Author Topic: Comments on Riskdancer  (Read 4337 times)

Offline the bigg

  • The Avatar of Fighter / Thieves
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3804
  • Gender: Male
Comments on Riskdancer
« on: May 19, 2010, 11:26:55 AM »
(Continued from here)

Limiting to ** isn't a disadvantage compared to a plain fighter: the only big advantage of ***** versus ** is +1 attacks per round, which the RD gets innately with *all* weapons (***** also gives bonuses to speed factor, damage and thac0, but they aren't really noticeable with all the +Strength items you get). Additionally, getting the full ApR at ** versus ***** means you'll be able to get to maximum efficiency with more than 1 or 2 weapons.

Giving bonuses to AC and limiting armor is counter productive - the best leather armor in SoA gives 3 AC (and is easily obtainable from Ribald). By 14th level, that's equivalent to 0 AC, 2 points worse than the best available armors (which are only available in the Underdark and carry some penalties). Losing 2 points of AC is a disadvantage, but hardly a noticeable one (there are many ways to manage aggro or improve AC/damage resistance).

Improved Alacrity doesn't speed up item usage. It's also pretty lame for this character - you can only combine Greater Whirlwind, Power Attack and Deathblow. The latter two abilities just plain suck, and GWW is pretty much obsoleted by Improved Haste (GWW gives you 10 attacks in one round, IH gives 8 attacks per round per twenty rounds if he dualwields).

A cool disadvantage would be to limit the character's strength to 15 and prevent him from wearing +Strength items (more than that and your muscles will be bulky enough to slow you down). This way, you have a character that is good at bringing down casters (many attacks = interrupt spells, remove Illusory Image/Stoneskin faster) but be weaker versus other warriors.
Author or Co-Author: WeiDU (http://j.mp/bLtjOn) - Widescreen (http://j.mp/aKAiqG) - Generalized Biffing (http://j.mp/aVgw3U) - Refinements (http://j.mp/bLHoCc) - TB#Tweaks (http://j.mp/ba02Eg) - IWD2Tweaks (http://j.mp/98OFYY) - TB#Characters (http://j.mp/ak8J55) - Traify Tool (http://j.mp/g1Ry9A) - Some mods that I won't mention in public
Maintainer: Semi-Multi Clerics (http://j.mp/9UeIwB) - Nalia Mod (http://j.mp/dng9l0) - Nvidia Fix (http://j.mp/aRWjjg)
Code dumps: Detect custom secondary types (http://j.mp/hVzzXG) - Stutter Investigator (http://j.mp/gdtBn8)

If possible, send diffs, translations and other contributions using Git (http://j.mp/aBZFrq).

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Comments on Riskdancer
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2010, 12:50:43 AM »
Transferred for ease of reading.

Kit: RISKDANCER
Class: Fighter
Race: Any
Alignment: Any
Description: Those who observe and study the arts of combat know that one factor, more than any other, determines the outcome of any engagement: Speed. From being quick enough to slip an attack past an opponent's block, to arranging troop movements so that they can fortify a position before the enemy arrives, the essence of battle is time. To this end, Riskdancers cast off anything they see as nonessential, and spend more time practicing sprinting and acrobatics than more traditional weaponmastery. In battle, they will occasionally touch on unexpected reserves of energy, and burst forth into a frightening dervish of attacks.

Advantages:
* Base +1 Attack per Round
* +1 to Movement Rate at Levels 2, 8, and 16 (not always seen as an advantage)
* After Level 4, each melee hit has a 5% chance to Haste the Riskdancer for 3 rounds
* After Level 15, each melee hit has a 1% chance to Improved Haste the Riskdancer for 1 round
* Gains access to the ToB HLA of Improved Alacrity (up to 3x/day)

Disadvantages
* Can wear no heavier than Hide
* Limited to Specialization (++) in any Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Style
* Cannot choose the ToB HLAs of Hardiness, Magic Resistance, Critical Strike, or Greater Deathblow

Notes: Riskdancers who Dual-Class to Thief will not be able to choose the ToB HLA of Use Any Item. The Riskdancer's Improved Alacrity ability has the side effect of blocking all spellcasting during its duration.

What do y'all think? I'm not crazy about the way Improved Alacrity can essentially give the Riskdancer a brief period of invincibility (as they can drink Healing Potions as rapidly as they want), but I think the idea of exploding all one's combat abilities at once is worth it for this kit idea. It also might be interesting to explore this as a Bard kit, rather than a Fighter.
[EDIT:] Removed the AC bonuses & changed Armor limitation from Leather to Hide. Even so, I'm thinking that the temptation of Dualing a low-level Riskdancer to Mage or Druid just for the ApR bonus might be too much. Generally, I'm not a fan of locking out Dual-classes, so making this a Bard is starting to look more appealing. If so, I would probably make their Imp. Alacrity allow spellcasting, but add a +4 modifier to Casting Time. Locked-out Bard HLAs would be Enhanced Bard Song, Magic Flute, and the Spike & Exploding Traps.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Limiting to ** isn't a disadvantage compared to a plain fighter: the only big advantage of ***** versus ** is +1 attacks per round, which the RD gets innately with *all* weapons
Oh, with the True (BG1) Grandmastery numbers, yes. I was actually thinking with the vanilla stats, where the only ApR boost comes at **: The RD studies a weapon just enough to get faster with it. But yes, that carries the side effect that he can max out in more weapons.

Giving bonuses to AC and limiting armor is counter productive - the best leather armor in SoA gives 3 AC (and is easily obtainable from Ribald). By 14th level, that's equivalent to 0 AC, 2 points worse than the best available armors (which are only available in the Underdark and carry some penalties). Losing 2 points of AC is a disadvantage, but hardly a noticeable one (there are many ways to manage aggro or improve AC/damage resistance).

Quote
Improved Alacrity doesn't speed up item usage.
Did not know that.
Quote
It's also pretty lame for this character - you can only combine Greater Whirlwind, Power Attack and Deathblow.
Don't forget War Cry! :P (Actually, Stunning nearby enemies for a short period of time could actually be quite useful if you have no THAC0 bonuses & are fast enough to run up to them.) It was my intention to hit the RD hard, as the kit needs some stiff disadvantage to balance out that base ApR boost. Of course, crippling the kit's HLAs only increases the incentive to Dual to something else before HLAs become a factor.

Quote
A cool disadvantage would be to limit the character's strength to 15 and prevent him from wearing +Strength items (more than that and your muscles will be bulky enough to slow you down).
I think natural muscle = bulk, while magically enhanced STR is "invisible," but that is a good point. I keep encountering reasons to make this a Bard kit (they don't even need an armor restriction because all Bard armors are flexible anyway, they could easily have Free Action added to their list of spells, etc.), but then again I don't want to stomp on the Blade: This kit is starting to look more & more like a Blade under permanent Offensive Spin. Granted, the Blade needs to be improved anyway, because Bards in general just plain suck, but I still don't like making existing kits obsolete.

Offline the bigg

  • The Avatar of Fighter / Thieves
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3804
  • Gender: Male
Re: Comments on Riskdancer
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2010, 06:51:19 AM »
Oh, with the True (BG1) Grandmastery numbers, yes. I was actually thinking with the vanilla stats, where the only ApR boost comes at **: The RD studies a weapon just enough to get faster with it. But yes, that carries the side effect that he can max out in more weapons.
With BG2 vanilla stats, being limited to ** isn't really a disadvantage, just like swashbucklers being allowed to get ** rather than * isn't an advantage (***** versus ** is +1 thac0/+2 damage/-3 speed factor).

Dropping the AC bonus is a good thing (best leather vs. best armor is a 5 points penalty... now it's something that the player will have to take into account).

Crippling HLAs is a stupid way of balancing a kit, because it removes the reward of leveling up (and playing a game where you don't get stronger over time becomes dull in the long run) - that goes both for Bard and Fighter kit (your current draft for a Bard kit will give it no disadvantage whatsoever until you get HLAs... very wrong IMHO, because it reverses the risk&reward mechanic).
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 06:53:10 AM by the bigg »
Author or Co-Author: WeiDU (http://j.mp/bLtjOn) - Widescreen (http://j.mp/aKAiqG) - Generalized Biffing (http://j.mp/aVgw3U) - Refinements (http://j.mp/bLHoCc) - TB#Tweaks (http://j.mp/ba02Eg) - IWD2Tweaks (http://j.mp/98OFYY) - TB#Characters (http://j.mp/ak8J55) - Traify Tool (http://j.mp/g1Ry9A) - Some mods that I won't mention in public
Maintainer: Semi-Multi Clerics (http://j.mp/9UeIwB) - Nalia Mod (http://j.mp/dng9l0) - Nvidia Fix (http://j.mp/aRWjjg)
Code dumps: Detect custom secondary types (http://j.mp/hVzzXG) - Stutter Investigator (http://j.mp/gdtBn8)

If possible, send diffs, translations and other contributions using Git (http://j.mp/aBZFrq).

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Comments on Riskdancer
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2010, 02:22:39 PM »
With BG2 vanilla stats, being limited to ** isn't really a disadvantage, just like swashbucklers being allowed to get ** rather than * isn't an advantage.
Yeah, I should have laid out a completely different set of Advantages/Disadvantages for porting the kit over to the Bard, because as it stands now the kit has no disadvantages for a Bard.

Quote
Crippling HLAs is a stupid way of balancing a kit
I disagree. The kit's significant Advantages (especially the base +1 to ApR) required equally significant Disadvantages. I try to make the timing of such checks & balances arrive roughly simultaneously in the character's EXP lifetime, but I just wasn't coming up with anything terribly meaningful that I could hit the character with during SoA levels--usually, THAC0 penalties are a good counter, but they clearly wouldn't make sense for this kit. So I "had" to take the penalties from the HLA side.

RISKDANCER (Bard)

Advantages:
* Base +1 Attack per Round
* +1 to Movement Rate and Speed Factor every 4 levels (stops after Level 20)
* After Level 6, each melee hit has a 5% chance to Haste the Riskdancer for 3 rounds
* After Level 14, each melee hit has a 1% chance to Improved Haste the Riskdancer for 1 round
* Gains access to the spell of Free Action, as a Level 4 Enchantment spell
* Gains access to the ToB HLA of Whirlwind Attack
* ToB HLA of Set Time Trap stops time for 18 seconds, instead of 10

Disadvantages:
* Can only learn Wizard spells from the Alteration, Divination, and Enchantment schools
* Only gets 5 Lore per level
* Does not gain access to the ToB HLAs of Use Any Item, Enhanced Bard Song, Magic Flute, Set Exploding Trap, or Set Spike Trap

Bard Song:
As the RD gains levels, allies within 30 feet gain immunities to Slow and Hold, and bonuses to their Speed Factor, and also have an increasing chance to become Hasted. Enemies in the area have an increasing chance to Save or become Slowed. I might figure out some specific numbers later.

Notes:
As it stands now, the RD avoids stepping on the Blade in that it can't gain the THAC0/Damage from specializing in a weapon, and being limited to a single proficiency point in weapon styles means the only effective style is to Single-Wield. (Plus there's all those spells he can't learn.) Not getting Improved Bard Song is not actually a disadvantage: All my Bards have their default Bard Song naturally increase 1 more step at Level 25, without having to use an HLA for it. I'm debating allowing access to more spell schools, and Greater Whirlwind.

Offline DeathKnight1728

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 43
Re: Comments on Riskdancer
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2010, 09:55:49 AM »
This is a pretty cool class. I think this should go with the thief class though. Fighter version is cool, bard is cool, just need thief since thieves would be most suited to this type of build.

 

With Quick-Reply you can write a post when viewing a topic without loading a new page. You can still use bulletin board code and smileys as you would in a normal post.

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What color is grass?:
What is the seventh word in this sentence?:
What is five minus two (use the full word)?: