Author Topic: A silver dragon's blood  (Read 18342 times)

Offline Elfen Lied

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2006, 07:43:21 PM »
so whats the deal, is killing the dragon the only way at this point to get the silver dragon's blood?

and i know this is going to sound noob as, but where is the guy you talk to, to get the human skin+5, umar hills somehwere?
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Offline eleazar

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2006, 09:34:57 AM »
I think Bioware makes it pretty clear in the quests in volving the tanner and the human skin armor that it is very Evil.  I've only played up to chapter 5 so far, but other than Irenicus, the Tanner strikes me as the most unambiguously evil character, engaged in a clearly evil project.  I make this evaluation not based on my ethics or morality, but based on what the game seems to be saying.  A mod that contradicts all that, and makes human-flesh-wearing OK, wouldn't mesh well with the game.  TormentedDragon makes a good point that postmodern morals/ethics (according to many definitions essentially the same thing) aren't really relevant in Baldur's Gate.

I'm not well versed in the FR pantheon, but it seems the priests of Lathlander or Illmater could be modded to have some ritual to perform to neutralize the evil of the armor, and put (the parts of) these bodies to rest.  The PC would gain a little XP and the quest would be closed.

Offline Drew

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2006, 04:16:11 PM »
So wearing the skin of humans that were killed by ghouls is OK (ghoul skin armor), but wearing the skin of humans that were killed by a skin dancer is not?   By the way, BG2, and D&D in general, is based almost entirely on post-modern ethics.  D&D already incorporates post modern ideas on gender equality, religious tolerance (the church of Lathander isn't in the habit of butchering, say, martyrs of Ilmater), and tolerance of one's sexual orientation.  In addition to that, it incorporates modern ideas on when, how, and with whom you can and can't have sex.  Let us not forget that at one point in our history (a period from which much of D&D's cosmology was derived) it was OK for men to have sex with little boys and for 30 year old men to marry 12 year old girls.  Interestingly enough, anywhere that old school ideas of morality were considered offensive, they were removed in D&D.  D&D was built on our modern ideas of morality and ethics.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2006, 04:27:41 PM by Drew »
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Offline Bex

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2006, 12:33:47 AM »
I'm not well versed in the FR pantheon, but it seems the priests of Lathlander or Illmater could be modded to have some ritual to perform to neutralize the evil of the armor, and put (the parts of) these bodies to rest.  The PC would gain a little XP and the quest would be closed.

I kinda like this idea, not for the XP but because it would allow a good PC to do something with those skins, far more satisfying than throwing them away or selling them (ew).

I confess I always take Montaron's body to the graveyard to give him something approximating a decent burial too.
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Offline eleazar

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2006, 08:24:13 AM »
I'm not well versed in the FR pantheon, but it seems the priests of Lathlander or Illmater could be modded to have some ritual to perform to neutralize the evil of the armor, and put (the parts of) these bodies to rest.  The PC would gain a little XP and the quest would be closed.

I kinda like this idea, not for the XP but because it would allow a good PC to do something with those skins, far more satisfying than throwing them away or selling them (ew).

Exactly, it doesn't make role-playing sense for a player of one alignment to sell weapons on the open market that give special benefits to members of the opposite alignment.  Why would a paladin drop off the Dagger-of-snuffing-out-innocent-life at the local merchants? Sticking them in a barrel or chest isn't much of a solution either. I played an Adam Miller mod for NWN where you could offer any weapons and armor of an opposite alignment at an altar.  I think it gave you a temporary buffing.  It made a lot of sense to me.  And it was more fun.

Drew, i don't deny that there's a lot of modern ideology in D&D, but it's also quite distict.  The nearly tangible existence of good and evil, and the demonstrable presense of gods create a moral/ethical cosmos quite different from post-modern or modern thought.  It also seems to me that there are loopholes and inconsistencies in the D&D cosmos. Minor details (ghoul skin armor) don't always mesh with the big picture.

Note: my knowledge of D&D is based almost entirely on BG2 and NWN.  I'm sure it's not the deepest version, but the BG2 perspective is really what's relevant here.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 08:28:05 AM by eleazar »

Offline Drew

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2006, 05:16:47 PM »
If simply wearing the skins of humans is evil even though you played no part whatsoever in the deaths of the humans, then wearing the ghoul skin armor would be just as evil.
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Offline CORVIS TERRIBLE MOUNTAIN GOD

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2006, 09:29:21 PM »
Humans are not ghouls.

Offline Drew

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2006, 12:34:01 AM »
True.  But ghouls are humans.  Or at least they were before they were killed by another ghoul and rose as a ghoul themselves or were brought back by some necromancer or priest. 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 12:37:25 AM by Drew »
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Offline TormentedDragon

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2006, 02:54:41 PM »
eh... my point wasn't that current morality and ethics isn't applicable to D&D or BGII. My point was that you MUST, absolutely MUST, consider context. Always.

For the Forgotten Realms, the system of good and evil has some very definite absolutes. Lathander is considered a good god. All the deities acknowledge this, the followers of said deities acknowledge this, and the people who created the system made it that way. In the same manner, Cyric is an evil god. And Helm is neutral.

Oh, on a side note: the brutal slaughter of those who believe different from you in world history stemmed from one of two sources. The first is the belief that there is no other true religion, and that any who don't acknowledge this have to be taught otherwise. The second is that the religion simply advocates brutal slaughter.

The Forgotten Realms, for the most part, doesn't involve the first reason. Lathanderites don't kill Ilmaterites because Ilmater actually exists, and Lathander is not Ilmater's enemy. On the other hand, Lathanderites and Tallassans WILL kill each other, because Lathander and Talos are enemies. So the religious tolerance or the lack thereof stems more from the relations between the gods themselves. A page straight out of Greek and Roman mythology, perhaps?


But, of  course, I wander off topic. The topic at hand is: what should we do with the Human Skin quest?

The problem is that, for anyone who does NOT complete the armor, there is a lack of closure. For the most part, people like closure. The only way to get the armor within the game is to acquire the blood of a silver dragon, and the only way to do that is kill a silver dragon. The only silver dragon is good aligned, and happens to need your help, and also happens to be a mother. To kill said dragon would be, first, evil, and second, chaotic. Sure, you could justify killing her in the event she attacked you, but the only way to do that is to piss her off, which you can't do without insulting her, which is a rather... semi-evil or semi-chaotic action. Or, you give her eggs to the demon, which is evil.

My point is that the ultimate authorities (aside from Ao, who doesn't care, and therefore, doesn't matter) on Faerun are the deities. They pass down the moral code. As such, most any deity who is not CN, or Evil, would view killing the dragon as a bad thing. LN would see it as unlawful, regardless of whether they would see wearing the human skin armor as ok or not. Plus, I would venture a guess that most LN deities would frown upon openly evil acts, just as much as they would frown upon, say... mercy. Of course, that is a guess.

But, as the only way to finish the armor is an evil, chaotic path... good, or lawful, and most neutral characters probably couldn't justify finishing it. Leaving the options for bringing satisfactory closure to the quest as: find another non-evil way to finish the armor, or allow characters to put a stop to the whole operation.

With the first option, there are a number of other problems that crop up. First, is it evil to then wear the armor? Also, this just makes the game that much more in favor of good characters, from a powergaming perspective. And then you have to consider the virtue mod, perhaps, in whether or not to incur a virtue hit for that. In my personal opinion, this is the less favorable option, due to the questions of morality and ethics that will most likely be argued all around the block and never come to a satisfying conclusion.

The second option is, in my opinion, much more in line with what a good character would do. Try to somehow investigate the whole thing, track it all the way up to the originators (based off the fact that there were Rune assassins in the tanner's basement, it was most likely intended to be the Twisted Rune), and the put a stop to things.

On the note of brutal slaughter:

So, my personal take? I'm against allowing good-aligned players to finish the armor. Plus, there's that thing with the game already being biased towards a good character (which I have no problems with).

On the other hand, I would very much like an option to, say, dominate, charm, or otherwise convince Fael to spill the beans, then go and brutally slaughter all his comrades. I mean... I don't even get the option to brutally slaughter HIM, unless I force attack. And he tends to run for that inn door, and then promptly disappear. It's rather galling.

I don't think it would that great an idea to allow Good parties the option to "brutally slaughter" everyone they thought to be evil, or even those that actually were evil. Doesn't strike me as the Good thing to do.

Really? So... when you go down and destroy the Cult of the Unseeing Eye, through the brutal slaughter of the cultists and their "god," that is an evil act? Hmmm... not according to the church who sends you on the mission. Oh, and the paladins who go out and kill monsters who are encroaching on human territory are performing evil acts? Apparently, not in the eyes of their patron gods. The Order of the Radiant Heart would most assuredly advocate the destruction of the those responsible for the murders, both those who directly had a hand in it, and those who sponsored the operation. Most of the game, actually, is centered around the brutal slaughter of those who are a) your enemies, and b) evil. Usually they go hand in hand.

Also, in this particular case, it's not just that the characters THINK they are evil... but KNOW they are evil. And in the world of Faerun, that is apparently enough. I vote for allowing my paladin, or my chaotic good cleric, or my lawful neutral warrior, the option of bringing these evil, chaotic beings to justice, or vengeance, or what have you.

Or, another option, which is, perhaps, the simplest of all, is to set up a system where you can take the human skin, where it is not complete, to an authority, and leave what to do with it in THEIR hands. A priest of Ilmater, Lathander, or Helm, or perhaps one of the paladins, or Chief Inspector Brega... or Aegisfield, if he lives. All of those would serve as well, and based purely off volume of content, would be the simplest to implement.



On a side note, apparently, wearing the skin of undeniably evil creatures is just fine and dandy. Therefore, wearing the skin of the ghoul, which was made from the skins of undeniably evil creatures, is ok. Plus, I have to disagree with the statement that ghouls of are humans. They WERE human. Now, they're undead. More specifically, ghouls. And therefore... not human. Since they're not human NOW, it's apparently not that different from wearing armor made from the scales of an evil dragon.

Offline Drew

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2006, 07:22:26 PM »
Quote
On a side note, apparently, wearing the skin of undeniably evil creatures is just fine and dandy. Therefore, wearing the skin of the ghoul, which was made from the skins of undeniably evil creatures, is ok.
Actually, ghouls aren't undeniably evil.   They are humans who were killed in a very unfortunate manner.  Being killed by a ghoul is a pretty gruesome way to die, and most people would probably rather see their uncle/spouse/sibling who was killed by a ghoul and rose as one himself given a proper burial than worn as some sort of sick trophy by a Ranger.  We aren't talking about killing a dragon to create the Human flesh armor.  We are assuming that there is a non-violent means to aquire the blood.  In such a case, it would be no less immoral to wear the skins of humans who were killed by the twisted rune than it would be to wear the skin of humans who were killed by ghouls.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2006, 09:24:43 PM »
This may have already been suggested, but why not allow the player to substitute the blood of another dragon (i.e. Firkraag's, Nizidramanii'yt's or Thaxll'ssillyia's) for Adalon's? Of course this wouldn't lead to the player receiving the proper item; rather, it would have some other result.  For example, the use of an improper ingredient during the extremely precise creation process could lead to an explosion of magical energy, seriously harming or even killing Fael.
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Offline Elfen Lied

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2006, 03:38:59 PM »
sorry to ask this again, but where is the guy you take the dragons blood to, umar hills somewhere?, i couldnt find him on my last run thru the game
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Offline jester

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Re: A silver dragon's blood
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2006, 04:04:34 PM »
He is one of the traders next to the Inn. You are supposed to ask him for a certain book.
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