Author Topic: "Gay" as an insult  (Read 10715 times)

Offline arithar

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"Gay" as an insult
« on: May 04, 2004, 08:59:40 AM »
I recently got this game (for $8 mind you) and am steadily working my way through it. Since we're discussing PST, I thought it appropriate to discuss NWN as well. I like it (the part I've played so far). THere are several things I hate about it.
1) Can't see my "henchman"'s inventory.
2) 3d is gay!
3) 3d is gay!!

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2004, 10:27:55 AM »
I take it by "gay" you mean "bad"? If so, why? There's nothing wrong with being gay; if it's who you are, then it's who you are. Anyway:

Bad 3D = bad
Good 3D = better than anything 2D could achieve in its wildest dreams

NWN = bad 3D + bad gamepay + bad storyline + extremely limited party NPCs = rubbish

BTW, what most people seem to forget is that the creatures and areas in the IE games (and indeed many other 2D games) started out life as 3D, and then got converted to 2D. So if you like the IE graphics, 3D clearly isn't "gay".
« Last Edit: May 04, 2004, 10:35:23 AM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Kish

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2004, 11:56:37 AM »
I take it by "gay" you mean "bad"? If so, why?
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Offline jester

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2004, 02:06:16 PM »
I have yet to be impressed by a realtime rendered game in contrast to a prerendered. I hate FPS (as an example) with a passion, but as soon as all the objects react to explosions, I will bow down to the programmers and still despise the games. :) Sim is absolutely right about the failed marketing gag behind NWN. I will only pick up a copy, if domi announces her finished mod. :)

@ gay: Arithar may be older than 45, because my English teacher in grammar school remembered that he had been thaught that gay means merry. At least in Britain. Hence this was a very pro 3d statement.
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Offline neriana

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2004, 03:14:18 PM »
Lush, evocative graphics are good. 3D and 2D games can both accomplish this. I don't think NWN's OC did, but I'm more impressed with SoU. Still, when I compare its graphics with, say, the Temple of Lathander in BG2, I am less impressed. Maybe it's easier to make the kind of illustrative, detailed graphics I like in 2D.

By the way, using "gay" as an insult is like using "brunette" as an insult. But worse.
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2004, 08:22:00 AM »
Anyone seen Bioware's current in-progress RPG, Jade Empires? It looks simply stunning - especially considering they're limited to the X-Box's now somewhat out-of-date hardware ;).
Along with games that rely on the modding community to bring their games up to par "sucking", companies that build a PC fan base and swith to another platform "suck" MORE!

@ 'gay' - Ah yes, even my 14 year old nephew doesn't use that tired piece of slang anymore.  :-X
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Offline Quitch

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2004, 09:55:23 AM »
I think everyone needs to get over themselves here.  Gay is sometimes used in that context, like it or not, and large amounts of patronising "yes, I'm feeling happy thank you" isn't going to change anything.
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Offline Alarielle

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2004, 09:56:30 AM »
no, but thankfully where I live it's been replaced with 'pants'
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Offline Kish

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2004, 10:33:03 AM »
I think everyone needs to get over themselves here.  Gay is sometimes used in that context, like it or not, and large amounts of patronising "yes, I'm feeling happy thank you" isn't going to change anything.
That's moronic.  It's abundantly obvious that people are more likely to use "gay" to mean "stupid" without thinking about it if no one ever points out that this is inappropriate.
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Offline Quitch

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2004, 10:36:04 AM »
Why would it be inappropriate?  The meaning of each word is extremely fluid and varies from year to year, person to person.  To come down in this fashion and pretend otherwise is the height of pretension.  I hope we're not going to start suggesting that it's okay to change the word gay from its original meaning to one thing, but that to use it in another context is "inappropriate".  That the word in this context matches the word in another context is meaningless in the extreme.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2004, 10:42:17 AM »
I would tend to agree that the use of the word to mean "bad" has minimal association with homosexuality. The English language has many words with multiple meanings, many due to widespread colloquialism. I think it's come long past the point where calling something "gay" makes any suggestion about the speaker's stance on homosexuality. Incidentally, I've never seen a homosexual person claim that they find it offensive.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2004, 10:55:41 AM by SimDing0 »

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2004, 12:02:23 PM »
To be fair to Bioware, they originally seemed to be trying to market NWN as more a tool than a game - it was Interplay who placed far too much emphasis on the game part.
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Offline neriana

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2004, 02:58:30 PM »
I think everyone needs to get over themselves here. Gay is sometimes used in that context, like it or not, and large amounts of patronising "yes, I'm feeling happy thank you" isn't going to change anything.
That's moronic. It's abundantly obvious that people are more likely to use "gay" to mean "stupid" without thinking about it if no one ever points out that this is inappropriate.

Yes it is. What if people said "That's so black"? Well then black people should just suck it up, like it or not. The idea that words have absolutely no meaning is just plain silly as well. "Oh, it's the context." Well this context uses "gay" as a synonym for "bad". Gee, why would anyone find that insulting?

I know PLENTY of homosexual people who find "gay" as an insult insulting. I'm astonished that any homosexual person would actually say anything different; but then, Karen Hughes thinks the Bush administration is great for women. Being part of a group doesn't mean you're necessarily representative of that group.

The idea that "gay" as an insult is not related to homosexuality makes minimal, if any, sense. Any word cannot mean anything, unless you're Humpty Dumpty.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2004, 04:10:30 PM »
Yes it is. What if people said "That's so black"? Well then black people should just suck it up, like it or not. The idea that words have absolutely no meaning is just plain silly as well. "Oh, it's the context." Well this context uses "gay" as a synonym for "bad". Gee, why would anyone find that insulting?
Coincidentally, "black" is also used as a synonym for "impure", "evil", and so on. Calling someone "black-hearted" is hardly a racist comment...

Offline neriana

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2004, 10:31:42 PM »
Yes it is. What if people said "That's so black"? Well then black people should just suck it up, like it or not. The idea that words have absolutely no meaning is just plain silly as well. "Oh, it's the context." Well this context uses "gay" as a synonym for "bad". Gee, why would anyone find that insulting?
Coincidentally, "black" is also used as a synonym for "impure", "evil", and so on. Calling someone "black-hearted" is hardly a racist comment...

Using "black-skinned" as an insult IS a racist comment.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2004, 01:53:10 AM »
Yes it is. What if people said "That's so black"? Well then black people should just suck it up, like it or not. The idea that words have absolutely no meaning is just plain silly as well. "Oh, it's the context." Well this context uses "gay" as a synonym for "bad". Gee, why would anyone find that insulting?
Coincidentally, "black" is also used as a synonym for "impure", "evil", and so on. Calling someone "black-hearted" is hardly a racist comment...

Using "black-skinned" as an insult IS a racist comment.
So its significance depends on how you're using it. Thanks. :)

Offline Alarielle

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2004, 01:59:25 AM »
Using "black-skinned" as an insult IS a racist comment.

fair enough, but what kind of random would use that as an insult anyway?
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Offline Kish

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2004, 02:03:37 AM »
Yes it is. What if people said "That's so black"? Well then black people should just suck it up, like it or not. The idea that words have absolutely no meaning is just plain silly as well. "Oh, it's the context." Well this context uses "gay" as a synonym for "bad". Gee, why would anyone find that insulting?
Coincidentally, "black" is also used as a synonym for "impure", "evil", and so on. Calling someone "black-hearted" is hardly a racist comment...

Using "black-skinned" as an insult IS a racist comment.
So its significance depends on how you're using it. Thanks. :)
As she said previously and is still quoted in your post, "This context uses 'gay' as a synonym for 'bad.'  Gee, why would anyone find that insulting?"

So I'm at a loss.  What are you thanking her for, now?

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Coincidentally, "black" is also used as a synonym for "impure", "evil", and so on.
Do you really believe that's a coincidence?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2004, 02:32:06 AM by Kish »
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Offline Caswallon

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2004, 05:35:26 AM »
Quote
Coincidentally, "black" is also used as a synonym for "impure", "evil", and so on.
Do you really believe that's a coincidence?
Hmm... do you believe the association of "black" with "darkness" and "evil" has something to do with skin colour?  ???
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2004, 06:08:16 AM »
Oh my god.. are a few of you really that niave?  My guess is that you're just being beligerant.  The context of that word is unmistakable.  Still, I would agree that patronizing accomplishes nothing.

Equating gay with stupid is offensive in the same way white people using (I'll say it, so there's no confusion) nigger in ANY context is offensive - is that clear enough for you?  It's also in how the term was coined, and I never use that word for that reason; if black people want to calling themselves that, fine, but I was taught differently - the same way I taught my nephew that using gay in that context was equally offensive and derogatory.

black being associated with evil only came about, when?  We see it when Hollywood started rolling the movies out.. is it in print anywhere?  Villians in black?  When was the term black-hearted coined?

Gosh, maybe the black folks had it all wrong and were taking themselves too seriously.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2004, 07:53:04 AM »
I'm pretty sure black being associated with evil has been around since before white people even knew black people existed.
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Offline jester

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2004, 08:03:55 AM »
Gsus, as much as I enjoy off-topicness, I think some GM should put a lid on this babble. This is not getting anywhere. :(
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Offline Quitch

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2004, 09:21:57 AM »
Quote
Yes it is. What if people said "That's so black"? Well then black people should just suck it up, like it or not. The idea that words have absolutely no meaning is just plain silly as well. "Oh, it's the context." Well this context uses "gay" as a synonym for "bad". Gee, why would anyone find that insulting?

But it isn't so I really don't care.

Quote
I know PLENTY of homosexual people who find "gay" as an insult insulting. I'm astonished that any homosexual person would actually say anything different; but then, Karen Hughes thinks the Bush administration is great for women. Being part of a group doesn't mean you're necessarily representative of that group.

And I'm sure plenty of gay people don't care.  Just because some people dislike something is no reason in itself to not do it.

Quote
Equating gay with stupid is offensive in the same way white people

True, only if people meant it to mean homosexual.  They don't, so it isn't.  Gay means stupid, pure and simple.  The matching spelling is irrelevant since words are definition nothing more.  If I call someone gay does that mean I'm saying they're always happy simply because the spelling happens to match?
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2004, 09:55:34 AM »
As she said previously and is still quoted in your post, "This context uses 'gay' as a synonym for 'bad.'  Gee, why would anyone find that insulting?"
...and gay is also a synonym for "happy", "merry", and so on. So what? We're not calling gay people happy every time we use it.

But okay, let's look at what I'm saying:

Black is often synonymous with or representative of evil. This is not offensive in this context, although calling someone black MAY be a derogatory term.
Hence, why should using gay always be considered as insulting? Fine, it can be used offensively, but in the same way, it doesn't always have to be.

Quote
Do you really believe that's a coincidence?
No, but if using "black" to mean something bad isn't offensive, why should using "gay" in a similar way be?

Quote
Oh my god.. are a few of you really that niave?
What you call naivity, I call open-mindedness. :)

Quote
nigger in ANY context is offensive
And why is it offensive? Because of the way it's tended to be used, rather than the meaning of the word itself. But it's a poor analogy because "gay" has various usages which say nothing about sexual views.

Quote
Gsus, as much as I enjoy off-topicness, I think some GM should put a lid on this babble. This is not getting anywhere.
I'd like to split it out of this thread and get back to discussing NWN, but I'd probably end up deleting it by accident or something.

Offline Alarielle

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Re: "Gay" as an insult
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2004, 10:20:42 AM »
nigger in ANY context is offensive - is that clear enough for you? 

actually, I think you will find that nigger is a derivative of the old english word niggered, meaning black or stained.  It was not a derogatory term for a black person, nor an insult of any kind.  People in the 19th/20th Centuries derived the word nigger from it as a term for black people.  Originally it was just an everyday adjective, whose use can be observed in many texts including Shakespeare's 'Julius Caesar'.  Languages evolve and contexts change, so any word can be given multitudes of meanings.
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