Author Topic: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep  (Read 9724 times)

Offline jester

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Why is that??

But you don't know it's Demogorgon until you're either about to do battle, or have to choose between doing battle or abandoning the Knights of the Vigil.  (Setting aside the other dodgy aspects of the situation, like the Knights' attempt to set you up.)
I always felt by being betrayed by the knights the morality of the situation is clear. Freeing/fighting DG is another matter, but  I just did to them what they wanted to do unto me. Fairness?? This could be a real challenge for a paladin.
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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2004, 08:58:02 PM »
Why is that??

But you don't know it's Demogorgon until you're either about to do battle, or have to choose between doing battle or abandoning the Knights of the Vigil.† (Setting aside the other dodgy aspects of the situation, like the Knights' attempt to set you up.)
I always felt by being betrayed by the knights the morality of the situation is clear. Freeing/fighting DG is another matter, but† I just did to them what they wanted to do unto me. Fairness?? This could be a real challenge for a paladin.
''

That it would

Offline jester

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2004, 09:09:51 PM »
So taking a virtue hit for it is OMFG WRONG.
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Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2004, 11:20:36 PM »
What about the golden rule.  Do unto others as you wish done to yourself.  They may not follow it, but from a virtue standpoint, that is no excuse for your player not to follow the rule.
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Offline jester

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2004, 04:10:38 AM »
I think that is exactly the theme of my mourning, Caed. I am looking for justice with no other aouthorities to turn to than the Gods involved, but then I could just seal the prison IIRC or Do they have to be inside. If it is not so, it stands as the will of Helm that he is in there (demo) and it is all about Ordrens duties (being a Knight of the Vigil) not mine. His betrayal was the first strike and .... while I am babbling on this sparks a technical quetion. I can suspend Virtue for that occasion right? Setting it back up would not make my paladin unfallen.
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Offline SimDing0ô

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2004, 04:12:53 AM »
A paladin would probably not punish them by sending them to their deaths in such an outright deceitful manner.

Offline jester

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2004, 04:45:55 AM »
A paladin would probably not punish them by sending them to their deaths in such an outright deceitful manner.
Thouh speaketh the thruth, master of virtue. Did not answer my technical question though.

@virtue and paladins
Can a paladin employ 'evil means' to achieve good? Can he betray the betrayers to bring them to justice? This holds also true as a question in general. Is he limited to do good to achieve good or else fail?

Virtue implements the notion of virtue in RL not as a set of general transcendent rules but case by case attaching values to the decision tree, thus it hinges on how you have judged the situation to be played per alignment. Hence my technical question, if I need to disagree. If that did not clear up my point I need a stronger coffee now.
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Offline SimDing0ô

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2004, 12:04:17 PM »
While killing something is considered evil, killing evil creatures isn't. You'd lose a LOT of Virtue if this were the case. On the other hand, killing something in a deceitful, spiteful, or generally nasty way IS considered evil. The best example of this I can think of offhand is wishing for Jafir to die a slow and painful death in UB Kalah. It's often not so clear cut, and one of the things I enjoy about Virtue is the constant raging debates on what should be considered good/evil.

Offline jester

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2004, 12:24:39 PM »
I see your point now and you are right. Thanks for taking the time to clear this up. ;)

I guess I go back to being the usual CN jester instead of trying to feel all high and mighty as a pally. heh
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Offline Rathwellin the Bard

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2004, 06:30:12 AM »
I havenít played virtue yet ... itís waiting on me to finish my current TuTu game.† However when reading this topic something occurred to me.

More that once Iíve Ďaccidentallyí sent Ordan to his doom.† Sure you have an option in the opening conversation to clear up that the imprisoned one is not dead ... and you have an option to lie right off the bat ... or you can bitch at him.† The latter is usually what I do.† I canít imagine most of my characters being anything but ticked.† However if you bitch first then you are never given a chance to clear things up later in the conversation.† Ordan just takes off before you have a chance.  In game role playing wise I think what I'm looking for is to let him know that my PC know that he tricked him & want Ordan to come clean about this and possibly tell him why before coming clean himself about not having killed the Imprisoned One.  Of course Bio didn't give us this choice ... but that's meta game stuff that the PC wouldn't know.

I *donít* think that the PC should be penalized virtue wise for choosing this conversation option.

If he lies outright, then yes.† But itís very possible for the misdirection to be unintentional.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2004, 06:33:49 AM by Rathwellin the Bard »
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2004, 08:48:10 AM »
I *donít* think that the PC should be penalized virtue wise for choosing this conversation option.

If he lies outright, then yes.† But itís very possible for the misdirection to be unintentional.
she/he lies, by misdirection and omission, when picking this option.  I think the PC should be penalized if we know that the demogorgon is in there; otoh, if we go out there and say that we didn't complete the task, thereby causing Odren to storm in there himself, that's another matter entirely.  (I've always wanted the option to beat the shit out'a him.)  So that's the way I usually play it; putting him where he should have been in the first place.  :P
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Offline Rathwellin the Bard

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2004, 10:28:16 AM »
The PC knows Demogorgon is in there.
The PC knows that Ordan & Co. tricked him, trying to seal him up with the monster.
The PC knows that Demogorgon wants him to trick Ordan.

But the PC may not intend to actually do so.

Basically the PC is given a choice to come clean *only* in the first dialogue.  If he complains about being tricked or *anything* other than coming clean right off Ordan heads in.  There is *no* way for the PC to know this in advance without metagame info.

The PC is not nessisarly trying to misdirect or lie by omission if he just complains to Ordan about being tricked.
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Offline SimDing0ô

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2004, 11:34:40 AM »
I don't particularly like the Bioware dialogue paths here, but in any case, in the next release the penalty will only occur if you lie and tell them it's safe to go in.

Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2004, 12:35:37 PM »

 what about a bonus (perhaps the only bonus in the scenario, i don't know if there's already an outcome that gives one but i can't think of another that "should") for going in to save the asshole after he (non-or-less-trickedly) goes down to check it out (he gets to learn a lesson and you get total moral high ground and a shot at a million xp! woo!)
 rather unrelated - is tactics-improved-DG worth more than a million?
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Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2004, 12:42:19 PM »
Tactics affects Demogorgon now?
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2004, 03:36:38 PM »
No.
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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2004, 06:11:21 PM »
 pardon me.  ascension-mod-enhanced DG.  change in xp? 
 entirely wrong thread?  ::)
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2004, 08:41:42 AM »
You go in and check, if you survive you can tell us;-)

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Offline aernor

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2004, 10:18:31 AM »
Sorry to come to this debate so late, but there is a "correct" option for Odren and Co., though in spite of my best efforts I've only ever got it once.
It is possible to tell him the truth. He will admit his failure and then go on a pilgramage to redeem himself. The PC is then free to imprison DG -- imprison because killing DG will be a sort of release.
Obviously this solution holds the most virtue.

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2004, 05:52:09 PM »
Obviously this solution holds the most virtue.
I don't agree that's obvious; it means breaking your word to Demogorgon, and your word should count for something.
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Offline aernor

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2004, 05:50:35 AM »
Keeping your word to the Prince of Demons? Perhaps we need to speak to Keldorn. I should have thought saving the souls of Odren and co. weighed more heavily, but I think we can agree that role playing is the most important issue here, trying within the limits of the game, to play a character.


Offline SimDing0ô

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2004, 06:09:32 AM »
I'd also contest the notion that lying is innately evil.

Offline Murdane

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2004, 03:12:42 PM »
Well, paladins aren't supposed to tell lies even to evil characters (they *can* just remain silent though).  I know not every character is a paladin, but it's something to think about.


Offline UnholyAngel

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2004, 11:03:10 AM »
I'd also contest the notion that lying is innately evil.

In Germany at least there are some stories about people who have tricked the devil and saved their souls in that way.

Considering that the devil is the "elemental evil", would you say deveiving is evil?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2004, 08:04:10 AM by UnholyAngel »

Offline neriana

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Re: Virtue penalty for sending Odren to his death at Watcher's Keep
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2004, 07:16:16 PM »
I don't think it's wrong to lie to Demogorgon. It's your only chance of escaping. There's the question of whether it's OK to lie to someone who is evil. Maybe not, in some cases, but it would be virtuous to lie to a Nazi to escape a concentration camp. This isn't quite the same, since Demogorgon isn't the one who got you stuck in Watcher's Keep; however, he is evil and he is keeping you there.

Under the ordinary round of daily existence, lying is wrong. This isn't the ordinary round of daily existence though. I also think paladins should be able to lie, spy, mislead and obfuscate if they have to. It's both stupid and wrong to assault a bandit camp head-on if you can infiltrate it and destroy it from within with a better chance of success.
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