Keldorn's drow hatred--what started it?

[Guest]

So I take it, since you're defending the fact that Viconia doesn't give a crap about whether the PC goes and shags anyone, that you wouldn't care if your boyfriend (or girlfriend) went and had sex with someone else at this moment?

[Guest]

Maybe you ALL need to read what I've said more before you post, because none of you seem to be getting it.

My comparison with Austin Powers is to do with the unnamed people that the PC kills all through the game, I mean, surely there's a way of talking them out of it. You must have never seen Austin Powers if you have no idea what I mean.

[Kish]

Kish I don't know when I said anything along the lines of "Viconia is a slut so she should be burned at the stake."

That's all right.  I can read the posts you're agreeing with, even if you can't.

So I take it, since you're defending the fact that Viconia doesn't give a crap about whether the PC goes and shags anyone, that you wouldn't care if your boyfriend (or girlfriend) went and had sex with someone else at this moment?

You certainly have non-sequiturs down, though.

"Slut" is a vicious, ugly word, and nothing more.  Using it means indicating that it's wrong for a woman to be sexual.  If Viconia is guilty of anything, you can find a way to express that without losing all your moral credibility.

[Guest]

That's all right.

Good.

I can read the posts you're agreeing with, even if you can't.

I haven't AGREED with anyone, I've said that I can see where some people are coming from, that's all.

You certainly have non-sequiturs down, though.

It's a logical enough conclusion. If anything, it's Neriana that has the non sequiturs down, judging from her conclusions.

If Domi thinks Viconia is a slut, then that's her opinion, I was just saying that I could see reason for her to consider Viconia a slut, not that I think Viconia is a slut. You're acting as though I think all women are sluts or something. I have no idea where you got that from.

Oh, Neriana, I have not said that Keldorn being angry at Viconia is justifiable for him killing her. I've said that you can add a bit of that roleplay into it. Hope Viconia taunts everyone else first, recommends the PC into doing evil acts, then taunts Keldorn, she pushes him over the edge or something, think whatever you like. I'll quote myself...

Keldorn's reaction to Viconia's taunting is very harsh.

... and then I was suggesting reasons for you lot to roleplay for, that's all.

[Cybersquirt]

..and vampires weren't born vampires, so.. ..what? 

Vampires aren't a race.  Rather, vampirism is a condition that can afflict members of a number of races, particularly humanoid races.  Part of this condition involves the victim's alignment changing to Chaotic Evil.

Which goes back to the whole Paladin smites evil thing.  So, again, what?

I find it amusing that you single out that line in the whole of that post for comment.  So what's your point in there, Kish?

(and I refuse to banter with someone who cannot take the time to ID themselves)

[Domi]

I consider Viconia a slut by a single reason - she lures into her bed a man who she does not love, not even likes (!) and allows herself to pour dirt all over him afterwards. I mean Cnahrname here.

There is nothing wrong when a woman or a man has multiple lovers - if they indeed love them.

However, if a person has sex for money they are called a prostitutes - again it is a gender-independent category; if Viconia [replaced "person", for clarity] has sex without love - well... if "sexually promiscuous" is the politically correct term, then let's call her (Viconia) sexually promiscuous. Which does not make her (Viconia's) behaivour any less ugly.

And nobody says that she should be burned because of that.

At least 5 murders is what she has to answer for.


So it's basically the Flaming Fist Officer's word against Viconia's.  He also expects the PC to be convinced that she's evil merely because she's a drow, in that last sentence.  If the PC lets the Flaming Fist kill her, he/she's no better than Keldorn doing the same thing.

I think they call it Due Process.

Not to say that Viconia isn't evil, it's just that she's not guilty.

Yes, it is, but what makes me pretty sure that he has the proof, is that he is ready to die(!) in order to arrest Viconia - he goes against 6 heavily armed adventurers alone. And he is not some bright-eyed paladin - he is a hired soldier. It only makes sense if Viconia is indeed guilty of something terrible. If he was not sure, he'd just walked away. Plus, she is evil-aligned *shrugs*  I think it is more evil to kill the man. Imagine that he was a joinable NPC - for example Minsc, Kivan or Ajantis, chasing Viconia, not _FLAM2, whose death is of no consequence to the player whasoever (btw, need to restore reputation penalty on that one) - now, it stops being such an easy choice, is not it?

Plus, to keep Viconia alive and in the party the player has to kill the two most interesting male NPCs! I mean, killing BOTH *Kivan* and *Valygar* for her?! NO WAY! That's some sadistic expectation!

[jester]

I think he is just a soldier with an order and he surely does not plan to die in this encounter. I always meet him as a mage, a thief and a ranger. Not what a well trained soldier would call an army.

Why do I have to kill Kivan and Valygar?

[BobTokyo]

That soldier's story would make for a very interesting fan-fic, regardless of the writers opinion of Viconia's guilt.

What is Viconia's charmed dialog in BG1? Does she admit to the murders?

[Domi]

Heh, it is still 4 against 1 odds (!) Only a desperate man will take them.  I am not talking about 7 agaiunst 1 odds that he is also willing to take - and he is a hired man (!) Why else would he be prepared to cast his life aside so easily?

Because Viconia starts a row with Valygar, Kivan, and (I think) also Ajantis and Keldorn that ends up in them fighting to the death. So to keep the precious abused drow alive you have to allow her to kill all these characters! Not to mention that this BioWARE's cunning designer's descision makes all of them in some sort of "evil bastards" which they are not when they are not in a party with Viconia.

[Domi]

That soldier's story would make for a very interesting fan-fic, regardless of the writers opinion of Viconia's guilt.

What is Viconia's charmed dialog in BG1? Does she admit to the murders?

no, of course not. She also do not mention any child-saving actions. It is a result of the political event - most probably BioWARE tried to pull the anachronistic trick with Do'Urden/DeVir conflict:

I come from the city of Menzoberranzan.  My family was slaughtered, and I was forced to flee to the surface.  When I reached the realms of light, the traitor Lolth abandoned me.  I would have been lost had it not been for the divine Shar!  She took me in and gave me the will and strength to survive!  It makes me so happy that I have found friends such as you to make my acclimation to the surface a little easier.

I can add it into PC-initiated dialogues, but one cannot make her to admit to them - because it was so obviously left for the player to decide.

[BobTokyo]

I can add it into PC-initiated dialogues, but one cannot make her to admit to them - because it was so obviously left for the player to decide.

Was the dialog you quoted above the Guard's charmed dialog? We can assume that anything said while charmed is not a lie (it may be wrong, or subjective, but not a lie); that he sincerely believes she is a killer would be worth knowing from a fan-fic point of view.

Also, doesn't she talk about having killed a captive soldier at some point in BGII? I think that it is in the game text that she has ritually murdered in the name of her godesses, no matter what else the player thinks of the character.

[Domi]

Yes, it is a charmed dialogue; yes FF sincerely believes that she killed at least 4 people (farmer, wife, kids); I am not sure about her BG2 texts - I have not have her in the party since 2001.

[Kish]

if a person has sex without love - well... if "sexually promiscuous" is the politically correct term, then let's call her sexually promiscuous. Which does not make her behaivour any less ugly.

Ugly, hm?

Now, I would say that someone who pronounces pompous, high-handed judgment on everyone who has ever had sex without love, as though she has a right to tell everyone what is and isn't a valid reason to have (consensual) sex, has the monopoly on ugly, and contemptible, behavior.  But, hey, that's just my opinion.

[Domi]

Cool. I think we reached the "agree to diasgree" point Kish.

And yes, I have a right - not to tell others what to do - but to have my own opinion on their actions without impeding them - and to say it out loud. And for the record - the quote states quite clearly - "her behaviour", meaning Viconia - not a group of people.

You just labled me as ugly (and I am starting to really pity you, actually - since your posts to those who disagree with you tend to express strong personal animosity. Try to understand, that not having the same position on moral issues does not make a person in some sort of a monster who has to be chased and killed. You are fine and sharp debater, but you keep falling for Don Quichote's scheme - to function you need enemies) ... well, honestly, the way I see it you are doing exactly the same thing as you berate me for doing. You are just as oppinionated as I, my dear -  only you set free choice as a corner stone of human sexuality; I add love to it. And I am as adamant about it as you are. I do not think that people sin against gods, other people, laws or some stuff like that. I think it devaluates their own ability to feel. And it becomes especially nasty when sex is used not even for pleasure, but for self-gain. And that's I believe what Viconia is doing to Charname.

[Kish]

And for the record - the quote states quite clearly - "her behaviour", meaning Viconia - not a group of people.

if a person has sex without love - well... if "sexually promiscuous" is the politically correct term, then let's call her sexually promiscuous. Which does not make her behaivour any less ugly.

"Her" does not appear to refer to Viconia here, but to "a person."  As in--any person who has sex without being in love.  That probably includes the majority of posters on this board, but whoever it includes, you have just personally insulted all of them.  That being the case, I am afraid I am less than impressed with your lectures about trying to understand that disagreement does not make one a monster.  You apparently think that disagreeing with your personal sexual ethics makes someone a slut.  "Slut" is a nastier word than "monster" any day.

I can live with the pity of someone for whom I have no respect.

[neriana]

I think it devaluates their own ability to feel.

If you have had sex without love, and it hurt your ability to feel, then I am truly sorry for you, but that's not the way it goes for everyone. If you have not, then you have just set yourself up as a better, more feeling, being than those who have, and that's total bullshit. It's insulting and superior, and it also happens to be totally wrong. I suppose you don't mind saying nasty, untrue things about "sluts" who can't feel anything anyway, hm?

Viconia is mean and nasty because she's mean and nasty. Her having sex without love has nothing to do with it. In fact, she would probably be a lot less mean if she wasn't falling in love.

[Domi]

"Her" refered to Viconia    I checked the dictionary, and slut means promiscous woman, and I think that both you and Neriana used "promiscous" so how that is worst... whatever.

Main Entry: slut
Pronunciation: 'sl&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English slutte
1 chiefly British : a slovenly woman
2 a : a promiscuous woman; especially : PROSTITUTE b : a saucy girl : MINX
- slut·tish  /'sl&-tish/ adjective
- slut·tish·ly adverb
- slut·tish·ness noun
- slut·ty  /'sl&-tE/ adjective

[Domi]

OK, you are all right, I publically appologize to Viconia for defaming her.

[nurgles_herald]

heh:

You guys sure know how to get mad at each other.  I formally request a moderator to lock this thread before someone gets even more pissed off and/or someone gets hurt.  I probably should've just kept my mouth shut in this thread; now I know I'm part of the problem.  At least I can act as part of the solution.

[jcompton]

The thread was locked. It isn't locked anymore.

Please be aware that further discussion of the relative merits of Viconia's sexuality, or attempts to branch it out into a discussion of all loveless sex, will be very annoying. It's hard to have a discussion about Keldorn and drow without talking about Viconia. But let's keep it relevant to Keldorn. Who, we're pretty certain, isn't having sex with Viconia.

[Kish]

You guys sure know how to get mad at each other.  I formally request a moderator to lock this thread before someone gets even more pissed off and/or someone gets hurt.

Too late.

You're right, though; I should have kept my temper.

[jester]

.....Who, we're pretty certain, isn't having sex with Viconia.

I smell Unfinished Business!

On a sidenote I think it is not a downward spiral, even if discussions go astray, as the very thread it got out of hand could also be the place to reconcile, if not in the matter, so in principle. For complete out-of-proportion-attacks which cannot be argued along the in-heat-of-the-debate line it should not be locked but rather be deleted completely.

[Da_venom]

maybe bioware mistyped the reaction of keldron in hating drow's or viciona

because Korgan is the actual drow hater because at the end story he storms in ust ustnatha

also with heldorn's ending is a bit weird because he is lawful good so his deity should be lathander not helm right?

because helm is true neutral if i am not mistaken and true neutral's seek for balance not letting evil or good ones let the upper hand

so if keldorn want's to be the right hand of helm he must check out the balance so there is isn't a real reason for him killing viciona

[SimDing0™]

I'm fairly sure Helm can take Lawful Good worshippers. And he's all about justice, not balance.

[Da_venom]

ain't helm supposed to be a neutral god?

all neutral's care for balance right?

>>lawful neutral<<