Author Topic: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?  (Read 7767 times)

Offline jastey

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PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« on: November 27, 2005, 07:53:58 AM »
Hi, sorry if this might be already dealed with, but as far as I uderstood from the point of D&D rules the PC should fall after he killed the paladins in the Windspeer hills. Because of the illusion he would be able to regain his paladinhood after killing Firkraag, as his wholy mission to seek revenge for the dead. Actually all involved paladins should fall, imho.

Implementing this would lead to a change in the Garren/ Firkraag quest, the paladin / Order of the Radiant Heart quest to gain the powerful sword which name I forgot, as well as leave the PC without his paladin abilities for a while and might not be appreciated by everyone.

But thinking about this topic for a while now to me the fact that BGII ignores this seems like a big flaw from roleplaying point of view.

What do you think about this idea, and would the falling after the fight and the rehabilitation after killing Firkraag be scope of this mod?

Offline Lu

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2005, 11:54:59 AM »
   I definitely like the idea. Do you intend to implement it in a mod?
 P.S. Wouldn't Mod Discussion and Announcements be a better place for this thread?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2005, 11:57:03 AM by Lu »

Offline jester

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2005, 11:58:58 AM »
Do you fall if you act with good intentions and no means to dispel the illusions (What does detect evil give you?)?

I think that your god would judge you by what you knew and what you were able to know and thus the premises youur actions were based on. They attack you without an option to negotiate. Surely every god grants his paladin the option to defend himself.

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Offline Rabain

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2005, 12:26:09 PM »
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Surely every god grants his paladin the option to defend himself.

That would be my take on it. The paladin's god knows that he didn't kill innocents on purpose.  It was a result of Firkraags deception.

Also on a related note if evil knew that paladins would fall even if they are tricked into killing an innocent surely paladins wouldn't last very long?  Either they would become afraid of every encounter, doubting if it was a deception or not,  or they would fall as a result of a deception by a greater evil.  Evil wouldn't even need to confront the paladin directly, all it would have to do is deceive a weak innocent into attacking the paladin, paladin falls...evil takes over the world.
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Offline jastey

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2005, 12:59:39 PM »
If a mod wants to move this thread please go ahead but I meant the question in connection to the virtue mod.

There is truth in what you posted but nevertheless the paladin killed an innocent. A paladin should be able to see the truth, and if he doesn't he has to bear the concequences. The fault not being his is taken into account by the possibility to gain back his paladinhood by a holy mission of some sort.

If someone firm with the D&D rules could commend on this please, but from discussions with friends that is what I understood should happen.


Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2005, 01:49:48 PM »
I'm afraid you usually need an argument other than "that's what happens in D&D" if you want to convince Sim of anything :P.
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Offline jastey

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2005, 02:12:12 PM »
I am not trying to convince anyone, but I am really intersted in your opinion on this.

Offline Lu

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2005, 05:04:56 PM »
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I'm afraid you usually need an argument other than "that's what happens in D&D" if you want to convince Sim of anything
   What has it to do with Sim?

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2005, 05:33:52 PM »
What has it to do with Sim?

The thread is in the Virtue forum, so I am guessing this suggestion is in regards to that mod.  Since Virtue is a SimDingo (TM) mod, it has quite a lot to do with him, I would say :P.

I personally think the PC should fall if he kills the paladins, *BUT* only if extra options for dealing with the situation in a more peaceful manner are added (e.g. persuade them to use their ability to Detect Evil).
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Offline Lu

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2005, 06:37:08 PM »
Quote
The thread is in the Virtue forum, so I am guessing this suggestion is in regards to that mod.  Since Virtue is a SimDingo (TM) mod, it has quite a lot to do with him, I would say
   I know that Virtue is SimDingo's mod, I just don't understand why Jastey's idea is connected to Virtue

Offline jastey

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2005, 12:31:45 AM »
Lu: Virtue deals about the behaviour of the PC and the consequences, for paladins the falling for evil deeds, so I thought it could fit here.

NiGHTMARE: That's an interesting thought, as it would change the Garren quest significantly. Instead of being the PC saviour, he would be degraded to another "help me, my child got abducted" help seeker, that's why I'd rather not change the Windspeer hills scene in that way. Plus I think it is believable that the illusion of the red dragon is too mighty to be detected by an mere detection spell. Give me the possibility for Garren to help the PC in a different way and I'll happily implement the "detect the illusion at Windspeer" possibility. Although apart from that I think your suggestion makes a lot of sense, actually.

Offline Lu

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2005, 05:42:57 AM »
Quote
Virtue deals about the behaviour of the PC and the consequences, for paladins the falling for evil deeds
   So does the original game, though not exactly in the same manner. You may see your concept as part of Virtue mod, of course, but you've never stated it explicitly

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2005, 06:02:51 AM »
NiGHTMARE: That's an interesting thought, as it would change the Garren quest significantly. Instead of being the PC saviour, he would be degraded to another "help me, my child got abducted" help seeker, that's why I'd rather not change the Windspeer hills scene in that way. Plus I think it is believable that the illusion of the red dragon is too mighty to be detected by an mere detection spell. Give me the possibility for Garren to help the PC in a different way and I'll happily implement the "detect the illusion at Windspeer" possibility. Although apart from that I think your suggestion makes a lot of sense, actually.

Of course, it doesn't neccessarily actually have to work, but I'd imagine a paladin's god would look more favourably upon him if he did as much as he possibly could to resolve the situation in a non-violent manner, rather than resorting to weapons almost straight away.

To explore my suggestion further, a character with high wisdom should be able to recognize that these guys are paladins and suggest using their ability to detect evil.  A character with high charisma (which of course all paladin PCs would qualify for) should be able to make the knights rethink the situation, and decide to use detect evil themselves.
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Offline ronin

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2005, 06:44:23 AM »
NiGHTMARE: That's an interesting thought, as it would change the Garren quest significantly. Instead of being the PC saviour, he would be degraded to another "help me, my child got abducted" help seeker, that's why I'd rather not change the Windspeer hills scene in that way. Plus I think it is believable that the illusion of the red dragon is too mighty to be detected by an mere detection spell. Give me the possibility for Garren to help the PC in a different way and I'll happily implement the "detect the illusion at Windspeer" possibility. Although apart from that I think your suggestion makes a lot of sense, actually.

Of course, it doesn't neccessarily actually have to work, but I'd imagine a paladin's god would look more favourably upon him if he did as much as he possibly could to resolve the situation in a non-violent manner, rather than resorting to weapons almost straight away.

To explore my suggestion further, a character with high wisdom should be able to recognize that these guys are paladins and suggest using their ability to detect evil.  A character with high charisma (which of course all paladin PCs would qualify for) should be able to make the knights rethink the situation, and decide to use detect evil themselves.


Why would they do that though?  Every other encounter with "monsters" is not handled that way.  If there are monsters then the party attacks.  What I understand here is that not only this encounter but every encounter would have the paladin detecting evil and trying to find a peaceful way out of the situation.  The only reason I see for this encounter to be different is because we've all played the game a million times and know that the monsters are paladins in an illusion.  If you have never played before you would never know that and would attack right away upon seeing the monsters.

Just my 2 cents worth

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2005, 06:47:44 AM »
  If you have never played before you would never know that and would attack right away upon seeing the monsters.
Yes and no: I've never be addressed as "monsters" from monsters before, and BGII already gives reply options like "Wait, can't we talk about this", so even if played the first time you can notice that this is a weird situation.

Offline ronin

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2005, 06:50:09 AM »
good point, thats the only thing that makes this encounter different.

***goes to ponder more on it****


ronin

Offline Kulyok

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2005, 06:58:54 AM »
The point is, does the paladin has an opportunity to fall as a result, or is he forced to fall as a result, whatever he does?

The second opportunity is rather unpleasant from the roleplaying perspective. If a paladin tries to do good as far as the game allows him, but falls anyway, I consider this an unfortunate design decision.

The first opportunity is more interesting, but then the quest has to be re-written entirely, to include the possibility of the knights collaborating with you, to introduce another motive to confront Firkraag, to determine Garren's new role in this quest in all cases, etc, etc. A lot of work, and I am not sure it will be worth it in the end.

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2005, 07:22:07 AM »
It could at least be made so the knights actually can be persuaded to/decide to detect evil, even if it returns a false result for good and neutral characters.
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Offline jester

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2005, 11:01:42 AM »
If I am not a paladin, but Keldorn is with me. Shouldn't he fall after I killed the 'monsters'?

'Wait can we talk about this?' is hardly a giveaway for paladins in disguise as you can also negotiate with the 'monsters' in the Umar Hills. Actually that should be what a paladin does first. Dirty Harry is hardly LG.
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Offline Lu

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2005, 08:11:29 AM »
   Since my first question here remains unanswered, I have another one. If I decided to implement paladins falling in WH in a mod, would it be inappropriate to do that without Jastey's permission/agreement? It surely isn't against the law, but I wouldn't like to be thought a thief or plagiarist

Offline jastey

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2005, 11:09:30 AM »
Lu: If you'd implement it in a mod it could be possible I would be most grateful, because then I don't have to do it myself. I don't own this idea, I might be the first who stated it, maybe.
Which first question didn't get answered? I thought I answered your question why I posted this inquiry here into virtue.

If I am not a paladin, but Keldorn is with me. Shouldn't he fall after I killed the 'monsters'?

'Wait can we talk about this?' is hardly a giveaway for paladins in disguise as you can also negotiate with the 'monsters' in the Umar Hills. Actually that should be what a paladin does first. Dirty Harry is hardly LG.
That was my thought, too, that all involved paladins should fall. Including the dead.

I don't understand your second remark. What does "Dirty Harry" refer to?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 11:11:39 AM by jastey »

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Offline Lu

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2005, 11:57:32 AM »
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Which first question didn't get answered? I thought I answered your question why I posted this inquiry here into virtue
   There were two questions in my first post actually, "Do you intend to implement it in a mod?" being the first

Quote
Lu: If you'd implement it in a mod it could be possible I would be most grateful, because then I don't have to do it myself
   Why do you not want to do it yourself, if I may ask?
   Anyway, though I definitely like the idea, I need some time to consider and decide

Offline jester

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2005, 12:11:57 PM »
@That was my thought, too, that all involved paladins should fall. Including the dead.

So if I let them strike first, my paladin is out of trouble as they fall immediately after they chunked Aerie. :D After that they are dead meat and my paladin will strike down upon them with great vengeance and furious anger....and rightfully so.
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Offline jastey

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Re: PC paladin falling after Windspeer encounter?
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2005, 12:20:24 PM »
Problem solved.

Lu: I have very limited spare time, and some running projects already, so I am not very fond of starting a new one. It might be I will use this idea in another mod, though.

 

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