Author Topic: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT  (Read 629 times)

Offline Sergio1992

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 82
Only these components:

- Additional Elminster encounter (seems to be the same as BG:EE)
- Angelo notices Shar-teel. (seems to be the same as BG:EE? Didn't check first-hand).


Advise trying:

Chapter 6 dialogue restoration.



To check:
- Area restoration + Minor dialogue restoration + Audio restorations (all of these seems to be integrated into BG:EE but I would like to understand if the component is the same)
- All the other restorations (they don't seem harmful but the fact they weren't added on BG:EE makes me doubtful).
- Permanent corpses (Seems to be the same in BG:EE)
- Chapter 6 dialogue enhancement
- Safana the flirt (would like to check what BG:EE does)
- Duke Eltan component

For chapter 6 + restorations, I would like an extensive readme

I wonder how many of the components above are actually already in BGT and BG1NPC project.


Would add if it was an exact copy of BG:EE content:
- Branwen and Tranzig
- Kivan and Tazok
- Area restoration + Minor dialogue restoration +  Audio restorations
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 03:32:10 PM by Sergio1992 »

Offline jastey

  • Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1392
  • Gender: Female
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2019, 09:08:13 AM »
If you say extensive readme I guess the description in the readme is not sufficient?
Quote
34. Chapter 6 Dialogue Restorations: This new component was provided by AstroBryGuy. Did you ever want to have a little chat with Tethtoril in Candlekeep Library? Did it ever bug you that the Gatewarden was waiting for you on the 6th floor, no matter how fast you go there after talking to Koveras? This component changes that. Now, you can visit Tethtoril, have a little chat, and then stumble into Koveras' clever scheme. Many thanks to Salk for suggestions for this component.

What do you mean by "to check" for Duke Eltan component?

Offline Sergio1992

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 82
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2019, 09:52:34 AM »
If you say extensive readme I guess the description in the readme is not sufficient?
Quote
34. Chapter 6 Dialogue Restorations: This new component was provided by AstroBryGuy. Did you ever want to have a little chat with Tethtoril in Candlekeep Library? Did it ever bug you that the Gatewarden was waiting for you on the 6th floor, no matter how fast you go there after talking to Koveras? This component changes that. Now, you can visit Tethtoril, have a little chat, and then stumble into Koveras' clever scheme. Many thanks to Salk for suggestions for this component.

What do you mean by "to check" for Duke Eltan component?

When I talk about the extensive readmes, I'm referring to the fact that I would like to see how much was just straight out "restored" and how much was actually "filled" by modders.
This is why I ask even in this very same topic what BG:EE made "canon" with the restoration, so I can form an opinion about what I should be adding and what not: that is not to mean that I find BG:EE canon, but they have different tools(and point of views) to judge what to actually integrate into the game and I would like to see what was deemed "canon" to find a pattern, even in the component themselves.

I don't know if I was clear, but I truly hope so.



For Duke Eltan, the "check" is related to the fact that I still have to play it. I don't review stuff if I didn't play it before.

For your comment about Chapter 6, is the restoration only for these three characters? What did they say before? And what was there to restore and what was added. Maybe I'm a little pedantic, but the mod is named Unfinished Bussiness and not "thoughtful additions" or "dialogue tweaks".


Offline Salk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 857
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2020, 04:01:42 AM »
Personally I feel the Chapter 6 restoration makes perfect sense and I believe it is a great addition to the game.

I read your comment about how the developers may have not wanted for every player to be able to explore the last floor of the library but it honestly doesn't seem to hold any kind of weight in its rationale which was based on "the Player could just ignore every character walking towards them and head up the stairs until it reaches the last floor". Very flimsy, to say the least.

The Player is not supposed to run away from scripted encounters.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 04:02:44 AM by Salk »

Offline Sergio1992

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 82
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2020, 02:20:19 AM »
Personally I feel the Chapter 6 restoration makes perfect sense and I believe it is a great addition to the game.

I read your comment about how the developers may have not wanted for every player to be able to explore the last floor of the library but it honestly doesn't seem to hold any kind of weight in its rationale which was based on "the Player could just ignore every character walking towards them and head up the stairs until it reaches the last floor". Very flimsy, to say the least.

The Player is not supposed to run away from scripted encounters.
Your rationale wasn't ignored in my decision.

One example of what I meant is that no one blocks the player from actually using a thief with HIS and explore every inch of the library (deliberately ignoring the scripted encounters) and see last floor's content.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 10:15:29 AM by Sergio1992 »

Offline Salk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 857
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2020, 10:27:38 AM »
Hello, sergio1992.

Of course the player can explore the whole library with a Thief. The Player could, in theory, explore the whole game using invisibility and solo mode. But that is not the way the game was meant to be played and it would go against its own nature. The "normal" thing to do is to explore new areas with a whole party of joinable NPCs and use stealth only when the situation seems to hint strongly to it.

There is simply no real valid reason for rushing up to the last floor of the Candlekeep library, penalizing the Player that does not do that with missing very relevant content and material.

if anything I would find more reasonable if something as odd as the arrest of CHARNAME as soon as (s)he puts foot on the sixth floor happened if the player started going around the Sword Coast exploring using one invisible/hidden in shadow party member. The odd behaviour would be much more justifiable in that case.

Thanks for your reviews though.

I wish there was more people out there that followed your initiative.

Cheers!

 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 10:35:50 AM by Salk »

Offline Isewein

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 12
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2020, 06:12:01 AM »
For what it's worth, I never realised this order of events was not in the original game, and now that I do I can say I really appreciate UB's additions to Chapter VI. It's great to be able to explore Candlekeep a bit more.

Offline Sergio1992

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 82
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2020, 07:16:24 AM »
Salk, I agree with you, only partially, though: the player may not be interested into scouting around with a thief with HiS/invisibility, but there are roleplay decision where Charname could make it happen.

Also, this component makes it easier (or should I say "possible"?) to kill Tethoril and Ulraunt, with seemingly no effects in the later cutscene.

By the way, may I ask why you chose to make the guards "ambush" you in the same floor of the room with Iron throne chiefs, rather than the floor above? (or do I remember wrong?)



« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 09:21:18 AM by Sergio1992 »

Offline Azazello

  • The Anti-Spammer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 400
  • Gender: Male
    • Azazello’s Music Profile at Last.fm
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2020, 10:19:16 PM »
Of course the player can explore the whole library with a Thief. The Player could, in theory, explore the whole game using invisibility and solo mode. But that is not the way the game was meant to be played and it would go against its own nature. The "normal" thing to do is to explore new areas with a whole party of joinable NPCs and use stealth only when the situation seems to hint strongly to it.

There is simply no real valid reason for rushing up to the last floor of the Candlekeep library, penalizing the Player that does not do that with missing very relevant content and material.

if anything I would find more reasonable if something as odd as the arrest of CHARNAME as soon as (s)he puts foot on the sixth floor happened if the player started going around the Sword Coast exploring using one invisible/hidden in shadow party member. The odd behaviour would be much more justifiable in that case.
Hear, hear!

As Salk goes, so goes my nation.
Community Contributions
Level 1 NPCs * gMinion: expanded TP2 for MegaInstalls * PSM (PSQM): expanded scripts for Melanthium * Weimer's-Tactics: revised TP2 for MegaInstalls * non-detectable Cloak of Non-Detection ??
================================================================
"Deception has many faces. Truth...has only one."

Offline Salk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 857
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2020, 01:00:11 AM »
Hello again!

Salk, I agree with you, only partially, though: the player may not be interested into scouting around with a thief with HiS/invisibility, but there are roleplay decision where Charname could make it happen.

I'm not sure that I understand exactly what you mean here but if I do, isn't it just what I said as well? Exploring a new area with a single and invisible party member can make sense sometimes, sure. But it can't be the expected behavior in all situations. The Candlekeep library is an egregious example of a place where the player should not be required to send an invisible scout up the stairs without exploring the rest of the lower floors or avoiding talking to the people in there. The Candlekeep library is supposed to be a sanctuary and a safe haven, not a dungeon crawling with enemies and traps.

BG1 UB (and many other restoration modifications for many different games) does restore material that is honestly perhaps not important to take back into the game. The FedEx missions are already too many and inconsequential additional NPCs are not adding much either. I do understand much of the cut content is cut for a reason. But in this case I find the restoration one of the most meaningful.

Quote
Also, this component makes it easier (or should I say "possible"?) to kill Tethoril and Ulraunt, with seemingly no effects in the later cutscene.

They should not be killable, of course. But are they? I have not yet tried to do that but if I remember correctly, Tethoril is unkillable by default. Ulraunt should be as well.

Quote
By the way, may I ask why you chose to make the guards "ambush" you in the same floor of the room with Iron throne chiefs, rather than the floor above? (or do I remember wrong?)

I didn't design the BG1 UB component. I had inspired the author (AstroBryGuy) with my suggestion. I do have my own version of it (unpublished) but AstroBryGuy is much better than I am at coding and I trust what he did was a better job than my own.

Said that, if the arrest happens on the third floor I only agree 100%. You are arrested for the murder of the Iron Throne leaders and their bodies are on the third floor. What better floor for the arrest? What else would you suggest?

Cheers!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 01:15:36 AM by Salk »

Offline Sergio1992

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 82
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2020, 01:37:32 PM »
They are unkillable (sort of): Ulraunt has 932 hp and Tethoril 981. That's in BG:EE. Maybe Ulraunt should leave as Tethoril to prevent odd thinking by the player?

Salk, thank you for having actually shared your opinion once again.

The place of the arrest is fine - after all, Tethoril asks you to come out ;)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 05:00:26 PM by Sergio1992 »

Offline jastey

  • Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1392
  • Gender: Female
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2020, 01:20:11 AM »
I just played the whole incident in Candlekeep by not talking to "Koveras" when first met: the original game accounts for the player being in the 6th floor and talking to Tethtoril (who again tells about Grion's items) and Ulraunt (which just tells the PC to leave him alone). The warden on the floor then just tells that Koveras wants to talk to him. Then, after talking to Koveras and the IT leaders, the arrest is outside (maybe also on the 6th floor but I didn't go there again).
So, as far as I understood (I didn't play the ub component yet), the behavior with this component is more or less the original game behavior, only expanded to also happen after the player talked to Koveras already.

I also think this component is great addition. In my first playthrough, I didn't collect Gorions items but was arrested on my first scout through the library, so my PC got the info by Tamoko and I felt quite stumped when I heard later that there were a letter I never encountered while playing as I thought it important to get this note from Gorion (because I never understood why he didn't have the urge to communicate the heritage with the PC in some way, so this letter closed the gap). I also think that bg1npc made a nice addition by letting Tethtoril give the letter to the PC when freeing them in case the letter was not collected.

Offline Sergio1992

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 82
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2020, 03:14:04 AM »
I just played the whole incident in Candlekeep by not talking to "Koveras" when first met: the original game accounts for the player being in the 6th floor and talking to Tethtoril (who again tells about Grion's items) and Ulraunt (which just tells the PC to leave him alone). The warden on the floor then just tells that Koveras wants to talk to him. Then, after talking to Koveras and the IT leaders, the arrest is outside (maybe also on the 6th floor but I didn't go there again).
So, as far as I understood (I didn't play the ub component yet), the behavior with this component is more or less the original game behavior, only expanded to also happen after the player talked to Koveras already.

I also think this component is great addition. In my first playthrough, I didn't collect Gorions items but was arrested on my first scout through the library, so my PC got the info by Tamoko and I felt quite stumped when I heard later that there were a letter I never encountered while playing as I thought it important to get this note from Gorion (because I never understood why he didn't have the urge to communicate the heritage with the PC in some way, so this letter closed the gap). I also think that bg1npc made a nice addition by letting Tethtoril give the letter to the PC when freeing them in case the letter was not collected.

- One correction: with the component installed, the guard in the sixth floor won't tell you about Koveras (no matter if you talked with him or not). He will just say:
"Sorry, young one, but ye're not to be allowed in here. Now go run along and do somethun' useful". But he won't act on what he said.
Food for thought: maybe the guard should make a reference to Koveras, as in the original game? Salk's decision.

- Note for Salk: the bug with the watcher on the sixth floor continously poking you happens only if you have already talked to Koveras. If you didn't, he won't even come to you.

- Another note: Jastey, you mention the fact that you missed the letter in one of your playthroughs; I played chapter 6 and I realized that you'll always miss the letter if you kill Rieltar and the others, no matter if you installed the dialogue restorations or not.
@Salk, would you give a thought about your mod touching the "evil" path?

- Also, the component removes the dialogue option to resist the watchers and have a scripted death.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 04:19:42 AM by Sergio1992 »

Offline jastey

  • Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1392
  • Gender: Female
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2020, 07:28:02 AM »
Quote
- Note for Salk: the bug with the watcher on the sixth floor continously poking you happens only if you have already talked to Koveras. If you didn't, he won't even come to you.
Ah, if that is so then letting the original Koveras dialogue flow would be the easiest fix to that stutter, I reckon.

Quote
Jastey, you mention the fact that you missed the letter in one of your playthroughs; I played chapter 6 and I realized that you'll always miss the letter if you kill Rieltar and the others, no matter if you installed the dialogue restorations or not.
Indeed, I don't know the component's exact content. I thought that it would enable to kill the leaders and then be arrested outside (but then I do not recall how the original game flows after you actually kill the leaders, either.)

Offline Salk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 857
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2020, 05:29:23 AM »
Hello!

- Note for Salk: the bug with the watcher on the sixth floor continuously poking you happens only if you have already talked to Koveras. If you didn't, he won't even come to you.

This is because its script checks for a variable ("Criminal") which is set to 1 after talking to Koveras.

Quote
@Salk, would you give a thought about your mod touching the "evil" path?

I'm sorry but what mod are you talking about?

However the letter, if I recall correctly, is a very important piece of material for the game's narrative and it would be a shame to miss on it because CHARNAME decided to kill the Iron Throne leaders so it would be good to make the Ch6 Dialogue Restoration component do there exactly what BG1 NPC does. Have Tethtoril give the letter to CHARNAME during the visit in prison (if that is what it does).

Cheers!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 05:34:50 AM by Salk »

Offline Sergio1992

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 82
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2020, 02:46:32 AM »
Hello!

- Note for Salk: the bug with the watcher on the sixth floor continuously poking you happens only if you have already talked to Koveras. If you didn't, he won't even come to you.

This is because its script checks for a variable ("Criminal") which is set to 1 after talking to Koveras.

Quote
@Salk, would you give a thought about your mod touching the "evil" path?

I'm sorry but what mod are you talking about?

However the letter, if I recall correctly, is a very important piece of material for the game's narrative and it would be a shame to miss on it because CHARNAME decided to kill the Iron Throne leaders so it would be good to make the Ch6 Dialogue Restoration component do there exactly what BG1 NPC does. Have Tethtoril give the letter to CHARNAME during the visit in prison (if that is what it does).

Cheers!
Sorry, I phrased it badly. I was still referring to the component "chapter 6 dialogue restoration".

Salk, may I ask you wouldn't just expand the chapter 6 dialogue restoration to happen even for charnames that have killed the iron throne leaders? Or why not make the arrest happen when you are leaving to the exterior?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 12:46:19 PM by Sergio1992 »

Offline Salk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 857
Re: My opinion on what I recommend to install + questions about BGT
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2020, 05:19:11 AM »
Hello!

Salk, may I ask you wouldn't just expand the chapter 6 dialogue restoration to happen even for charnames that have killed the iron throne leaders? Or why not make the arrest happen when you are leaving to the exterior?

Since I am still unable to test the component, can you please tell me what happens with Tethtoril if you have killed the iron throne leaders?

And what happens if you haven't?

Also, the arrest outside is still theoretically possible, from what I can see from the code. When the Gatewarden is spawned for your arrest on the third floor, can you see what happens if you run away and exit the library before he gets to speak to you?

Cheers!

 

With Quick-Reply you can write a post when viewing a topic without loading a new page. You can still use bulletin board code and smileys as you would in a normal post.

Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What color is grass?:
What is the seventh word in this sentence?:
What is five minus two (use the full word)?: