Author Topic: Shadow Thieves commentary  (Read 4626 times)

Offline Bex

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Shadow Thieves commentary
« on: December 16, 2005, 01:57:21 AM »
So... I figured this would be a decent fill-in quest while killing time waiting for my theatre troupe to get their act together for dress rehearsal. And it didn't start out too bad. By the way, A-pack's Shadow Thief Improvements are compatible, and the outdoorsy Elite Guards left over from that are a nice addition to the changes inside.

The worst thing about the first floor was all those guards, actually. They got in the way. Confusion, slow, and glitterdust are reasonably effective. Renal's floor is actually easier because I don't have to watch out for guards and can cast things like fireball. So... down to the lower level.

Ok... this was a LOT harder than I expected, and I'm impressed with the scripting. I admit that I was getting a bit peeved by those elite guards chopping up my party members after being paralyzed by an archer or made hopeless by a mage, but I didn't go in especially well-prepared and was too stubborn to leave, even though I was rapidly running out of spells. Eventually, I was down to desperately digging through inventory praying to find a scroll of true sight. This search also yielded a scroll of delayed blast fireball, which, when launched into Aran's room, did a lot to turn the tables in my group's favour. Whew.

(Plus, it would be bad roleplaying to go away and rest and expect them to not re-fortify their defenses.)

Nothing these thieves have access to is unreasonable. (Provided the archers with wands of paralysis are bards or thief-mages or something. Hard to tell in the confusion.) Anyway, it's really basic equipment and spells and such, but used cleverly. Extremely cleverly in some cases. They actually work together. My enemies are supposed to work together?

Sadly, the quest was not without strangeness. Content from Cliffette's Every Mod and Dog was cropping up where it most definitely should not. (The thieves' maze looks nothing like Imnesvale! Bees are stupid.)  Since I'd already been pestering her about this quest not working, the fact that it finally DID work in another time and place is especially interesting. (QP installed after EMaD.)

Additionally, should any of these things have happened? They did in my game, but perhaps they don't so much need fixing as I need a swift kick someplace.

1. Shadow thieves set off a couple of the lightning bolt traps in passages and fried themselves. Most traps were not triggerable by anything other than party members, as it should be, since I haven't added any trap-altering tweaks. (See screenshot.)
2. "Floating" Shadow Thief snipers. (See screenshot.)
3.  Aran not recognizing that I'm a bleeding traitor. It seems to me that he should.
4. "Bodhi's tasks" journal update when Aran's room was cleared.
5. Prisoners other than Tizzak cannot be freed, and speak as though we're meeting for the first time.

Other than that, a few things popped out at me. I didn't see any party member interjections. It seems to me that Jaheira, Anomen, and Minsc all found the Shadow Thieves' prison and torture chambers rather reprehensible when we first visited, and I think they would have had something to say about the quest. Keldorn is another one that I remember saying he'd like to come back once we no longer needed Aran's help.

I believe I recall this from the original game, but the description of Aran's Ring of Invisibility says he gave it to me. If by "gave," it means "I looted it from his steaming corpse" then yeah, that makes sense. Are there even any circumstances under which he actually does give it to you? Or is that a developer oversight?
Silverjon's Journal: a Baldur's Gate fanfic/semi-AAR, by yours truly

Offline Bex

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Re: Shadow Thieves commentary
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2005, 02:14:24 AM »
The last three images show Cliffette's mod content showing up in the thieves' maze. This is not a mixed-up string issue, as you can see, but a misplaced quest.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c71/FoxTracker/BG2%20screenshots/1Whatsbehinddoor1.jpg)
What's behind door #1?

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c71/FoxTracker/BG2%20screenshots/2Ohgreatnowtheycanflytoo.jpg)
Oh great, now they can fly too.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c71/FoxTracker/BG2%20screenshots/3Cutscene.jpg)
Cutscene? I didn't order any cutscene.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c71/FoxTracker/BG2%20screenshots/4Thisisreallynotagoodtime.jpg)
This is really NOT a good time.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c71/FoxTracker/BG2%20screenshots/5AndnowIvepickedupanothertag-along.jpg)
And now I've picked up another tag-along....

Crud... these end up being small enough it's hard to tell what's going on, and I'm too tired to fix it.
Silverjon's Journal: a Baldur's Gate fanfic/semi-AAR, by yours truly

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Shadow Thieves commentary
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2005, 08:26:25 AM »
When you mention the battle, I'm having a tough time discerning when you're talking about A-Pack stuff. I'm don't think Wands of Paralyzation are anything to do with me, but the constant stream of invisible thieves trying to backstab you, for whom you were probably looking for True Sight, is me.

Cliffette's material cropping up inappropriately sounds more like a problem with that mod than anything I've done, but I'll check nonetheless.

I'm having trouble seeing what's going on in those screenshots, yes. If you could provide a save prior to entering the lower level, that'd help me follow what's going on. (It'd also help me verify the other issues you mention without playing through half the game!)

And finally, Aran's Ring of Invisibility is a QP item, not from the original game (the best part of modding is when people mistake the difference though...). I'll edit the description. He actually *gives* it to you on one of the other story arcs, but I imagine more often than not the player will obtain it by killing him.

Offline Bex

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Re: Shadow Thieves commentary
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2005, 12:13:55 PM »
When you mention the battle, I'm having a tough time discerning when you're talking about A-Pack stuff. I'm don't think Wands of Paralyzation are anything to do with me, but the constant stream of invisible thieves trying to backstab you, for whom you were probably looking for True Sight, is me.

Interesting. It probably is the interaction between the two mods that made it so difficult then. I thought replacing the inside of the guild had removed all the A-pack stuff. At any rate, the two work OK together, and provide quite the level of challenge. Next time, I'll play it without A-pack and see how different it is.

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Cliffette's material cropping up inappropriately sounds more like a problem with that mod than anything I've done, but I'll check nonetheless.

Yeah, I've already mentioned it to her.

I'll pack up a save. (Wow, I've made 162 separate save slots with this game.) I'm including the WeiDU log as well. I know there are things that aren't optimal (like Kelsey being installed after QP).
Silverjon's Journal: a Baldur's Gate fanfic/semi-AAR, by yours truly

Offline Bex

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Re: Shadow Thieves commentary
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2005, 08:03:24 PM »
Having had all day to think about it, I'm willing to bet that any strangeness relating to the game not being able to decide if I was killing Aran for Bodhi (Aran's reaction, Bodhi journal update) or Brega is also due to the A-pack content.

That said, Gaelan Bayle and Arledrian should probably catch wind of my activities. They still seem quite friendly.

And according to the commoners and merchants, crime is still terrible in the district. There's just no helping some people.

Silverjon's Journal: a Baldur's Gate fanfic/semi-AAR, by yours truly

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Shadow Thieves commentary
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2005, 12:34:08 PM »
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1. Shadow thieves set off a couple of the lightning bolt traps in passages and fried themselves. Most traps were not triggerable by anything other than party members, as it should be, since I haven't added any trap-altering tweaks. (See screenshot.)
Investigation reveals that Bioware always had these traps coded that way, and APack doesn't change this. I may do an overhaul of the traps in that area at some point.

Quote
2. "Floating" Shadow Thief snipers. (See screenshot.)
Unsure of what would cause this, short of APack doing something very, very strange. Chalk it down to weirdness, but someone let me know if it occurs again.

Quote
3.  Aran not recognizing that I'm a bleeding traitor. It seems to me that he should.
What are you expecting him to say? For me, he's spouting something to the effect of "come for me, have you?" If he's politely inviting you to kill Bodhi, then yes, something's gone wrong.

Quote
4. "Bodhi's tasks" journal update when Aran's room was cleared.
Is my fault. Fixed.

Quote
5. Prisoners other than Tizzak cannot be freed, and speak as though we're meeting for the first time.
I don't think they can be freed until after you kill Aran, at which point you should be able to inform them that he's dead. This is rather stupid design on my part. The latter issue is also my fault. Will endeavour to fix both.

Offline Bex

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Re: Shadow Thieves commentary
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2005, 03:10:22 PM »
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3.  Aran not recognizing that I'm a bleeding traitor. It seems to me that he should.
What are you expecting him to say? For me, he's spouting something to the effect of "come for me, have you?" If he's politely inviting you to kill Bodhi, then yes, something's gone wrong.

I believe "Come for me, have you?" is his default dialogue for Bodhi as well. I just think it would make more sense if a line were added recognizing that you've double-crossed him after he helped you get to Spellhold.

"I thought we had an understanding, Charname, but you can't expect me to hold back now." Something like that.

I'd also really like to see the Bioware NPCs recognizing that we're doing exactly what they wished for in Chapter 3, unless that is already coded and the A-pack stuff was blocking it somehow.
Silverjon's Journal: a Baldur's Gate fanfic/semi-AAR, by yours truly

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Shadow Thieves commentary
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2005, 03:22:42 PM »
I believe "Come for me, have you?" is his default dialogue for Bodhi as well. I just think it would make more sense if a line were added recognizing that you've double-crossed him after he helped you get to Spellhold.
Default dialogue for Bodhi should be "I admit I never thought that the bitch Bodhi would have the courage to invade. No matter. You shall be the first to fall!" I don't think Aran's naive enough to trust the player beyond what the chapter 3 deal requires, but on examination I'm not entirely happy with the line anyway so I'll likely change it.

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I'd also really like to see the Bioware NPCs recognizing that we're doing exactly what they wished for in Chapter 3, unless that is already coded and the A-pack stuff was blocking it somehow.
My oversight. NPC interjects are not my forte, so feel free to point out other opportunities where somebody should have said something.

Offline Bex

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Re: Shadow Thieves commentary
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2005, 03:27:54 PM »
Anomen, Jaheira, and Keldorn all express a desire to come back later and deal with the evil, nasty thieves. I imagine Mazzy probably feels the same way.

I think appropriate times for interjections would be when Brega offers the quest (Do it, Charname!) and when confronting Aran (You're getting what you deserve).
Silverjon's Journal: a Baldur's Gate fanfic/semi-AAR, by yours truly

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Shadow Thieves commentary
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2005, 04:31:33 PM »
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2. "Floating" Shadow Thief snipers. (See screenshot.)
This is indeed due to aPack's Shadow Thief Improments--they were there standing on nothing for me, too, and what's more, they were firing not Arrows Of Ice or Acid, as seems to be the case in your screenshot, but rather Arrows of Detonation. Which, by the way, do not bounce off the Shield of Reflection.


All told, I'm surprised you found the long, hard slog so easy--I can only assume that Sim's more sane coding and stats overwrote aVENGER's Kensai->Thieves, Thief/Mages, and Assassin->Fighters. Which were invisible and not detectable by any means, apart from when they landed a successful Backstab. Then again, I [/i]did[/i] fight them in Chapter 3 (after doing every available sidequest), not Chapter 6 as you did.

Offline Bex

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Re: Shadow Thieves commentary
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2005, 05:46:25 PM »
It wasn't precisely easy. I reloaded a lot down there, with the gauntlet ambush and the mage battle mostly. And the snipers did have a few arrows of detonation each (thankfully only a few). Using the wands of paralysis from the other archers wound up being the best trick, though I discovered that relatively late.

The higher levels and better equipment and spells from being in a later chapter probably helped a lot, and it was still challenging.
Silverjon's Journal: a Baldur's Gate fanfic/semi-AAR, by yours truly

 

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