Author Topic: Church closed for Christmas  (Read 19400 times)

Offline Joe

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2005, 02:47:52 PM »
What part of "American Protestants seem like the types to match up business and religion" is non-disparaging to American Protestants?


What part of it isn't? Do you find business to be some intrinsic evil?

In any case, evangelicals often use business strategies to attract new members to their congregations. Those huge congregations have already been brought up, where hundreds and thousands of people attend. That's very commercial and impersonal in my opinion.

Offline Loriel

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2005, 02:57:23 PM »
Well you know, American Protestants seem like the types to match up business and religion. So I wouldn't be surprised.
What part of "American Protestants seem like the types to match up business and religion" is non-disparaging to American Protestants?  Being that they are the majority of people in our great nation I'm pretty sure a substantial number of people will find that offensive.  It's OK if you don't care that they are, but don't tell me that this isn't a cut on the faith of every American Christian that isn't catholic.  At least be honest about it.

I am an American Protestant, but I don't find this statement to be derogatory unless the convention is accepted that "business is bad" or that the insinuation is that the church is now making money as a first preference, rather than tending to the spiritual needs of it's congregation.  I personally believe that one's faith is completely integrated into every part of their lives, and that includes business.  If you divorce your faith from any aspect of your life, then it's probably only "convenient religion".  If a church abandons their duty of spiritual guidance, or if they have used the pulpit as a way to make money, that's a Bad Thing™.

I have been to several Protestant churches that have a form of business attached (bookstore, etc) as a means of supporting the church (instead of begging people to give them money), and I don't have a problem with that.  One example from the New Testament to support this would be the Apostle Paul - he was a tent-maker by trade, even though we know him as a major religious leader.  He supported himself by means of business as opposed to living on the charity of others.  There are plenty of other examples:  Peter, James, and John were fishermen, and even Jesus was a carpenter.

Most likely, the author of the statement was making a broad sweeping insult against Americans and/or Protestants.  I think the fact that you would insult that large of a group of people means you have a big set of cajones.  It's like walking through Brooklyn with a sign around your neck that you hate black people.  I can only attibute that statement to ignorance (which can be overcome through education) or stupidity (which you're stuck with).  For the record, I don't think Joe is stupid.  ;D

Ack, you responded before I could.  Regarding those big "commercial and impersonal" churches - I have studied a couple of them intensely, including their programs for attracting new members.  Some of them have memberships greater than ten thousand.  That doesn't mean that they only have one big service.  A church that size can only survive if they have small group programs to foster a sense of intimacy.  They may use a commercial billboard or TV add to attract the attention of people in the area, but once you come to the church, there are plenty of programs to make you feel at home instead of feeling like you're at an arena.

Offline Borsook

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2005, 03:15:30 PM »
what's a cajone?
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Offline jester

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2005, 03:47:33 PM »
I guess he means balls in Spanish.

EDIT: Calvin surely made my relationship with protestantism sour. Our idealistic branch died together with Thomas Münzer. A man whose cojones I admire as much as I despise Luther and his cronies. I am a protestant myself so any argument I am hating another religion is lost on me. That said I think Catholics are the worst. :P No, really Opus Dei is as bad as the Cosa Nostra.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 03:54:44 PM by jester »
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Offline Joe

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2005, 03:54:29 PM »
I am an American Protestant, but I don't find this statement to be derogatory unless the convention is accepted that "business is bad" or that the insinuation is that the church is now making money as a first preference, rather than tending to the spiritual needs of it's congregation.  I personally believe that one's faith is completely integrated into every part of their lives, and that includes business.  If you divorce your faith from any aspect of your life, then it's probably only "convenient religion".  If a church abandons their duty of spiritual guidance, or if they have used the pulpit as a way to make money, that's a Bad Thing™.

I have been to several Protestant churches that have a form of business attached (bookstore, etc) as a means of supporting the church (instead of begging people to give them money), and I don't have a problem with that.  One example from the New Testament to support this would be the Apostle Paul - he was a tent-maker by trade, even though we know him as a major religious leader.  He supported himself by means of business as opposed to living on the charity of others.  There are plenty of other examples:  Peter, James, and John were fishermen, and even Jesus was a carpenter.

Most likely, the author of the statement was making a broad sweeping insult against Americans and/or Protestants.  I think the fact that you would insult that large of a group of people means you have a big set of cajones.  It's like walking through Brooklyn with a sign around your neck that you hate black people.  I can only attibute that statement to ignorance (which can be overcome through education) or stupidity (which you're stuck with).  For the record, I don't think Joe is stupid.  ;D

Ack, you responded before I could.  Regarding those big "commercial and impersonal" churches - I have studied a couple of them intensely, including their programs for attracting new members.  Some of them have memberships greater than ten thousand.  That doesn't mean that they only have one big service.  A church that size can only survive if they have small group programs to foster a sense of intimacy.  They may use a commercial billboard or TV add to attract the attention of people in the area, but once you come to the church, there are plenty of programs to make you feel at home instead of feeling like you're at an arena.

I was referring to many evangelical marketing strategies. Many churches use a "business model" to attract new members.

Offline Eral

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2005, 05:23:12 PM »
Apologies to Rabain and melora. "Mick" is not a derogatory term here.  I am born of two Irish Catholics, and I teach in a Catholic school. Members of my family regularly use the word "Mick" to describe ourselves and others. My mother has never told us not to, and as she is a woman who objects vigourously to "shut-up", I have assumed I was well within the bounds of courtesy. It may be that this is another example of how Australians have strange standards when it comes to acceptable language. Sorry for the offense, it was unintended.

The churches in question were described as "mega-churches" - a group operating under the same banner, in different states. The evangelical ones Joe mentioned fit the bill. The reason they gave for closing was so that people could spend more time with their families. Since going to church is often a family activity, I thought this was a little spurious. But very funny.
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Offline Drew

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2005, 05:41:12 PM »
@Joe:  people don't get offended by what you mean or why you mean it.  They get offended by what you say and how you say it.   Something worth thinking about in the future. 
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Offline Joe

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2005, 05:44:56 PM »
@Joe:  people don't get offended by what you mean or why you mean it.  They get offended by what you say and how you say it.   Something worth thinking about in the future. 

They ought to get over it or ignore my posts. Though I believe it is only you who has said anything about taking offense to my comments. I don't know where this "people" comes from.

Offline Drew

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2005, 06:02:54 PM »
That's fine, Joe.  But I wasn't offended.  However, I wasn't the only person that interpreted your comments as an attack against protestants in general.  (Reread Loriel's post.)  I imagine that a great many Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Baptists, and members of the various Orthodox churches as well as many other denominations would resent being lumped in with the category you have created.  I really don't care what you do, Joe.  Just don't be surprised when people take offense when you say things like that.  While they could simply not read your posts this seems a flimsy reason to post insensitively since, ostensibly, you are posting things so people would read them.  It seems counter productive to me.   
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Offline Joe

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2005, 06:19:31 PM »
That's fine, Joe.  But I wasn't offended.  However, I wasn't the only person that interpreted your comments as an attack against protestants in general.  (Reread Loriel's post.)  I imagine that a great many Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Baptists, and members of the various Orthodox churches as well as many other denominations would resent being lumped in with the category you have created.  I really don't care what you do, Joe.  Just don't be surprised when people take offense when you say things like that.  While they could simply not read your posts this seems a flimsy reason to post insensitively since, ostensibly, you are posting things so people would read them.  It seems counter productive to me.   

Wouldn't it be prudent to not comment on the offensiveness of one's comments until someone is actually offended by them?

Offline Drew

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2005, 07:23:44 PM »
Not after seeing that person get in the exact type of trouble I'm describing for doing the exact same type of thing in several different threads......Just thought you'd like to know why it keeps happening to you.  Obviously I was wrong.  You know, but don't care.  And that's fine.  Some people like arguing.  Personally, I abhor it.
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Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2005, 07:37:56 PM »
The one god religions can burn in hell that they fear. How I despise christainanity and the hippocracy that they spew forth to the masses of the world. All they care about is filling their coffers with money from the brained washed people they preach to.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2005, 07:41:58 PM »
Cheer up. :)
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Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2005, 07:46:16 PM »
Cheer up. :)
I will once my tranqs quick in. Than I won't care. :D
Per me si va nella citta dolente.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2005, 07:53:29 PM »
Cheer up. :)
I will once my tranqs quick in. Than I won't care. :D

Hmmm. If I were you I'd probably go after more drugs or a general happier outlook... the latter of which is cheaper and healthier. ;)
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Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2005, 08:01:59 PM »
Well they do put me in a mellow mood so I will stick with this. I'm by nature not the happy sort any way.
Per me si va nella citta dolente.
Per me si va nell eterno dolore.
Per me si va tra la perduta gente...
Lasciate ogni speranza perduta che'entrate!

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Offline Andyr

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2005, 08:06:18 PM »
Perhaps by nurture you could be.
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Offline icelus

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2005, 08:07:35 PM »
Andy is trying to revive the SimDing0 Modder Dating Service.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2005, 08:08:25 PM »
Doing anything nice tomorrow night, Ice? :)
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Offline icelus

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2005, 08:10:18 PM »
No thank you.  You never call the next day. 
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2005, 08:15:26 PM »
;_;
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Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2005, 08:28:17 PM »
You guys are nuts.  :)
Per me si va nella citta dolente.
Per me si va nell eterno dolore.
Per me si va tra la perduta gente...
Lasciate ogni speranza perduta che'entrate!

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Offline Borsook

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2005, 01:51:32 AM »
Andy is trying to revive the SimDing0 Modder Dating Service.
Seriously. Yes, seriously. Really, I'm serious here. Will send photos of my unsmiling face to all disbelievers. So, seriously I think the said revival may not be a bad idea. Really.

PS. I must also say I'm highly suprised that so many good people are caught up in a thing called religion.
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Offline Sorrow

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2005, 05:01:31 AM »
I made my own religion :).
Siblinghood
Unity
Peace

One Vision!
One Purpose!

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Offline Evaine Dian

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2005, 05:08:02 AM »
...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 12:10:38 PM by Evaine Dian »
"Show me how you do that trick! The one that makes me scream", she said,
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