We will not delete your questions and comments about mod compatibility!

[ronin]

so..... on to more friendly and useful topics, is anyone going to answer my question here:  http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php/topic,17153.msg272695.html#msg272695

 

ronin

[Sikret]

2- Messages should require approval before being sent and seen by everyone. Deleting a bad post after being seen is not a good option. Bad posts should not be allowed to be seen at all.

This sounds very unfeasable to me. Are you suggesting that each and every post should be read by a mod before appearing on a forum???

I agree that in forums with huge traffic of posts, this policy is not easily feasible. I said that it is one of my criteria for an "ideal" forum, but I agree that it is not easy. "Practical" and "ideal" do not always coincide.

Nonetheless, I believe that if a Forum has enough number of moderators who are willing to work hard and to take their positions seriously, it is not completely unfeasible and impractical.

[irenicus]

this is one craazzzzzzy convo, *giggles*

[Shrek]

Only at Shut Hole Studios do you get great service.

Longer Road? What is that? Another piece of shit excreted put from SHS?

[irenicus]

Only at Shut Hole Studios do you get great service.

Longer Road? What is that? Another piece of shit excreted put from SHS?

-raises eyebrow- not very polite, longer-road allows you to have jon irenicus in your team in TOB, he works for you to redeam himself and get a new soul, you can choose you give him another bhaalspawns or convince him to take one the gods offer him (a mortal soul) it is a good mod with very intresting dialogs

[Exodus]

Only at Shut Hole Studios do you get great service.

Longer Road? What is that? Another piece of shit excreted put from SHS?

Does this mean I can be really immature and nick your skipping rope then laugh whilst you cry?  Or tell you your hair looks bad?

I mean really, you can do better then that, can't you?  We've been accused of worse things in a far more elegant manner then this.

[jcompton]

Only at Shut Hole Studios do you get great service.

Psst, barely-pseudonymous-person: SMF's IP tracking is pretty good, we see you, please knock it off.

[jcompton]

I agree on that point also, but I also think that such issues can be resolved by other means than posting on a different forum.  Most, not all, people who visit here also visit the other forums (like me), and complaining here about there presents a bad impression for those same "new" people.  IMHO, and this is only my opinion, I dont think its a professional way to solve problems.

I am not bitchin at no one here, just stating my opinion.

Since you've gone to such lengths to clarify that it's your opinion, would you mind expanding upon it and pointing out what, in your opinion, is the proper way to deal with people who post apparently unfounded claims of mod incompatibility (not to mention a rather blanket accusation about the motivations of other modders), then delete rationally and calmly phrased challenges to those unfounded claims?

I am fascinated by the generally strong outpouring of people who offer that they know the right way to handle these situations in complex manners, when all I'm advocating is that people should stop deleting posts, which would seem to me to be a very simple, effective, and straightforward solution.

[icelus]

The post directly above was deleted by yours truly. 

[jcompton]

Ahhh, post deletion humor.

Anyway, if the people who run the largest IE modding board can't be counted on to be sensible, I guess the best I can do is simply offer everyone safe haven to discuss whatever mods they like with reasonable certainty that their discussions and arguments won't be grossly interfered with.

This includes those Studios mods for which open discussion is explicitly prohibited on their board, of course.

[Eral]

I guess maybe the best thing to do might still be to keep the arguments away from us, not least because it stops NiGHTMARE questioning the gender of passers by, which is always bad for business.

We should be scrupulously fair and exact in our grammar here. He doesn't question your gender, he decides what it is and holds firmly to that belief. Despite being wrong.
And though it seems that jc is having a little gloat that he, the original Evil Overlord, runs an open forum where people get to say what they think, even people who are rude and argumentative and just picking a fight, well, we could probably overlook it. Because it is pretty funny.

[Sikret]

This is perhaps an example of poor moderating policies:

http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php/topic,20933.0.html

The interesting point is that none of the two writers were even registered members. They were, however, allowed to ridicule my mod. The second one did so quite explicitly. Yet, moderators didn't show any reaction. Not that such posts can harm me in the least, but they can lower the general prestige and quality of this site.

The admirable thing, however, was that none of the registered members took those two people seriously. This shows that despite the poor moderation, this Forum has nice members.

[jcompton]

They were, however, allowed to ridicule my mod.

Yes, they were (although the first poster claims that is not his intent, but I'll grant you your claim for the sake of discussion.) People are, in fact, allowed and entitled to ridicule mods.

I've long kicked around the concept for a Modding Bill Of Rights. It goes something like this.

Rule I: Everybody has the right to make mods.
Rule Ia: Everybody has the right to make bad mods.

Rule II: Everybody has the right to play, enjoy, and discuss mods.
Rule IIa: Everybody has the right to play, enjoy, and discuss bad mods.

Yet, moderators didn't show any reaction.

Which was the correct action for them to take.

Not that such posts can harm me in the least, but they can lower the general prestige and quality of this site.

The pursuit of "prestige and quality" is generally hindered by insisting that people only say "More please!"

[jester]

This is perhaps an example of poor moderating policies:

I disagree. I think that guest posting is a virtue in itself. Those who abuse it disqualify their statements, but not the idea behind it.
While I agree that one might be offended for a second or two by an obnoxious post, I don't think any modders or players are influenced by statements such as 'OMG you suck so much signed your mother' and the like. Someone on the other hand who makes a poignant statement after a prolonged argument which, no doubt, resonates with the audience, if it holds a little bit of truth despite being offensively worded, should have a right to say it. I don't think people are swayed by gibberish that easily and everything that really resonates with you should make you think about some validity that statement may have regardless of its form. I think if you read through a thread you get a good impression who says what, when and why so the only real harm you can do to the process is deleting/altering posts in an (ongoing) discussion and many of them do for quite a while. Am I right Imoen?

It goes without saying that I prefer icelus' way of pointing his finger at things. Offences just don't really work as well as satire.

[Sikret]

People are, in fact, allowed and entitled to ridicule mods.

One of the main duties of a moderator is to prevent people from ridiculing/insulting each other. So, if you say that ridiculing is allowed here, you just confirm my point that this site has a poor moderating policy.

Rule IIa: Everybody has the right to play, enjoy, and discuss bad mods.

Discussing and ridculing/insulting are not the same.

The pursuit of "prestige and quality" is generally hindered by insisting that people only say "More please!"

Yes, more quality is always called for and is not easily attainable, but this is no excuse for forgetting the pursuit of it.

[Borsook]

People are, in fact, allowed and entitled to ridicule mods.

One of the main duties of a moderator is to prevent people from ridiculing/insulting each other. So, if you say that ridiculing is allowed here, you just confirm my point that this site has a poor moderating policy.

Rule IIa: Everybody has the right to play, enjoy, and discuss bad mods.

Discussing and ridculing/insulting are not the same.

The pursuit of "prestige and quality" is generally hindered by insisting that people only say "More please!"

Yes, more quality is always called for and is not easily attainable, but this is no excuse for forgetting the pursuit of it.

I think You're being oversensitive Sikret. In the thread You quoted the only thing that happend was a person implying that your mod is "ridicously unbalanced". Regardless whether you (or we) agree or not this is an opinion and I fail to see the basis on which you put your claim that it should not be allowed. Personally I spend 90% of my "forum time" here because it's one of the rare places where freedom of speach is properly understood. And notice that while PPG mods are not "policing" the forums like certain others for some reason we don't get flame wars here (just heated arguments at times), so it seems to work. BTW a question on the margin (not a malicious one, just wondering at the origin of your aproach) - if someone ridicules you in RL do you call the police or deal with it using your own capacity to speak (note that I do not mean repaying in the same coin here)?

EDIT> added missing word - "regardless"
EDIT2> and missing "here"... bloody brain... gotta replace it ASAP

[Pigeon]

One of the main duties of a moderator is to prevent people from ridiculing/insulting each other.

Actually, moderators are there to enforce rules, not to make sure no one's feelings get hurt- unless "no talking smack" happens to be a rule.

[Sikret]

if someone ridicules you in RL do you call the police?

Very well, let's assume that someone has written and published an insulting/ridiculing article about me and has published it in a newspaper. Your question is whether I will sue him or not.

Well, first and foremost, it depends on the content of his article. If it is not really harmful, then, no! I will not sue him. But I will send a note to the editorial staff of the newspaper, informing them that they have a very poor editorial policy. This is what I did here too. Afterwards, I will naturally expect the editor of the newspaper to send me a reply, apologizing and explaining that what had happened was a mistake and would not be repeated. (Rather than saying "people are allowed and entitled to ridicule others in our newspaper"!)

[Borsook]

if someone ridicules you in RL do you call the police?

Very well, let's assume that someone has written and published an insulting/ridiculing article about me and has published it in a newspaper. Your question is whether I will sue him or not.

Well, first and foremost, it depends on the content of his article. If it is not really harmful, then, no! I will not sue him. But I will send a note to the editorial staff of the newspaper, informing them that they have a very poor editorial policy. This is what I did here too. Afterwards, I will naturally expect the editor of the newspaper to send me a reply, apologizing and explaining that what had happened was a mistake and would not be repeated. (Rather than saying "people are allowed and entitled to ridicule others in our newspaper"!)

Oh, well here we differ. I'd probably wouldn't mind. And if I did I'd publish a "counter" article. I'd somehow find find taking legal action beneath me, as it would mean: a) my ego grew too big. b)I'm unable to solve the matter without outside intervention. Just my opinion. BTW I still can't see how come that case did not fall under your claim

If it is not really harmful, then, no!

. What exactly is the harm in saying your mod is "ridicously overbalanced"? Are you saying that if I play a mod that makes having a hangover feel like a paradise I cannot state it?

[jester]

I didn't see anything in the riskbreaker thread that is absolutely terrible. So you really are not a good example of people who have to defend themselves against personal attacks IMO. Connecting RL physics and magic is always tricky and might result in some bickering, but I fail to see the big insult here.

I doubt your approach to journailsm does really work, but then again I have never been insulted in one either. I guess you end up in court and get your apology as part of the settlement.

Thank god, posts are not edited beforehand. What kind of forum would it be, if I had to get someone's approval to post my opinion? Compliance to implicit or tacit rules is not the same as budging to censorship.

[Eral]

Newspaper editors don't send you a letter apologising unless they lose the lawsuit. They publish a line in the paper which states why they think they were right to publish the content they did. But this is a forum. It exists so people can express their POV. SOmetimes you will misunderstand others. Sometimes they will misunderstand you. I have a friend who never posts in any forum because he so dislikes the potential for conflict. That's one way of avoiding problems.

I guess we would like everyone to always be polite. But that doesn't always happen. There's a difference between comments that are offensive to you personally, and comments that are offensive in general. I think moderators should really only have to act on the latter - seeing as how they have a RL which also places demands on them. They're moderators, not NetNannies.  If someone posts something you do find personally offensive, you discuss the matter with the posters in question. Someone slags off your mod? Discuss your reasons for making it. In the end it's your opinion vs theirs. And if you are still not happy, you get to cherish an undying grudge against them, despising everything they say forever. Really, it's a very workable system.

[Borsook]

Newspaper editors don't send you a letter apologising unless they lose the lawsuit. They publish a line in the paper which states why they think they were right to publish the content they did. But this is a forum. It exists so people can express their POV. SOmetimes you will misunderstand others. Sometimes they will misunderstand you. I have a friend who never posts in any forum because he so dislikes the potential for conflict. That's one way of avoiding problems.

I guess we would like everyone to always be polite. But that doesn't always happen. There's a difference between comments that are offensive to you personally, and comments that are offensive in general. I think moderators should really only have to act on the latter - seeing as how they have a RL which also places demands on them. They're moderators, not NetNannies.  If someone posts something you do find personally offensive, you discuss the matter with the posters in question. Someone slags off your mod? Discuss your reasons for making it. In the end it's your opinion vs theirs. And if you are still not happy, you get to cherish an undying grudge against them, despising everything they say forever. Really, it's a very workable system.

Very well said. I'm very happy that you're still of this opinion Eral even after this silly "discussion" with You-Know-Who (and no, I don't mean lord Voldemort here )

[jester]

And if you are still not happy, you get to cherish an undying grudge against them, despising everything they say forever. Really, it's a very workable system.

[Eral]

Thank you Borsook. I would like to sit here and pretend to everyone that I have an exceptionally noble and rational nature, however, jester has already identified the real reason for my graciousness - winning isn't everything, grudges can be satisfying too.

[Sikret]

What exactly is the harm in saying your mod is "ridicously overbalanced"?

No harm! I never said that it caused harm. I rather said the opposite. I said a conditional sentence: if it doesn't do harm (which is the case here) I will only send a note to the editorial informing them of their poor policy.

In my first post on this subject I also emphasized that such posts can't harm me in the least, but they will harm the prestige and quality of the site. So, I don't understand how you thought that I meant that the posts had harmed me. I just wanted to give an example of a bad moderating policy. It didn't mean that I was hurt or harmed.

The interesting point, however, is that unlike you, Jcompton agreed that the posts were ridiculing but added that people are allowed and entitled to ridicule here in PP!! This was much sadder than the ridiculing posts themselves.