Author Topic: Church closed for Christmas  (Read 19392 times)

Offline Imrahil

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #175 on: December 11, 2005, 06:53:14 PM »
No, I'm just telling you what a character in a movie said.  The character is saying that one is an unprovable leap of faith while the other is being gullible.

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Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #176 on: December 11, 2005, 06:58:41 PM »

I thought she did, and had a second son after Jesus. I admit it's been some time since I looked at a bible though.

I don't know what your evidence is. Joseph was a widow and had children from that previous marriage.

Jester's link disagrees with you.
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Offline Joe

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #177 on: December 11, 2005, 07:07:07 PM »
Jester's link disagrees with you.

Yes, it does. But that doesn't make it right.

That Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus is a doctrinal stance of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Of the early fathers of the Church, only Tertullian seems to have questioned the teaching.

The question of Mary's virginity is related to the interpretation of the New Testament references to Jesus' "brothers". Those who defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity point out that Aramaic, the language spoken by Christ and his disciples, lacked a specific word for "cousin," so that the word "brother" was used instead. This is also true in Hebrew, and there are several places in the Old Testament that use the word "brother" to mean nephew or cousin. Others argue that Jesus' "brothers" were sons of Joseph by a previous wife - and thus Jesus' stepbrothers, who would have been regarded as his half-brothers by the people Jesus and Mary lived alongside, who were unaware of Jesus' divinity and assumed him to be the son of Joseph.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%2C_Mother_of_God#Perpetual_virginity

Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #178 on: December 11, 2005, 07:41:15 PM »
And his sisters?

Edit: Also, from Jester's site
Matthew 1:25 NAB tells us: "He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus." He, Joseph, did not have sexual relations with her, Mary, UNTIL after she bore a son, Jesus."
http://www.gotquestions.org/perpetual-virginity-Mary.html
« Last Edit: December 11, 2005, 07:44:44 PM by Veloxyll »
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Offline Joe

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #179 on: December 11, 2005, 07:48:04 PM »
The same goes for his sisters. Jester's site is speculative as the Bible does not say that Joseph had sex with Mary after Jesus was born.

Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #180 on: December 11, 2005, 07:58:57 PM »
it also claims, if you'd read it, that there's no biblical reason to believe that she stayed celibate. there's no logical reason for it either. They're married, they're in love, they're not under any form of compulsion not to. What reason, logical or biblical can you give that indicates that Mary and Joseph would never have engaged in sexual relations?
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Offline Drew

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #181 on: December 11, 2005, 10:21:50 PM »
it also claims, if you'd read it, that there's no biblical reason to believe that she stayed celibate. there's no logical reason for it either. They're married, they're in love, they're not under any form of compulsion not to. What reason, logical or biblical can you give that indicates that Mary and Joseph would never have engaged in sexual relations?
There is none.  To be fair, the fact that I have 2 kids is not proof that I've had sex with my wife.  I could be celibate and she could just be banging someone on the side.....
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Offline Borsook

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #182 on: December 11, 2005, 10:40:08 PM »

The bible. If there was anything else important in her life please quote.

Whether there was or wasn't anything else more important that she herself did (I'd say giving birth to the Son of God to be no small accomplishment) is irrelevant. You have no reason to believe she "shut up and listened" to Joseph. She never slept with her husband. I am sure that was quite a dedication to their love that Joseph had to make.
Oh, so now you say she had a baby and did not sleep with other men (joseph) Great role model. Now wonder catholics have treated women like that.
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Offline Borsook

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #183 on: December 11, 2005, 10:41:29 PM »

As long as he doesn't preach it I don't really see the problem.

Why?
And why does it bother anyone?
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Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #184 on: December 11, 2005, 11:39:30 PM »
it also claims, if you'd read it, that there's no biblical reason to believe that she stayed celibate. there's no logical reason for it either. They're married, they're in love, they're not under any form of compulsion not to. What reason, logical or biblical can you give that indicates that Mary and Joseph would never have engaged in sexual relations?
There is none.  To be fair, the fact that I have 2 kids is not proof that I've had sex with my wife.  I could be celibate and she could just be banging someone on the side.....

This is true. but I don't quite think you're the sort to believe your wife was impregnated twice by God. Also, I think it would bring up commitment issuez if your wife had two kids and you were celibate. Presumedly Joseph's worries were alleviated by the angels.
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Offline Eral

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #185 on: December 12, 2005, 03:35:12 AM »
I love an illogical argument as much as anyone, but I have to say I have my concerns about this one. A man who claims to be a lapsed Catholic is stating his firm belief that Mary was a virgin all her life, but doesn't know what I mean when I talk about the Marian tradition.(It's the story of Mary -that she was pure, a virgin, said yessireebob to God and all that) And who keeps saying a whole lot of stuff that is just plain trolling.
FYI Joe: I learned about Paul and his battle for control of the Corinthian? Carthaginian? church is theology classes.(I called them God classes.)  When I was studying to be a teacher in Catholic schools. I can't reference the text for you as I don't remember anymore. All I can say is the tutor was a man of great integrity, learning and compassion and I'm pretty sure he wasn't lying. I was being encouraged to think and make informed choices. you know, being eddicated.

Evaine, as to the question of female altar servers, our Cardinal George Pell, recently sent a letter to all the bishops and priests stating that girls were no longer to act as altar servers. Obviously it only applies to this country unless he becomes the pope. (God forbid.) He also instructed all parish priests that they could no longer deviate in any way from the prescribed script of the Mass. He is famous for denying communion bread to a woman because she is the mother of a practising homosexual. Not a good look, but he doesn't care.
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Offline Evaine Dian

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #186 on: December 12, 2005, 03:47:36 AM »
Ah, ok, I assumed you meant a certain case, but wasn't sure. Thanks for your explanation.
"Show me how you do that trick! The one that makes me scream", she said,
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I'll run away with you, I'll run away with you..."

Offline Borsook

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #187 on: December 12, 2005, 04:22:16 AM »
Thog like Eral posts.
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Offline Drew

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #188 on: December 12, 2005, 08:33:51 AM »
it also claims, if you'd read it, that there's no biblical reason to believe that she stayed celibate. there's no logical reason for it either. They're married, they're in love, they're not under any form of compulsion not to. What reason, logical or biblical can you give that indicates that Mary and Joseph would never have engaged in sexual relations?
There is none.  To be fair, the fact that I have 2 kids is not proof that I've had sex with my wife.  I could be celibate and she could just be banging someone on the side.....

This is true. but I don't quite think you're the sort to believe your wife was impregnated twice by God. Also, I think it would bring up commitment issuez if your wife had two kids and you were celibate. Presumedly Joseph's worries were alleviated by the angels.
Yep.  But maybe that's just how I roll......
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Offline CoM_Solaufein

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #189 on: December 12, 2005, 08:37:01 AM »
Being an Atheist this discussion has little meaning for me, other than a laugh seeing how everyone takes it so seriously.

Offline Sorrow

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #190 on: December 12, 2005, 08:56:09 AM »
     And what are the tenets of your faith ?

They are many and unknown to unbelievers.
Siblinghood
Unity
Peace

One Vision!
One Purpose!

-----------------------------

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Offline notasophist

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #191 on: December 12, 2005, 01:23:10 PM »
And why does it bother anyone?

Because it is in bad form. It offends me philosophically.

That's it for me in this thread.

Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Church closed for Christmas
« Reply #192 on: December 12, 2005, 05:02:53 PM »
it also claims, if you'd read it, that there's no biblical reason to believe that she stayed celibate. there's no logical reason for it either. They're married, they're in love, they're not under any form of compulsion not to. What reason, logical or biblical can you give that indicates that Mary and Joseph would never have engaged in sexual relations?
There is none.  To be fair, the fact that I have 2 kids is not proof that I've had sex with my wife.  I could be celibate and she could just be banging someone on the side.....

This is true. but I don't quite think you're the sort to believe your wife was impregnated twice by God. Also, I think it would bring up commitment issuez if your wife had two kids and you were celibate. Presumedly Joseph's worries were alleviated by the angels.
Yep.  But maybe that's just how I roll......
Perhaps. I guess only you really know
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