Author Topic: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)  (Read 9146 times)

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2005, 01:20:57 AM »
The standard rules of genetics DO NOT APPLY IN D&D!
Star Trek rules apply here. Klingons and Humans are not the same species. Yet they can interbreed. And those off spring can still reproduce.

Humans live to maybe 100 years Elves live to maybe 1,000 years. They can't possibly BE the same species.
Let me ask you this, if there was a species of Chimps just as smart as humans would you ever concider dating one?

Ebony is not racist for being 'ethnocentric' Most magazines boarder on ethnocentric towards white's

If your blind, there is no difference between a black man and a white man. However if your blind there is still a difference between a Human or a Dwarf or an Orc.

Do we expect a Hamster to mate Chimpmunk?

There is also the simply matter of attraction. Its unlikly a orc woman would ever be attractive to a human. Infact i'd see them as rather replusive. I've seen what a half-orc woman looks like in the Players hand book. Eww. Physical attraction isn't the most important thing by far, but it still holds value.


Now I had this PnP character Zathress he was an Elf and he wasn't interested in being romanticly involved with a non elf. How is he racist for only wanting to date within his own species. He has no problems with other demi-humans. He also has no problems with other elves dating out side of their own species. Just to him he isn't interested. So is he racist for that?

One of the reasons he gave for not say dating a human was thus.
"Because I would have to watch her die, and if we had children i'd watch them die, and my grandkids and great grand kids. Half-Elves live at most 150 years. If I live to a thousand how many generations of my kids would die before me"

In the end he married a Drow.


On the subject of Yoshimo, I thought he was done rather well in a japanese style. I've never heard the sterotype of japanese meen sneaky by the way.

Yoshimo was forced to betray you because of a geas.
You assume like a moron that him being asian and the traitor are connected.
Actually its because he was written at Tomoko's brother (Tomoko from BG1 Sarevoks lover)  A
nd just because he's japanese in style doesn't mean HE CAN'T be a traitor.
"No redemptions or second chances, let us get this over with! I stride into the hell that Irenicus promised! Ilmater take my heart, I have no choice!"
He walked in expecting to die.. wanting to die. Your way to over sensitive.

Far as I can tell its as thus, he as an honorible man. But he submited to Irencius geas. He wanted to die to make up for what he had to do.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2005, 01:31:01 AM by Lord Kain »
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline Operadragon

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Re: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2005, 01:31:01 AM »

And Ebony isn't a racist magazine, it's just that some of the things written in ethnocentric publications are deliberately meant to keep 'race relations' stirred up. It's not "racism" as you and I know it, but it is racism of a lesser degree; it keeps people focused on segregating themselves culturally from each other.

Racial issues in America aren't "fixed" by any stretch of the word, though . . . I think it's important to keep people aware of problems so that they don't get complacient. With things like racism, of course it's going to chafe nerves and get people upset -- but it has to, doesn't it? I'm confused, though. Blah. I've been told about nintey different things about this subject and I'm not sure which ones to believe.

It doesn't help any that I've never read an entire issue of Ebony.

I won't lie and say you can't be influenced by other theories and all, but you believe whatever you feel is right.

It's true that awareness is a good thing, but when taken out of context or when people refuse to educate themselves to belief systems other than their own, then people only see things one way, and perception can change in many ways from person to person. Racism is always going to chafe nerves, but people are oversensitive about it and use it as a straw man fallacy to distract people from real issues. Like those pictures. If those pictures were used in the same news story, then the context should be given, otherwise people react the way they did, and bringing racism as an issue into the Katrina disaster in that way is a distraction from the real tragedies...like women being raped in the restrooms by gangs. That is a real issue, and people would rather connect hot-button political issues to national disasters such as this. The public needs a scapegoat. That's why there's accusations being thrown around in political circles as to "whose fault it was" for not getting help to NO earlier. So, we are distracted from dealing with the real disaster again, this time by more political issues that are best left dealt with *after* the crisis has abated in the Gulf.

Psst...I've never read an entire issue of Ebony, either...but I have read Jet and Vibe. Those are good reads...really.

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Offline fcm

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Re: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2005, 01:40:32 AM »
On the subject of Yoshimo, I thought he was done rather well in a japanese style. I've never heard the sterotype of japanese meen sneaky by the way.

There is the stereotypical sneaky, cheating, lying Asian "thing" -- but being an Asian, I personally didn't find myself offended by Yoshimo.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2005, 01:41:58 AM »
On the subject of Yoshimo, I thought he was done rather well in a japanese style. I've never heard the sterotype of japanese meen sneaky by the way.

There is the stereotypical sneaky, cheating, lying Asian "thing" -- but being an Asian, I personally didn't find myself offended by Yoshimo.

I've never heard of it myself, but I guess as a big fan of anime and Legend of the Five rings I only hear the honor and mathamaticial stereotypes.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2005, 01:43:14 AM »
I liked Yoshimo because he seemed so sad that he had to betray you.  I'm sure he would've been a great friend had he not submitted to Irenicus' geas.
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Offline Operadragon

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Re: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2005, 01:50:09 AM »
For the sake of D&D rules, I agree...genetics generally don't apply to real-world races, because as we all know, in D&D...a human is a human is a human. Which does make a case for the genetics of race in real life, of course.

I can see the argument now. "...but D&D says that we're all just humans..." hehe

Now I never said that Ebony was 'racist' because it was ethnocentric...did you read my post? I said:
 

And Ebony isn't a racist magazine, it's just that some of the things written in ethnocentric publications are deliberately meant to keep 'race relations' stirred up. It's not "racism" as you and I know it, but it is racism of a lesser degree; it keeps people focused on segregating themselves culturally from each other.


That's my emphasis.

And I agree that there is a target audience for magazines, as there are for all mediums...and that the methods for coming up with those target audiences are based on socio-economic status.

The blind man analogy is great, and is very true, because in D&D, humans are all alike. Good call.

As for the bit about the elf's dating/mating preferences, that's individual preference. *shrug* Never said he was racist...where did you come to that conclusion?

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Offline fcm

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Re: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2005, 01:56:44 AM »
On the subject of Yoshimo, I thought he was done rather well in a japanese style. I've never heard the sterotype of japanese meen sneaky by the way.

There is the stereotypical sneaky, cheating, lying Asian "thing" -- but being an Asian, I personally didn't find myself offended by Yoshimo.

I've never heard of it myself, but I guess as a big fan of anime and Legend of the Five rings I only hear the honor and mathamaticial stereotypes.

It's mostly reminants from very early on in American history and WWII. Only fairly old people and the most ardent of racists really entertain the notion. Those and people who are keenly aware of racial slurs etc.

A lot of Asian culture is very incompatable with Ameircan culture, a good example is the way that one would talk to another. Until very recently, when Korea and Japan were both forced to cope with Western-run business practices, it was considered extremley rude to look someone in the eyes when they were talking to you. Now, if you're an American, and someone's talking to you and you're looking at the ground, you're not sending out the most trustworthy of images. You're going to look sheepish and like you have something to hide. But if my grandmother were still alive and I was looking at her eyes while she was talking to me, I'd probably get a big smack on the head for being rude and aggressive as hell.

"Why are you staring at me? Stop looking at me like that and just LISTEN!" vs. "Look at me when I'm talking to you, missy!"

And that's just basic stuff. It's funny how little inconsistancies like that can turn into full-blown stereotypes.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2005, 02:20:49 AM »
As for the bit about the elf's dating/mating preferences, that's individual preference. *shrug* Never said he was racist...where did you come to that conclusion?


I was refering to part of AnomenMustDie's statement that is racist for the NPC's of the game to have romance race restrictions.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline Eral

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Re: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2005, 02:25:04 AM »
..."Why are you staring at me? Stop looking at me like that and just LISTEN!" vs. "Look at me when I'm talking to you, missy!"
Yes, that's a big conflict for Asian children here. At school they get "Look at me when I'm talking to you!" and at home it's "What are you doing, looking at me when I'm talking to you?"


I'd like to say how amazing it is that so many governments/groups use propaganda like that, but sadly we fall for it just about every time. John Howard is still using the strategy to try to pretend people support his detention-for-refugees policy. We've had Commies as bad guys, Russians as bad guys, Muslims as bad guys, whoever is the current scapegoat. It's a fact that Irish jokes were first published in the English press at the time of the Great Famine, when Irish emigrants were undercutting the poor English labourers, because they were so desperate they worked for next to nothing and lived in squalid conditions.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2005, 02:32:01 AM by Eral »
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2005, 01:05:33 PM »
The offspring from a wolf x dog cross are fertile and able to reproduce. This fact
led to the taxonomic reclassification of the domestic dog by the Smithsonian Institute in 1993
as Canis lupus familiaris, a subspecies of the wolf.
Interesting. I did not know that. (Obviously.)


Quote
Anyway, I just don't consider Ebony and Jet or whatever "racist" magazines simply because they're based on the interests of a specific group of people. That would mean that virtually every magazine in circulation is an offensive "ism/ist" of some sort.
That depends on whether or not the focus of the magazine is something that the readers cannot change, or at least not without difficulty (such as skin color, nationality, or language), or something that is a conscious choice (such as whether they like fishing, humor, needlepoint, naked women, etc). It's perfectly all right to make value judgements based on something that a person has decided to do: For example, I am a nonsmoker and have at least one good reason to feel that I am 'better' than any smoker. It's only when decisions are made on a basis that has nothing to do with personality or morals ("Only Asians are allowed to join this club / work here / contribute to this magazine") that it becomes racist.

My rationale for seeing no difference between ethnocentricity and racism is that I don't have enough faith in humanity to believe that anyone can say, "Let's hear it for my race, rah rah rah," without also thinking, "I'm glad I'm not some other race, boo boo boo."

Offline Andyr

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Re: Speciesism, dogs and D&D (split from UB forum)
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2005, 01:47:57 PM »
I'm going to go through and trim this thread down for conciseness in a bit, and will probably move the dog stuff to EFCB. Just so you don't think it has vanished. :)

Why do you hate me so, Andyr?   :'(

Heheh, sorry. :) Well if the UB forum posters wouldn't keep going off-topic all the time...
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