Author Topic: hardocded theif/bard problem?  (Read 5836 times)

SweetMagooMagoodle

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hardocded theif/bard problem?
« on: April 06, 2008, 12:41:04 PM »
Hey.  Love the idea of these kits -- especially the ranged kids.  I have not used any of them yet, but what I have encountered with any mods that attempt to add weapon proficiencies to thieves or bards is that they run against what I think is a hardcoded restriction.  Namely that no matter how many points are given, thieves and bards still cannot benefit from any more than one actual point in a weapon. (Example:  i tried recently a sharpshooter thief kit -- didn't matter how many points in short bows -- no extra attacks, thaco, damage, whatver). If I am right, this would seriously gimp the idea of the sniper and your bard archer kits.  The only thing I could think of to get around that is slightly improved hit/damage bonuses built in early on (at around the same rate it would take to add prof points to one ranged weapon) and frequent use of haste ability??? I have no idea if this issue exists for non rogue classes.  For example, if a paladin actually can benefit from 5 points.  Obviously, the original archer works for the ranger kit, so maybe it only affects rogues??

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: hardocded theif/bard problem?
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2008, 02:41:48 PM »
It's been a long-lamented hardcoded issue that non-Warriors recieve only piddling benefits from increasing weapon proficiencies. When characters who are at least part Warrior (Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, and all their kits, including the Barbarian) add weapon proficiencies, they get improved THAC0, Damage, and Attacks per Round. But when characters who do not have any Warrior levels add proficiencies, all they get is improved THAC0 & Damage. The game engine simply does not grant increased ApR (based on weapon proficiency, at any rate) to non-Warriors.

As for this "gimping" my kits, I don't think that's the case. It certainly cripples the Sharpshooter (from Song & Silence) kit all to hell, though, because despite my repeated explanations to the contrary, Andyr tenaciously clings to the idea that being able to Grandmaster in Bow is enough to make the kit worth playing. But the most powerful feature of all my archer-type kits is not the number of stars they can put in ranged weapons, but rather the level-based THAC0 bonuses with ranged weapons. A Sniper's aim improves over the aim of a normal Thief at the same rate that an Archer's aim improves over that of a plain Ranger. True, the Sniper, Spellshafter, and Huntsman of Silvanus will never be as skilled at archery as the Bowman, Mystic Marksman, and Archer, but that's because they're not Warriors, and nor should they be.

I'm toying with the idea of giving the non-Warrior kits a slight edge to help even them out against the Warrior kits, though: While the non-Warrior archer kits recieve their level-based bonuses to ranged THAC0 and Damage, the Warrior archer kits recieve bonuses to ranged THAC0 only--not Damage. Anybody want to offer some feedback on this idea?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 02:29:46 PM by SixOfSpades »

Offline WizWom

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Re: hardocded theif/bard problem?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2008, 12:35:02 AM »
it's a shame you cannot add a half attack with a spell/effect.
But there is nothing stopping you from doing an "add 1 attack per round" permanent spell/ability at level 13, 20 or whatever.

I think, though, that bows in the BG2 engine set APR and that over-rides any skill level bonus.
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SweetMagooMagoodle

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Re: hardocded theif/bard problem?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2008, 10:37:37 AM »
Hey, SixofSpades.  Thanks for clarifying.  So there is thaco and damage but not ApR improvements. Thus the level bonuses you provide do indeed offer a significant improvment to Andyr's sharpshooter.  The sharpshooter was a blast in BG1tutu, but in BG2 it seemed pretty useless.  anyway, what about for your warrior archer kits you alternated thaco and damge imrpovements?  Or added damage but less often as the rogue versions?  I would hate to see the damage bonuses stripped completely.  

Anyway, i am more excited now to try out your sniper. Maybe the spellshafter, but I think I'll wait until you make the early going a bit more satisfatcory wiht that one.  good work.  looking forward to seeing what you have in store.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: hardocded theif/bard problem?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2008, 02:25:43 PM »
Yeah, I could give the non-Warriors improved ApR, but that would improve their ApR with melee weapons as well. Besides, I'm not really trying to make these guys into Archers--I'm trying to make them into the Thieves', Bards' and Druids' closest approximation to the Archer, while still remaining true to their core class. So yeah, I think I'll mitigate the Warrior archer kits to lower their damage (mostly to keep them from blowing the other Warriors out of the water), but allow the non-Warrior archer kits to retain the full damage bonus--ideally, this should make them potent enough to make players glad that they chose that kit, but not enough to make actual Warriors obsolete. The Sniper should not be able to completely eclipse the Fighter/Thief, etc,.

blcre

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Re: hardocded theif/bard problem?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2008, 12:25:26 AM »
Yeah, I could give the non-Warriors improved ApR, but that would improve their ApR with melee weapons as well....

Hi Six, i'm wondering, is it a hardcore as well?
I mean is it possible to give the non-warrior archer impoved ApR ONLY on ranged weapon? For example, by using "Set Ranged Effect"or script, etc.

btw, I really enjoy the idea of this mod. great work!  ;D

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: hardcoded thief/bard problem?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2008, 11:33:05 AM »
I mean is it possible to give the non-warrior archer impoved ApR ONLY on ranged weapon? For example, by using "Set Ranged Effect"or script, etc.

I strongly doubt it. Separate Ranged/Melee effects exist for THAC0 and Damage, but not ApR--so I find it very likely that this is simply one of the many things that the game engine simply cannot do. I currently do something like it, though, with the Huntsman of Silvanus's Called Shot: They get improved ApR and ranged THAC0, but at the same time a stiff penalty to their melee THAC0, to discourage cheesing the ability with melee weapons. That sort of thing is good only for short durations, though; it would be rather ridiculous if the kits had to suffer through that kind of melee curse for their entire lives.

Offline Bloodcore

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Re: hardocded theif/bard problem?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2008, 10:23:16 AM »
Then it's quite a pity not able to seperate ApR which should be able to make your druid kit more perfect....

But maybe scripting can do it? I remember i'd read a post in G3 before and the link is here: http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=11293&mode=linear

The author wants to achieve an effect that "gets an AC bonus when using longswords" via scripting, and i think it's somthing similar: using a script to give ApR when weapon type: bow/crossbow/sling is equiped and call shot is launched. And if people wants the non-warrior kit with 5 stars weapon prof to get the same ApR as warrior, they can also use this method. According to that post the author did make it...but it's a shame that i know nothing about scripting :-[ so i don't know how to test it on my own...

However it's my personal thought to get your good mod become more wonderful...  ;D

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: hardocded theif/bard problem?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2008, 02:11:50 PM »
Well, I suppose it could be possible, but it'd have to wait until I'm much more familiar with scripting than I currently am. Right now, I'm content with the non-Warrior kits getting level-based THAC0/Damage bonuses, and the Warriors just getting THAC0, as a way of helping to balance out the ApR inequity.

Of course, even if I were able to implement this perfectly (no erratic bugs as the author of the G3 thread describes) to give my non-Warrior kits the ApR that they would have if they were Warriors, that in itself would be a bug: Say I wrote code that gives the Sniper the increased ApR that comes from Grandmastery, every time he has a Crossbow in his hands. How do I know he's actually a Grandmaster in Crossbows? He might just have 1 proficiency point, or even none at all, and I would be forced to assume and grant him ApR bonuses that he hasn't earned yet. So while this is a nice idea, I'm afraid it's just going to have to remain an idea.

 

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