Author Topic: weidu next generation - next version should abandon auto-overwrite design  (Read 2644 times)

Offline CamDawg

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The point is a simple one: we at least know that mod has been tested and released with that Weidu version. 
The problem with this is that ... see this ... no idea where the problem is, but it HAS TO BE IN THE FACT THAT THE WEIDU.EXE WAS NOT UPDATED !!!!! I would assume that the weidu.exe in the SCS's .exe doesn't know what the eet in the game_is function is, in the cdtweaks .tpa -file is... but that's just my assumption. Feel free to reproduce and verify your own theories and show how NOT updating the weidu would be so much better than doing it. When it FAILS in a regular mod install when the OS doesn't allow the update.

To be fair we don't know that yet. I suspect this has more to do with SCS' easy-install script which IIRC invokes WeiDU directly instead of setup-scs.

And yes, this is just an SCS bug.
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Offline subtledoctor

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The point is a simple one: we at least know that mod has been tested and released with that Weidu version. 
The problem with this is that ... see this ...

I've posted in a dozen different places that the SCS v30 autoinstall feature dies not work with EE 2.0+ games. It's been that way for two years now. Whose responsibility is it if a player ignores or misses that? Surely not Weidu's.

As for EET: realistically, separating out GAME_IS ~eet~ from GAME_IS ~bg2ee~ was probably a mistake, for the same reason it was a mistake separating SoD from BGEE. EET runs ON BG2EE; therefore GAME_IS ~bg2ee~ should probably return true for EET games, to stay on the safe side of compatibility with older mods. Mods trying to exclusively carve out EET could use GAME_INCLUDES or something like that. It's probably too late to fix this the way SoD was fixed... so whatever. But that would be a *better* and more targeted fix for this issue, than applying a universal mandatory auto-update scheme.

Not to mention, mods being actively developed can of course update Weidu as needed, and mods that are not actively developed can be fixpack'd and/or hotfix'd as needed. As SCS has been.

Of course this is not a rant on how Weidu currently works - personally, for my installs, I like it just fine. Per the thread title, this is simply advocacy to re-think the question of auto-updates in future versions and/or externalizations of its features.

me

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Obviously Alien does, since he claims the version that came with the mod would always work without issues.
I don't think AL|EN ever claimed that.
Then maybe you should go back and re-read what he wrote. He was using the "they changed regexp" as an argument without specifically giving a reason why he prefers the old regexp. He doesn't consider the possibility that maybe the change is for the better; that maybe there was a technical limitation or simply an inherent flaw in the way it was coded.

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The point is a simple one: we at least know that mod has been tested and released with that Weidu version.
It's not that simple. We don't know the extent to which it was tested. Usually, the mod author would've tested it on his pc in a limited environment and assumed it works as long as it doesn't throw errors.

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Best practice, in the absence of any other concerns (!) would pretty clearly be to have each mod use the version of Weidu that it last shipped with.
Best practice, statistically, would be clearly to use the newer Weidu. Chances are, it would have most likely fixed any such boundary cases where Weidu chokes (like the 60000-file limit) or simply bugs in the macros (like that fj_add_are_struct macro that had to be modified several times because there were certain instances when it used to cause crashes).

Offline subtledoctor

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Obviously Alien does, since he claims the version that came with the mod would always work without issues.
I don't think AL|EN ever claimed that.
Then maybe you should go back and re-read what he wrote. He was using the "they changed regexp" as an argument without specifically giving a reason why he prefers the old regexp. He doesn't consider the possibility that maybe the change is for the better; that maybe there was a technical limitation or simply an inherent flaw in the way it was coded.
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Um, yes, he did consider that.  The newer version of regexp is no doubt better; but the .tp2 was written for the older version of regexp, and changing the version of regexp without changing the way the code uses it will almost certainly cause problems, while retaining the older, inferior version of regexp might at least work with the code as written.  Blind change without testing is just, well, dumb.

The point is a simple one: we at least know that mod has been tested and released with that Weidu version.
It's not that simple. We don't know the extent to which it was tested. Usually, the mod author would've tested it on his pc in a limited environment and assumed it works as long as it doesn't throw errors.
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You are correct in the (extremely) limited sense of acknowledging that the operative question is, what information do we have?  We don't know to what extent it was tested (though, of course, you could go back through the forums and check)... but we DO know how much it was tested with the newer, changed version of Weidu: zero.  By simple logic, [>= 0] >
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Of course you may not care a whit about logic... and judging by your trolling on the other forum and general lack of reading comprehension, you don't.  :P

Best practice, in the absence of any other concerns (!) would pretty clearly be to have each mod use the version of Weidu that it last shipped with.
Best practice, statistically, would be clearly to use the newer Weidu.

When using an argument that depends utterly on the word "statistically" for its soundness, you might want to, y'know, provide some statistics that bear it out.  Otherwise the point is worthless.

me

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Typical retarded, narrow-minded response from the not-so-subtle doctor. Why am I not surprised?  ::)

the .tp2 was written for the older version of regexp, and changing the version of regexp without changing the way the code uses it will almost certainly cause problems
The tp2 was wasn't written for any particular version of regexp. The mod author wouldn't have known or cared about how the underlying mechanism worked. All that matters is whether it worked according to the standards. We know it didn't work when pushed to its limits. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been changed. The argument ends there.

You really shouldn't talk about things that are out of your depth. Stick to things you are good at... like whining.  ;)

Offline subtledoctor

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Sigh. As usual the troglodyte stalker has nothing useful to add.

A one-size fits all solution that makes unpredictable changes with no testing, makes no sense. Presuming (very hypothetically) that a new program will be produced that has the capability to manage stack operations separately, mods should ideally be preserved in the state of their last tested configuration.

If updating Weidu would help, rather than hinder, the function of a mod, it would be ridiculously easy to address it with a fixpack.

Offline The Imp

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Sigh. As usual the troglodyte stalker has nothing useful to add.
Not a thing you did listen, but had you actually done so, you would understand that a regexp that concerns 60 000 files in the overwrite folder doesn't work in the v185 even if it was originally programmed for that weidu.exe, while it does in the v24200 todays, no matter were it to ran in with only one renamed weidu.exe in the folder.

And if it's so easy to fix the weidu -programming with a fixpack, then why the hell is there even more than 1 weidu.exe ever released ? (a .exe or whatever OS you use it with)

me

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Seems I've made Dr. Subtle (PhD in Bullshitology) upset.  ;D

A one-size fits all solution that makes unpredictable changes with no testing, makes no sense.
No one said there wouldn't be any testing, genius. That's what betas are for. Using multiple unsupported versions of Weidu concurrently (especially ones that are very old) makes no sense. I wouldn't expect a simpleton like yourself to understand that.

Wisp had already indicated handling stack management outside of Weidu has been on his mind for a while. Nevertheless, your profound suggestion has been duly noted.  ::)

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If updating Weidu would help, rather than hinder, the function of a mod, it would be ridiculously easy to address it with a fixpack.
A fixpack for WeiDU.  ;D ;D ;D

Great. Just what everyone needed. Let's complicate matters further by creating another unneeded "fix" for WeiDU itself.

Offline Echon

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@me

We appreciate it when people are not dicks. For instance, dickery includes obvious trolling or being overly condencending. Try not to be a dick.

me

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Appreciate the suggestion, darling. Be sure to direct that to the Doc as well.

Offline subtledoctor

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a regexp that concerns 60 000 files in the overwrite folder doesn't work in the v185 even if it was originally programmed for that weidu.exe, while it does in the v24200 todays, no matter were it to ran in with only one renamed weidu.exe in the folder.

And if it's so easy to fix the weidu -programming with a fixpack, then why the hell is there even more than 1 weidu.exe ever released ? (a .exe or whatever OS you use it with)

I don't know whether AL|EN's specific example was a good one... I just opined as to the overall point that making changes without testing the effects is never a good idea if there is an alternative that can make more directed, limited, and tested changes.

For instance, if Old_Mod ship with a version of Weidu that has a buggy regexp implemenation, the FixPack could simply overwrite setup-Old_Mod.exe with a newer version. If Other_Mod performs perfectly well with its old version of Weidu, it need not be overwritten.

Again, all very hypothetically.

In fact, this is so hypothetical that I'm not even sure why it's being discussed. Is it really worth the effort of arguing? (Setting aside trolling by anonymous cowards, which will happen no matter what.  :-Zzz )
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 12:40:51 PM by subtledoctor »

Offline AL|EN

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In fact, this is so hypothetical that I'm not even sure why it's being discussed. Is it really worth the effort of arguing? (Setting aside trolling by anonymous cowards, which will happen no matter what.  :-Zzz )
Not really: wiedu is a framework which is bound to the IE/game version. When modding framework version will be bound bound to mod, and a mod is bound to game version, that's rock-solid consistency.

wisp already agree, but I personally needs some decisions/timelines in order to start working for BWS replacement.
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me

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I don't know whether AL|EN's specific example was a good one...
Then maybe you shouldn't have jumped into his argument if you're not familiar with it? :)

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I just opined as to the overall point that making changes without testing the effects is never a good idea if there is an alternative that can make more directed, limited, and tested changes.
Again, I have to hand it to you for this mind-blowing statement.  I'm sure it never crossed the minds of the developers in the past 15 years of Weidu's progress.  ::)

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For instance, if Old_Mod ship with a version of Weidu that has a buggy regexp implemenation, the FixPack could simply overwrite setup-Old_Mod.exe with a newer version.
Yes, let's have the BWP fixpack take over for Weidu while it's being actively maintained and have the fixpack carry outdated, unsupported versions in its stead. You are digging yourself into a hole you can't crawl out of, Doctor.

Get some rest, Doc. Perhaps you're overdosed on a few too many Dayquils. ;D  ;D

Offline Echon

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Keep the quips and personal attacks out of this forum, both of you. And don't make me have to repeat this.

Offline subtledoctor

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Oh fucking spare me dude. Deal with bad actors, or don't. And if you don't, don't be surprised when other people do and discussion turns to shit.

I don't give a shit, I already blocked that fool.

me

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Oh fucking spare me dude.
He is telling you to stop acting like a whiny little drama queen, just like I told you in the other forum. No need to throw a tantrum, Doc.

Too bad you haven't got your meds yet.  ::)

Offline Echon

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Oh fucking spare me dude. Deal with bad actors, or don't. And if you don't, don't be surprised when other people do and discussion turns to shit.

I don't give a shit, I already blocked that fool.

He is telling you to stop acting like a whiny little drama queen, just like I told you in the other forum. No need to throw a tantrum, Doc.

Too bad you haven't got your meds yet.  ::)

I am telling you to stop posting shit like this.


1. Take your personal wars elsewhere.
2. Stick to the topic at hand. If in doubt, see #1.

I would prefer not to delete posts, ban users, or something similar but that is up to you.

 

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