Author Topic: Your impressions on Assassinations  (Read 29885 times)

Offline Kulyok

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Your impressions on Assassinations
« on: March 16, 2008, 03:34:48 AM »
Post them here, please. :) I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

Offline Chronis

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2008, 12:55:11 AM »
Just started it,

So far I really like it, I am off on my first assignment at the moment.
The story really grabs you. Humm do I go help the
annoying noble asking me clear her home of invaders, respond to the other
nobles request to clear his land of monsters or...

do I go meet that mysterious and allegedly beautiful lady who
left the strange note? Not a hard decision.

 

 

Offline Kulyok

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2008, 02:19:10 AM »
Heheh. :)

Offline Lordrea

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2008, 03:58:57 AM »
Just did got past mission 9, and find myself checking in at the Copper every few days in hopes of hearing of an update. (trying to write without giving any spoilers...)

Have to say: the story, the interaction with Lynn, the depth of the encounters... it all grabs you, and is executed perfectly. I've played most of the mods out there, gone through all of the tales they tell - some good, some bad. But, I absolutely love this mod. The shortness of it almost seemed a problem, but with all the paths it was long enough. That, and if it were much longer, the effects of Lynn wouldn't have been such a grab.

Also, love how this is the first mod (well, the first mod that I noticed) that recognized that I solo the game for the most part. Glad to see that option there, rather then the consistent 'we'.

Anywho, I could go on for quite a long time about this mod (and still not get my full point across, 'cause I don't want to include any spoilers). But, I'll leave it with this: The Assassinations mod is a deep, strong mod that adds something special to the world of evil not-so-nice characters. It is perfectly written, and is sure to keep you wanting more. Baldur's Gate can use more mods like this (meaning in quality/length/mood/audience).

Offline Kulyok

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2008, 04:17:39 AM »
Glad you liked it. :)

It's a semi-spoiler, but anyway: Mission 10 will happen after you've defeated Bodhi in Chapter 6. I think you might enjoy it...

Offline Lordrea

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 05:17:45 AM »
Argh.

Argh Argh. Pftmerhg. Well, that last section of the mod was both extremely satisfying, and ridiculously ... well, arghish.

Again, well done, Kulyok. Truly an emotion-stirring mod. And you get to kill many people - what more can someone ask for?

However, one note:
You say, "... after you've defeated Bodhi in Chapter 6..."
However, I entered the Graveyard district before Bodhi was destroyed. Met with her at the entrance, then went up to do mission 10. There was also a bit of dialog that referenced my deeds in killing vampires. So, if the mission is supposed to trigger after you kill Bodhi... well, it triggers prematurely.

Offline Kulyok

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2008, 05:24:09 AM »
That's interesting. It's not an issue, but I wonder how did you get the last mission from Lynn? She is supposed to appear only after you got the second note from Bernard/a messenger boy in the graveyard, and they only give you the information if Bodhi is already dead in Chapter 6.

Offline the bigg

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2008, 05:32:07 AM »
Finished (on the beta you linked me, not V1).

One thing I noticed was that the 9th mission Journal entries were not removed after that assassination was over. Of course, I'm not sure if you fixed this since the beta you gave me.
Author or Co-Author: WeiDU (http://j.mp/bLtjOn) - Widescreen (http://j.mp/aKAiqG) - Generalized Biffing (http://j.mp/aVgw3U) - Refinements (http://j.mp/bLHoCc) - TB#Tweaks (http://j.mp/ba02Eg) - IWD2Tweaks (http://j.mp/98OFYY) - TB#Characters (http://j.mp/ak8J55) - Traify Tool (http://j.mp/g1Ry9A) - Some mods that I won't mention in public
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Offline Kulyok

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2008, 05:45:22 AM »
Quote
One thing I noticed was that the 9th mission Journal entries were not removed after that assassination was over. Of course, I'm not sure if you fixed this since the beta you gave me.

Yes, I noticed it and fixed it for v1.

(I had a nifty little adventure after traifying, after I noticed journal entries were in 1000-1065 range, and Assassinations.tra stretched into 1500s. I urgently had to replace all journal lines, adding one more zero to them. Fortunately, it worked in the end. :) )

Thank you for reporting!

Offline Lordrea

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2008, 09:39:28 AM »
That's interesting. It's not an issue, but I wonder how did you get the last mission from Lynn? She is supposed to appear only after you got the second note from Bernard/a messenger boy in the graveyard, and they only give you the information if Bodhi is already dead in Chapter 6.
Don't know what to say... just left the underdark, and went to Bernard. He said he had another note, and it went from there.

Hmm... though, I notice that the Teleport mod isn't letting me 'port after leaving the Underdark. Perhaps this is a bug caused by another mod that has some odd effect on Assassinations.

(Oh, and I fully blame you for keeping me up last night playing your mod. Three hours of sleep before school... *Zombie Ugh*)

Offline Kulyok

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2008, 09:48:14 AM »
Hmm. Then it seems your chapter count was boosted by another mod: it was supposed to happen in Chapter 7 or after Bodhi's death, not Chapter 6.

And "keeping me up last night" is the best compliment one can receive, in my opinion, so - thank you! :)

nks aka maidros

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2008, 09:27:33 PM »
Okay, I played through the mod last night, and there are good points and not so good points about the mod.

The good points - it seems fairly bug free (there are some minor problems - see below), the interactions are solid, and the individual missions themselves engrossing.

Not so good - It lacks continuity - each mission has nothing to do with the next, nor has the outcome of any mission (unless you botch up spectacularly) any reprecussions.  We never learn whether there was only one employer (was Rhin the only one?), nor why he wanted all those inoffensive people dead (the servant girl, sir Alexis, Kern) dead.  Finally, there is no rhyme or reason for them to free the PC in the end.  The best assassins to be employed are those who will be dead at the end of their missions.  An answer to these would be appreciated.

Serious problem - Really, it is supposed to cause emotional turmoil and tangles.  Most missions here are something that soldiers would have no trouble accepting.  With the exception of killing the inspector, and the servant girl, almost all other missions are actually doing the world a deal of good.  I did a little dance on the corpse of the Lathanderite priest, and killing the Harpers was actually fun.  Why does Jaheira not protest at all about killing two Harpers?

Minor bug - I got the message from Lynn inside Bodhi's lair (the boy turned up exactly the moment I killed Bodhi, and there were her one of her two mages still alive - I am playing with Tactics) , when I was actually fighting Bodhi.  Surely he can turn up outside?

Overall grade - B

Regards,
Maidros

Offline Kulyok

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 02:19:30 AM »
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Not so good - It lacks continuity - each mission has nothing to do with the next, nor has the outcome of any mission (unless you botch up spectacularly) any reprecussions.  We never learn whether there was only one employer (was Rhin the only one?), nor why he wanted all those inoffensive people dead (the servant girl, sir Alexis, Kern) dead.  Finally, there is no rhyme or reason for them to free the PC in the end.  The best assassins to be employed are those who will be dead at the end of their missions.  An answer to these would be appreciated.

Starting with the end: I'd mention Lynn's personal regard for the PC, but you won't buy it. :) So it's the simplest reason: they know PC is a powerful Bhaalspawn who _will_ exact revenge if wronged, so they decide to abide by the contract.

Missions are separate, yes, as they should be. Consider it a game(and a way to earn money, which matters) Lynn(and PC!) is playing: she's a judge, executioner, and sometimes she just can't see filth like that Lathanderite continuing with their dirty work.

Each mission opens a small story behind it, but they are not and were never intended to be interlinked. Missions 7,8 and 9 shed some light on what Lynn's up to behind the scenes, though: the link with the Shadow Thieves, Harper infiltration, and rogue assassins.

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Serious problem - Really, it is supposed to cause emotional turmoil and tangles.  Most missions here are something that soldiers would have no trouble accepting.  With the exception of killing the inspector, and the servant girl, almost all other missions are actually doing the world a deal of good.  I did a little dance on the corpse of the Lathanderite priest, and killing the Harpers was actually fun.  Why does Jaheira not protest at all about killing two Harpers?

Personally, I felt very strongly about killing lord Melyin and Kern - I really, really didn't want to. I was reluctant to kill the Harpers and the inspector, as well. The servant girl, on the other hand, was killed without remorse or regret. It's good that at least two missions worked for you emotionally, but my point is that neither of these people: nor the overly ambitious inspector, nor the lusty Lathanderite, nor the greedy merchant, nor the frightened civil servant, not the retired assassin, not even the drug dealer - deserved death. Imprisonment or fine, possibly, but PC kills them outright.

Jaheira reacts/interjects at least twice during the conversation with Harpers(twice, if Galvarey is dead), but she leaves the decision to the PC. I'm basing this on her reaction to the Harper assassin and Xzar(and as it's mission 8, it's very, very likely she's no longer a Harper) - she is resentful, and she doesn't seem to approve assassination in any form, but she maintains balance: PC decides. I'd include a banter with her afterwards, but it seems to me it's a painful topic for her she doesn't want to talk of it.

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Minor bug - I got the message from Lynn inside Bodhi's lair (the boy turned up exactly the moment I killed Bodhi, and there were her one of her two mages still alive - I am playing with Tactics) , when I was actually fighting Bodhi.  Surely he can turn up outside?

He should be, it's in AR0800. I'll look into it, thanks.

Thank you for taking time to post your impressions; I appreciate it. And good to see you around, of course.

nks aka maidros

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2008, 02:46:49 AM »
Jaheira reacts/interjects at least twice during the conversation with Harpers(twice, if Galvarey is dead), but she leaves the decision to the PC. I'm basing this on her reaction to the Harper assassin and Xzar(and as it's mission 8, it's very, very likely she's no longer a Harper) - she is resentful, and she doesn't seem to approve assassination in any form, but she maintains balance: PC decides. I'd include a banter with her afterwards, but it seems to me it's a painful topic for her she doesn't want to talk of it.

You can add this to the list of bugs then.  In my game, Jaheira did not react at all during the conversation with the Harpers (she was well within sight of the Harpers).  One thing though - Galvarey was still alive when I completed the mission, and I had not done the Xzar quest either.  Jaheira was on excellent terms with the Harpers, so her not reacting at all was extremely out of character for her. 

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Thank you for taking time to post your impressions; I appreciate it. And good to see you around, of course.

The mod is different and refreshing.  But some of the missions could be made outright evil - killing people who are palpably innocent, but are in the way of Lynn and/or her employer.  In your defence, you have pointed out that almost none of them deserved death.  That is true, but you are judging by today's jurisprudence.  FR has a much more medieval tinge to it - from the weapons, and its outlook, it seems to be something of the late medieval world.  In *that* age, many crimes were punished by death, mutilation, and branding.  Adultery was punishable by death (only for the female, of course, not for the male :P).  Perjurers had their tongues torn out with red hot pincers, and most died of the shock, pain and associated infections.  The assassin was just that before - a murderer for hire.  The Harpers, the drug dealer, and the wannabe ambusher were the ones who attacked first - so my PC had no qualms about slitting their throats.  The only ones whose murder is indefensible from the historical point of view are those of the inspector, and the nobleman.  You may want to include some mission/s which are really evil and morally indefensible.
Regards,
Maidros

Offline Kulyok

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2008, 02:52:24 AM »
I'll definitely look into Jaheira's interjections, then. And I'll think on your second point - it's very well made. Thank you!

Offline jastey

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2008, 02:00:38 PM »
He should be, it's in AR0800. I'll look into it, thanks.
In the Windspear Hills area, I made the experience that NPCs turn up in Garren's hut albeit spawned outside, if they are supposed to move / talk to Player1. Maybe this is the problem here, too.

And congratulations on the release! I won't play it, though, as the content is nothing for me.

Offline Kulyok

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2008, 02:09:21 PM »
It may be. Thank you for sharing, I must think of a way to counter it. AreaType(OUTDOOR), probably.

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2008, 03:05:35 PM »
Oooh nice material for my first evil runthrough :)  Thanks Kulyok

Offline theacefes

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2008, 01:49:14 AM »

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The mod is different and refreshing.  But some of the missions could be made outright evil - killing people who are palpably innocent, but are in the way of Lynn and/or her employer.  In your defence, you have pointed out that almost none of them deserved death.  That is true, but you are judging by today's jurisprudence.  FR has a much more medieval tinge to it - from the weapons, and its outlook, it seems to be something of the late medieval world.  In *that* age, many crimes were punished by death, mutilation, and branding.  Adultery was punishable by death (only for the female, of course, not for the male Tongue).

Sorry to be off topic, but I'd be interested in seeing a source in FR lore that says this (the whole adultery thing) is true in this setting as well. I understand that most DnD/ADnD settings *look* like they are perhaps set in a middle age style time, but it's still a made up world. In the late medieval world, you didn't see a crapload of 20 year old women running around in chainmail wielding broadswords either. (Unless they all have the brandings on their asses already.) At least, not a ton that were in recorded history.

So...I think that as long as we've got that going, it's safe to say (without a manual at hand) that Kulyok can easily get away with something like that.

Then again, if you've the source, please share it.

Ace

nks aka maidros

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2008, 10:19:36 PM »

Quote
The mod is different and refreshing.  But some of the missions could be made outright evil - killing people who are palpably innocent, but are in the way of Lynn and/or her employer.  In your defence, you have pointed out that almost none of them deserved death.  That is true, but you are judging by today's jurisprudence.  FR has a much more medieval tinge to it - from the weapons, and its outlook, it seems to be something of the late medieval world.  In *that* age, many crimes were punished by death, mutilation, and branding.  Adultery was punishable by death (only for the female, of course, not for the male Tongue).

Sorry to be off topic, but I'd be interested in seeing a source in FR lore that says this (the whole adultery thing) is true in this setting as well. I understand that most DnD/ADnD settings *look* like they are perhaps set in a middle age style time, but it's still a made up world. In the late medieval world, you didn't see a crapload of 20 year old women running around in chainmail wielding broadswords either. (Unless they all have the brandings on their asses already.) At least, not a ton that were in recorded history.

So...I think that as long as we've got that going, it's safe to say (without a manual at hand) that Kulyok can easily get away with something like that.

Then again, if you've the source, please share it.



See the Keldorn quest.  His wife was to be imprisoned for life.  Sir William of Thorpe would be hung, if Keldorn complained to the judges.
Regards,
Maidros

Offline theacefes

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2008, 12:57:01 AM »
So...the men *would* or would not be punished? Would there be mutilation and branding involved in Mrs. Firecam's jail visit? (This is the same game that let's you begin your adventure as a 20 year old elf.)

It's really not a huge deal, I was just wondering if the FR societies (humans only?) was actually a direct take from the medieval age societies and customs.

If you're correct then that's great; one more thing I didn't know that I can learn. :) You may also want to be more specific as to what "today's jurisprudence" applies to. It's 2008 but how many cultures today look at the sort of crimes you speak of with a "Oh, well...that's okay. Let them get away with it. It's the modern thing to do, anyway." attitude.

Hm, my entire point was to explain that the modder could get away with something like this but I fear this might end up being more useful in somewhere like the Gen. Discussion or something, should it go on.
Ace

nks aka maidros

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2008, 08:42:10 AM »
So...the men *would* or would not be punished? Would there be mutilation and branding involved in Mrs. Firecam's jail visit? (This is the same game that let's you begin your adventure as a 20 year old elf.)

Even in the olden times, men would be punished (just not with death).  In Babylonia and Assyria, if women were caught cheating on their husbands, the husband had the right to dump the woman in the river.  Her lover would be executed.  However, if the husband was caught in an act of adultery, he simply had to pay a certain sum in compensation.  No one dumped him in the river.

Coming to the medieval ages, the way the inquisitors punished adultery involving married women in ways that are too nauseating to describe (the woman, of course, was the only one punished cruelly).  The man would get a far lighter sentence, although if the husband of the married woman demanded, he might also  be put to death.  The point I am trying to make here is that a married woman cheating on her husband would be always punished more harshly than a married man cheating on his wife.

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It's really not a huge deal, I was just wondering if the FR societies (humans only?) was actually a direct take from the medieval age societies and customs.

As for FR, I don't think it is a direct cut-and-paste from medieval ages.  In fact, we have slavery abolished almost everywhere (except in areas whose inhabitants the authors want to demonise).  Personally, I think FR customs and jurisprudence are medieval customs that have been cleaned up for modern consumption (many people would have their sensibilities offended if they started a game with a slave and no way to emancipate that slave).  That is why you have guilds (an almost exclusively medieval institution), crusaders/inquisitors/knights, medieval forms of governance (monarchy, oligarchy, etc), walled cities, medieval weaponry, market districts in cities, etc.  I think jurisprudence would be an extension of their society and its evolution.  That is why I mentioned the medieval jurisprudence for FR.  I am not sure if any source book deals directly with FR jurisprudence as such (at least I am not aware of one).

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If you're correct then that's great; one more thing I didn't know that I can learn. :) You may also want to be more specific as to what "today's jurisprudence" applies to. It's 2008 but how many cultures today look at the sort of crimes you speak of with a "Oh, well...that's okay. Let them get away with it. It's the modern thing to do, anyway." attitude.

As you say, there is no one single jurisprudence pervasive all over the world.  The Taliban still stoned prostitutes in public.  What I was referring to as modern jurisprudence is roughly what is prevalent in the western world.  No judge in the western world executes/mutilates/imprisons people for adultery.

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Hm, my entire point was to explain that the modder could get away with something like this but I fear this might end up being more useful in somewhere like the Gen. Discussion or something, should it go on.

There is no question of `can'.  She already has.  My point is that when you are creating a mod, you also have to be sensitive to the surroundings of the world in question.  An anachronism would stand glaringly against the rest of the said world.  Also, Kulyok could have missions that are irrevocably evil and morally indefensible (like murdering a child who is in the way of Lynn's or her employer's chain of succession, or burning down a place that will involve dozens of innocent civilian deaths).  These were never accepted at any time - they would be considered barbaric crimes, no matter the time and place.

Regards,
Maidros

Offline theacefes

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2008, 11:35:13 AM »
Quote
Quote
So...the men *would* or would not be punished? Would there be mutilation and branding involved in Mrs. Firecam's jail visit? (This is the same game that let's you begin your adventure as a 20 year old elf.)

Even in the olden times, men would be punished (just not with death).  In Babylonia and Assyria, if women were caught cheating on their husbands, the husband had the right to dump the woman in the river.  Her lover would be executed.  However, if the husband was caught in an act of adultery, he simply had to pay a certain sum in compensation.  No one dumped him in the river.
 

Coming to the medieval ages, the way the inquisitors punished adultery involving married women in ways that are too nauseating to describe (the woman, of course, was the only one punished cruelly).  The man would get a far lighter sentence, although if the husband of the married woman demanded, he might also  be put to death.  The point I am trying to make here is that a married woman cheating on her husband would be always punished more harshly than a married man cheating on his wife.

Yes, I am familiar with history; I am not contradicting you on that. My question was whether or not the same customs applied to FR. Lady Firecam going to jail sounds like a nicer thing than being hung, as her lover would have been.

Quote
Quote
It's really not a huge deal, I was just wondering if the FR societies (humans only?) was actually a direct take from the medieval age societies and customs.

As for FR, I don't think it is a direct cut-and-paste from medieval ages.  In fact, we have slavery abolished almost everywhere (except in areas whose inhabitants the authors want to demonise).  Personally, I think FR customs and jurisprudence are medieval customs that have been cleaned up for modern consumption (many people would have their sensibilities offended if they started a game with a slave and no way to emancipate that slave).  That is why you have guilds (an almost exclusively medieval institution), crusaders/inquisitors/knights, medieval forms of governance (monarchy, oligarchy, etc), walled cities, medieval weaponry, market districts in cities, etc.  I think jurisprudence would be an extension of their society and its evolution.  That is why I mentioned the medieval jurisprudence for FR.  I am not sure if any source book deals directly with FR jurisprudence as such (at least I am not aware of one).

That was my question. :( I suppose I'll just ask around or see if I can get a hold of a friend's source books.

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Quote
If you're correct then that's great; one more thing I didn't know that I can learn. :) You may also want to be more specific as to what "today's jurisprudence" applies to. It's 2008 but how many cultures today look at the sort of crimes you speak of with a "Oh, well...that's okay. Let them get away with it. It's the modern thing to do, anyway." attitude.

As you say, there is no one single jurisprudence pervasive all over the world.  The Taliban still stoned prostitutes in public.  What I was referring to as modern jurisprudence is roughly what is prevalent in the western world.  No judge in the western world executes/mutilates/imprisons people for adultery.

Nope, typically we just stick it on TV and tabloids. :P

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Quote
Hm, my entire point was to explain that the modder could get away with something like this but I fear this might end up being more useful in somewhere like the Gen. Discussion or something, should it go on.

There is no question of `can'.  She already has.  My point is that when you are creating a mod, you also have to be sensitive to the surroundings of the world in question.  An anachronism would stand glaringly against the rest of the said world.  Also, Kulyok could have missions that are irrevocably evil and morally indefensible (like murdering a child who is in the way of Lynn's or her employer's chain of succession, or burning down a place that will involve dozens of innocent civilian deaths).  These were never accepted at any time - they would be considered barbaric crimes, no matter the time and place.

Well, obviously she has since she released the mod. It wasn't a physical "can or cannot". But as long as we don't have a source book anywhere, which was my original question in the first place, I don't see how one can tell a modder to be sensitive to the surroundings of the world in question when we're not even sure if we have a correct source by which to judge. (Although a mod where you throw stones at people *does* sound fun...;) )

Er...yeah, I'm dragging this. Good mod, Kulyok.  :pirate
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 11:38:30 AM by theacefes »
Ace

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2008, 06:19:59 PM »
Lady Firecam going to jail sounds like a nicer thing than being hung, as her lover would have been.
For what it's worth, I think this is probably more to assist in the construction of the quest than it is to establish FR lore. Keldorn lays out his dilemma by suggesting that "the love of [his] life is to be imprisoned". I suspect that when faced with the prospect that the love of his life is to be fucking mutilated, the characterization might be that bit less convincing.

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Re: Your impressions on Assassinations
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2008, 01:38:40 AM »
Agreed there. :) I've never been an expert (or really too interested) in the ins and outs of FR lore (or DnD knowledge other than what I've learned in the PC games). Guess the games are only so reliable.
Ace

 

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