Author Topic: Attack Ust Natha!  (Read 8537 times)

Offline Jerry

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Attack Ust Natha!
« on: April 19, 2004, 06:40:39 PM »
I know the city will become hostile after our position being discovered but some players return Ust Natha in purpose and slay it to get XP. Must it influence virtue? Or maybe we can make it being hard to destroy?


Speech one:

My bodies, today we stand in front of the door of our greatest enemy. Most of you and your people have been oppressed by the evil hands of the drows. It is time to wipe them out from the world. Onward, my bodies, onward to victory.


Speech two:

Hear me, my members. The war on Faerun is continued. But today, we will eliminate one of our greatest enemies. The front is the homeworld of "Great Drows". I say to you now: The drows are weak and worthless. We must show no mercy here. We will be hunger for, consuming flesh, tasting blood. But bring me their leaders alive, those who be called "Matron Mothers". They will dead in slow and painful. Death to the drows. Crush them, eliminate them IN THE NAME OF US!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2004, 08:21:30 PM by Jerry »

Offline jester

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2004, 07:00:02 PM »
Slow and painfull. That sounds like a variation on the Ordren theme.
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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2004, 07:05:25 PM »
Wasn't this mentioned back in the FWP days? Someone suggested a "harder" Ust natha. It got lots of feedback, and I thought it was worthy of mod-making. I really dont think this really has to do with Virtue though. I mean, killing drow shouldn't really lower anything :P

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2004, 06:35:13 AM »
Yes, I don't really see slaughtering drow as influencing Virtue either way particularly. In a similar way, killing any old orc does not result in a Virtue change.

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2004, 06:49:32 AM »
erm, you're kidding Sim, right?

Jerry, you're proposing going to their one of their cities and slaughtering the lot of them, showing 'no mercy'.. why does that remind me of something?

If you like that logic then you could similarly argue that Viconia should be burned to death at that stake because we know she took many innocent lives, she is drow, and she is evil.

What gives anyone the right to be judge, juror, and executioner of an entire city of people?
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Offline jester

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2004, 06:54:44 AM »
Sim: racist! I can now clearly see why I never liked tin-heads in the first place.:P Virtue should be about your deeds not the alignment of the others. Behaving like drow wouldn't make you a paragon of virtue.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2004, 07:24:12 AM »
So clearing out the Beholder lair in the Underdark should cause Virtue falls too? I'm not saying it's good to murder a whole city of Drow, but forcing a Virtue drop for killing monsters seems ludicrous to me. Of course, I'm always open to being convinced that the Drow should be handled differently from Beholders and other monsters.

Offline jester

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2004, 07:38:20 AM »
Humanoid (cheap try to include humanoid races discovered after we made contact) races seem to have a tendency to refrain from killing anything that resembles them closely (pets are not included in this ranking). Try to kill a chimp, a rat or a spider. So nobody in FR would see a Beholder as closely related to them as they would see a drow. Although not of the same race, a dwarf would still be considered a different kill than an otygh, I would think.

I am not really arguing for implementing this in Virtue. I just wanted to add it to the discussion in general. From what I remember from the discussion over at FWP Jerry just wants his ass handed to him by a drow army. :P Which should be ok, but I am getting the impression that whiping out anything is far to easy in the game. :( The king/prince thing is a relief, because it is more a pivotal decision  that dooms them, but not one little group of adventurers killing everybody in a supposedly regular drow city.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2004, 07:54:25 AM by jester »
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2004, 07:54:26 AM »
Well, in order to even attempt a debate, we'd need to set ground work for what constitutes a monster and what constitutes bad decisions (on the game players or bioWare's part).

Just to get the game stuff out of the way: The beholder dungeon doesn't really need to be cleaned out, you get the prize from the first beholder you meet.  Conversely, you don't clean it out you miss an experience farm.
You, then, don't need to clean out any dungeon because Andalon will take you right to the door when you've brought your eggs to her.  Even Andalon, (LG?) doesn't wipe them out.

Beholder, Kuo-Tao, etc, are more easily demonized because they seem to lack language.  Ultimately, I guess, what makes a monster a monster is in lacking the ability to change; lacking reason, wisdom, and ultimately, capacity for compassion.  Feel free to expand on or contract this - you bring up an interesting point.

Then, if we want to step outside the BG game world and view traditional monsters in a different light, et's start with the drow: The only thing we see in this drow city is adults.  How reasonable is this?  They certainly have children?  They included a few examples of drow who did not feel as other, perhaps more wicked, drow did - Solaufein and Phaere, even  the worshippers of Vhaerun and possibly Jarlaxe.  They are all murderous drow with no capacity or capabilty to change, perhaps leave? 

I can't even begin to try and get in the head of a beholder or illithid.. someone else is gonna have to take that one.  ;D 

But one thing I will say - no matter how many times I play that through I still can't bring myself to corrupt that Kuo-Toan pool.  That would effectively kill their race, as well as being an optional act.

Is this your attempt at gauging the reactions?  I didn't realize that the PC gets a virtue increase for freeing Viconia, I assume they get a virtue decrease for letting her burn?  ...what was the question again?
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Offline Nesquaam

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2004, 08:28:54 AM »
I don't think murdering an entire city would have a virtue drop... (sarcastic if you didn't realize)

But seriously; the drow-city is way to weak. It's a good idea to make it harder to destroy.
And it could maybe be apart of a bigger mod. Maybe something with the Rynn-Lanthorn and Bodhi.
It could be part of the Quest-Pack perhaps?
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2004, 08:46:47 AM »
Humanoid (cheap try to include humanoid races discovered after we made contact) races seem to have a tendency to refrain from killing anything that resembles them closely (pets are not included in this ranking).
The drow don't seem to have any problem killing you if they find out who you are.

Just to get the game stuff out of the way: The beholder dungeon doesn't really need to be cleaned out, you get the prize from the first beholder you meet.  Conversely, you don't clean it out you miss an experience farm. You, then, don't need to clean out any dungeon because Andalon will take you right to the door when you've brought your eggs to her.  Even Andalon, (LG?) doesn't wipe them out.
Right, so you don't need to clear out either the Beholder nest or the Drow city, even though they'll both attack you given the chance.

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Beholder, Kuo-Tao, etc, are more easily demonized because they seem to lack language.  Ultimately, I guess, what makes a monster a monster is in lacking the ability to change; lacking reason, wisdom, and ultimately, capacity for compassion.  Feel free to expand on or contract this - you bring up an interesting point.
The Drow we meet in Ust Natha don't seem to be particulary compassionate from what I've seen. Granted, there are good Drow, but we also see Beholders that certainly aren't evil...see Spectator Beholder. Or, so I don't have to rely on an awful joke for my argument, the Monstrous Manual also lists non-evil Beholder-kin.
With regards to language, it also says: "All beholders speak their own language, which is also understood by all beholder-kin."

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Then, if we want to step outside the BG game world and view traditional monsters in a different light, et's start with the drow: The only thing we see in this drow city is adults.  How reasonable is this?  They certainly have children?  They included a few examples of drow who did not feel as other, perhaps more wicked, drow did - Solaufein and Phaere, even  the worshippers of Vhaerun and possibly Jarlaxe.  They are all murderous drow with no capacity or capabilty to change, perhaps leave?
And what says this isn't the case with the numerous Kua-Toa, Beholdes, Illithids, and whatever else you happen to slaughter?

Quote
But one thing I will say - no matter how many times I play that through I still can't bring myself to corrupt that Kuo-Toan pool.  That would effectively kill their race, as well as being an optional act.
This is where it gets sketchy, because this sort of genocide certainly isn't very nice.

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Is this your attempt at gauging the reactions?
You mean players' reactions? I love gauging reactions, not so I can mod by democracy, but to see all the alternative viewpoints and reassess for myself.

Quote
I didn't realize that the PC gets a virtue increase for freeing Viconia, I assume they get a virtue decrease for letting her burn?  ...what was the question again?
I haven't implemented a Virtue penalty for letting her die. Yay, time to expand the discussion. Viconia is being killed because she is a drow, not based on any past actions. Saving her from this fate is virtuous. On the other hand, she IS evil, and as such, it doesn't seem appropriate to dictate that leaving her lowers Virtue.

[EDIT] And just for clarification, Virtue v14 is NOT going to include an Improved Ust Natha component, whatever else happens. :)

Offline jester

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2004, 09:26:26 AM »
Humanoid (cheap try to include humanoid races discovered after we made contact) races seem to have a tendency to refrain from killing anything that resembles them closely (pets are not included in this ranking).
The drow don't seem to have any problem killing you if they find out who you are.

Right.  ;) Which is why their alignment is prob not LG and their virtue wouldn't be close to any ranger and paladin. Just because they do it does not make you any more virtuous doing it yourself, I think. Obviously it is your mod, hence your call, but a discussion can highlight the reasoning behind some decisions. Since the question of ethics is a huge thing to tackle in any philosophical discussion, I do not think that it is a particular shortcoming not to agree in many points here. I value the Virtue component as the quintessential addition to BG, without it alignment doesn't make any sense and is a mere label which allows the 'good' guys to stand as what they are no matter how vile their deeds.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2004, 09:35:53 AM by jester »
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2004, 10:57:19 AM »
Right.  ;) Which is why their alignment is prob not LG and their virtue wouldn't be close to any ranger and paladin. Just because they do it does not make you any more virtuous doing it yourself, I think.
Right, but I'm saying that they're not so different from all the other monsters you go and slaughter when you don't have to. It's probably not virtuous, but it's pretty presumptuous to slap a massive Virtue hit on for it.

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Obviously it is your mod, hence your call, but a discussion can highlight the reasoning behind some decisions.
I am strongly opposed to a "IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY MOD GO MAKE YOUR OWN, N00B" philosophy. If you don't agree with something, please continue to point it out. :)

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2004, 12:37:29 PM »
Right, so you don't need to clear out either the Beholder nest or the Drow city, even though they'll both attack you given the chance.
Well, yeah, you're pretty much invading them. With the exception of the drow, whom you're merely infiltrating for the purposes of recovering the dragon eggs. You can leave all places alive.

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Beholder, Kuo-Tao, etc, are more easily demonized because they seem to lack language. Ultimately, I guess, what makes a monster a monster is in lacking the ability to change; lacking reason, wisdom, and ultimately, capacity for compassion. Feel free to expand on or contract this - you bring up an interesting point.
The Drow we meet in Ust Natha don't seem to be particulary compassionate from what I've seen. Granted, there are good Drow, but we also see Beholders that certainly aren't evil...see Spectator Beholder. Or, so I don't have to rely on an awful joke for my argument, the Monstrous Manual also lists non-evil Beholder-kin.
With regards to language, it also says: "All beholders speak their own language, which is also understood by all beholder-kin."
the operative word was 'seem' in the first sentance. The drow aren't taught compassion, it is true, but what does (even an unmodded) Solaufein display? The capacity.. it doesn't necessarily have to be realized. We put murderers in jail daily in hopes of reforming them - not the best example, based on the current system, but that's the idea ..second to putting them somewhere they couldn't bother us.

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Quote
Then, if we want to step outside the BG game world and view traditional monsters in a different light, et's start with the drow: The only thing we see in this drow city is adults. How reasonable is this? They certainly have children? They included a few examples of drow who did not feel as other, perhaps more wicked, drow did - Solaufein and Phaere, even the worshippers of Vhaerun and possibly Jarlaxe. They are all murderous drow with no capacity or capabilty to change, perhaps leave?
And what says this isn't the case with the numerous Kua-Toa, Beholdes, Illithids, and whatever else you happen to slaughter?
Never said it wasn't.. I was trying to narrow my focus. I'm arguing for a group of humanoids that I feel I can ascribe the same traits a human has. Besides, I'm the one saying we don't have to slaughter anything, remember?

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But one thing I will say - no matter how many times I play that through I still can't bring myself to corrupt that Kuo-Toan pool. That would effectively kill their race, as well as being an optional act.
This is where it gets sketchy, because this sort of genocide certainly isn't very nice.
Now I'm confused. They are both acts designed to wipe out a group of people; where's the line?

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Is this your attempt at gauging the reactions?
You mean players' reactions? I love gauging reactions, not so I can mod by democracy, but to see all the alternative viewpoints and reassess for myself.
mod by democracy.. jesus, you guys use that term like it's profane. The rest of the statement I can, at least, respect; yes, the players reactions. :)

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I didn't realize that the PC gets a virtue increase for freeing Viconia, I assume they get a virtue decrease for letting her burn? ...what was the question again?
I haven't implemented a Virtue penalty for letting her die. Yay, time to expand the discussion. Viconia is being killed because she is a drow, not based on any past actions. Saving her from this fate is virtuous. On the other hand, she IS evil, and as such, it doesn't seem appropriate to dictate that leaving her lowers Virtue.
Then why does saving her raise it? Seems like a big contradiction. Saving her from false justice is virtuous leaving her to burn is not. If you really want to go the evil route, I'm sure you know that the fanatics are evil as well. So what makes her evil any greater than theirs? This would go double if taking the unimplemented lycanthropy into account.
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Offline jester

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2004, 01:59:36 PM »
I am trying a different angle to highlight my prob. Virtue changes in two possibel ways (not how they are scripted behind the scene, but as they appear to work for the player):

Very simplified Viconia sequence (numbers are made up to show my point):

-Free her (burning her is evil) virtue +1
-Let the b**** burn (there you have it) virtue -1
or
-Sorry, you had it coming (she is evil and a drow like the UN folks) virtue +/- 0

The 'only net change shows' concept:

-Defending yourself against zealots during the act: +/-0 (or should nullify any virtue hit from killing those opponents, because you should have the right to defend yourself, without Aikido being properly implemented)
-Freeing someone from certain death and injustice: virtue +5
-Freeing someone evil -2
-Freeing a drow -2
-net change virtue +1 ( obviously corresponding to choices one and three from the simplified example)

For the drow city this would mean that the net change would weigh any good reasons for doing so that justify the means against the virtue hits you get for the mere act, which could be very tricky given the fact that I have been walking into every place on a map pillaging it so far (even as a paladin). So why I have to slaughter them is a touchy point to define.

For my liking even killing Firkraag or the Shadow dragon could be debatable, because you do not have to kill them to fullfill the quest. I am not saying that none of this is tempting, but you would end up bouncing between the netral and lower good range in game for doing everything that just looks swell on your resume as an adventurer.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2004, 02:10:15 PM by jester »
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discharger12

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2004, 06:35:10 PM »
I have my own little ideas on virtue.

Your virtue stays the same is

-someone attacks you and you defend yourself

-you spot an evil creature such as a beholder, ogre, minotaur, shadow, etc. who you know would strike at someone in an instant *

-a creature is plotting to kill (such as the skinner)

Your virtue goes lower if

-you kill a good creature (obviously)

-you kill a creature whether good or bad, and you know it won't kill/hurt anything

-You kill a creature regardless if it is nice, or evil, but because of its race

* Of course minotaurs and ogres can be nice, as you see in Umar Hills, but this is quite unusual, and also the other ogre in the 'Gong quest' But a creature like a shadow is obviously not going to be a good creature. I mean, if you are a shadow your soul has to be evil.

Offline Kish

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2004, 06:38:59 PM »
I have my own little ideas on virtue.

Your virtue stays the same is

-you spot an evil creature such as a beholder, ogre, minotaur, shadow, etc. who you know would strike at someone in an instant *

Your virtue goes lower if

-You kill a creature regardless if it is nice, or evil, but because of its race

These seem oxymoronic, presuming that when you say "spot" you mean "spot and kill out of hand.".
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discharger12

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2004, 06:49:25 PM »
Now that I look at it, I guess it is oxymoronic..  :P

I guess for 'virtue stays the same' I would change it to "you talk to a creature who you can tell is going to kill"

That better?

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2004, 02:02:36 AM »
But you're going to kill.  So by that logic the creature is equally able to attack you.
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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2004, 03:25:37 PM »
But you're going to kill. So by that logic the creature is equally able to attack you.

heh, well I did say it was an idea.


Offline Kish

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2004, 03:01:52 PM »
I only just noticed this.
On the other hand, she IS evil, and as such, it doesn't seem appropriate to dictate that leaving her lowers Virtue.
She's going to be burned alive.  I'd say leaving her (or anyone) to that fate should absolutely lower Virtue.  Cutting her down and killing her quickly, no; letting her die by torture, yes.
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Offline neriana

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2004, 03:19:38 PM »
On the other hand, she IS evil, and as such, it doesn't seem appropriate to dictate that leaving her lowers Virtue.
She's going to be burned alive. I'd say leaving her (or anyone) to that fate should absolutely lower Virtue. Cutting her down and killing her quickly, no; letting her die by torture, yes.
Which is another reason Keldorn's reaction to Viconia seems out-of-character to me.

Beholders and illithids are from another plane. The only reason they come to Faerun is to kill, dominate, do other evil stuff, right? Unless they're summoned like that poor beholder guarding the chest. Besides, and maybe more importantly, they try to kill you first. I don't think killing anything that's automatically red-circled is wrong. The Underdark quest for body parts raises a moral quandary, but since you could wander into the various lairs and get attacked anyway, I don't know how it could affect Virtue.

A person's alignment could be evil, but if s/he doesn't attack you or DO anything that you absolutely know of that warrants death (i.e., the guy who killed the halfling boy), killing him/her is still wrong. A person's alignment may be good, but if s/he attacks you, defending yourself is not wrong.
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Offline Kish

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2004, 03:25:00 PM »
On the other hand, she IS evil, and as such, it doesn't seem appropriate to dictate that leaving her lowers Virtue.
She's going to be burned alive.  I'd say leaving her (or anyone) to that fate should absolutely lower Virtue.  Cutting her down and killing her quickly, no; letting her die by torture, yes.
Which is another reason Keldorn's reaction to Viconia seems out-of-character to me.
There's also the fact that she's about to be executed by an evil cleric yelling about an evil god (Beshaba).  "Kill them all and let Torm sort them out" might be an understandable reaction, but not, "Stand back and let her be burned alive by a mob in the name of an evil god."
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Offline Zandilar

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2004, 08:15:00 AM »
Heya,

On the other hand, she IS evil, and as such, it doesn't seem appropriate to dictate that leaving her lowers Virtue.
She's going to be burned alive.  I'd say leaving her (or anyone) to that fate should absolutely lower Virtue.  Cutting her down and killing her quickly, no; letting her die by torture, yes.
Which is another reason Keldorn's reaction to Viconia seems out-of-character to me.
There's also the fact that she's about to be executed by an evil cleric yelling about an evil god (Beshaba).  "Kill them all and let Torm sort them out" might be an understandable reaction, but not, "Stand back and let her be burned alive by a mob in the name of an evil god."

Burning at the stake was not a nice way to go, because it was frightening in the extreme for the person being burned... But... generally speaking the poor person looses consciousness and dies due to smoke inhalation very quickly... So they're really not being burned alive.

However, I'd agree with the idea that leaving her to die that way would be a hit against virtue - and Keldorn would be all for bringing Viconia before a judge, and letting them deal with her - being as Torm is pretty chummy with Tyr, rather than letting Behsabans (of all people!) take "justice" into their own bloodied hands. (Beshaba is the Maid of Misfortune, the goddess of bad luck, she has nothing to do with justice!)


Offline SimDing0

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Re: Attack Ust Natha!
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2004, 10:36:41 AM »
I only just noticed this.
On the other hand, she IS evil, and as such, it doesn't seem appropriate to dictate that leaving her lowers Virtue.
She's going to be burned alive.  I'd say leaving her (or anyone) to that fate should absolutely lower Virtue.  Cutting her down and killing her quickly, no; letting her die by torture, yes.

Much embarassment as Ding0 realises this is already how it works. I'm not sure what I was talking about earlier on, sorry everyone...

 

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