Author Topic: Knights of the Order  (Read 24475 times)

Offline ddv

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Knights of the Order
« on: September 04, 2008, 01:10:44 AM »
Hi guys
the name's burz, and i've been thinking about making some BG2 mods for a while now.. even though i'm new and its so late in the game. I've got all these ideas, and for once some free time, but also I've got the commitment and will to finally make something. They only thing is, are these ideas worth making - would people want to play them? I figured the only way i'd find out is if i posted them here and saw what you guys thought. *runs for cover*

Basically my modding philosophy is that there are enough NPCs now, we need to add new, interesting quests and make the world richer. I have lots of ideas on how to do this, but outlined below is what I want to do first, if i even get that far. It's a mod that extends the Paladin stronghold quests, and spices it up a bit. As I said earlier i'd appreciate any input.

Knights of the Order:

 - Extends the Paladin main quest line by three smallish quests

 - Additionally, provides a unique quest each for the three paladin sub classes. These build on the orgional main quests and are planned to be quite big.

 - Finally, the real meat and potatoes of this mod, the option of taking a squire at the conclusion of paladin quest line. Either Melvin or Elotte (from the very first paladin mission). A bit like the mage apprentices, but it'll be a long-term commitment that'll last most of SoA. You'll shape their ideas aboud Paladinhood, train them towards strength or weakness, and generally mentor them. Kinda like a Padawan, but they won't be party members. Along the way they'll be tested in battles and quests of their own, so if you've done a bad job they could die or even fall from paladinhood. You'll see the fruits of your labor when they are judged by the Prelate, just like Anomen was. But be warned, there will be a random factor - they could succeed or screw up in spite of your efforts. If people like this maybe they can re-appear in ToB as party members/romantic interests/conflicts. =)

Also... a quest each for lawful good fighters and clerics of helm. These are biggish quests that are unlocked after the fighter and cleric quest lines conclude, and once the player has helped the Order with their problem of corrupt paladins. A messenger will appear to players of good reputation asking them to come before the Prelate. I'll elaborate on this later, if you like.

And then the sub-class specific quests in a nutshell:

Inquisitor Quest: Nuetralise the slave threat that killed the Morningale family.

Undead Hunter Quest: Finish off Firkraag, who has been ressurected.

Cavalier Quest: Repel the Sythillisian Empire at the northern border.

============================================
 Overview of the proposed paladin quest line
============================================
Reg. Event 1: Relieve Knights at the Umar Hills
 |
MOD 1: Optional, moral crisis of another Paladin
 |
Reg. Event 2: Settle land dispute
 |
MOD 2: Opt, Help a dead Paladin's family/daughter (hooker in docks)
 |
MOD 3: Opt, Defend priest of Illmater who's being harassed by thugs
 |
Reg. Event 3: Protecting the last Morningale
Reg. Event 4: Retrieving the Holy Avenger
 MOD 4: Inquistor, Undead Hunter, Cavalier quests
  |
 MOD 5: Asked to mentor a squire - Melvin or Elotte
*General paladins will go straight to getting a squire

============================================
Inquisitor Quest:
============================================
With the Lady Tyrianna taken to safety, Sir Hugris and the Order would see the Morningale family avenged and their murderers brought to justice. As a respected Paladin who has shown himself to be wise and pure of heart, even experienced in combat against these slavers, the Bhaalspawn is asked to lead a mission with the aim of exposing and vanquishing these evil men. If anyone can track them down and bring them to justice, surely it is he.

Details: Multiple options, the investigation leads back to the nobles who were trying to push those farmers off their land early on in the pala quest line, and it turns they were even in league with Firkraag. Obviously, you killed one of their ring leaders early on but their's another big player you never knew about. You'll have multiple ways to deal with him, killing him or bringing him in - but either will have its consequences (nothing as black and white as being kicked out or being a hero).

============================================
Undead Hunter Quest:
============================================
Knowledge has reached the Order of a beast terrozing the countryside, a Bone Dragon, destroying all in its path and claiming innocent lives by the hundred. The Bhaalspawn, famous for overcoming a Dragon and known for their strength against the undead, is asked by the Prelate to take the Holy Avenger and put an end to the slaughter.

Details: Very tough fight...  Firkraag's followers enlisted the aid of some necromancers and tried to ressurect him - but they screwed up! The result? A crazy undead dragon bent on destruction (a dragon zombie). They're dead now, but Firkraag's still going and needs to be stopped. This is all revealed through a very elaborate plot...

============================================
Cavalier Quest:
============================================
The Order has known for some time now that raiders from the Sythillisian empire have been ammassing and threatening Amnish lands on its northern border, near the Umar Hills. But after their recent clash with one of the Order's scouting parties, it is clear that their numbers are far greater than previously thought, and worse yet, they far more desperate than previously imagined. An all out assault is surely imminent. Dire news, for the Order simply lacks the forces to meet them head on. Your battle experience and possession of the legendry Holy Avenger put you in a position to lend assistance, and the PC is asked by the Prelate to travel to the Umar Hills and take charge of the situation there.  Your mission; to prepare and lead a premeptive strike that will cripple the invasion before it begins.

Details: I want to do some things like in the NWN2 battle at Crossroads Keep. For  example, entrusting a select few party members with special tasks - ie give Minsc your best troops to do a frontal assualt with while you hit the enemies flanks, get yoshimo to lay traps, etc. All handled through dialog. What you can do varies from party member to party member, and your standing with them. You'll only be able to utilise 2 party members in this way - you need the rest!  Also there will be different things you can do to improve your paladin forces. Final success will be determined by your casualties, but you can't really lose. Also a few diff. plot twists - ie important people dying or not. I want to do something like NWN2 did in this fight.

 - Thanks for your time, hope its been a fun (or at least funny) read =)
 - sorry if this is a mess, i just had to get it all out fast while inspired
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 08:57:26 AM by burz »

Offline Kulyok

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2008, 01:26:05 AM »
You're good.

I have small doubts about an undead dragon, though - there would have to be a pretty powerful mage or an evil priest to battle, _and_ a convincing story, as well. But I'm a "more story, less battle" girl - if there _is_ a story, battle will work, too.

Offline berelinde

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2008, 10:29:18 AM »
I cannot tell you enough how much I like your quest ideas. The paladin quests are without a doubt the lamest in the game, and these offer some interesting RP opportunities.

Offline the bigg

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2008, 10:40:31 AM »
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks
Class specific content sucks

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Offline Lorph Halys

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2008, 11:28:01 AM »
Class specific content sucks

Nevertheless, it's already in the game. One might as well make it suck less.

Offline the bigg

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2008, 12:33:19 PM »
Class specific content sucks

Nevertheless, it's already in the game. One might as well make it suck less.
We have Universal Strongholds to show how much class-specific content is appreciated. Plus, should I have to play the fifty hours game three times to see the three kit-specific half-an-hour quests? This is the stupid definition of replay value (and it isn't stupid because it's the definition of you-know-whom, it's stupid because it's stupid).
Multiple Romances don't make sense RP-wise, so they're acceptable. "Oh, a Cavalier doesn't hate Evil Dragons enough, try again when you're an Undead Hunter" is just a plain kick in the player's nuts (as it makes as much sense as the six NPC limit).
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Offline ddv

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2008, 12:57:07 PM »
Class specific content sucks

Nevertheless, it's already in the game. One might as well make it suck less.
We have Universal Strongholds to show how much class-specific content is appreciated. Plus, should I have to play the fifty hours game three times to see the three kit-specific half-an-hour quests? This is the stupid definition of replay value (and it isn't stupid because it's the definition of you-know-whom, it's stupid because it's stupid).
Multiple Romances don't make sense RP-wise, so they're acceptable. "Oh, a Cavalier doesn't hate Evil Dragons enough, try again when you're an Undead Hunter" is just a plain kick in the player's nuts (as it makes as much sense as the six NPC limit).

I believe there should be consequences to the choices a player makes in a game like BG2, and this will be a big element in any work I produce. This is not oblivion where one can be all things to all people, and you will have to live with whatever speciality you may or may not take. In the case of being an undead hunter, the Order would obviously have individuals better suited to uncovering a slaver ring or leading a military campaign. Bottom line, whatever you decide you will both gain and lose something - opening one door closes another. Thats just how I work, even within the non kit specific quests.

I am not excluding, say, non cavalier paladins as much as I am rewarding cavaliers for taking that kit. I want to create certain quests eminently suited to the qualities of each of the paladin kits, both RP and in battles, where that particular kit really has the chance to shine.

Besides which, kit specific quests form only part of the planned mod. Most content is accessable to any paladin, including the main part of the mod - your squire.

Offline the bigg

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2008, 01:06:14 PM »
Well, the other two expanded stronghold mods (Thief and Mage) allow you to experience the expanded content even if you're the wrong class (via Universal Stronghold). Congratulations for taking a double step in the wrong direction, I guess.
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Offline ddv

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 04:34:15 PM »
Well, the other two expanded stronghold mods (Thief and Mage) allow you to experience the expanded content even if you're the wrong class (via Universal Stronghold). Congratulations for taking a double step in the wrong direction, I guess.

Fair enough. What would your recommendations be? Is this a mod worth making, if so what changes to the initial idea should there be, etc like i said i welcome any opinions

Offline KIrving

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2008, 04:35:45 PM »
A resounding "Yes" from me!   :)  About 70% of the time that I play BG2, I play a paladin.  It was the RTW mod (always in production) that first lured me to the IE modding forums.  I've been hoping for some, substantial, paladin specific content for a long time.
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Offline the bigg

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 05:14:39 PM »
Fair enough. What would your recommendations be? Is this a mod worth making, if so what changes to the initial idea should there be, etc like i said i welcome any opinions
The mod *is* worth making, since the Paladin Stronghold and the Cleric one are in a tight duel for the most boring and less rewarding Strongholds. However, drop the idea of kit-related content (make all three quests open to all Paladins), and take 'reasonable steps' to ensure that a non-paladin who gets the SH via one of the Universal Stronghold mods will be able to play through your mod.

If you want to make kit-only quests, then make it possible (via an install-time choice, a variable to set, or whatever) for the other kits and/or classes to play through the kit-only quests.

(Incidentally, this is what Blucher did with the extended Thief stronghold: he made it Thief-only by default, then he also published a script to add for the SH to be universal).
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Offline ddv

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 05:23:58 PM »
i suppose thats reasonable, but in the mod's default state certain quests would be kit specific.

"the way its meant to be played" and all the rest  ;)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 05:26:29 PM by burz »

Offline KIrving

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 05:26:27 PM »
Fair enough. What would your recommendations be? Is this a mod worth making, if so what changes to the initial idea should there be, etc like i said i welcome any opinions
The mod *is* worth making, since the Paladin Stronghold and the Cleric one are in a tight duel for the most boring and less rewarding Strongholds. However, drop the idea of kit-related content (make all three quests open to all Paladins)
I agree with the bigg about removing the kit restrictions as I would definitely like to see all or at least most of the content in one play through.

Edit: to add quote and comment.
Quote
"the way its meant to be played" and all the rest  Wink
Personally I'd be careful about suggesting that a mod is to be played a certain way. 
I love Paladins but I won't play BG2 through three times with three different subclasses just to get a couple of different quests.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 05:32:35 PM by KIrving »
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Offline ddv

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 05:32:32 PM »
*sigh* kit specific quests seem like a lost cause. what would you guys think of kit specifc approaches and advantages in resolving said quests?

Offline the bigg

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 05:42:33 PM »
Sure, they are good. If a quest can be solved multiple ways, then you'll need multiple replays anyway to experience all of them, and you aren't artificially limiting the amount of content available in a single play through.
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Offline KIrving

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2008, 05:47:30 PM »
Sounds good to me. :)  Good luck!
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Offline ddv

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2008, 05:49:59 PM »
one more thing, i've started to produce some dialog for the early quests, so anyone interested in proof-reading / advising me on it please pm me

Offline Amgot

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2008, 05:57:49 PM »
Basically my modding philosophy is that there are enough NPCs now, we need to add new, interesting quests and make the world richer. I have lots of ideas on how to do this, but outlined below is what I want to do first, if i even get that far. It's a mod that extends the Paladin stronghold quests, and spices it up a bit. As I said earlier i'd appreciate any input.

You had me sold after the first sentence. Good luck with the mod and keep us informed!

Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2008, 09:09:41 PM »
New quests are always welcomed. Be in class specific, sex specific or for all involved.
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Offline ddv

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2008, 10:49:34 PM »
note that at this stage no mod project has been announced or undertaken, an idea has been proposed, with the dialog behind one or two early quests being worked on too. this way i can get an idea of how the mod would turn out and how long it might take. but for the time being this isn't yet a work in progess, just an idea.

whether or not this becomes a full project depends on three things, a) what experienced planewalkers think of the early quest dialog, b) hosting, and c) what people on the forums say about the general idea.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 10:58:18 PM by burz »

Offline Kulyok

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2008, 12:34:56 AM »
Feel free to post dialogue samples/preview here - or in a separate topic, if you prefer.

Offline the bigg

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2008, 08:19:37 AM »
b) hosting, and c) what people on the forums say about the general idea.
I'm sure that for b) you won't have any problems whatsoever. PPG is the community with the highest admission requirements (read: unless you make a mod where you kill Ao, your mod will be accepted). The other communities (SHS, G3, etc.) will gladly accept all mods under the sky, unless it's the Goatse Man Romance.
As for c), the current state is that there are so many players that, no matter how much your mod might suck, you'll always find fanbois. If you're looking for more sincere positive feedback, well-done quest mods are very well accepted in general (since there is fewer competition); even mediocre ones receive a decent amount of downloads and players (whereas mediocre NPC mods will be largely ignored).
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Offline ddv

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2008, 02:09:32 PM »
This a bit of dialog from the hypothetical "moral dilemma" quest, the first minor quest outlined earlier. It includes, taking a certain approach, the entire quest, but there are multiple paths and only one of them are written out here.

Part of my expanded paladin content is that i'm working the fallen paladins into numerous quests, and the actual fallen paladin that quest that appears in bg2 will only become available at the end of these.
...anyway here's how quest would play out. anyone feel free to leave whatever comments you may have.

The PC walks in on a conversation between two young knights as he enters the high hall of the order

Squire Jerrod: This isn't worth it anymore, Decius, we both know it. Can you really afford to pass up my offer?

Squire Decius:
You are speaking madness, Jerrod! Do you know what would happen to us if someone overheard you?
 
Squire Jerrod: Think of it Decius, five thousand gold pieces for five mintutes work. You could move your family out the of slums, maybe even buy some land up north, get yourself a farm.. settle down. We'll never see that kind of coin here, not as squires, not as knights. Opportunity like this only comes around once.
 
Squire Decius: Perhaps, but what of our vows, Jerrod? How is it that you are able to put them aside so easily, think of them as nothing.
 
Squire Jerrod: Bah! What of our vows? What good have they ever done us? They are holding us back, look at brother Anarg - one of the best among us, he saw this.
 
Squire Decius: Anarg? I.. I don't know Jerrod. This is a lot to think about. Could we really --
 
Squire Jerrod: Umberlee's teat! Someone's coming- meet me in the storage room tommorow, same time.
 
they scuttle off

a few party members will chime in about what they think should happen, you will hear one or two suggestions

Jaheira:     Listen In
There is more to this than what we have seen here. We would do well to hear what is said at their meeting before deciding our next course of action. Perhaps an invisibility potion or two is in order, no?

Yoshimo:     Listen In
Ah, my friends, an intersting opportunity presents itself here. Who knows what we could learn by attending this little gathering?

Anomen:     Tell prelate
By Helm, that such words should even be uttered within these halls! We ought to go the Prelate at once and hand these dogs over to whatever miserable fate their treachery has purchased them.

Edwin:      Doesn't care
Bah! Such as this comes as no surprise to me. (nor do the looks of shock on your niave monkey faces)

Nalia:      Confront Decius
That Decius fellow is having a hard time going along with this.. I don't think he's really a bad sort, if you pushed him on this he'd level with you. Wow, this is something I'd never expected to see.

Keldorn:    Confront Decius
Torm give me strength. The one called Jerrod, he is a corrupting influence we must root out. In the other I sense something different, something reedemable. We should confront him with what we have heard and see if he will cooperate with us. 

PC: 1. We should wait for this meeting and see what they have to say.
        Right now I have to decide exactly how we're going to do this. (approaches listed in Journal)
    2. The Prelate needs to know about this.
    3. I think Decius would work with us if we confronted him. Let's go find him.

Talking to the Prelate: 
Prelate Wessalen: I look forward to the reports of your achievements. I'm sure you will not betray our trust in your ability.
Prelate Wessalen: If there is nothing else, I bid you farewell.
 |
PC Responses: 1. Indeed, there is.
               |_2. There is nothing. Thank you for your time
               |
   Prelate Wessalen: What is it, Sir/Lady <charname>?
               |
    PC1. I have discovered corruption within the Order, sire.
               |_Prelate: What? What have you seen?
                |_1.: Two of the squires.. Decius and Jerrod I think their names were. The one called Jerrod was corrupting the other, I overheard him speak hatefully of their sacred vows, saying they were being held back. He said they should follow the example of a man called Anarg. He was trying to get Decius to join a plot of his, something that would earn them much gold very quickly, though he did not elaborate. They were planning to use this money to desert from the Order.
              |
              |_Prelate: This.. it is not entirely unexpected, I am ashamed to say. One of our senior officers, the man called Anarg, has been implicted in slavery and expelled from the Order. He was well loved among our younger members, however, and brought many of them over to his perverse cause when he left.
              |_Prelate: Men like these have been hard to dectect, but now that you have exposed them they must be punished and cast from the Order.
              |
It pains me to hear what has become of Decius, however. He was of humble origins, and I have always admired how he bettered himself through hard work and righteousness.
               |_1. You should know Prelate, that he never accepted Jerrod's offer, even if didn't he reject it.
                |Prelate: This matters not, for we have heard nothing from Decius. He can never be trusted again, and must share Jerrod's fate.
                |Prelate: You have done well in bringing this matter to my attention, but you must excuse me now, I have the arrests of two rogues to see to. Please, take this gold as a token of the Order's gradititude.
                |_1. Farewell
               |_2. Seeing a good man fall is never easy, but these two are set on their paths.
                 |Prelate: Indeed. You have done well in bringing this matter to my attention, but you must excuse me now, I have the arrests of two rogues to see to. Please, take this gold as a token of the Order's gradititude.
                 |_1. Farewell
    PC2. I overheard a disturbing conversation between two squires, though I am not sure what to make of it.

    PC3. When I accepted the as Order as my patron I thought I was joining a noble cause, but I am digusted at what I have seen during my time here.
Notes on all the ways in which the quest can be resolved:
         .

Confronting Decius:
If confronted Decius will confess what he knows and volunteer to turn himself in to the Prelate. He will explain himself as best he can and essentially you will be his judge. After this you will have to confront Jerrod. This will end violently and minimal information will be gained. After this it is up to you whether or not to put in a good word for

Decius with the Prelate, but you can save his career. You will hear about him again in the future, and there is a chance the impressionable young squire will repay your genorosity by getting mixed up in even worse crime.
 
Going to the Prelate: The prelate will have them both arrested immediatley and dealt with harshly. Your involvement will end with telling him, you will be given a reward.
 
Listening in: 50% Decius will refuse Jerrod, fight ensues, party reveals itself and fights on his side. Decius could die. 50% chance Decius will take Jerrod up on his offer, after which the party reveals itself and a fight against both ensues.
 
*you'll see decius has a poor family background, and would like to better the position of his mother and  siblings.
*Jerrod's angle was he needed more money to support a woman (rose bouqet in the bridge district), and didn't like the strict lifestyle.
*they were planning to steel anargs cup
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 02:12:01 PM by burz »

Offline Gold

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2008, 05:58:53 PM »
I like the whole idea of corruption in the most holiest of places. I mean, the Radiant Heart comes off as flawless in BG2 (despite Anarg and that whole deal which is SO under developed, and of course, accepting Anomen as a squire kekeke!) so I think a little bitching up would make it more human, and so much more realitstic and relatable. And it is is human for people to lose faith. I encourage this!
To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

William Blake - Auguries of Innocence

Offline the bigg

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Re: Knights of the Order
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2008, 07:38:14 PM »
Looks good. I didn't spot anything wrong in the dialogue, but it still sounds like it could use proofreading.

By the way, I don't think that the Prelate would arrest Decius on the spot: Decius might have tried to gather more information not to take part in Jerrod's illicit trade, but rather to have more proofs for later accusing Jerrod. (but then again, the Prelate will have some means of figuring out wether Decius's true motives).
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