Author Topic: Inherently Evil...  (Read 11295 times)

Offline Imrahil

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Inherently Evil...
« on: September 02, 2005, 10:03:58 PM »
(or "Why I've never installed the Virtue MOD")

I've never installed Virtue.† There.† I said it.† Been strangely averse to admitting it before.† Not sure why.† I think it comes down to a difference in the definition/perception of who (or what) is Inherently Evil & justifies a good killin'.

Fer instance... are Drow inherently Evil?† Probably not.† Sahuagin?† Probably so.† Why?† Because there are literary examples of non-Evil Drow but not of non-Evil Sahuagin?† Maybe.† Just plain not sure (plus, there's that Scribe-who-wrote-the-note-you-find-in-The-City-of-Caverns).

So, can *any* races be said to be Inherently Evil & thus deserving of death down to the last man, woman, & child, in the interest of protecting the "Good" races?† Is it a Good thing to wipe out the Sahuagin?† The Drow?† The Kuo-Toa?† Chromatic Dragons?† Duergar?† Djinn?† Rakshasa?† Doppelganger? (note that I didn't mention Beholders or Mind Flayers, on purpose, so as not to derail this into Topics That Have Gone Before)

I'm not sure, which is the purpose of this post.† You get a major Virtue hit for contaminating the Kuo-Toa pools (the recent bump was the actual impetus of this question), but not for slaughtering an entire Drow city (just because there's no option to slaughter the children?).

One Red Dragon death gets you a Drop while another is the essense of being a Paladin.† The death of one Cowled Wizard is Bad, while another is An Important Plot Point.† Why are you allowed to bargain with some Djinn but killing another is irrevocably Evil (even in the un-MOD'ed game)?† Why must you allow Unger to live to remain pure when your only (valid, if you want to do what Sarles asks) response at one point references his entire race's evil nature?

Anyway, I'm curious as to other people's thoughts on whether or not a given race (pick one) or even subgroup within a race is Inherently Evil & thus the slaughter (to the man-woman-child level) of said race could be seen as a Good act.

- Imrahil

Offline Salk

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2005, 01:52:00 AM »
The subject is very complex and people can always discuss what is and what is not inherently evel. It's ethic we are speaking about and there is not one single truth. Your point of view can be shared but in this case, you need to discuss, and refuse it as consequence, the whole ethical mechanism that Baldur's Gate is built on. You are asked to choose an alignment when you create a character. You are asked to live and see the world according to nine different angles and automatically you accept this once you start playing.

Questions about each single actions might arise and open several "philosophical" doors but what Virtue does, and it does it very well, is to refine the pre-existing system introduced by Bioware. It does not, and it could not because it's simply impossible, give the definite answer to what is right or what is wrong. It cannot judge what is ineherently good or evil. There is not such judge among mortals. But what it does it's to expand a chosen system to make it certainly more appropriate and consistent. Virtue works in the direction that the game is meant to go to. We might always question the ethical choices that we take playing the game but if you can accept to follow a path (that is however often - always ? - the most logical), then Virtue improves one's gaming experience, without any doubt.

The only problem is, like I addressed in another topic, the lack of one of the two axis: with Virtue there is no possibility to move from Chaotic to Lawful and viceversa. This would make it complete but I realize it's difficult and complex.

In short, don't delude yourself to be able to have a wider range of solutions without Virtue. The Reputation system that the vanilla game offers to you, keeps you imprisoned in a much smaller cage.  :pirate

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2005, 02:33:39 AM »
The more magical the creature the more its alignment is a part of its being. Beholders are prime examples as they are born fully grown. They are evil because each beholder that came before them was as such.

Mind Flayers are so alien and have no reguard for other beings. They are almost entirly Inherently Evil, the devouring brains of other humanoids puts them in the Inherently Evil catagory. However there is a story of a Mind Flayer who was converted to the side of good. That may have been a hicup in the cosmos.


Dragons embody there alignment. They are the children of there respective gods. Some such as Red and Gold Dragons are born smarter then most people. You can't raise a dragon to be a different alignment. Even the "stupidest" of them the White Dragon is to smart at the point of hatching.

I wouldn't say that a Sahuagin is born evil. There shark god is evil no doubt but they are born with out knowldge just like humanoid beings.

A creature born intelligent will like have inherent alignment. There minds have devloped before birth and thus they are set in there ways.

It is humans who have the greatest choice in alignment. Even the other demi-humans have a racial preference in alignment.


Also if players can't have some expectations on a creatures alignment, the game gets seriously bogged down. Questioning what is evil is hard enough in real life. I donít want it i my D&D games.
Also what fun is meeting the miracle good red dragon or other such evil race if its not a remarkable exception.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.† The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.† Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:† Hope.

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2005, 04:35:34 AM »
Dragons embody there alignment. They are the children of there respective gods. Some such as Red and Gold Dragons are born smarter then most people. You can't raise a dragon to be a different alignment. Even the "stupidest" of them the White Dragon is to smart at the point of hatching.



Also if players can't have some expectations on a creatures alignment, the game gets seriously bogged down. Questioning what is evil is hard enough in real life. I donít want it i my D&D games.
Also what fun is meeting the miracle good red dragon or other such evil race if its not a remarkable exception.

Actually, you've got a couple things mistaken there.  Quoteing from the Draconomicron (2nd edition resource book about dragons)

Quote
Rogues

As with humans, demihumans, and humanoids, the alignment of dragons reflects not instinctive behavior but an intelligent choice about how the creatures respond to the world. Certainly, dragons raised in a society with a strong alignment are probably going to share that alignment, but there's no law of nature that prevents a dragon from changing its alignment.  (In fact, the consequences of changing alignment are considerably less for a dragon than they are for a human or demihuman. Dragons progress in power depending on their age, so they suffer no direct ill effects from a voluntary alignment change.)

Dragons that voluntarily change their alignments are referred to as "rogues," and they're very rare indeed. Rogues have decided for reasons of their own that they don't go along with the world-view common to dragons of their species.

So, Dragons aren't tied by their alignment.  The alignment is just a guideline for what you would typically run into.  By and large, when you look at most intelligent creatures in the AD&D world, it is the society that shapes the creature, not an inherrant, instinctive behaviour.  However, certain practices by a particular species or a lack of empathy with outside species can cause the species to be viewed as evil by others.  For example, most people don't think twice about swatting a mosquito, or eating beef (vegetarians excepted of course).  In the case of a species like the Mind Flayers, what seems to be the case from all the descriptions is that they believe that very few others are at their level, and just like how most don't have any qualms about eating beef, Mind Flayers don't have any qualms about eating brains of intelligent species.  Its a case of viewing themselves as being so superior they can't perceive others being worthy.  This of course makes them a menace.

Beholders are xenophobes.  They hate that which is different.  This seems to be a racially inborn trait, and any who are born differently don't survive very long in such a xenophobic society.

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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2005, 05:59:08 AM »
Who or what you kill is of far less importance than why you kill them, and even how you kill them.  A good aligned character is perfectly justified in killing a hostile good aligned creature, as long as he has an acceptable reason (e.g. self defense, or the protection of another good aligned character), and he tried to reason with his attacker first.  On the other hand, attacking a non-hostile evil aligned creature is murder, plain and simple.  Similarly, poisoning a well, planting a bomb, etc in a village of evil aligned creatures is an evil act.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 06:05:00 AM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2005, 02:17:13 PM »


My Draconomicon unfortantly does not appear to have any mention of rouges at all. I simply say you BOOK IS WRONG. I disagree with its statement. My draconomicon mentions ideas of having dragons be the champions of thier alignments  instead of outsiders. And I can't find its passage on rouges.
When I talk about how smart a creature is I talk about how smart it is at birth. I mention a Red Dragon because its born smarter and with more knowldge then the average human. Something that begins life with such a level of thinking as a dragon must have some inherreted alignment.

Mind flayers see themselves as superior so they have no quaims about there brain eating habbits. Thus they are EVIL. If an evil being didn't see himself has superior to others he wouldn't be that evil. Evil is the disreguard for the lives of other intelligent beings. Mind Flayers embody that. They see themselves as superior doesn't make them anyless evil.

Creatures I place in the inherently evil ben,
Chromatic Dragons
Mind Flayers
Beholders
Vampires (D&D IS NOT Vampire the Masquerade so don't bring it up and don't bring up Angel or Buffy either)
Undead such as ghouls, wraiths and shadows and many others but not all.
And of course the whole class of demon's and devils


Inherently Evil only means that it starts evil. If you want to be a exact it about it. So while a red dragon will in almost every known case execpt for the rare cosmic shift be born evil. It can go rouge. A Red Dragon may still be Inherently Evil but still go rouge later in life.
Also Most evil dragons aren't even raised


Why is an important reason for why you slay it. The "pride" test is all about that.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.† The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.† Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:† Hope.

Offline jester

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2005, 03:27:22 PM »
Not that I mind this discussion again, but it is quite deja vu. Use the search sometimes if you feel like it.

Hating other species is not evil in our world IMHO.
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Offline Imrahil

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2005, 05:59:28 PM »
Not that I mind this discussion again, but it is quite deja vu. Use the search sometimes if you feel like it.
Several species have been discussed at length (Mind Flayers, Beholders, Dragons, etc.), but I'm curious as to whether there is a species everyone thinks is Pure Evil.† I haven't seen much discussion on doppelgangers, xvarts, sahuagin, (Tusken Raiders :) ), duergar, goblins, githyanki, etc., etc.† Is there a species that a Good character could be expected to kill on sight, down to the last man, woman, & child?

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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2005, 06:15:28 PM »
Such a thing would be an evil act, regardless of the victims' alignments, especially if the children can't even defend themselves.
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Offline Sorrow

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2005, 06:17:31 PM »
Is there a species that a Good character could be expected to kill on sight, down to the last man, woman, & child?

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Offline jester

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2005, 07:13:16 PM »
While it can be explained that prey never loves its predator it is not evil per se to kill your prey. Mindflayers may be awkward, if they feed on humans, but like sharks they are not evil just for this act. You could exterminate them just as well, but you won't get a feel good bonus for it.

Considering the lifespan and abilities of dragons I can see why they would at most consider elves to be worthy of conversation. Even if you like mice as pets you would never consider them equals.

and so on....
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2005, 07:54:15 PM »
Mind Flayers don't HAVE to eat human brains, they do it to gather knowldge and power. THUS THEY ARE EVIL. IT doesn't matter that they think they are above other beings. ALL EVIL beings thing there better then those they cause suffering. By that standard you can't have evil.† These are also guys who inslave other races in mass. (including the ancestors of the Githyanki and Githzerei.
Also Mind Flayers eat brains for power, not to surrive. They don't need humanoid brains to live.

Sharks swim eat and make little sharks, there animals. They eat because it is there nature.
Now if you say its a Mind Flayers nature to eat humanoid brains you could easily say. The act is evil, when a intelligent creature does it.

doppelgangers, xvarts, sahuagin, duergar, goblins, githyanki. None of these creatures are Inherently evil. Dopplegangers are actually usually neutral. duergar are about as evil as Drow.

The evil creatures that you can expect to kill on site, don't exactly have children. I don't want to think about Mind Flayer reproduction. as far as I know they are spawned off of an elder brain.† Beholders are born adults and thus your never killing a child.

Lets look at the other side of the coin for a moment.
A Unicorn is Inherently Good. Does anyone have a problem with that statement.
There are the Black Blooded Unicorns. Unicorns infused with demon blood. But thats not a Unicorn thats been altered by magic.


As a rule of thumb if the race has a child form you shouldn't be slaughtering them. Dragons don't actually have a child form

Here is the list of kill on sight.
Demons or Devils,
some evil outsiders of note are also
Hellfire Wyrms
Abyssial Drakes

Beholders {Execpt for Spectral who are usually neutral}
Vampires and any undead that feeds on the living.
Any mindless undead can be killed on site.
In general before Dragon hunting you should research the Dragon so you don't DIE. Thus you can be sure that this Red Dragon is just like 99.9% of all other Red Dragons.



FACT of the world of D&D evil exists it has substance.

Jester is something is Inherently Evil, its obvious it will commit evil acts.


In terms of pure evil only undead, outsiders and deties can be pure evil
« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 08:03:59 PM by Lord Kain »
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.† The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.† Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:† Hope.

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2005, 11:48:03 AM »


My Draconomicon unfortantly does not appear to have any mention of rouges at all. I simply say you BOOK IS WRONG. I disagree with its statement. My draconomicon mentions ideas of having dragons be the champions of thier alignments instead of outsiders. And I can't find its passage on rouges.
When I talk about how smart a creature is I talk about how smart it is at birth. I mention a Red Dragon because its born smarter and with more knowldge then the average human. Something that begins life with such a level of thinking as a dragon must have some inherreted alignment.


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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2005, 03:09:10 PM »
When I said my draconomicon I ment my editon of Draconomicon.
I only have a few 2nd edition books, and I still don't agree with the 2nd edition' statment on rouges. Everything else denotes Dragons having a fixed alignment.

I don't see peoples problem with Inherently evil existing in a FANTASY WORLD.

In the real world good and evil are points of view.
In the fantasy of D&D evil exists it can be weighed it can be measured. It has subtance, as evil tangible in D&D why can't come creatures be inherently evil.
In D&D evil is NOT a point of view. if you kill helpless people for your own gain reguardless if you think your above them because they are human and your a dragon/mind flayer/beholder YOUR STILL EVIL!.

That passage on rouges in the old (2nd edition?) draconomicon contradicts every other source on Dragons in D&D. From 1st to 3.5.
The other material says they are born into there alignment. None of the sources say its impossible to change but just very hard.  INHERENTLY EVIL means they inhereted evil.

Saladrax in watchers keep is a full grown evil red dragon. He may be in a reasonible mood. But he wouldn't have maintained the evil aura if he didn't do evil. He's not a rouge.


Like it or not, Inherently Evil creatures are a part of D&D, they are still quite rare. Limited to Dragons and outsiders and some types of undead. To a lesser extent Mind Flayers and Beholders.
If the players stop every enconter to question wait are they really evil? gets really boring really quickly. You can't shock players with the noble mind flayer, the kindly Eye Tyrannt. Or the fun loving red dragon. If they don't come to expect those creatures to be wholy evil.

The execption to the rule isn't any fun with out the rule. Playing a good drow isn't any fun if 95% of all other Drow aren't evil.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.† The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.† Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:† Hope.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2005, 01:39:50 PM »
Saladrax in watchers keep is a full grown evil red dragon. He may be in a reasonible mood. But he wouldn't have maintained the evil aura if he didn't do evil. He's not a rouge.
As has been said before, Virtue pre-assumes that you have Oversight installed, and with Oversight installed, Saladrex is NOT EVIL. Kish went through the game and altered certain alignments based on what is known about the characters: Saladrex is indeed a Red Dragon, but never attacks or even threatens you, nor does he seem to be a danger to anyone outside his lair. This air of pacifism is inconsistent with an Evil Dragon. Joluv, on the other hand, remains Evil because he has apparently stolen many artifact-level items from his homeland and is now selling them for his own gain, vacationing in much warmer climes as a result.

But I'm in full agreement with you about the "Evil aura;" If a creature detects as Evil, then that person either has done enough Evil deeds to bring them out of Neutral ground, or they intend to do those deeds. Such creatures most probably deserve death--although that does not in and of itself mean that YOU should kill them. Take Viconia: The townsfolk have no real charge against her, she has done nothing to harm them, but a Detect Evil shows that even if the people of Athkatla aren't justified in killing her, somebody almost certainly is. Rescuing Viconia is actually a Lawful Evil action, and letting her die is Chaotic Good. (Well, it's Good because nobody else on the map, not even the Fanatics of Beshaba, show up as Evil. If they did, letting her die would be Chaotic Neutral.)

Offline Silk

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2005, 03:23:45 PM »
The Fanatics showed up as evil to me when I did a "Know Alignment" on them.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2005, 04:22:54 PM »
Being nice and polite doesn't mean Saladrax isn't evil. Some of the worst people in history were poilte and always said please and thank you.

I see Saladrax as a Red Dragon who like any would rather gather his horde and age with out having to worry about heroes coming to slay him. He's polite be cause he's lazy. Just because a dragon is evil doesn't mean he can't be reasonible.

Saladrax aside, we can still debate attacking him first because even if he is evil. He can't escape watchers keep unless you slay demogorgon (who you wouldn't know about yet) So lets forget about that dragon a moment.



His kind is still born evil. Dispite what the 2nd edition Draconomicon manuel says. All other sources say chromantic and metalic dragons are born into there alignment.
Saladrax may be one of those rare execptions he might not.

Back to the subject of Inherently Evil or of any alignment. In the world of D&D it is a FACT some creatures are born evil while some are born good. Its easy to list demons and celestials as being born into an alignment.

The demi-humans simply have strong social structures. So most elves are chaotic good. Most dwarves are lawful. Most Drow are evil.

Dragon are born into there alignment, thats why it says always {thisalignment} under the monsters stats. The nature of a Mind Flayer or Beholder allows them a greater degree for alignment. But its hard for a Mind Flayer to be anything other then evil. Same is true with a beholder.

Also in Baldur's Gate it can take a LONG time to build up experince. Clearing out those 3 monster lairs in the underdark is a great source of such experince. Keep the game simple, there is nothing evil about clearing a lair of evil monsters.

Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.† The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.† Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:† Hope.

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2005, 04:56:05 PM »
Quote
His kind is still born evil. Dispite what the 2nd edition Draconomicon manuel says. All other sources say chromantic and metalic dragons are born into there alignment.

You've got me interested in this now.† If you don't mind, could you let me know what "all other sources" are that say dragons are born into their alignment, and says they have a fixed alignment?† I checked my council of Wyrms accessory, and that followed a similar pattern to the draconomicon, saying that dragons can change alignment, though this tends to be rarish.  Looking at the 2nd edition monster manual, it doesn't state that their alignments are fixed, or that they are not fixed.  It just gives norms for the various species.  Ie: a typical red dragon would be like ...., a typical gold dragon would be like ....
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2005, 06:21:41 PM »
the older monster manuel's simply stated a creatures alignment. There wasn't much room for changing stuff. Well the old
Both Draconomicon and council of Wyrms say that a dragon outside the nomarl alignment is rare.

3rd edition lists dragons having an alignment of always. Red's are listed as Always Chaotic Evil. As a rule this means that execpt for a VERY rare execption a red dragon will be chaotic evil. It also in the case of an always alignment creature they are born in such a fashion.

The later edition of Draconomicon doesn't even mention rouges and I've looked up and down it trying to find the passage. They do mention using dragons as the champions of thier alignment.

The old draconomicon and the council of wyrms do mention a dragon can change thier alignment but its rare. Now  Inherently Evil does not mean always evil. It just means the race almost always starts that way. Saladrax may drift to neutrality by virtue of being lazy.

There are 10 basic types of dragons.
5 Metallic and  5 Chromatic.

Metallic are the good dragons and Chromatic are the evil ones. Its quite a simple system. If you keep to this rule, the execption is far better. the vampire Angel isn't so special if his kind had a choice in being evil. Saladrax if he is indeed non-evil. Isn't special if Red Dragons normally have a choice.

Drizzt is special because the Drow are normally denied their choice to be good.

Dragons only stayy with thier parents for a fraction of there lives before striking out alone. In the case of most chromatic they don't even meet them.

I dont' have many old 2nd editon books sadly there hard to come by now a days and I don't trust ebay.

What I am saying is dragons have an Inherent alignment. Somehow managing to change it later is another matter. I've encountered a Good Red Dragon during a campaign once. But if all red dragons could choose to be good. It wouldn't have been special. It just would have been another guy we met and talked to.

The trouble with these debates is different people writing books for different editions. I like to keep my games more simple in the good vs evil contex.

I'd also point out the goddess of chromatic dragons is evil. Titimat. She has five heads one for each type of Chromatic Dragon.

A creature such as a dragon is born far too intelligent to not have Inherited an alignment. They can survive on their own from birth much like an animal. But there far smarter then animals at birth. Some are smarter then most humans. So does a dragon simply chose at birth? while its still in the egg?. An elf or a human or a dwarf would develop their *first* alignment during their early childhood as they learn right from wrong.

A dragon is so intelligent at birth compared to other creatures it must have inherented knowldge. Otherwise they wouldn't be so smart. You can't be smarter then the average human at birth with out having inherented some knowldge.
Now as dragons are capible of surriving on thier own after hatching. They must have inherented some kind of alignment to guide thier actions. Otherwise they'd be as helpless as a normal child.

If dragons don't have an inherent alignmnet, why is it that Red Dragons who don't normally care for there young turn out to be chaotic evil. Shouldn't it be any alignment or any evil. How do the evil colored dragons stick to there alignment in most cases if they are so often left to thier own devices as wyrmlings.
Left to thier own devices they shouldn't be inclined to a givin alignment. Perhaps inclinded to evil for being abandon but nothing on the law vs chaos scale.

So I say the old draconomicon is wrong because it just doesn't mesh to well with a dragons young life.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.† The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.† Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:† Hope.

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2005, 07:09:19 PM »
There are 10 basic types of dragons.
5 Metallic and  5 Chromatic.
Only in 3rd Edition.  In 2nd Edition, there are 23 basic (that is, listed in the Monster Manual) types, five being the neutral aligned gem dragons (amethyst, crystal, emerald, sapphire, and topaz), and the others being brown, cloud, deep, mercury, mist, shadow, steel, and yellow
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Offline Mongoose87

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2005, 07:11:30 PM »
In a way, this is simply proof that the dragons recieve their alignment form nurutre ratehr than nature. †If they are born, and immediately forced to fend for themselves, this is forcing them to take an every-creature-for-itself attitude, not even giving the dragon a chance to learn of good. †By the time they do know good alignemnts, they would be so firmly entrenched in their alignment they would be difficult to change. †Of course so unsually ciscumstances would cause a different alignment to be taken.

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2005, 07:27:28 PM »
In a way, this is simply proof that the dragons recieve their alignment form nuture rather than nature. †If they are born, and immediately forced to fend for themselves, this is forcing them to take an every-creature-for-itself attitude, not even giving the dragon a chance to learn of good. †By the time they do know good alignemnts, they would be so firmly entrenched in their alignment they would be difficult to change. †Of course so unsually ciscumstances would cause a different alignment to be taken.


ah but its not proof. whether or not Red Dragons are inherently chaotic evil. They still prefer that alignment. Why do they prefer chaotic evil and not neutral evil or lawful evil? If left to fend for them selves cause them to be evil it should be a random evil there shouldn't be a preference. Or a fend for yourself should result in a more neutral outlook.
Yet they still at the very lest prefer the alignment chaotic evil. If they don't inherent a trait that pushs them to that alignment and they usualy don't have parents to raise them as such. How could there typical alignment be chaotic evil?
This is why I see them as inherenting the evil trait. If they could be raised to be good. Metalic Dragons could simply adobt young wyrmling chromantics and raise them all to be good. If that was possible I think the good dragons would do as such. They are kind and caring after all. The answer I see it. Is because they know it won't work.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.† The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.† Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:† Hope.

Offline rreinier

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2005, 08:13:10 AM »
Mind Flayers don't HAVE to eat human brains, they do it to gather knowldge and power. THUS THEY ARE EVIL. IT doesn't matter that they think they are above other beings. ALL EVIL beings thing there better then those they cause suffering. By that standard you can't have evil.  These are also guys who inslave other races in mass.
You agree with me, then, that modern humans are inherently evil and should all be slaughtered? Let us see:

- We don't HAVE to use animals in medical research, we only do it to gain knowledge and, in a way, power (power over the diseases that afflict us).
- We (many of us, at least) think we are above those we cause suffering
- We enslave every creature we can find a use for, whether agricultural or scientific.

Shall I start the righteous slaughtering?

Offline Salk

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2005, 02:29:48 PM »
rreinier,

the difference, I believe, is that every and each Mind Flayer acts following some rules which are gladly accepted by the whole society and that we would classify as "evil".

In truth, not all humans believe that it's fair to use living animals in medical research. Not all humans think they are above those we cause suffering and not all humans enslave every creature they can find a use for.

When we classify a whole race as Evil (like the Mind Flayers), we do a strong generalization which can exist only in order to create a scenario that needs to set in a quite straight manner what is Good and what is Evil. Exceptions to these rules must be kept such. Among Humans we find the Evil and the Good. But not among the Mind Flayers. This is just my two cents...

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Inherently Evil...
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2005, 10:06:17 PM »

You agree with me, then, that modern humans are inherently evil and should all be slaughtered? Let us see:

- We don't HAVE to use animals in medical research, we only do it to gain knowledge and, in a way, power (power over the diseases that afflict us).

The ethicial issues of testing on animals are a matter of opinion.

- We (many of us, at least) think we are above those we cause suffering

Of course people think they are above those they cause suffering to. If they didn't feel above them they'd feel bad about it.

- We enslave every creature we can find a use for, whether agricultural or scientific.
Once again its a matter of opinion as to what is the right way to treat an animal.

From an animals point of view humans may indeed be evil. (assuming good and evil aren't human concepts)

Good and evil are only a point of view in real life.

People can argue for hours on the ethics on scientific reasearch on animals. The main factor is simply the value placed on an animals life.

However in D&D good and evil are not a points of view. They are tangible forces.
Mind Flayers, Beholders and Chromatic Dragons ARE FICTIONAL creatures. What the HELL is wrong with saying they are born evil? They can't get offended.

Should there be groups in the world of D&D waving these signs?

"Vampires are people to"

"Just because they eat our brains doesn't
mean we shouldn't treat them right"

"Sauron should have stood trial"   (for those who forget Sauron forged the one ring)

"Don't deny a demons right to exest"

"Its our right to sacrifice our babies to bhaal"

While those kind of protesters would be quite funny in D&D. IT wouldn't be a part of any serious campaign.

Accept the fact that some creatures in the fantasy world are inherently evil. Or go read non-fiction.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.† The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.† Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:† Hope.

 

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