Author Topic: a grammatical problem  (Read 2748 times)

blure

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a grammatical problem
« on: February 26, 2006, 05:10:42 AM »
What is the difference among "because, since, for and as" in the causation sense? I am always puzzled with them. I would appreciate if someone could present me an example.
Thanks.(My first language is not English)
( note: please correct my grammar or writing style of the sentences above, if there are )

« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 09:44:00 PM by blure »

Offline Rodman49

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2006, 08:37:29 PM »
Because tends to mean "for the sake of."  Since can usually be used in place of because, but because cannot always be used in place of since.

Using because and since interchangeably . . .
Ex.  Because you are not interested, I will not tell you.
Since you are not interested I will not tell you.

In addition to acting like because, since can used when referring to a time interval.
Ex.  We have been friends since childhood.
They have not been here since the accident.

Offline Veloxyll

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2006, 02:17:05 AM »
If referring to an event, I'd use them as follows:

Because

The house collapsed because a truck hit it.
You could get away with using since here, only an english professor would likely pull you up for it. The next point expands upon because and since. They are both in past tense however.

Since

The house slid down the hill since Peter hadn't made the foundations deep enough.
Very much similar. Personally, I'd use since when it's a person responsible, because when it's an object. But it;s totally up to you. I just use what feels right. "Because of heavy rains..." feels better than "Since there had been heavy rains...". Also an example of where since and because are not directly interchangable. Neat.

For

For the house to collapse it would have to be hit hard.
Finally one of the different ones. I'd use For when talking in future tense (events yet to happen). So here, it says For <Event> to happen <Cause> must come about. (fully cut up it's For <Object> to <event> it would have to <cause>)

As

As the payment had not been recieved his account had/needs to be suspended. I'd usually use this in present tense. Can be excanged with since in this example.
Note: I got lazy writing this one, so it's kind of incomplete.

As for your original sentence, only thing I'd change is between instead of among. I'd say among is used for when something is a part of a group, so "He's hiding among those trees", where between is when you're looking for differences in a defined group, "What is the difference between a tree and a villiage"
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Offline fcm

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2006, 02:25:06 AM »
Okay . . . strictly speaking:

"Because" is used to set up a reason for the clause it modifies:

Because I was speeding, I got a ticket.  ("Because I was speeding" modifies the main clause "I got a ticket." It basically tells why.)
I got a ticket because I was speeding.

Because I ate so much cake, I got sick.
I got sick because I ate so much cake. (again, "Because I ate so much cake" modifies the main clause "I got sick.")

Note "because" can be used either in the begining or the middle of a sentence.
If you're answering a question, e.g. "Why were you late?" It's acceptable to simply answer "Because I got a ticket." because the subject/main clause of the sentence is implied. It would be very redundant to restate the question, and you'd probably irritate the person you were talking to if that's how you always responded. In very formal writing, however, this would be incorrect.


Colloquially, "since" can be used interchangably with "because."
Formally (correctly,) "since" is only used to refer to temporal (time) relationships. Thus, the only correct way to use "since" is the following:

I've had a bad back since I was a child.
Since watching that movie, I've been afraid of ham sandwiches.



"for" and "as" are a little bit more difficult for me to explain, because they're not typically used to show causation. If you could post a rough example of a sentence using for/as for causation, I could probably help you more.

For now, "as" and "for" are just prepositions. The only outstandingly special thing I can think of is that "as" can be used to set up a metaphor. Other than that, they're used like the other prepositions.



Colloquially:
Any one of those words you've mentioned can be used to say "because," although "as" and "for" aren't used very frequently. It's not necessarily correct, but native English speakers do it constantly. If you're speaking colloquially, there really aren't any rules as to which word is used when and for what purpose. That's the "thing" about colloquial speech.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 02:27:20 AM by fcm »
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Offline Veloxyll

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2006, 01:22:43 AM »
fcm explains because and since way better than I do. Presumedly because I was guessing.
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Offline Jon

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2006, 11:22:49 PM »
Perhaps from your perspective. I don't think someone who hardly knows English will know what a clause is, and what colloquial means.
"Puppies do not cause cancer.  Puppies are more fun than weed.
I suggest everyone buy a puppy."

So sayeth the wise Icelus.

Offline fcm

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2006, 12:44:57 AM »
Perhaps from your perspective. I don't think someone who hardly knows English will know what a clause is, and what colloquial means.

Oh, ouch! I'd disagree, but Blure hasn't said anything in a long while, so . . . Who knows?
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Offline Bex

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2006, 01:33:47 AM »
That's a really, really odd first (and only) post to make on a modding forum (and it was moved from one of the mod or game discussion boards).
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Offline Jon

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2006, 01:48:35 AM »
Drugs, porn, politics.. I think grammar would fit right in.  :)
"Puppies do not cause cancer.  Puppies are more fun than weed.
I suggest everyone buy a puppy."

So sayeth the wise Icelus.

Offline Bex

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2006, 12:15:29 PM »
I'm not saying that it doesn't fit as a subject for off-topic discussion, but that the apparent thought process behind the thread creation was "Hmm, I don't really understand how these words are used. I know! I will create a user account at Pocket Plane Group and ask about it in one of their game forums!"
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2006, 12:30:36 PM »
We *are* one of the few internet sites where people write with grammar.

Offline Rodman49

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2006, 02:59:08 PM »
We *are* one of the few internet sites where people write with grammar.

On account that we are not l337 l-ll9l-l5<l-l00l_ l-l/-\><0|25!

Offline Eral

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2006, 07:31:39 PM »
Well if Blure is a troll in disguise, he/she is a really subtle one, and gets points all round for creativity and style.
If you see anything mysterious or unusual, just enjoy it while you can.  - Michael Leunig.

Offline Jon

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2006, 08:14:01 PM »
Heaven forbid we just welcome a newcomer and help him out.. ::)
"Puppies do not cause cancer.  Puppies are more fun than weed.
I suggest everyone buy a puppy."

So sayeth the wise Icelus.

Offline Bex

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2006, 08:56:32 PM »
Help was provided. I merely made an observation, and it wasn't (meant to be)accusatory.
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blure

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2006, 06:24:24 AM »

"for" and "as" are a little bit more difficult for me to explain, because they're not typically used to show causation. If you could post a rough example of a sentence using for/as for causation, I could probably help you more.


  Okay, a sentence is post as follow:
  Since both rapid and light rail have electric engines, pollution is measured not form exhaust, but from the power plant generating electictity, which is usually located outside the city, where air quality problems are less serious.

   What I want to ask is whether "since" can  be replaced by "as" or "for" without changing the original meaning, particularly in scientific & technological Thesis.
   
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 07:03:31 AM by blure »

blure

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2006, 06:56:09 AM »
Perhaps from your perspective. I don't think someone who hardly knows English will know what a clause is, and what colloquial means.

Maybe I couldn't agree with you.

blure

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2006, 07:15:55 AM »
We *are* one of the few internet sites where people write with grammar.

It's probably not necessary to write with grammar for a native speaker or an expert user, but it is really important for someone who has some problems in English.

blure

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2006, 07:30:13 AM »
Well if Blure is a troll in disguise, he/she is a really subtle one, and gets points all round for creativity and style.

I am just a newcomer, and I found this forum from a Chinese forum on BG.

blure

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2006, 07:46:01 AM »
Could you recommend me some popular forums?

Offline fcm

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Re: a grammatical problem
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2006, 08:29:20 AM »
Wow, you know two of the most difficult languages on the face of the planet! Congratulations on that!



See, you guys are paranoid. Blure is just a BG fan like everyone else.
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