Author Topic: Mod Commentary  (Read 21564 times)

Offline Quitch

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2004, 07:42:56 AM »
So, if the reviews tell no one, except those who have played the mods, anything... what exactly is their point?

Anyway, the Iron Modder 5 commentry was better.  A little confusing, since the winning mod sounded like it should be quite sad, but then it bangs on about the laughs so who knows WTF is going on there.  Clear as always.
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Offline Pirengle

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2004, 12:35:14 PM »
Poor baby. Maybe you should just enter IM6 and write your own, clearer README.
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Offline Quitch

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2004, 03:28:56 AM »
I see you are unable to answer the question.  Perhaps you should go to another forum and tackle something simpler before taxing your mind with this ever so difficult subject.  No doubt you have a forum you need to be at shouting things like "If you think you can do better, write your own mod!"  I don't know how life could go on without people like you, every society needs people to do the manual labour.
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Offline cliffette

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2004, 07:44:03 AM »
The reviews are a tongue-in-cheek, humorous take-off of the fawning judge's comments from the actual Iron Chef shows. They serve as amusement for their authors and a select few who have a lighter sense of humour. Even if you don't enjoy them, other people do. Which is why they remain.

The point of the iron modding contest is to discover exactly how each modder went about interpreting the theme. If we could just read about what they did on a site, nobody would be bothered downloading the mods. Discovery is a joy... and with the readmes in hand, discovery is not too difficult a task.

I consider the 10 minutes it takes to download the Iron Modding pack, and the minute it takes to find and read the readme, not much to ask in the face of each Iron Modder's 4 hours of work (except for Sim :P).

But in all honesty, being borderline insulting and patronising is not the best way to get someone to do some extra work for you. Or change their mind, as seen in the last couple of posts in this thread.

And blah blah, hypocrisy. I know. :)

Offline Bons

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2004, 12:34:17 PM »
Really, I'd miss it if Quitch didn't complain about the lack of detail in the mod descriptions.
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Offline Quitch

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2004, 12:55:11 PM »
I think that the point here is that people aren't going on voyages of discovery precisely because they have so little idea of what to expect.

As for Pirengle, as a modder I think I'm in a pretty good position to comment on the fact that the most annoying personality type on a mod forum is the one that won't let anyone knock the mod and comes in shouting "If you think you can do better MAKE YOUR OWN MOD!"  They strike me as the type.  One of the most interesting threads on Ascension I read was about how it was overrated.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2004, 12:57:50 PM by Quitch »
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2004, 12:57:46 PM »
I don't think it's the end of the world, personally. People who are interesting in Iron Modder download the entries to find out what they're about, while the casual player glosses over the entries because they don't know what they are. I consider this good, because Iron Modder entries are not material that I'd encourage anyone to install for a normal playthrough.

Offline Pirengle

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2004, 01:07:29 PM »
As for Pirengle, as a modder I think I'm in a pretty good position to comment on the fact that the most annoying personality type on a mod forum is the one that won't let anyone knock the mod and comes in shouting "If you think you can do better MAKE YOUR OWN MOD!" They strike me as the type. One of the most interesting threads on Ascension I read was about how it was overrated.

Well bitching about something is one thing, but bitching about something and proving the bastards wrong is quite another. If you, say, had worthwhile suggestions for Iron Modder readmes, or put in to be be a judge, or even GASP IN HORROR entered any of the Iron Modder competitions yourself, maybe people would take you seriously.

Maybe I'm not some 1337 joygasm modder like the rest of the folks here, and certainly not 1337 like you. But I know pompousity when I see it. Put up or shut up, Quitch. Whining about it here won't change anything.
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Offline jcompton

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2004, 01:18:39 PM »
I think that the only thing sucking the joy out of Iron Modder more than complaining that there are not detailed descriptions of "the mod where every CRE in the game turns into a slime" or "the mod where you find a zombie and his ex-wife" is the arguing about it.
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Offline Pirengle

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2004, 03:23:06 PM »
Heh. Insert witty comment here. I get the point, and will keep quiet.
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Offline Quitch

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2004, 04:26:24 AM »
As for Pirengle, as a modder I think I'm in a pretty good position to comment on the fact that the most annoying personality type on a mod forum is the one that won't let anyone knock the mod and comes in shouting "If you think you can do better MAKE YOUR OWN MOD!" They strike me as the type. One of the most interesting threads on Ascension I read was about how it was overrated.

Well bitching about something is one thing, but bitching about something and proving the bastards wrong is quite another. If you, say, had worthwhile suggestions for Iron Modder readmes, or put in to be be a judge, or even GASP IN HORROR entered any of the Iron Modder competitions yourself, maybe people would take you seriously.

Maybe I'm not some 1337 joygasm modder like the rest of the folks here, and certainly not 1337 like you. But I know pompousity when I see it. Put up or shut up, Quitch. Whining about it here won't change anything.

You want me to prove people wrong on a subjective issue?  Okaaaaay...

Last I checked you were allowed to disagree with others without it being classed as whinging, but if you want to be over protective, or whatever it is you're suffering from, please, be my guest.
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Offline jester

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2004, 09:23:57 AM »
I think we have heard both sides of the argument now and just like what they say about parallel lines and infinity some positions never meet in the foreseeable future.  :-yin
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2004, 09:33:26 AM »
Less Final Word, more talk about interesting stuff.
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Offline julwise

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2004, 10:02:16 AM »
I think it comes down to...

1) Quitch thinks mod commentary/description should be more informative. (Because it could open up Iron Modder packages to more people who feel the same.)
2) Writers of said commentary/description don't care. (Possibly because they don't see that as the "point" of the contest.)

Offline jester

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2004, 01:30:24 PM »
Additionally they may perceive the surprise factor as exactly what makes one of these mods fun to look at. You get the general idea from the contest motto and you may or may not care what this specific modder has come up with.
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Offline icelus

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2004, 03:20:39 PM »
Less Final Word, more talk about interesting stuff.
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2004, 08:33:38 PM »
Additionally they may perceive the surprise factor as exactly what makes one of these mods fun to look at. You get the general idea from the contest motto and you may or may not care what this specific modder has come up with.

Jester has it right here.  Iron Mods would not be any fun to play if it was all detailed in the readme.  Heck, a detailed readme would probably have more content in it than some of the mods do.

It's a curiosity thing.  If you're curious, play the mod.  If you're not that curious, then you won't have any more or less enjoyment than you would if the mod was explained concisely in a nice text file.  If the hideously long load time of BG2 and the typing of a few console commands to warp to the mod is too trying, then you can just check out the .d and .tp2 files to see what happens.
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Offline julwise

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2004, 11:51:31 PM »
Hey, it just makes the Iron Modder content less accessible to more casual players to not have a more detailed readme/commentary. It's like you really have to want it in order to feel motivated to download it. Personally I am curious, but i'd rather just install the mods and go about encountering them in a regular play through. But when I don't know how they will affect a regularly-paced game it feels too risky.

I just think the modders/writers don't particularly want it to be more accessible. My understanding is that this is because they don't see accessibility as being a major point of the Iron Modder contests.

Offline neriana

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2004, 11:56:08 PM »
Since every mod must contain a description of exactly how to access it, I don't see how "accessibility" is an issue here. You can't change the scope of the game with 4 hours of work.
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Offline cliffette

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2004, 12:40:42 AM »
// I would like to pre-apologise for my overly sarcastic tone in this post. And I'll stop posting in this thread too. :)

We're in a Catch-22. Not knowing what the mod is about is preventing you from installing it. But if we tell you what the mod is about, you won't need to install it. It's pretty much up to you to overcome that hurdle.

But if what people are complaining about is the lack of readme online, you're in luck.

This is what I have done to bring you this information.

i) Clicked download
ii) Opened the .zip file
iii) Looked for readme.
iv) Read readmes
v) Selectively copied information from readmes, pasted.

You can do it too, but leave out step (v) and click on the .exe instead to install. Fifteen minutes of work for you, max. Less if you have broadband.


Bons' Entry
Bons's Iron Modder V Entry:

Err. Theoretically, the party should be approached in the Promenade [3645.1410] by an NPC named Valeria for dialogue. After the dialogue, the party should hunt the sewers (AR0701) for Tarnish Kalbian [3041.2492], then return to Valeria to finish out the quest.

(Purchase/console in some Friends scrolls, SCRL72, for the maximum effect.)

SConrad's Entry
To start the journey, visit the south-eastern corner of Waukeen's Promenade at night.
Someone will initiate dialogue.

Andyr's Entry
Contents
The mod contains only one component, a quest. To start the quest, you might like to speak to Galoomp the Bookkeeper in Waukeen's Promenade (AR0700). From there it is up to you how you proceed... The quest has different outcomes depending on your actions. After it's over, if you achieved one of the nice outcomes it may be worth your while to go back and visit Galoomp a few days later, for something extra to see. Happy ending? Sad ending? You decide!

The quest contains Journal entries, and interjections from a selection of joinable NPCs (Korgan, Aerie, Nalia, Edwin, Keldorn, Cernd and Haer'Dalis).


Ghreyfain's Entry
Once in the game, do the
following:

 - Visit AR0404 (the sewers beneath the Copper Coronet)
 - Do Quallo's quests (OR for quick testing, simply attack the carrion crawler)
 - Do as Quallo bids


Icelus' Entry
The quest begins in the Trademeet.  You must have Imoen in your party (after Spellhold) and rest at the inn.

Sim's Entry
Skip to chapter 6. Have Imoen in the party (so, create "imoen211"). CTRL+I until she talks. Admire appalling banter.

Neriana's Entry
Go to Trademeet near the pub after Faldorn is dead. Cernd, Mazzy, Keldorn and Nalia, in that order each have something special to say under the right circumstances. To see it --

SPOILER

pick the option "He helped the Shadow Druids? He deserves the worst!" Cernd will speak if he's in your party. Mazzy will speak if Cernd isn't in your party. Keldorn will speak if neither Mazzy nor Cernd are in your party, and Nalia will speak if none of the other three are there.

Shed's Entry
This mod takes place in Trademeet, AR2000. The action takes place between a merchant (Terrence) at 2364.2807 and a mage (Phil) at 1832.1407. They are two estranged friends and it is your task to reconcile them (or not).
« Last Edit: October 23, 2004, 12:47:36 AM by cliffette »

Offline jcompton

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2004, 12:46:50 AM »
If I may offer a Halloween-themed analogy (and I may.)

Think of Iron Modder as a haunted house.

The theme of a haunted house is "Frightening things."

If when you buy your ticket I hand you a pamphlet that tells you exactly what's going to jump out at you at every turn... then I have sucked all of the joy out of the endeavor, wasting your time and mine.
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Offline julwise

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2004, 11:40:10 AM »
You can create a mod that kills some or all of the NPC's in the course of four hours. I think that has a huge affect on the course of a casual game. 

I have downloaded Iron Modder packages in the past, and I found them as uninformative as I find the ones posted by cliffette. However, this point has already been made and is irrelevant to what i've been saying lately.

jcompton, I have already accepted, and twice tried to explain for others' understanding (and to confirm my own), what's going on here. You've been offered a suggestion, and you've chosen not to accept if for your own reasons. In your opinion, knowing what the mod does sucks the fun out of experiencing it, in my opinion, it doesn't. Therefore I think the subject needs to be let go, because nothing is going to be done about the suggestion in question.

If this understanding, which I have tried to explain three times now, is wrong, let me know.

Offline neriana

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2004, 04:07:15 PM »
You can create a mod that kills some or all of the NPC's in the course of four hours. I think that has a huge affect on the course of a casual game.

1) Very tough to program. 4 hours might be enough to do that for some people, I guess, but... extremely doubtful. Anyone who did that would probably be summarily flayed by committee anyway.
2) Has anyone tried to do this in an IM entry?

Most modders who enter IM try to make their entries fit into the game (except for a certain joke entry by Sim last time.) Killing off all, or any, NPCs, is beyond their scope.

Here is the kind of thing all the iron mods I've seen do:
1) Add some dialogue
2) Add one quest
3) Add a cutscene
4) A combination thereof
... that's all I can think of.
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Offline cliffette

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2004, 07:10:33 PM »
 :'(

Julwise, think about it this way:
If you knew what was going to happen in each Iron mod, and installed it and played it, you're going through the motions, not playing. You're rereading a book you've read before. You're watching The Sixth Sense after someone told you the ending. You're not getting the full experience.

The point of the lack of commentary is not to deliberately leave you in the dark out of malice (that's the feeling I'm getting from your posts - that you think people are deliberately ignoring you or refusing to listen to you out of pure stubborness) but to protect your gaming experience. Everyone is trying to help you, not hinder you. But you have to meet us halfway.

As for potentially game-destroying mods, each quest is very short, and it is likely you will have a savegame or autosave nearby. Or you could just uninstall the offending mod in question.

Anyway, I'm done. (Again).

Offline julwise

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Re: Mod Commentary
« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2004, 10:13:10 PM »
The point of the lack of commentary is not to deliberately leave you in the dark out of malice (that's the feeling I'm getting from your posts - that you think people are deliberately ignoring you or refusing to listen to you out of pure stubborness) but to protect your gaming experience. Everyone is trying to help you, not hinder you. But you have to meet us halfway.

No no, I don't think people are doing it to be mean or anything. I think they're just standing by their opinion of how Iron Mods are best presented. That's all i'm trying to say. Sorry if it was coming out as being argumentative. If I seemed hostile, it was from slight frustration that I keep trying to explain this, and I keep getting misunderstood and given the same unrelated response. I don't need the other side's opinion explained to me, I understand it. Nor do I aim to change that opinion. All I feel is that we have differing opinions and that they are not compatible, nor are they going to become compatible.

If you wish to know more on my opinion, I understand the point about the mods possibly being ruined by more extensive information but for me personally, that's not as true. I often play games knowing "a step ahead" of what is going to happen, and I enjoy playing them that way. It's fine if other people don't agree, i'm willing to respect their opinions if others are willing to respect mine.

Neriana: It is helpful to know what kinds of things the mods add, particularly about dialogues and cutscenes. Because, I don't really know what the scope of the Iron Modder contest is, it's nice to get some information about it.

 

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