Author Topic: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?  (Read 8590 times)

Offline Lu

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2005, 12:31:11 PM »
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That was my thought, too, that all involved paladins should fall. Including the dead
   Why would the dead fall? Or do you mean those slain in this battle, not all who are InPartyAllowDead()?

Offline jastey

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2005, 12:52:25 PM »
Sorry, I meant the dead paladins, the ones from the Order that attack and are killled in the battle. If a dead paladin is "present" in the group when the fight takes place he would not fall, as he obviously didn't take part in the fight.

But jester has a point. If the PC gets attacked, doesn't he have to defend himself and his group members? Does the situation then still count the way I stated in my first post?

Offline fcm

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2005, 02:42:56 PM »
As for the sitation still counting if Jester's idea applies -- I'd say no. And then a lot of the Firkraag quest is pointless, because your paladin doesn't try to regain his/her own honor, but just do another rescue mission. Or perhaps try to avenge the death of the paladins that attacked you in the first place. Not that dragon-fighting isn't inherently cool . . . it would just be nice to have a different motive every once in a while, especially one that cuts directly at the foundation of what it is to be a paladin. You know, I like the quest as it is  -- but I don't think the monsters should drop human bodies immediatley. That would be reason to stop and do a "Hey! What the hell is happening here?" They should drop monster bodies untill they're all slain, and then change into knights.

But I don't know how feasable of a propisition that is.
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Offline Rabain

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2005, 04:22:37 PM »
Introducing a forced paladin fall in this encounter goes against the majority of similar encounters in the game.  If a paladin falls it is because the Player has made a choice that goes against the fundamental ideal of a paladin.  If you force a fall here you are taking away the players ability to make a decision as to his actions, he has no choice but to fall simply because he visited this area.

I am all for Atonement for killing an innocent but not a forced fall in this instance.  At the very least give the player a choice as to his actions.  Screw Garren Windspear if you have to, I'd prefer this to forcing a choice down the players throat.
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Offline Lu

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2005, 06:35:10 PM »
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If you force a fall here you are taking away the players ability to make a decision as to his actions, he has no choice but to fall simply because he visited this area
   It's not totally new to the game, is it? As you enter Spellhold, you eventually lose your soul simply because you visited this area

Offline Lu

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2005, 07:11:42 PM »
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But jester has a point. If the PC gets attacked, doesn't he have to defend himself and his group members? Does the situation then still count the way I stated in my first post?
   Consider boys fighting in the streets. Then their parents come, and stop the battle, and all involved are taken home (and sometimes innocents, too). At home, parents aren't always eager to figure out who started the fight. As a rule, 'paladins' of both parties are punished equally

Offline fcm

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2005, 02:07:51 AM »
Here's the thing, when boys fight in the street -- someone did start it. They're generally not tricked into punching one another's eyes out becasuse they fear they're in mortal danger. In the case of the paladins, the fight was instigated by Firkraag, who used his fantastic-dragon-magic to create an illusion that was strong enough to fool both parties into believing that they were in a situation where they were to be killed.

I don't know what sort of god abandons his followers for being hopelessly duped.
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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2005, 02:39:04 AM »
I don't know what sort of god abandons his followers for being hopelessly duped.
In my opinion the paladin has to take consequences as to how it was possible he was so bad tricked. AFAIK the rules go that a paladin falls if he kills an innocent. The fact that he was tricked makes it possible for him to regain paladinhood, though.
 
Although it was me who started the thread I know think that the player doesn't really have a choice than to defend himself. Well, maybe one of the reply options that state a direct counter attack would have to be treated different, but all in all the PC doesn't have a chance to talk to the "monsters". I do not agree that falling should only come after a decision of the player / PC. If you know it's a decision you will fall without the chance to regain paladinhood, because then you acted by your will. The fact in this encounter is that both parties think they know what's going on, and act according to their best knowledge. I agree that a "forced" falling if going to the Windspeer Hills would suck in terms of roleplaying BGII, but more or less that's what is implemented in BGII already: You have to kill the paladins, and you have to get Garren's help to regain your honour in front of the Order. Adding a falling would only tighten the applied rules. If the rules say the PC paladin should fall, that is. In this scene it could be said that the ones starting the attack have to bear the consequences, which would be the paladins of the order.

-jastey

fcm: For bodies changing to monsters only after all of them are dead: That's the way it is implemented in BGII.

Offline fcm

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2005, 01:54:18 PM »
Oh, it is? Hahaha. I guess I always killed them too fast to notice. I usually don't go to the Windspear Hills until I think my PC can survive Firkraag.

But wouldn't you say that there is a difference between accidentally killing an innocent, intentionally killing an innocent, and killing someone who was attacking you who you thought was a reasonable threat? There just has to be degrees of "innocence," here. It's not like the Radiant Heart knights were cowering 9-year-old girls or plump, rosy-cheeked nuns with puppies.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2005, 01:56:09 PM »
There is a difference - if you intentionally kill an innocent, you fall forever.  If you accidentally kill an innocent (or are forced to do it, f.ex you're under the influence of a charm spell), you fall but can redeem yourself.
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Offline fcm

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2005, 02:01:43 PM »
Yes, but is someone still an innocent if they attack you? That's what I'm getting at. If someone attacks you with intention of killing you and is a credible threat, I really don't see how they can be considered innocent any more -- regardless of who they are. After all, it's the Radiant Heart knights who aren't willing to talk. I can see how it would be immoral to kill, say, Aerie when she's disguised as an ogre -- but not so much Ajantis & Co.

I don't know. I feel like my argument really isn't on-track with the original topic, anyway . . . somewhere along the line I ran the ship aground. (YARRrrr!)
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Offline jastey

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2005, 02:06:43 PM »
I guess I always killed them too fast to notice.
For me it is the Garren dialogue that pops up directly after I killed the last "monster", so the first time I played I didn't know what the man was talking about...

I don't know. I feel like my argument really isn't on-track with the original topic, anyway . . . somewhere along the line I ran the ship aground. (YARRrrr!)
It happened to me some posts back, too, and I started the topic...

I think the point why the PC isn't falling after the fight is the circumstance that the paladins of the Order were the ones who did the attacking. That would mean they would have died fallen paladins. Ajantis was among them and I am Ajantis fan so that's really sad...  :(
« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 02:08:41 PM by jastey »

Offline fcm

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2005, 02:12:59 PM »
What makes me sad is how tormented their dialoge seems. Even though it's only a line, they seem to really have given up on trying to discern what was and was not Firkraag's illusions. You'd think he had them killing children or something. At the very least, they do get avenged.
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Offline Rabain

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2005, 03:59:08 PM »
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If you force a fall here you are taking away the players ability to make a decision as to his actions, he has no choice but to fall simply because he visited this area
   It's not totally new to the game, is it? As you enter Spellhold, you eventually lose your soul simply because you visited this area
Well that is part of the main storyline and really has nothing to do with the class of character you are playing.  By forcing a paladin to fall you remove all his abilities, it has a bit more of a gameplay effect than the losing of your soul does.  Also, as the PC your soul is forcibly removed by Irenicus, as a paladin you should be able to choose if you commit good or evil and thus falling would be a consequence of your actions, here falling is a consequence of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and has nothing to do with a choice your paladin would make.

How about this scenario:  You enter Windspear, you see some ogres etc battling each other.  When they see you they attack, a few are killed, both by your party and by each other.  When the final attacker falls, Ajantis initiates dialog with the PC "What has happened, you are not the monster I fought but moments ago!", you explain to Ajantis what you saw and he goes on about coming to Windspear at the request of Garren (that will give you a reason to talk to Garren).  Ajantis asks you to take him to the Order (he is near death), you do and he gets healed.  Then they ask you to avenge the deaths of the other knights/paladins by finding out what is causing the problems in Windspear.  You visit Garren and he explains about Firkraag and off you go.  If you talk to Garren before leaving Windspear then you have another thing to tell the Order when you take Ajantis back.
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