Author Topic: General Questions / Comments about the Class/Kit Rebalancing component  (Read 11393 times)

Offline SixOfSpades

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You don't think Barbarians should be allowed to go as high as Mastery? You disagree with Paladins being able to choose other alignments? You think Druids using Bows is a lousy idea? You want the "No Use Any Item" rule applied to Wizard Slayers as well? You've got an idea for a good HLA that would be available only to trueclass Enchanters?

Let's hear it.

(Side note: I will at some future time be working on an Item-Balancing mod, to even things out some. When that happens, I'm thinking of lifting the majority of this component out of the Kitpack, and placing it in Item Balancing, to get more of a general Adapted-Ruleset kind of feel.)

Offline scott3614a

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I've been thinking about the Shieldbearer kit and had a suggestion to modify it somewhat, if you were so inclined...
I believe that a Shieldbearer would learn to use his shield not only as a defensive item, but an offensive one as well.  How about Shieldbearers getting an undroppable shield which would be coded as a club.  Hey, hear me out!  The club which looks like a shield can gain in enchantment level as the PC goes up in levels and do blunt damage.  2 proficiency points in 2 weapon style could be hard coded into the club/shield and placing any other proficiency points in 2 weapon style would be forbidden. 

Offline SixOfSpades

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How about Shieldbearers getting an undroppable shield which would be coded as a club.  Hey, hear me out!  The club which looks like a shield can gain in enchantment level as the PC goes up in levels . . .
It would take a lot of explaining to illustrate how the PC got through the day-to-day activities of all those years in Candlekeep with a big hunk of metal permanently welded onto his arm, and even more to break the news to the players that, even though the kit design is literally based on using a shield, their character cannot use any of the various neat shields supplied by the game. I agree that there should be some use of the shield for offensive purposes, but that's what the Shieldbash ability is for.

I tend to feel that "Character has an undroppable X that improves as the character gains levels" is generally more appropriate for specific NPCs than a whole kit in general.

Offline Demivrgvs

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Since a Kit Revisions is likely going to be my third work I think some nice discussion is always good  ;D

First and foremost I think that most kits should have disadvantages that balance their advantages (pratically all vanilla's kits are much more powerful than the base class). For example the Cavalier kit makes a plain Paladin really useless. He gain immunity to charm, fear and poison, elemental resistances, +thac0 and damage vs. demons/dragons...and sacrificing what? He cannot use missile weapons. Wow, what a drawback!  :o  And then take the poor Wizard Slayer, he get some nice advantages but loosing the ability to use magical amulets, girdles, rings, ...is really too much compared to 40% magic resistance (some items easily protect even better from spells) and the spell failure on hit. Instead balancing advantages and disadvantages you can create powerful and interesting kits that doesn't outshine the original class (the Archer and a not-dualled Kensei are good example imo).

Generally speaking mastery should be restricted to fighters, even specialization should (proficiency points are the only advantage of the fighter class!), but that would probably be an unwelcome change for players. Druids may use bows, I personlly won't do it but I can't see nothing wrong about it (it seems to fit them).

I see you want to reduce the power of dual-classing. I think the more obvious power of it is the ability to gain the most from a kit with few levels and than dual to another class without pratically loosing nothing. One solution could be to have class advantages spread between all levels (e.g. like archer's called shot or the wizard slayer's magic resistance). Some exploits are pratically unavoidable, like dualing a 7th level Berserker, but you may add some drawback (e.g. disable spellcasting while frenzied).

Paladin
- Paladins should be immune to fear and disease as per PnP. That's the strangest omission imo.
- Cure disease once/day for every 5 levels

Kensei
I hate that 99% of players use this class only to make the cheesy kensai-mage or even cheesier kensei-thief. The best solution imo is to use Refinements which change Use Any Item with Use Scrolls (waaay more balanced). Anyway I would go for:
- cannot dual class (I think kensei characters in PnP really aren't suited for not devoting themselves to the art of the sword)
- to even the odds you can either allow them to wear bracers (not gauntlets) or add a +X AC every X levels

I may suggest many other things but I'm running out of time!  ;D
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 09:43:04 AM by Demivrgvs »

Offline Daulmakan

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Paladin
- Paladins should be immune to fear and disease as per PnP. That's the strangest omission imo.
Unkitted paladins aren't immune to fear in 2E AD&D.

Offline Demivrgvs

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You're right, thought immunity to fear is the first thing that depicts a paladin imo. Anyway if they should be exactly as per AD&D they were indeed immune to disease, had an aura of protection, irradiated a circle of power when wielding a Holy Avengerand and they were able to "turn" devils and demons as clerics do with undead!  :o  I was not suggesting to stick with 2nd or 3rd edition, just make a true class paladin a little more appealing.  ;)

Offline Daulmakan

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You're right, thought immunity to fear is the first thing that depicts a paladin imo. Anyway if they should be exactly as per AD&D they were indeed immune to disease, had an aura of protection, irradiated a circle of power when wielding a Holy Avengerand and they were able to "turn" devils and demons as clerics do with undead!  :o  I was not suggesting to stick with 2nd or 3rd edition, just make a true class paladin a little more appealing.  ;)
Aura of power thing strikes me as very powerful for BG2. 50% MR for everyone and instantly dispel all hostile spells inferior to the paladin's level?? Game would be a breeze.

The turn demons ability doesn't seem familiar to me. Is that 1E, 3E, or what? (I have NWN and I don't recall it)

Offline Demivrgvs

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Quote
Aura of power thing strikes me as very powerful for BG2. 50% MR for everyone and instantly dispel all hostile spells inferior to the paladin's level?? Game would be a breeze.
2nd edition's Circle of Power "only" has the latter effect, the "aura of magic resistance" is what 3rd edition's holy avengers do. Anyway I think both effects are extremely powerful, especially the dispelling one, and neither are necessary nor I'm suggesting to use them.
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The turn demons ability doesn't seem familiar to me. Is that 1E, 3E, or what?
It's 2nd edition, the one on which BG2 is mostly based on. I actually don't like it. As I've said I'm not suggesting to perfectly replicate PnP classes and kits, especially because many things can't be correctly ported in a computer game (e.g. paladin's code of conduct).

Offline Daulmakan

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It's 2nd edition, the one on which BG2 is mostly based on. I actually don't like it. As I've said I'm not suggesting to perfectly replicate PnP classes and kits, especially because many things can't be correctly ported in a computer game (e.g. paladin's code of conduct).
Um, no.

Paladins can only turn undead in 2E.

And as to the circle of power:
2nd edition's Circle of Power "only" has the latter effect, the "aura of magic resistance" is what 3rd edition's holy avengers do.

Quote from: 2E Complete Paladin's Handbook
A paladin using a holy sword projects a circle of power 10 feet in diameter when the sword is unsheated and held.
Within its range, the circle of power dispels all hostile magic of a level less than or equal to the paladin's experience level and creates a magic resistance of 50%.

Offline Demivrgvs

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After this post I'm not going to continue a debate on "this is 2nd ed - no it's not".

Anyway I've the 2nd edition player handbook here, the one with the knight with a winged helm in the cover.
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A paladin gains the power to turn undead, devils and demons when he reaches 3rd level.
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A paladin using a holy sword projects a circle of power 30 feet in diameter when the sword is unsheated and held. This spell dispels hostile magic of a level up to the paladin's experience level.

Is it possible that two versions of 2nd edition PHB exist? Anyway we're going off-topic, and nowhere near what I was trying to suggest. Use whatever edition you'd like (though I personally think 4th edition is horrible) if it has good ideas. Just make weak classes/kits more appealing and give the most powerful ones some decent drawbacks.  :)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 11:21:03 AM by Demivrgvs »

Offline SixOfSpades

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Overall, the most important thing is to make all classes/kits playable, and therefore mostly equal in terms of power vs. the various enemies in the game, and the second most important thing is to keep the classes and kits from stomping on each others' territory. The Inquisitor and the Monk have no business being a better Wizard Slayer than the Wizard Slayer, and with Weimer's Improved Undead installed, the Cavalier makes a better Undead Hunter than an Undead Hunter. These must be remedied.

My changes to the Paladin are designed to make them more focused against their chosen foe. The Cavalier, for example, will no longer be immune to Fear effects in general, but rather the specific effects of Demon Fear, Dragon Fear, and Hell Fear. Meanwhile, the Undead Hunter picks up immunity to Vampire Fear. And I'm seriously considering taking away Turn Undead from the default Paladin (making the Undead Hunter the only one who can use it), and breaking up Carsomyr into two weapons: One is a +5 Two-Handed Sword that does extra damage to Evil targets, usable only by Lawful Good Paladins, and the other is a +5 Two-Handed Sword that grants 50% Magic Resistance, casts Dispel Magic, and Dispels on hit, usable only by Lawful Inquisitors, Wizard Slayers, and Hunters of the Occult.

Offline Demivrgvs

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Quote
Overall, the most important thing is to make all classes/kits playable, and therefore mostly equal in terms of power vs. the various enemies in the game, and the second most important thing is to keep the classes and kits from stomping on each others' territory. The Inquisitor and the Monk have no business being a better Wizard Slayer than the Wizard Slayer, and with Weimer's Improved Undead installed, the Cavalier makes a better Undead Hunter than an Undead Hunter. These must be remedied.
I totally agree. I was thinking too that Undead Slayer's lack of immunity to charm and fear effects make them less useful than a Cavalier against most undead creatures.
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My changes to the Paladin are designed to make them more focused against their chosen foe. The Cavalier, for example, will no longer be immune to Fear effects in general, but rather the specific effects of Demon Fear, Dragon Fear, and Hell Fear. Meanwhile, the Undead Hunter picks up immunity to Vampire Fear.
It's a very interesting tweak I've never considered, though making a kit too specialized may also reduce its appeal (players probably prefer a character who can handle most situations, not a character that makes only very selected encounters too easy). That is why I'd probably prefer Cavaliers to retain their immunity to all fear effects, especially because I find their fire and acid resistances to be less tailored than fear immunity for the kit.
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And I'm seriously considering taking away Turn Undead from the default Paladin (making the Undead Hunter the only one who can use it),...
I was thinking too to remove Turn Undead from Cavalier (it sounds right) but removing it from the True Paladin may bee too much considering that from1st to 4th edition this class has been particularly powerful against them.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 04:34:11 PM by Demivrgvs »

Offline laughing doc

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Re: General Questions / Comments about the Class/Kit Rebalancing component
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2008, 10:40:41 PM »
okay everything sounds great .yet i can not... i am new to moding .how do i install my new six pack. :-[.shouldnt be too hard right.unzipped files.i even get the pictures as they copy to bg2 file.no new kits when i start a new game though.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: General Questions / Comments about the Class/Kit Rebalancing component
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2008, 02:34:08 PM »
i am new to moding .how do i install my new six pack.
If you installed to the correct directory (which I believe is almost a given), in your "BGII - SoA" directory there will be a subdirectory called "Kitpack6" and a file called "Setup-Kitpack6.exe." The Setup program (of any mod, not just mine) is what actually installs the new content in your game. Just double-click it, and you will be asked about which components of the mod you would like to have installed. It helps if you familiarize yourself with the README (located inside the Kitpack6 directory) before running the Setup program.

andrew

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Hi SOS!

I interpret your readme to say that you intend to nerf dual and multi class characters so that they'll be roughly equal in power with single class characters. I share your disdain of powergaming but this idea doesn't even make role-playing sense to me. It's broadly logical that people with many talents and/or professions use their varied skills to somehow augment each other, thus making them more formidable than most, provided that their skills are roughly compatible with each other (for example, it's hard to see how someone who's a good scuba diver and a good poet could combine all of their skills at once). Perhaps I misinterpret your intentions?

BTW, I agree that the way multi classes get their HLA's has to be changed. It makes no sense that Jaheira can get a Critical Strike when leveling up as a druid or that Aerie can get Mass Raise Dead when leveling up as a mage.


Offline plainab

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I really think that Paladins should be able to reach Grand Mastery in at least the Great Swords category.  I may be wrong, but when I picture a Paladin I picture a Medieval Knight with a Divine purpose.  In my mind, Knight's have always been the better trained when compared to regular fighters.  Why is there a limitation on their training anyway?

Here's an idea (just for fun):
Make a new Paladin kit
 -- The Odoriferous Knight
Restrictions:
 -- Can only wear the various smelly Hide armors
 -- Cannot use any shields
 -- Can only use two handed weapons
 -- Max Charisma 10
 -- Min Charisma 3
 -- Cannot cast Lay On hands
Advantages:
 -- Odor causes human enemies to faint or flee unless a save roll is made
 -- Can gain Grand Mastery in Great Swords
 -- Can gain Mastery in Bows
 -- Can cast Stinking Cloud (area of effect gets larger until max and then length of time gets longer)
My working mods:
an AI Party Script for BG2 game engine DOWNLOAD LINK ONLY!
Interactive Tweaks for BG series with some IWD support. DOWNLOAD LINK ONLY!
Rest For 8 Hours an IWD mod
-------------------------------------------
My contributions: BG1Fixpack, BG1Tweaks
On Hold: Solestia an NPC for SOA
-------------------------------------------
My website: http://sasha-altherin.webs.com

Offline SixOfSpades

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I interpret your readme to say that you intend to nerf dual and multi class characters so that they'll be roughly equal in power with single class characters. I share your disdain of powergaming but this idea doesn't even make role-playing sense to me. It's broadly logical that people with many talents and/or professions use their varied skills to somehow augment each other, thus making them more formidable than most, provided that their skills are roughly compatible with each other. Perhaps I misinterpret your intentions?

BTW, I agree that the way multi classes get their HLA's has to be changed. It makes no sense that Jaheira can get a Critical Strike when leveling up as a druid or that Aerie can get Mass Raise Dead when leveling up as a mage.
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that Multiclassed HLA access is hardcoded: Jan can gain a new level as a Thief and learn how to cast Dragon's Breath, and there's just no way to enforce that he can only learn that spell when it's his Mage half that earned it. Sorry.

There are two motivations for my "watering down" the HLA options for the Multiclasses. One is somewhat subjective: I feel that their greater fluidity of HLA selections makes them (unfairly) more powerful than the Single- and Dual-classes, and it's part of my main objective to get all of the classes and kits on a more even footing. The other motive, on the other hand, is quite objective: A Multiclassed Fighter/Thief (or whatever) should not be able to attain more Fighter HLAs than someone who's spent his entire life as a Fighter. Yet a pureclassed Fighter gets 21 HLAs under the EXP cap; a Fighter/Thief gets 23. I agree, if a character can combine different skills to his advantage, well and good--but let them work by actually combining different skills (e.g., Assassination and Greater Evasion are absolutely lethal skills to put on a Tank), not by simply being able to toss out 2 more Critical Strikes per day than the pureclass Fighter can. I haven't worked out the specifics of how many of each HLA the Multiclasses will be able to choose, but I certainly won't be penalizing them too much--just enough to make them feel a bit disgruntled about "running out" of Greater Whirlwinds and having to choose regular Whirlwind instead.



I really think that Paladins should be able to reach Grand Mastery in at least the Great Swords category.  I may be wrong, but when I picture a Paladin I picture a Medieval Knight with a Divine purpose.  In my mind, Knight's have always been the better trained when compared to regular fighters.  Why is there a limitation on their training anyway?
There's a limitation on their training because a Paladin is a Fighter who can cast spells, use special abilities, and has a permanent -2 bonus to all Saving Throws. If they could reach Grandmastery as well, their only disadvantage would be their slower level progression (and their inability to combine with other classes), hardly a significant drawback. In this mod, I gave pureclassed Paladins the abilitiy to reach Mastery only to help them catch back up with the various Paladin kits, not with the Fighter class.

Odoriferous Knight idea . . . hmm. Frankly, I feel this is much more suited for a Barbarian than a Paladin. The Hide armor restriction could be done by giving the kit the same item restrictions as the Archer, but the "no Shields" and "only 2-handed weapons" could not actually be implemented--you'd have to just allow them much greater weapon specialization with 2-handed weapons, which would simply make 1-handers and shields undesirable. This "odor causes human enemies to faint"--were you thinking of that as a permanent effect? I would be against it: If the making the Save is easy enough to avoid making the game too easy, it would also have to be so easy that the Stench effect would happen so rarely as to be nearly negligible. It would be more in tune with the spirit of the kit, I feel, to give them a Horrid Flatulence ability, which is difficult to control: When cast, the game rolls a d100 to determine how rancid the stench is, how long after cutting the cheese the aroma actually takes effect, or if the fart attempt even works at all.

andrew

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SOS-

I wholeheartedly agree with your thinking.

Perhaps one way to make multiclasses less unfairly powerful is to just ditch the HLA system entirely and replace it with another system. Is this possible?

Offline SixOfSpades

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Well, it should be possible to get rid of HLAs entirely for certain classes/kits (including just Multiclasses), but you can't really replace them with another system: The game is hardcoded to, after a character reaches a certain level, drag out the appropriate LU*** file and offer the player a selection from it at each Level-Up thereafter. So it would be possible to create all-new HLAs for Multiclasses, but that would be the only way of giving them something new. Not that there's anything really wrong with that approach.

 

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