Author Topic: Having sex before wedding  (Read 20623 times)

Offline rreinier

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2004, 03:00:41 PM »
What's the big difference between the two?

Re: jester - The actual drop would be due to both, but especially the sex part, I think. After all, you ARE cheating on her...

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2004, 03:03:45 PM »
The act itself has the potential to hurt someone deeply; it's the most severe betrayal of trust imaginable. And lying to cover it up doesn't make it any better. Surely this is fairly evil?

Offline jester

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2004, 05:27:29 PM »
So there is no second drop when you lie to her? How should promiscuity be reflected in virtue? Isn't it also evil to begin to romance Aerie and abandon her for Vic? Or is this just a drop for the one Phaere situation (since sex with drow is bad)? Is this only applicable for paladins? CN thief/mages should not get a drop or what?
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Offline Kish

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2004, 08:23:52 PM »
I believe the idea is that it's evil to have sex with Phaere if you're in a committed relationship--that is, if AnyoneRomanceActive=2.  Nothing about sex with drow being evil (btw, Jester, why is it that whenever you disagree with someone you come up with these ludicrous straw men?).

I agree that this is evil.  However, I should note that lying is only an issue with Jaheira, whom you can tell Phaere "forced" you.  There is no option of claiming you didn't have sex with her if you did.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2004, 12:11:20 PM by Kish »
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Offline Bri

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2004, 09:03:17 PM »
The first thing to bear in mind is that various deities have different views on sex, and this carries down to their priests.  A follower of Sune will be held to a different standard in that regard than one of Torm.

However, in general, a single Bhaalspawn slaking his lust with Phaere wouldn't drop in Virtue.

One in a committed relationship? Lying, as well as cheating on her would...especially if one is a cleric or a paladin.

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2004, 11:13:33 PM »
I'd add my voice to the 'I think the romanceNPC dialogue handles it well enough'.  If this is seriously being considered, and I hope that it isn't, I think a stat check is in order.  Can the PC get out of it in the first place?

Phaere actually does force the PC and there is no 'I don't want to' option without recrimination; the 'I can't' option checks stats as well, does it not?  If you refuse, the city goes hostile and the eggs are lost.

I would agree, however, that lying to your romanceNPC (and getting away with it) should drop virtue for certain characters.  A cleric of Talos, for instance, shouldn't incure a virture drop.. if anything it should increase - aren't they being true to their faith?  :P
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Offline Kish

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2004, 11:41:49 PM »
I'd add my voice to the 'I think the romanceNPC dialogue handles it well enough'.  If this is seriously being considered, and I hope that it isn't, I think a stat check is in order.  Can the PC get out of it in the first place?

Phaere actually does force the PC and there is no 'I don't want to' option without recrimination; the 'I can't' option checks stats as well, does it not?
That depends on what you say after that.  If you say, "I'm a eunuch," or, "I took a vow," or, "I'm under a curse," that checks stats.  If you say, "I belong to another, someone you don't know," that always works.
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  If you refuse, the city goes hostile and the eggs are lost.
Yes to the former, no to the latter--if you refuse, you just have to fight your way to the temple and seize the eggs by force.  This is well within the abilities of the average PC.  Whether it's reasonable to expect a PC to maintain fidelity in the face of blown cover and a huge battle is of course another debate.

Quote
A cleric of Talos, for instance, shouldn't incure a virture drop.. if anything it should increase - aren't they being true to their faith?
A cleric of Talos whose Virtue rises moves closer to Falling, closer to pissing off his most recommended traveling companions, and generally away from everywhere he would want to be.
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2004, 02:40:00 AM »
Well, one thing's for sure - It's a big quagmire.  :)

(I think I've decided.. not only do I hate paladins, I think I hate virtue too (not the mod, but the attribute) ;D)
..I'm definitely tired of debates and am on sabatical  ;)

A cleric of Talos whose Virtue rises moves closer to Falling, closer to pissing off his most recommended traveling companions, and generally away from everywhere he would want to be.
Hmm.. yes.. most excellent point. So it should actually "fall" then - while this seems counter-intuitive, it's really not.  Well now, that scenario works out easily enough.  :D
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Offline Caswallon

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2004, 04:08:24 AM »
Yes to the former, no to the latter--if you refuse, you just have to fight your way to the temple and seize the eggs by force.  This is well within the abilities of the average PC.  Whether it's reasonable to expect a PC to maintain fidelity in the face of blown cover and a huge battle is of course another debate.

Which is caused by the way Bioware has implemented the Drow city. For the PC, the option would be a blown cover and barely an escape (getting the eggs maybe with a truely heroic or lucky feat). That it's actually "well, in this city are about 30 Drow, and most of them will stay well separated in their rooms until we slaughter them - we can handle that" shouldn't have much influence on the decision.
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Offline Quitch

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2004, 03:51:25 PM »
The act itself has the potential to hurt someone deeply; it's the most severe betrayal of trust imaginable. And lying to cover it up doesn't make it any better. Surely this is fairly evil?

Not really, and unless you're going to start making killing people worth five points, or find a way of having quarter points for lies, then I don't see this fitting in.  Evil is skinning live bunnies and helping them stoke the fire Viconia is on, not dodging your commitment.
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2004, 04:06:05 PM »
I disagree. If I Disintegrate a peasant, it's gonna cause him a heck of a lot less pain than I'd cause to my girlfriend when I sleep with Phaere...

Offline icelus

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2004, 04:16:58 PM »
Yes, but your girlfriend will still be alive, and her mother will assure her that there are "other fish in the sea."

Think about that peasant's mother.  :'(
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2004, 04:38:06 PM »
So killing orphans is better than killing any other people?

Offline jester

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2004, 04:43:50 PM »
Quote
it's the most severe betrayal of trust imaginable

Sings * You ain't seen nothin yet, baby, you ain't...*

What is the virtue drop for old ironpants to neglect his family? He is scarring his daughter and her future relationships for good. Yes, cheating is not good and lying about it is also not very nice, but I had to stake five vampires before breakfast, dismantle a beholder cult, which OMFG Helm couldn't, singlehandedly and had to hand a couple of liches their behinds. I am talkin eeeevli baby not  relationship troubles. Having a go at that Festhall girl in Brynnlaw who is sooo thankful for rescuing her is evil, because uncalled for. If you are undercover, you have got to howl with the wolves, Donnie Brasco style.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2004, 05:46:41 PM by jester »
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Offline Kish

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2004, 05:33:06 PM »
What is the virtue drop for old ironpants to neglect his family?
NPCs don't have Virtue ratings.  How much combat there is in the game is...completely irrelevant.  Is there anything in your post that doesn't translate either to, "I say you shouldn't make it impact Virtue" or to, "..."?
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Offline jester

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2004, 05:45:41 PM »
The second I must confess. The fundamental idea behind anything like virtue is that it affects everyone. True, it is only recorded and handled for the PC, but if the PC happens to be a paladin the next best example would be Keldorn I think. The discussion topic was grief caused by betrayal and the resulting drop because of an evil act.

The second part of my post hints at the differences between plain adultery and a very special situation during an undercover mission. I hope this cleared things up a bit.

The combat may be irrelevant, but your antagonists are not. The yardstick for evil must clearly be 'evil' and not bad or really annoying. As Quitch said then there should be a 1/5 drop for cheating on your partner and not admitting it. Actually admitting it could undo that drop, because apologizing and sincere regret should be rewarded too.

I say you shouldn't make it impact Virtue. :)
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Offline neriana

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2004, 07:09:34 PM »
Admitting you cheated may actually hurt the person you cheated on more than hiding it from them. So how can you judge, in this situation, what is morally right for someone else? And how can you think that cheating on someone is morally equivalent to, say, leaving Jaheira to die?
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Offline Kish

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2004, 08:31:28 PM »
Admitting you cheated may actually hurt the person you cheated on more than hiding it from them. So how can you judge, in this situation, what is morally right for someone else?
Again, there's really no question of admitting it or hiding it--none of your dialogue options attempt to deny that you slept with Phaere, if you did.
Quote
And how can you think that cheating on someone is morally equivalent to, say, leaving Jaheira to die?
I don't think anyone would argue that.
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2004, 11:00:56 AM »
Quitch proposed that Virtue should be relative, so if your Virtue is high, you receive a greater penalty for evil actions. Perhaps, therefore, cheating should only cause a drop if you have very high Virtue?

Although this introduces a problem, because it means that the more good deeds a Paladin does, the easier it is for them to fall.

Offline rreinier

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2004, 01:05:46 PM »
Of course. High achievements set high expectations.

Offline Kish

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2004, 01:19:47 PM »
Perhaps, but expectations are about Reputation, not Virtue.
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Offline neriana

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2004, 02:22:29 PM »
It's not more virtuous to hurt someone if you're already a creep, and it's not less virtuous to save someone if you're good. Even with reputation, an evil person's bad act may be the "last straw", while a good person's evil act is more likely to be forgiven as one mistake.
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2004, 04:08:36 PM »
Perhaps, but expectations are about Reputation, not Virtue.
Not really. Gods would respond to Virtue rather than Reputation, since they see all that the party does, and why they do it.

It's not more virtuous to hurt someone if you're already a creep, and it's not less virtuous to save someone if you're good. Even with reputation, an evil person's bad act may be the "last straw", while a good person's evil act is more likely to be forgiven as one mistake.
But that evil act by the good person will have a larger impact on his reputation anyway, since his record is no longer spotless. I may be as heroic as I want, but if I cut down a peasant in the middle of Athkatla, people won't really like me as much as they would have if I hadn't. On the other hand, if people dispise me anyway, one murder won't change matters much. They always expected me to be capable of it, so me actually doing it will result in a far lesser reputation drop.

The same logic would apply to Virtue, I would think...

Offline CORVIS TERRIBLE MOUNTAIN GOD

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2004, 04:27:44 PM »
Not really. Gods would respond to Virtue rather than Reputation, since they see all that the party does, and why they do it.

The gods of Faerun are not omniscient.

Offline Mongoose87

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Re: Having sex before wedding
« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2004, 07:46:21 PM »
Yes, the gods of Faerun are somewhat less perfect than most gods owrships on earth.  They kind of remind of the greek gods

 

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