Author Topic: Romance Conclusion  (Read 13245 times)

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2002, 06:49:21 PM »
Your English is not bad, but I think you might be using the word "hot" when you mean "heated"...

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But you see - I had a "hot" discussion with a girl from switzerland.

I think you mean "heated." You were arguing, right? That would be a heated discussion. A "hot" discussion would be if she told you how sexy she thought Kelsey was, which would be okay. :)                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Kish

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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2002, 07:07:20 PM »
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You worry about, that the Solaufein Mod could make the impression it is only for women (with the possibility of having a baby)? Thats really an ..... what impression the people have when they play the normal BG2 & TOB Romances without Mods?

They probably have the impression the official Bioware romances are designed to be exclusively heterosexual...because they are.

And the Solaufein romance, on the other hand, is designed to be gender-neutral.  What's your point?                    

Kish

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« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2002, 07:13:31 PM »
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You said: "The baby in that one Solaufein epilogue results from divine intervention."
Hmmm, so its all right if this female godness "surprise" Solaufein with a baby - but its not all right if my charakter do this???

: blink:

Are you seriously suggesting that Elistraee gave birth to the child in that epilogue?  Or, if not, what are you getting at?  How is Elistraee's gender even slightly relevant?


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And even if this impression "happend" - you dont want that some people feel worse - cause they have the impression the romance is only for women. BUT - what about the people who feel worse cause THERE ARE NO possibility to have a baby???
This argument is a bit ... in Germany you say: "An den Haaren herbeigezogen." - Searching for arguments.
I'm afraid I don't understand this.  Feel free to rephrase, if you want me to understand.                    

Kish

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« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2002, 07:15:23 PM »
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mad.gif
YES, I feel attacked when I read something like this.

mad.gif
The german translation is GOOD!! Its HARD work to translate something like this and the german transaltor (Falk??) have done a great work.
But you pointed out a huge difference between the German version and the original: The German version is gender-specific.  I was overly harsh in calling it "much less than perfect."  I'll accept your word that it's as close to perfect as it can get...but it's still, inevitably, flawed, or you wouldn't have been able to point out the female terminology, because there would be none.                    

Lump

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« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2002, 08:03:01 PM »
@ jcomton:

You said:
“I think you mean "heated." You were arguing, right? That would be a heated discussion. A "hot" discussion would be if she told you how sexy she thought Kelsey was, which would be okay.”


*Laugh* Hihihihihihi, that’s funny *rofl*

All right: I had a “heated” discussion about Kelsey AND she was :D hot on Kelsey – like some other people I know, too. :D
Especially with MY Kelsey – picture.:D

I suppose you are such an other “grazy” :) Kelsey fan. :) Im surroundet :)

:( Cant find the homepage anymore – but I upload my Kelsey Picture for a few days here as my avatar picture. So look on you’re left for my Kelsey picture. If you want it, send me a mail – I send it to you (large and small) – no problem.




@Kish


No, no ,no :) hehehehehe, :) – I unterstand it like this: The godness gave them a sort of “blessing” to have a child.
My question: Dit Mrs. (or Miss) Eilistraee (however) asked Solaufein before?? Can't imagine.


Language:
Cause german is a nother lanuage like english – not only about the words. There are BIG diffrences.

A other lanuage example:YOU!
I mean the “you”. In english you say just: You. But in german you can say …. Ähhhh …. “sie”. Means: To my friends I say: you – but to somebody strange I say “sie” and to a king or a godness I would talk in the 3.Person: euch: 3 posibilitys.
In german Anomen speaks in the 3.Person with me – that’s normal for an knight like him. But Solaufein is doing the same think – but somehow I don’t like it so much when he is doing it (my personal opinion :)  ) seams bit strange and impersonal when a drow warrior / mage is doing it, especially after having sex with you / my character. But better than if he would say “sie” to me. Its difficult AND HORRIBLE TO EXPLANE!! :)

Reiella said it before:
It is kinda possible to write a gender neutral german translation, the downside is that it tends to come off as a tad bit insulting to use the gender neutral pronouns, especially in such a situation.


I still don’t unterstand why you have problems with a baby now – but not at the end.
                   

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2002, 08:51:03 PM »
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I suppose you are such an other “grazy” :) Kelsey fan. :) Im surroundet :)
                   I am the craziest of all Kelsey fans, since I wrote him.                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Lump

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« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2002, 09:57:08 PM »
I know *ärgs* I have a mailling - friend, a german girl, too.
She chanced a few mails with you and she just send me a mail to "worn" me. *ärgs*

WHAT are you doing here?

*grgll* However: MY picture is still much better  :P

.... and I still prefer Solaufein.

.... have you read everything what I wrote about Kelsey? Even this with the ...animal comparison?
Dit I say it? A VERY SWEET rabbit ;-)

But, hey I have some good ideas for Kelsey  :D
Why should only Westley suffer because of me?
 B)

                   

Kish

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« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2002, 10:25:28 PM »
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I still don’t unterstand why you have problems with a baby now – but not at the end.

I don't.

If you were petitioning Westley to let Elistraee send the baby down in the middle of the Bhaalspawn war instead of after, I wouldn't object to that (except for perhaps some commentary on Elistraee joining the Aerie romance in the Criminally Irresponsible category for sending a baby into battle against Abazigal).  I object to the Solaufein romance losing its gender-neutrality--to any events that necessitate CharName having a uterus.  It is, in essence, not that I object to CharName and Solaufein having a baby, so much as that I object to CharName ever being pregnant.  I realize you're used to the German version and that "gender neutrality" in the German version is a joke, but it's quite real in the original.  Suddenly presuming that CharName is capable of becoming pregnant is not a fair assumption to make.                    

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2002, 12:13:29 AM »
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MY picture is still much better  :P

(sigh)

Do as you see fit. But that picture is of a blond warrior in armor. It really doesn't say "Kelsey the Sorcerer" to me.

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.... have you read everything what I wrote about Kelsey? Even this with the ...animal comparison?
Dit I say it? A VERY SWEET rabbit ;-)

Yes, I did. And honestly, when people don't like Kelsey, I'd much rather they simply say "I don't like Kelsey" (and maybe explain why) than say "I don't like Kelsey BUT IT'S A GREAT MOD" because that's usually the only time I hear people say it's a great mod, which makes me very very suspicious.

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But, hey I have some good ideas for Kelsey  :D
Why should only Westley suffer because of me?

The Kelsey forum is at http://forums.forgottenwars.net/index.php?board=2 ... head over when you're done here.                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Aubrey

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« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2002, 04:51:38 AM »
@jcompton --

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Do as you see fit. But that picture is of a blond warrior in armor. It really doesn't say "Kelsey the Sorcerer" to me.

Why? Because he's a warrior or, because he's a blond? ;)  :D

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And honestly, when people don't like Kelsey, I'd much rather they simply say "I don't like Kelsey" (and maybe explain why) than say "I don't like Kelsey BUT IT'S A GREAT MOD" because that's usually the only time I hear people say it's a great mod, which makes me very very suspicious.

I would agree it sounds a bit oxymoron, and you are right to feel a bit fed-up. I don't know if it could be of any comfort to you, but just think that many of us appreciate Kelsey --mod and Kelsey himself included. (He has just killed Thaxll'ssillyia, and my admiration for him is higher than ever before *sigh*). :)

Anyway. As soon as we realise that the differences between Kelsey and Solaufein are the same as those between two different individuals and their character, I believe we'll stop bubbling nonsense of the sort.


Cheers                    

Lump

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« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2002, 05:35:35 AM »
To Kelsey:

Why I said that is a good mod:
- I cant speak sooo good english - but I had the impression that the lanuage / the words you use are "good" - high quality. Not just: Hey, chick, are you pregnant? :) AND they are not "easy" - you are forced to think not only to read and click.
- Lot of dialouges
- Flirt pack is soooo a sweet idea and good made
- He seem to have a real big background story - not just a "boy with no background - coming from the wood".
-  And the dialouges are based on this story and on a person. Some people make sometimes the mistake and write dialogues just like - "Was just in my mind" - They dont care if it fit to the person. They force the person / charakter to say thinks  who just dont fit. Kelsey seem to be real!
The dialouges make the impression that the writer :D have the "background" of Kelsey always in mind. That he see Kelsey and THAN he write down the dialouges.

Same thinks at the Kelsey Mods that are very good made like at the Sola Mod. In this case they are the same.

BUT:
 
:D
Its a bit like:
A: "Hey this is the most wonderful cake I ever saw."
B: "You want a piece?"
A: "No, thanks, I dont like cakes."
B: "WHAT? But you said that its a wonderful cake.....!?!"
A: "Yes it is, I can be impressed from the colors, the composition, the art, the ideas ......"

Also I could say you enough thinks I dont like at the Solaufein Mod :P but this is more "my man".
Both of them are made so realistic that you have the impression they are real. And so - like in real live: Not every girl likes every type of man.
I love men like - NOBODYS laughing now :P - Clint Eastwood ....  :ph34r:
More this direction. Kelsey is more Bratt Pitt - I really like this actor, but he is not Clinty (he was sooooo cute when he was young) :D


PICTURE:
He is good looking (Bratt Pitt a bit :)  ), he dont have a normal chainmail (its an elven chanimail) :P and with some of them you can still cast spells.
I think a sorcerer must not always look like a monk.

We are playing at the moment weekly Fantasy Pen&Paper - I play a noble, female mage (style: byzanz, roman imperium). She have a really heavy leather armor with expansive decorations. She dont look like a mage :D in some areas of the world there its very important sometimes NOT to look like a mage / sorcerer.

But here - my second favorite for a Kelsey picture .... look on the left.

KELSEY FORUM
I was there - I asked for a possibility to have the Anomen Romance AND the Kelsey Romance at the same time. On this way I made the friendship with this sweety girl from germany (she likes both - Sola AND Kelsey).

Im not crazy - going to a forum, full with "grazy" :D Kelsey fans and just saying: Hey, I don't like Kelsey, cause ...... *ärgs*
I send you a mail :D Lot to do  :D
Nerving Jason now *hes damned* :) , convinsing Westley to make us a baby. :D





 :rolleyes:                    



[!--EDIT|Lump|Jul 30 2002, 12:54 PM--]

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2002, 09:37:37 AM »
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Because he's a warrior or, because he's a blond?

It's mostly because he's a warrior in armor. Although having accepted that Kelsey was a redhead (surprised me quite a bit when that's what I got back from Wynne) it's pretty hard to switch to thinking of him as having flyaway blond hair.

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I don't know if it could be of any comfort to you, but just think that many of us appreciate Kelsey --mod and Kelsey himself included.

Too late, I already read your post on the Kelsey forum this morning. :)

But rather than let this become too much of a runaway Kelsey shanghai kidnapping, uh, let's go back to this: Kish and I were discussing how relatively frequent divine interventions are in Weimeric storytelling, but yet Kish, you are saying that you're opposed to a uterus-possessing PC being able to take advantage of it. Why does their having a child HAVE to be Ellistraee's idea and doing? Why is it only okay for Solaufein if SHE says so?                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2002, 09:47:55 AM »
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- I cant speak sooo good english - but I had the impression that the lanuage / the words you use are "good" - high quality. Not just: Hey, chick, are you pregnant? :)

Since a lot of people have complained that Kelsey lacks passion, I have redoubled my efforts to put out a Bruce the Cockney Barfighter NPC, and lines such as that will appear frequently. :)

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Its a bit like:
A: "Hey this is the most wonderful cake I ever saw."

Yes, I understand.

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I think a sorcerer must not always look like a monk.
She dont look like a mage :D in some areas of the world there its very important sometimes NOT to look like a mage / sorcerer.

Well, that's the thing. Kelsey looks more like a businessman than anything (right down to the vest) because... thats what he is. :)

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Im not crazy - going to a forum, full with "grazy" :D Kelsey fans and just saying: Hey, I don't like Kelsey, cause ......

I think you would make it out alive. :)

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Nerving Jason now *hes damned* :)

Ummmm... I think you meant something else, not "damned", but I'm not sure what.                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

iscariot

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« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2002, 11:07:31 AM »
@Lump

well, thanks for calling me sweet girl  :)

bless, that all our tastes are difficult and yes its right... i love all my romanceable male NPCs but at the moment i really prefer Kelsey. love his humor, it makes me laugh... espeacially the sentences when my Mainchar the first time become bhaals avatar...  just for this sentences i would play the whole game  :rolleyes:

i am thinking that it is much more difficult to make a mod out of a Solaufein because his character is fixed. but Westley is doing a very very very good job
 ;)

so i will sitting here still waiting for new dialogues with Solaufein and ToB with Kelsey.

btw i read at the german BG2 Forum that Jenny is try to do a german translation for Kelsey. Maybe you will him then love as i do @ Lump  ;)

sorry for all the english mistakes :D                    

Kish

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« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2002, 11:15:10 AM »
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But rather than let this become too much of a runaway Kelsey shanghai kidnapping, uh, let's go back to this: Kish and I were discussing how relatively frequent divine interventions are in Weimeric storytelling, but yet Kish, you are saying that you're opposed to a uterus-possessing PC being able to take advantage of it. Why does their having a child HAVE to be Ellistraee's idea and doing? Why is it only okay for Solaufein if SHE says so?

I object to the Solaufein romance being altered to favor one gender.  That means I object to a female PC having any major plotlines related to the romance that a male PC can't have.  I don't know how I can make that any clearer.                    



[!--EDIT|Kish|Jul 30 2002, 06:30 PM--]

Kiki

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« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2002, 11:40:47 AM »
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Why does their having a child HAVE to be Ellistraee's idea and doing? Why is it only okay for Solaufein if SHE says so?

He might not have wanted kids to start with, but if your goddess drops a baby in your lap, you might change your attitude. You hear of real-life cases where parents are ambiguous about the impending arrival of a bundle of joy, but they're really happy about parenthood when it becomes an actuality. (Of course, you also hear about the opposite happening.)

Though I have to say that I was surprised when I read the compassionate/mortal epilogue and saw how it differed from the pragmatic/mortal one. The content of his dialogue about not wanting to have children isn't dependent on whether he's pragmatic or remorseful, so why should building a temple to E. and getting a kid dumped on him depend on being pragmatic/remorseful?                    

Aubrey

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« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2002, 01:38:30 PM »
@jcompton --

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Too late, I already read your post on the Kelsey forum this morning.

WHAT??? What did I say? Do you think it was soooo negative a comment?  :blink: I have a couple things more to tell. Just wait.


Cheers                    

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2002, 02:12:14 PM »
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Too late, I already read your post on the Kelsey forum this morning.

WHAT??? What did I say? Do you think it was soooo negative a comment?  :blink:
                   I was teasing, the timing and order I read things this morning was too good.                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Aubrey

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« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2002, 04:34:20 PM »
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I was teasing, the timing and order I read things this morning was too good.

I wish you feel the same way when you read my new post (new thread actually) tomorrow. :)

Coming back to Solaufein issue: I'm still playing a little (remember my deadlines?) and keeping notes on the new SoA interjections for my commentary to be.  Playing for a second time SoA I have to say just this: first, strong impressions are wearing off, and Weimer has to come back and do something about it.

What I mean: there is a need of good ideas for expanding the romance; otherwise there is a risk of it looking like a grand firework, and it would be such a shame.  The romance is falling down, falling down, and needs being lifted up.

I don't want to upset anyone, and I don't have a lot of time to go through this thoroughly right now, or the next two and half weeks for that matter. So consider my comment as it was meant to be: just a comment not worthy much. Maybe.  ;)


Cheers                    



[!--EDIT|Aubrey|Jul 31 2002, 01:37 AM--]

Guest

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« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2002, 06:23:57 PM »
After parsing over the thread and not reading all of it, I feel compelled to defend my translation.:D
(Discussion on page 2 of this thread, should somebody wonder...:) )

The German version is different for players with a male PC and those with a female one. From Lump's example I guess she is playing a female PC, and the dialogue takes care of this. If you are a male PC, Solaufein addresses you as a male.

In the original english BG, gender differences are solved by tags like PRO_HESHE and the like. As differences abound in other languages and tags aren't sufficient, Bioware has included a special DialogF.tlk for female dialogue in international versions. Therefore there is no need to be gender-neutral (which might be possible in theory, but would sound extremely unnatural).
Thanks to Weimer the DialogF.tlk is fully supported in WeiDU.:)

@Lump:
If you play a male PC and Solaufein addresses you as female ("meine Geliebte") nonetheless, please report that; that shouldn't be so.

regards, Cas
(Falk Swoboda)                    

Caswallon

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« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2002, 06:27:01 PM »
Argh, that post above was mine (failure to log in ;)  ).
And "parsing" should read "glancing".

Cas                    



[!--EDIT|Caswallon|Jul 31 2002, 03:00 AM--]

Kish

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« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2002, 09:47:26 PM »
Neat.  Very well done.  I apologize (though in my defense, I will point out that I was going on the information I was given), and I'm glad you maintained the gender-neutrality.                    



[!--EDIT|Kish|Jul 31 2002, 05:35 AM--]

Caswallon

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« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2002, 03:07:04 AM »
No problem.

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though in my defense, I will point out that I was going on the information I was given
I noticed; partly I also tried to clarify the information you were given.:)

Cas                    

Offline weimer

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« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2002, 11:04:48 PM »
Quote
Of course, we know and accept that the "Weimerfein" is nearly omnipotent and Eilistraee is his penpal,
Jason, I sense some lingering resentment here.

Solaufein is quite powerful .... but at 4M XP, so it everyone. Even the otherwise-moderate Kelsey becomes a destructive powerhouse at ToB levels. Heck, Aerie can do some serious damage. "Nearly omnipotent" seems a bit of a stretch.

As for the penpal bit ... that's a personal preference and my interpretation of what it would be like to like in a polytheistic fantasy world where multiple gods clearly existed and granted miracles (spells) and visitations (avatars). Even Elizabeth Moon's _Deed_ features some DI by Gird and the High Lord for the protagonists.

I think Bioware really dropped the ball with respect to priests. They should have more personal relationships with their patrons. A perfect example of this is the holy symbol thing in ToB -- it would have taken 2 minutes to special case in "Shar" and "Baervan" and whatnot as Holy Symbols for Vic and Aerie. Instead they get Talos and Lathander -- what were they smoking? The clear message from the game designers is "we can't even be bothered to tell the difference between these gods, so why should you care either!"

In pnp AD&D, gods will stop granting powers (spells) to priests that go against their ideals and may even grant special protections or boons to non-priests.

Well, Solaufein tries to be different from the normal BGII mode where gods are just anonymous priest-fuel-cells. We're talking about realm-shattering events here (at least in ToB) and the possible birth of a new god of murder. I don't think it's unreasonable at all for Eilistraee to become more personally involved.                    

Offline weimer

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« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2002, 11:06:58 PM »
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If you were petitioning Westley to let Elistraee send the baby down in the middle of the Bhaalspawn war instead of after, I wouldn't object to that (except for perhaps some commentary on Elistraee joining the Aerie romance in the Criminally Irresponsible category for sending a baby into battle against Abazigal).  I object to the Solaufein romance losing its gender-neutrality--to any events that necessitate CharName having a uterus.  It is, in essence, not that I object to CharName and Solaufein having a baby, so much as that I object to CharName ever being pregnant.  I realize you're used to the German version and that "gender neutrality" in the German version is a joke, but it's quite real in the original.  Suddenly presuming that CharName is capable of becoming pregnant is not a fair assumption to make.
In an interesting surprise move, I basically agree with Kish here. I am unlikely to write any romance material that "requires" that the PC have a certain gender. So you can be gifted with a child in some unspecified manner (or whatever), but actually becoming pregnant (or, more accuratley, having that pregnancy mentioned in any of the Solaufein romance text) is unlikely as things stand.                    

 

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