I ask because most adventurers eventually settle down to raise a family. Many initially struggle for glory and honor, only to belatedly discover that lasting happiness was never far from home and hearth. I am not such a person. Any child of mine would be slaughtered wholesale by my fellow Drow and probably treated little better by prejudiced surfacers. I cannot find it within myself to bring a child into a society where that sort of reaction awaits."

"I do not believe the time is yet right to [sic] for me to guide a child through this world. I would rather spare children of the pain I have felt.

Having in mind Solaufein's views on children, how can we support the idea of
him having a child?

I agree with you: we cannot as long as that statement is true. However, Solaufein is a dynamic figure who changes over time. The Epilogue in ToB makes it clear that much time has passed before the child appears. In that amount of time some of the premises have changed: he no longer leads a life of constant danger, for example. He also has reason to believe that the child will not be instantly slain: someone with greater wisdom and sight (the big E) has said that now is not a bad time.

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And why, Westley, a character like Solaufein, and as he was originally designed, talks about children when his interests seem to be elsewhere? Tell me, and I will listen carefully.  :)

Solaufein is not limited to three interests. Children aren't his overriding concern, but neither are golems. He talks about quite a bit. The real life answer is that Solaufein talks about children because loosely a dozen people asked me to add something where he talks about children. Even if he doesn't want them, [CHARNAME] might and children can be a source of friction and/or joy in real-world relationships. They are important enough to talk about even if you don't want them at the time (as Sola makes clear).

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At some point, Lump (I think) maintained the idea of Solaufein and pc have children so as they could have something to discuss about.

Solaufein would never suggest that he and [CHARNAME] have a child just to have a conversation topic. Perhaps you are misremembering the quote?

However, Solaufein is happy to *talk about* having children.

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3."Here, take my hand. Was that written in the stars? Imagine that the gods grant you a prophecy: I’ll put down your hand in two minutes. But now imagine that we … just refuse." (He's discussing one more  philosophical issue, but this time he dares a physical contact. Does he uses the conversation as a pretext for doing this? You will surely argue, he doesn't, and I'll argue that he probably does.)

Compton thinks he's just putting the moves on [CHARNAME]. The conversation is not a *complete* pretext. He is honeslty interested in having the conversation. However, he's also happy to hold the hand. He might have picked another analogy (instead of hand-holding) -- but that wouldn't have been as much fun for him.

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4 & 5. a) The dance scene & the one after he is given Eilistraee's gift: The most powerful of all and the only moments where romance turns out to be a romance, at last!

I'm afraid that I have a different conception of what "romance" means. You don't need to dance or make love for something to be romantic. In my opinion.

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morning, is very sweet of him. But, then, he says, "Thank you for sharing yourself with me", which proves his respect for pc -- stated many conversations back-- but it give us neither the feeling nor the conviction of

Again, this is a difference of opinion. In  my experience, "stable respect" is much more important for a long-term relationship (= conviction) than "fleeting infatuation".  

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What I'm trying to say: there is an obvious lack of romantic dialogues in general, and especially from there on, as if the long journey's destination was to sleep together. Do I believe it? No, I don't. I rather search for signs of romanticism which is supposed to be inside a poetry-lover like Solaufein.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to suggest some romantic lines or dialogues? I'll be happy to add them if I think they're IC for Sola.

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In literary terms, Solaufein seems an extraordinary character to me, but  unfinished.

This is true.

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One moment (after the intercouse) calls pc "my love", and in their next conversation "my friend". Instead of going forwards we are going backwards.

Personally, I don't see "my friend" as all that much weaker than "my love". Far too often lover are not friends, and badness ensues.

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I know you are sick of me, so I end here.

On the contrary, I appreciate this sort of discussion.

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When finished I will either post it here or send it to you for archaelogical purposes.  ;)

Lovely. I can't wait.                    

Offline jcompton

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2002, 08:53:32 PM »

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Compton thinks he's just putting the moves on [CHARNAME]. The conversation is not a *complete* pretext.

Heh, no. I would vote that he is actually deriving most of the pleasure from that conversation from the discussion.

I, with all smiling enthusiasm, portray Solaufein as putting on a deep Lou Rawls delivery and saying "Hold my hand, baby. Allllll riiiiiiiiiiiight" because... well, remember why I was combing through the SolaTalks. I was trying to find something that would tell an (avid) outside observer that this is "really a romance." And it took until that moment. So it became something to pounce on because it is a moment so much different than everything that came before... they've certainly had deep conversations already, this one is not especially different in THAT regard, but the hand-holding definitely sets it apart.                    



[!--EDIT|jcompton|Aug 3 2002, 03:53 AM--]
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline jcompton

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2002, 09:07:55 PM »
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As for the night they sleep together, well, in my humble opinion, it's unromantic. Reciting a poem or, saying he took a "taste of heaven" next morning, is very sweet of him. But, then, he says, "Thank you for sharing yourself with me", which proves his respect for pc -- stated many conversations back-- but it give us neither the feeling nor the conviction of the intimancy achieved after their intercourse.
                   I thought it was a good bit, actually.                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Kiki

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2002, 01:26:37 AM »
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You may be a tough (male) barbarian or a pretty sorceress, no differnce, he will pay attention only to what you say.
I don't think this is a bad thing. He sees your inner beauty and all that, and doesn't mind if you're a half-orc or a gnome. (It surprises me that the Bio romances have race restrictions that aren't based on character background reasons, with the partial exception of Viconia--nice to see that someone's fantasy vision does include race- and gender-blind romance.)

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 What I'm trying to say: there is an obvious lack of romantic dialogues in general, and especially from there on, as if the long journey's destination was to sleep together.

If you go through all the Bio romances, I suspect that you'd find very little in the way of actual romantic dialogue until you're almost at the payoff pitch. I remember feeling a bit taken aback when Anomen started talking about wanting to show me his passion, when all that had happened previously was some pretty compliments about dark flames and red flowers. Not that we can't aspire for more from Sola than the two-Pringles-cans romances (I'm sure they had a bigger budget for SoA). Perhaps there could be a few more dialogues along the lines of "Walk beside me beneath the leaves" before the hand-holding, to help build the impression of a growing romantic interest.

I am somewhat dissatisfied with the Bio and Solaufein romances because after you do get to the payoff pitch, there's ... nothing. Sure, I guess some people might consider that realistic, at least if you're playing a female PC.  [_[  Jcompton's upcoming NPC banter project and the Kelsey flirt pack are very nice ways of addressing this. While I have some difficulty envisioning a "flirt" pack for Solaufein--he just doesn't seem like the type to buy the PC a beer, or whatever--maybe he could have a poetry pack.  Some of the Shakespearean "Dark Lady" sonnets might be appropriate?

Now that I think about it, that might be a cute line--enter the tavern in Saradush, and while Anomen or Keldorn is smacking down the soldiers harassing the barmaid, Solaufein could buy a glass of firewine for his lover and casually mention how nice it will be to finally have a decent bed. Is this idea already used by another romance? I haven't played all of them.

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It would be good to know a little bit more about Eilistrae's point of view. Would she send a baby to sola and the PC if the PC is evil? what does she think about all the murders, the slaughters... of the children of bhaal?
I like this idea. Perhaps different epilogues based on the alignment of either the PC or Solaufein?
                     

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2002, 02:08:27 AM »
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If you go through all the Bio romances, I suspect that you'd find very little in the way of actual romantic dialogue until you're almost at the payoff pitch. I remember feeling a bit taken aback when Anomen started talking about wanting to show me his passion, when all that had happened previously was some pretty compliments about dark flames and red flowers.

Anomen's romance is the shortest in the game, and there's a relatively large number of other things being covered (Order, family, etc.) so to a certain extent this isn't TOO surprising. Plus, I think that they wanted to be careful not to make it a question of "okay, let's get the PC and the NPC kissing by LT 8, feeling each other up by 16, changing in front of each other by 30 and in the sack at 44"... but the odd result is that, yeah, we go from mostly implied affections to "let's do it."

However, the ladies deal with issues of relationship and (in Viconia's case) physicality vs. romance at an earlier point. Jaheira tells you about having a dream in which her dead husband more or less hands her off to you. Whatever you think that says about Jaheira, I found it touching and, yeah, romantic.

And this is an area where a more full audiovisual experience helps the player feel like more is going on than what we read on the screen. Jaheira spends a lot of time crabbing, for instance, but I can hear the softness in her voice (at times), and the mood music tells me... well, the mood, even if she's grouchy about something. Ditto Viconia, Aerie, Anomen. Call it a crutch if you like, but I think it's one of the reasons the BG2 romances worked so well for so many people.

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Not that we can't aspire for more from Sola than the two-Pringles-cans romances (I'm sure they had a bigger budget for SoA).

No doubt.

                   
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Kiki

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« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2002, 02:28:45 AM »
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Jaheira tells you about having a dream in which her dead husband more or less hands her off to you. Whatever you think that says about Jaheira, I found it touching and, yeah, romantic.
Really? I did play the Jaheira romance at least up to that point, and while I thought it was a touching dialogue, I thought it came a bit too early in the overall scheme of things.

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And this is an area where a more full audiovisual experience helps the player feel like more is going on than what we read on the screen. Jaheira spends a lot of time crabbing, for instance, but I can hear the softness in her voice (at times), and the mood music tells me... well, the mood, even if she's grouchy about something.

I agree that the music makes a big difference. I didn't even know there was romance music till TOB, when I accidentally turned up the volume (the battle music was too annoying up till then).  Maybe my heart would have softened more toward Kelsey if I had gotten his romance music to play (there was just dead silence, maybe because I had v1.0.0 and something got glitched during installation).                    

Aubrey

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2002, 08:10:26 AM »
@ Weimer --

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Boo guides Minsc's steps, but if you have Minsc in ToB I would hardly say that we're all subject to Boo's decisions.

Yes, but Minsc has an intelligence of 8 and wisdom of 6, whereas Solaufein’s is 18 and 10 respectively. Maybe intelligence is what makes a difference between them?

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Solaufein is a major player, but still makes all of the important decisions.

Would I be correct then to assume that Solaufein asked Eilistraee to send him the child?

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However, Solaufein is a dynamic figure who changes over time.

A “dynamic” figure, as you say, might seem to change over time, and change is what we think it be the case, but actually this is an illusionary interpretation [from our part] of a character and the events involving him/her. (Try to remember that we don’t talk about processes and systems in technical terms here, but about a man’s nature.) Even if these changes are foreseen and we anticipate them, usually they are rather minor than major ones. Why? Because in a Solaufein-like character, these changes consist part of his capacity for being improved and reaching the state of mental and emotional stability he longed for –for better or worse. It’s not about evolvement through time and “research”. It's about him finding the way to go where he always wanted to.


Side notes on Solaufein’s character: Do you recall my very first comments on Solaufein’s character? “He’s a cosmos”, I had said then, using the word in Whitmanean manner. What does this mean when applied to Solaufein? He is made of many things, everything finding its own place in him. Yet, and although he gives the (false) impression of him being shaped and evolved into something more final during his travels with pc, he is already a “fixed” character when we meet him.

“Right now my mind is filled with images of the malice of my misguided people. Perhaps I am overlooking some redeeming virtue of my home… something that will only become apparent after I leave. Perhaps not. Still, I am resolved. Would you allow me to accompany you?”

Despite his doubts whether a redeeming virtue of his home does really exist or not, Solaufein is “resolved” to leave. For me it was crystal-clear that I had to do with the most strong-willed character ever met in Faerum. I will support my argument by calling you also to think of his life in Ust Natha: he remained there even after his relationship with Phaere had ended. He didn’t share other drows’ creeds on brutality and use of force, and he much preferred spending his time by reading poetry and philosophy and honouring Eilistraee. One comes to question why, then, he didn’t leave Ust Natha, and some might feel the urge to fill the blanks: “Because Solaufein is not so strong-willed, as you think. He was afraid of traveling to an unknown world.” Possibly. But for me it was his love for Phaere that kept him there. Remember: Later he will admit to pc that Phaere was his first love, and we all know (I presume) what first love means, and what a traumatic experience could mean to lose someone so beloved. The fact that he leaves right after Phaere’s death may be a proof of my theory standing closer to the truth. And he might had already left before her death, if Phaere’s order given to pc, to kill Solaufein that is, hadn’t hurt him so deeply. He replicated dragon’s eggs as part of a plan where Phaere would be killed by his own hands. Another evidence of determination and strong will. And, no, I wouldn’t agree with someone claiming revenge. (Later, of course, he feels a kind of remorse for what he has done, but this is another story.)

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The Epilogue in ToB makes it clear that much time has passed before the child appears. In that amount of time some of the premises have changed: he no longer leads a life of constant danger, for example. He also has reason to believe that the child will not be instantly slain: someone with greater wisdom and sight (the big E) has said that now is not a bad time.

We are not talking about someone who, round his mid 20s, discovers his earlier beliefs to be false because life is proven different than he had though, or because the world around him/her has changed dramatically. We are talking about a mature, sensitive and logical, and intellectual person who seems rather sceptical and reserve to the world that surrounds him. But even if we accept the world has changed, and there is the presupposition for him to raise a family, please listen to him:

I ask because most adventurers eventually settle down to raise a family. Many initially struggle for glory and honor, only to belatedly discover that lasting happiness was never far from home and hearth. I am not such a person.

I am not such a person. Whether you –as his creator—are aware of it, or not, Solaufein’s views on children and settlement are constructed round this very statement. It is not something that time can change; it is not even related to the trouble times over Faerum. It is a statement revealing and defining something that holds less relativity to the world around: an aspect of his character: he simply is not "such a person".

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Solaufein would never suggest that he and have a child just to have a conversation topic. Perhaps you are misremembering the quote?

I didn’t say Solaufein suggested, I said Lump suggested the children issue in order we, the players, be given more dialogues, which would be relative to the child issue.  :)

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Compton thinks he's just putting the moves on . The conversation is not a *complete* pretext.

It’s not just Jason’s Kelsey who thinks it so; it had also been one of my own suspicions during my first time playing the game, when I had Tashia in my party instead of Kelsey. Either way, it’s an opportunity to have the romance moved a bit forward.

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I'm afraid that I have a different conception of what "romance" means. You don't need to dance or make love for something to be romantic. In my opinion.

Romantic can have various senses: The dance is as a romantic event in the same way Solaufein’s words are after receiving Eilistraee’s gift: these two scenes are so beautiful that strongly affect our feelings. However, I didn’t include the making of love amongst them, did I?

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Again, this is a difference of opinion. In my experience, "stable respect" is much more important for a long-term relationship (= conviction) than "fleeting infatuation".

By all means! I wouldn’t agree more. BUT you are not a novel writer, and you don’t have the luxury of describing Solaufein’s feelings in one or two long paragraphs. It’s a game, and you have to rely only on his dialogues in order to convince us that Solaufein and pc have reached a certain state of intimacy. Sometimes making love can mean …making love.

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Perhaps you would be so kind as to suggest some romantic lines or dialogues? I'll be happy to add them if I think they're IC for Sola.

I’m not sure I could. Solaufein is your own creation, realised by your creeds, your ideas, your perception of the world and relationships, meaning that no one but you can do it. I can tell you, however, that if you are going to create some new conversations on the death issue, you could consider also the possibility of questioning whether one can really feel another person’s pain. Think of the cliché people use when they see a beloved one suffering or dying: “I wish I could die in his/her place” or, “If only I could take his/her pains and make them mine.” We wish we could, but we can’t. Each one is on his/her own. This makes us think that, from the moment we are born to the moment we die, our passage to life is just a personal and lonely experience. We are alone, and the fact that it was neither our choice nor can we interfere and change it consists a tragic element in our life. Ironically, it is this loneliness of our existence lying deep inside that verifies the uniqueness each one of us.


P.S. All these I'm writing on Solaufein's character are certainly my personal opinion and they don't form any kind of universal truth. Thanks for reading.


Cheers

                   

Aubrey

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2002, 08:25:11 AM »
@Artemidore --

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Aubrey, for my part, I'm not sick of you nor of your comments, and I don't think anyone should be!

Thanks for the vote of confidence. You are too kind and sweet to say so.

@ Kiki --

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If you go through all the Bio romances, I suspect that you'd find very little in the way of actual romantic dialogue until you're almost at the payoff pitch.

I fully agree with you. But why this has to happen, once more, with  Solaufein? He differs in some exceptional ways. So, he should make the exception to the rule.

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he just doesn't seem like the type to buy the PC a beer, or whatever

He is that type, but in a different way. Kelsey would be a bit more attentive and would ask before going for the beer. Solaufein, as a more introvert type, wouldn't ask, he would just go. Introvert types are always more perceptive than the rest of us. I suppose this has to do with the time they spend with themselves. :)


Cheers                    

Offline jcompton

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2002, 09:44:50 AM »
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Really? I did play the Jaheira romance at least up to that point, and while I thought it was a touching dialogue, I thought it came a bit too early in the overall scheme of things.

A common complaint.

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I agree that the music makes a big difference. I didn't even know there was romance music till TOB, when I accidentally turned up the volume (the battle music was too annoying up till then).  Maybe my heart would have softened more toward Kelsey if I had gotten his romance music to play (there was just dead silence, maybe because I had v1.0.0 and something got glitched during installation).

Or your Ambient Sounds slider was cranked way down, too. Kelsey's theme plays as an ambient rather than a music track for reasons of size. (it would have made a bigger download if we distributed it as a music track, because those have to be .acm files, we couldn't have done the lossy compression shuffle.)

                   
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Caswallon

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2002, 12:18:28 PM »
Some thoughts of mine, somewhat incoherent.:)

Regarding the baby:
It's imho already almost unbelievable in the case of Aerie to travel around with Charname and to slay dragons while highly pregnant, and to kill demons and a demigoddess some hours after giving birth.
Even more unbelievable would be Charname having a baby. And least of all it'd be the wish of Solaufein - it would, after all, be highly irresponsible.
Then, the baby thing is used up by the Aerie romance. Imho it doesn't get better by repeating it.
Maybe Weimer could correct me, but with some poetic licence it's imho possible to interpret the sentence from the epilogue The night that the temple was dedicated, Eilistraee herself sent down a daughter to them as Charname (female) becoming pregnant and giving birth to a child with E.'s blessing. I'd leave it that way.

Regarding "romantic" and "philosophical" dialogue:
Imho it's part of Solaufein's nature to be somewhat "unromantic". He is a Drow, and his experience of being in love is not the same as we surfacers think it should be. Viconia is an example of this - she has similar problems to accept and express her emotions, but she retreats or insults Charname, while Solaufein tries to make shift with poems. Solaufein's mind is working very rationally and logically; for him it's more important to *know* and *understand* what's going on with him and Charname than to have a nice feeling. Talking about philosophical questions is his main way of building a relationship. He *can* be emotional, but that's always when the beauty of nature is involved.
Hm. The essence of this paragraph? Don't know exactly.:)

regards,
Cas                    

Aubrey

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Romance Conclusion
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2002, 03:29:46 PM »
@Caswallon --

You make perfect sense to me;  :) I know what you are talking about, and I agree, though my image of Solaufein is slightly different. But, generally, yes. I agree.


Cheers                    

 

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