Author Topic: Technical questions about weapon speed factor, different damage types and other  (Read 12551 times)

Offline cremo

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Hello everyone

I am about to release the description of a project to alter the whole bg2/bgtutu weapon proficiency system on which i spent quite some time and I am very happy with.. yet i need some information in order to complete my work.
Sorry in advance for my english (I'm from Italy).

1) what happens if the speed factor of a weapon reaches, due to proficiencies, magic items, and such, 0 or negative numbers? Will the engine just understand that a speed factor of -1 will be faster than 0? Or it can't tollerate that (maybe forcing it to be at 0 or crashing the game?).

2) I've always been a bit confused about damage types, which is mainly interesting to me due to the fact that the bg2 engine ca set different AC for different attack types, like, for example, small shields and bucklers don't giving any bonus to missile weapons (and piercing for buckler also).

2a)First off, I would like to know if there's maybe a problem of similar terms for different mechanincs: for example, I think that maybe - but i am not scure - one thing is dmgtype wich is used to calculate if a waepon hits, and another is the dmgtype used to calculate the effective damage against resistances (so same terms but, actually, the two could be different for the same weapon).
I am persuaded to that since, for istance, bows and crossbows projectiles do "piercing damage" on description, yet you can read that there are many ways to get Bonus-Malus AC against "Missile Weapons".
So, i can't understand if, maybe, in damage type vs AC there's a missile weapon component while not in damage type vs damage resistance (Yet, in shadowgate i can set missile and piercing damage separately.. so i am totally confused!).
In conclusion.. what is the damage type vs AC of differend ranged weapons (throwing, bows, slings, xbows)? and is that the same dmgtype used to calculate ranged weapon dmg vs the resistances of the hitten creature?

(continues in following reply since i 'm having scroll problems with browser)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 04:44:06 AM by cremo »

Offline cremo

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2b) another thing i would like to know is how small shield and buckler exactly work out. Their description, like it's known, say they don't protect against missile weapons.. that's quite easy to understand... yet what happens if you get a magical shield? does the magical bonus to AC don't extend to the damage type not covered by the basic shield protection or does it? what about the sword and shield weapon style.. does the char get AC bonus against missile when weaing those type of shields?

2c) is it possible to make weapons that deal different damage types with 1 hit? for example making it that a 2 handed swords deals 1d6 blunt (crushing?) + 1d6 slashing dmg? what happens if the creature attacked has different AC against the different damage types? is it possible that the blunt component hits while the slashing components miss? or maybe the first (or maybe the second) component determine if it's an hit, and only than the different damage types are applyed? Does it change something if the weapon deals, for example, 1d6 slashing +3 piercing?

3) would it be possible to make that different attack animations of a weapon give different damage types? like making it that a thrust from a spear deals piercing damage, while a swing crush damage?

Thanks for the attention! hope you can help me, since I'm eager to release my work in the hope to get some feedback!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 04:45:37 AM by cremo »

Offline Echon

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1: I am convinced 0 is the fastest possible speed factor. It will result in an instantaneous attack.

2: Armour class bonuses vs. piercing, and piercing resistance, will both apply to all piercing attacks. The armour class bonuses make certain weapons more effective vs. certain damage types. Chainmail has a base AC of 5, an AC of 3 vs. slashing and an AC of 7 vs. bludgeoning. Using a warhammer against someone in chainmail gives you a +4/20% bonus to hit compared to a sword. A slashing resistance of, say, 50 halves all such damage.

In spite of what the descriptions may claim, missile weapons do missile damage which is something BioWare invented. It should have been piercing, bludegeoning and slashing for arrows/bolts, bullets and throwing axes, respectively.

Shields provide an AC bonus against any attacks. Tower shields provide an additional bonus vs. missiles.

Yes, weapons can do two types of damage and the one most likely to hit will be used. Scroll down to 0x001c at http://iesdp.gibberlings3.net/file_formats/ie_formats/itm_v1.htm.

3: No.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 05:06:57 AM by Echon »

Offline cremo

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1: I am convinced 0 is the fastest possible speed factor. It will result in an instantaneous attack.

Interrupting any spellcasting, even if casting time 0 i guess, right?

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In spite of what the descriptions may claim, missile weapons do missile damage which is something BioWare invented. It should have been piercing, bludegeoning and slashing for arrows/bolts, bullets and throwing axes, respectively.

Meaning that, modding, certain items could give you specific missile damage AC an resistance, unaffecting piercing weapons i guess. Good to know.
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Shields provide an AC bonus against any attacks. Tower shields provide an additional bonus vs. missiles.

Ok, but what about bucklers and small shields?
In the description it says:
Buckler:  Armor Class Bonus:  1 - Special:  No Missile/Piercing Attack Protection
Small shield: Armor Class Bonus:  1 - Special:  No Missile Attack Protection
Medium shield: Armor Class Bonus:  1
Large shield: Armor Class Bonus:  1 - Special:  +1 Missile Attack Protection

So I don’t think it’s just a matter of large shields having a +1 missile protection… but, if I translate right:
Buckler:  +1 AC slashing and bludgeoning only
Small shield: Armor Class Bonus:  +1 AC slashing, bludgeoning and piercing only
Medium shield: + 1 AC slashing, bludgeoning, piercing and missile
Large shield: +1 AC slashing, bludgeoning, piercing +2 AC Missile

My question was the following: if you use a magic +2 buckler, would you get +3 slashing/bludgeoning only, or would you also get +2 against piercing-missile ? and if you have weapon and shield style, would you get the +AC bonus against missile weapons when carrying bucklers and small shields?

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Yes, weapons can do two types of damage and the one most likely to hit will be used.

Meaning that the difference between the 2 damage types of the weapon would matter just to check against damage resistances but not in order to hit the opponent (since the AC would be the same for both types of damage), right?


BTW thanks a lot for your help :)

« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 09:42:26 AM by cremo »

Offline Echon

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Interrupting any spellcasting, even if casting time 0 i guess, right?

Not necessarily. The attack is still tied to the attack animation, unless the # attacks/round exceeds the number of animations.

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Meaning that, modding, certain items could give you specific missile damage AC an resistance, unaffecting piercing weapons i guess. Good to know.

Personally, I would prefer to have the different ranged weapons do piercing, slashing and bludgeoning damage while still having the option of modifying their chance to hit.

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Ok, but what about bucklers and small shields?
In the description it says:
Buckler:  Armor Class Bonus:  1 - Special:  No Missile/Piercing Attack Protection
Small shield: Armor Class Bonus:  1 - Special:  No Missile Attack Protection
Medium shield: Armor Class Bonus:  1
Large shield: Armor Class Bonus:  1 - Special:  +1 Missile Attack Protection

So I don’t think it’s just a matter of large shields having a +1 missile protection… but, if I translate right:
Buckler:  +1 AC slashing and bludgeoning only
Small shield: Armor Class Bonus:  +1 AC slashing, bludgeoning and piercing only
Medium shield: + 1 AC slashing, bludgeoning, piercing and missile
Large shield: +1 AC slashing, bludgeoning, piercing +2 AC Missile

This is correct.

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My question was the following: if you use a magic +2 buckler, would you get +3 slashing/bludgeoning only, or would you also get +2 against piercing-missile ? and if you have weapon and shield style, would you get the +AC bonus against missile weapons when carrying bucklers and small shields?

Good question. I would assume that bucklers and small shields still provide no protection at all vs those damage types while the tower shield remains capped at +1 vs. missiles. That is also how the game works.

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Meaning that the difference between the 2 damage types of the weapon would matter just to check against damage resistances but not in order to hit the opponent (since the AC would be the same for both types of damage), right?

I am fairly this check depends on AC and not resistances. If you have a weapon doing piercing/bludgeoning vs. chainmail, bludgeoning would be chosen.

Quote
BTW thanks a lot for your help :)

No problem.

Offline cremo

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Quote
Personally, I would prefer to have the different ranged weapons do piercing, slashing and bludgeoning damage while still having the option of modifying their chance to hit.

Meaning that you would like to set THACO bonus-malus to specific weapons against particular armors.. this would be cool.. yet I don’t know if it can be done in the bg2 engine, and I think it would be totally harder to do than simply using the current system of giving bonus/malus to certain dmg types vs certain armor types.

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I would assume that bucklers and small shields still provide no protection at all vs those damage types while the tower shield remains capped at +1 vs. missiles. That is also how the game works.

So –sorryn if I repeat myself but I want to be scure – basically using bucklers and small shields you won’t get  +AC against missiles no matter what (no weapons and shield style bonus, nor magic shield ac bonuses that would only stack to the other type of damage).


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I am fairly scure this check depends on AC and not resistances. If you have a weapon doing piercing/bludgeoning vs. chainmail, bludgeoning would be chosen.

Mmm… I didn’t explain myself clearly.
As far as I know, resistances only apply AFTER a character is hit, mitigating the damage. What I was asking was how the THAC0 of multiple dmg type weapons worked. Since you told me that those weapons use the best dmg type against the attacked creature’s armor, I inducted that, THAC0 wise, a weapon doing 1d6s+1d6p dmg and a weapon doing 2d6p dmg, would have the same chance to hit an armor that has -2 AC against slashing but +2 against piercing.. meaning that, in this case, the difference in dmg type would only matter to calculate the damage done (in hypothesis, if the attacked creature has resistances to piercing damage, the second one would deal less dmg for the same dmg roll).

Yet I think you are now imnplying that a weapon can do piercing/bludgeoning TOGETHER.. meaning the weapon deals a damage wich is of a double nature?
I didn’t know of this option.. if it exists, I think you are saying than a weapon doing 1d8 slashig/piercing would have the bonus of being able to use the best dmg type in order to hit.. right?
Yet I was talking about a different type of weapon.. not one that does like 2d6 slashing/piercing, but 1d6 slashing and 1d6 piercing..

do both option exists? I mean, is it possible to make both weapons dealing multiple type of different damages (like 1d6s+1d6p) and weapon doing one single damage of multiple nature (2d6 s/p)?

I am quite confused :P
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 12:36:22 PM by cremo »

Offline Echon

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So –sorryn if I repeat myself but I want to be scure – basically using bucklers and small shields you won’t get  +AC against missiles no matter what (no weapons and shield style bonus, nor magic shield ac bonuses that would only stack to the other type of damage).

Yes, that is what I meant.

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Yet I think you are now imnplying that a weapon can do piercing/bludgeoning TOGETHER.. meaning the weapon deals a damage wich is of a double nature?
I didn’t know of this option.. if it exists, I think you are saying than a weapon doing 1d8 slashig/piercing would have the bonus of being able to use the best dmg type in order to hit.. right?
Yet I was talking about a different type of weapon.. not one that does like 2d6 slashing/piercing, but 1d6 slashing and 1d6 piercing..

do both option exists? I mean, is it possible to make both weapons dealing multiple type of different damages (like 1d6s+1d6p) and weapon doing one single damage of multiple nature (2d6 s/p)?

Yes, these double damage types mean that the weapon either does 1D8 piercing or 1D8 bludgeoning, for instance. You can have both, or more actually, but anything beyond the first type of damage will have to be added as an effect which does not affect the attack roll. Only the damage type chosen in the intension header will determine which AC to roll against.

Offline devSin

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So –sorryn if I repeat myself but I want to be scure – basically using bucklers and small shields you won’t get  +AC against missiles no matter what (no weapons and shield style bonus, nor magic shield ac bonuses that would only stack to the other type of damage).
All shields provide a bonus to AC. Bucklers and other shields then provide a separate penalty or bonus to AC for specific damage types to bring them into compliance (a buckler with +1 AC simply gives you an additional -1 missile AC). You will never have an AC vs. missile bonus with a buckler (no matter how strongly enchanted, a buckler simply doesn't provide protection against missile weapons).

This is all done with generic effects, so you can check out all the shields in Near Infinity or your editor of choice.

In some of the engines, there are additional damage types that ideally provide a choice of two different types of damage depending on which has the highest chance to do damage. However, one of the damage types will actually return the type that is most likely to be resisted (in BG2 at least), and they're not guaranteed to work for all of the engines. Icewind Dale II also added a missile (bludgeoning) damage type for blunt missiles.

If you want multiple damage types, you would have to use effects. As Echon notes, damage from effects won't factor into the hit roll (only the main ability values will influence the hit chance), but the target's resistances will successfully apply to each of the individual damage types (where applicable).

cremo-at-work

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So let's say, for example, that weapon A deals 1d6s+1d6b DMG while weapon B deals 1d12 s/b  

against a plate armor (that gives increased protection against slashing but not against bludgeoning) weapon A would be treated like a slashing weapon in relation to its chance to hit (only dealing blunt DMG if the sweapon hits as a slashing weapon with malus) while the game engine would consider weaponB as a bludgeoning weapon (due to that type of damage being the most favorable against plate armor) meaning that weapon B would have more chances to hit than weapon A.


Offline Echon

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So let's say, for example, that weapon A deals 1d6s+1d6b DMG while weapon B deals 1d12 s/b  

against a plate armor (that gives increased protection against slashing but not against bludgeoning) weapon A would be treated like a slashing weapon in relation to its chance to hit (only dealing blunt DMG if the sweapon hits as a slashing weapon with malus) while the game engine would consider weaponB as a bludgeoning weapon (due to that type of damage being the most favorable against plate armor) meaning that weapon B would have more chances to hit than weapon A.

Yes.

Offline devSin

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against a plate armor (that gives increased protection against slashing but not against bludgeoning) weapon A would be treated like a slashing weapon in relation to its chance to hit (only dealing blunt DMG if the sweapon hits as a slashing weapon with malus) while the game engine would consider weaponB as a bludgeoning weapon (due to that type of damage being the most favorable against plate armor) meaning that weapon B would have more chances to hit than weapon A.
Correct, although I believe the double damage types look only at resistance and not AC (they just pick the one least likely to be resisted, except the bugged one that chooses the type most likely to be resisted, and then proceed to the normal attack roll).

In vanilla items, the higher damage types were never used for player items (only certain creature weapons in ToB). Honestly, you're probably better off just disregarding those damage types.

cremoatwork

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fact is i would like to make use of them in order to make some weapons strategically interesting being them more versatile.

I would like to make a 2h sword that deals 2d6 slashing/piercing and a great axe that does 2d6 blunt/piercing in an armor system where piercing has malus against light armor, this way making great swords better to deal against them, while great axes better against heavy armor.

You are saying it's bugged tough?


cremoatwork

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Quote
Damage type
0 = None
1 = Piercing/Magic
2 = Blunt
3 = Slashing
4 = Ranged
5 = Fists
6 = Piercing/Blunt (more) (BG2)
7 = Piercing/Slashing (more) (BG2)
8 = Blunt/Slashing (less) (BG2)

According to the iespd my project would work since I don't plan to use blunt/slashing (which uses the worst damage instead of the best if i understand right the above chart)... yet i would like to know if it's based on resistance or AC the damagetyope chosen.. anyone can confirm?

Offline Taimon

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Both, actually.
8 is only bugged for the resistance check.

Offline cremo

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Both?  meaning that a double damage weapon would use the THAC0 of the better type of damage against AC (like, for example, blunt if against someone with plate armor) and AFTER that, it could deal a different damage type if it would be better to overcome damage resystance (like, for example, dealing slashing damage to the above enemy if it had damage resistance against blunt?).


Offline Taimon

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Exactly, but the blunt/slash damage type is buggy for the resistance check.

Offline cremo

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ok! thanks much!

Offline cremo

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I have been restarting to work on my project.. i would like to know if the bugginess of slashing/bunt damage   type (with the WORST one being used for different weapon resistances)can be corrected or it's hardcoded.

I also would like to know if the dual wielding weapon style thaco bonus could be messed with, even if, like I've heard, weapon styles are hardcoded (i would just like to give some damage bonus to two weapon styles and always leave a -2 malus on the main hand while dual wielding). same for weapon proficiency.. possible, for example, to make it so that *** gives you -1 spd with weapon and +2 damage (istead of the thac0 bonus)?

And one last thing: 0 is the lowest weapon speed.. yet what about the highest.. ten? or can be more?

Thanks in advance for your help ;)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 07:37:51 PM by cremo »

Offline cremo

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No one knows?

Offline Kulyok

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There's a TobEX program which allows to mess with the .exe... somewhat. Try http://www.shsforums.net/forum/606-tobex/ , but read the old posts beforehand.

Offline cremo

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Thanks for the reply. Yet, basically, you are telling me that there's no way to edit weapon styles, proficencies and correcting the problems with slashing/blunt damage than editing the exe of the game (it seems a bit drasticall since what I would like to do is just tweaking bonusses of weapon styles and proficiencies)? Can this be compatible with bgtutu?

Offline devSin

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Weapon styles and damage types are hardcoded. You won't be changing them after the fact.

For the proficiency, you might want to look at the WP* 2DAs (controls the "stars" bonuses). I believe you can set the damage, THAC0, and speed factor modifiers there (but speed factor is, for all intents and purposes, useless).

You'd normally want to stick to a number from 0 to 10 for speed factor. It can probably go higher (just like casting speed), and you can experiment with it if you wish, but I'm not sure how high or why you'd do so.

Cremo from work

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Thanks DevSin! I've actually found a way to solve my issue! :)

 

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