Author Topic: Backstabbing with axes  (Read 6360 times)

Offline Resonance

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Backstabbing with axes
« on: August 29, 2005, 08:31:39 AM »
Hi

I'm not sure this is the right place, but I reckon it might be...
Does anyone else with Universal Weapons installed have trouble getting their thieves to backstab with axes? It seems mine simply cannot... If that is just the way it works, and will always work, I'll just have to bite it down...

But for now, I feel as though I may be missing out on a fix of a DnD rule that I always considered to be broken.

Offline Borsook

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2005, 09:06:49 AM »
From what I know there's nothing in itm file like "backstabbing" nor any 2da that would govern that... (though I'd be glad should I be proven wrong) so either it should work with all items or its hardcoded... anyway axes are against 2e logic, you want sneak attack not back stabbing, play IWD1&2 ;) (not trying to be malicious)
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Offline Resonance

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2005, 10:41:09 AM »
I see.
But I take it you haven't tried the same, B?

Import from the SimD tweak pack thread:
Uh. No, the Improved Backstabbing component shouldn't affect which weapons are actually able to backstab. It could be that your thief doesn't have a high enough modifier for backstabbing to actually make any difference with an axe.
(Incidentally, I don't think axes can backstab in vanilla BG2, but you say you have AoE installed, so.)

Hm. In that case, this is probably not the right thread for this subject; but just to round it off:
What happens when he tries to backstab with axes is that he doesn't get to backstab.
He simply gets his attack; wheras his shortsword easily backstabs in the range of 20-30 hits. Strange.

I see that bigg has already found a solution to the actual component problem! :applauds:  :D
(Not that I can make heads or tails of it, but hey!)
Well, 3e sneak attack (available in IWD1&2) assumes that when hitting from the side/behind you can better aim and hit more nevralgic part, 2e backstabbing assumes classic "knife between shoulder blades" (which BTW should kill all humans instead of extra damage) so slashing weapons cannot backstab. 2e approach may seem illogical, hell WOTC backed out of it in 3e, but that's how it was...

my major objection to the 2e rule is that it isn't even consistent, either.
A quarterstaff between the shoulderblades is supposed to accomplish the same as a knife, dagger or shortsword? That is beyond my suspension of disbelief.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 10:47:47 AM by Resonance »

Offline Borsook

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2005, 11:19:05 AM »
No, I just had a "theoretical" look through files, I don't care that much about Universal Weapons... As for quarterstaff... well one could argue that you could hold it like a spear, but I agree it is highly illogical. To be honest I don't use backstabbing in 2e games, cause it's not worth it...
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Offline Resonance

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2005, 11:54:52 AM »
you may have a point ( :D ) there; but I simply like being able to mount sneaky attacks as a natural continuation of sneaking around, scouting.

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2005, 07:38:58 PM »
The way a weapon in BG2 can backstab is if it's usable by single-class thieves.  Which an axe should be, with AoE.  Strange.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2005, 09:08:54 PM »
anyway axes are against 2e logic, you want sneak attack not back stabbing, play IWD1&2 ;) (not trying to be malicious)
Just IWD2, actually.  IWD1 is good ol' 2E :).
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Offline Borsook

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2005, 12:04:34 AM »
anyway axes are against 2e logic, you want sneak attack not back stabbing, play IWD1&2 ;) (not trying to be malicious)
Just IWD2, actually.  IWD1 is good ol' 2E :).
Nope. It's 2e, fact, but HOW gave you the option (in the external config) to choose between 2e backstabbing and 3e-like sneak attack, possibly backstabbing was pissing a lot people off (who can blame them?)
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Offline Resonance

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2005, 02:08:04 AM »
The way a weapon in BG2 can backstab is if it's usable by single-class thieves. Which an axe should be, with AoE. Strange.

Ghreyfain, if you, or anyone else for that matter, has managed to backstab with axes in BG2, I'd very much like to hear about it, so that I can go absolutely and certifiably insane, until I somehow discover how it is done...
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 02:10:02 AM by Resonance »

Offline Hide and Seek

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2005, 05:07:24 AM »
The way a weapon in BG2 can backstab is if it's usable by single-class thieves. Which an axe should be, with AoE. Strange.

Ghreyfain, if you, or anyone else for that matter, has managed to backstab with axes in BG2, I'd very much like to hear about it, so that I can go absolutely and certifiably insane, until I somehow discover how it is done...
My half - orc multiclass fighter/thief is able to backstab with the Stonefire Axe.
I was very suprised by this, but happy indeed.

It doesn't seem to work every time, but I might be doing it wrong.
I don't know which component that allowed me to do so, is it the universal weapons component that is responsible?
If that's the case, thank you! I love backstabs.
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Offline Borsook

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2005, 07:06:42 AM »
So, Resonance how about weidu.log? Maybe you've stumbled upon some incompatibility between mods?
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Offline Resonance

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2005, 12:29:23 PM »
You're asking to see it?

It's a bit long, I might have to warn you. ;D

Offline Borsook

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2005, 12:51:36 PM »
You're asking to see it?

It's a bit long, I might have to warn you. ;D
It might help, I dunno if I personally would be able to help you, but maybe somebody will...
Alternatively you could try to narrow it down - do a backup of Override, chetin.key, weidu log and start uninstalling mods one by one and see if it helps (prepare beforehand a save just before the opportunity), if it doesn't help throw in your backup and... wait for some bright person to think of something :)
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Offline Resonance

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2005, 06:11:19 PM »
It is working! :)

The irritating thing is that I never got to retry backstabbing with the axe before uninstalling Sims tweakpack components of improved backstabbing and additional racial enemy components (the latter of which I weren't using anyway, so that was mainly because I was lazy, and there was a rumour about that one about)
For what it is worth, right now, at least we are down to one of two possibilities:
either, I was somehow doing it 'wrong', OR the improved backstabbing/additional racial enemy components from Sims tweakpack version 14 has some kind of influence, anyways.

But this time, I'm actually suspicious of how I carried out the experiment the last time...
If my F/T simply never experimented backstabbing with axes versus shortswords on any other than the tougher Duegar warriors from the Tactics mod (the most plentiful opponent in chateu Irenicus when using the improved Ilyich) and therefore simply never managed a hit in time for his backstab to work, that might have erroniously convinced my untrained eye (used no backstabbers playing through BG1) that I simply weren't being allowed to do it... The fact that the shortsword backstabs where an instant success could be attributed to simple coincidence.

My selfsuspicion is made quite plausible by the fact that now, the backstab works every time on the 'imp ilyich' mages, but only rarely on the warriors...
much ado about nothing, I'm affraid. :P

Well, at least I now know it is working.

Offline Resonance

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2005, 07:32:11 PM »
I'm just back to say: aaaaarrrrggh!

Offline Borsook

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2005, 12:42:22 AM »
I'm just back to say: aaaaarrrrggh!
Exactly.
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Offline Resonance

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2005, 06:16:38 AM »
Sorry, guys.  :-[

I'll make a serious effort to be a lot more scientific and thorough in my approach the next time a problem occurs.

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2005, 09:10:14 AM »
I just ran a test and Silverstar had no trouble backstabbing with... A HALBERD.

Yep, the game checks for backstab-ability by seeing if a thief can use it, which, you mod makes almost all weapons eligible.

I think it's odd to backstab with a Halberd.

Offline Borsook

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2005, 10:33:30 AM »
I just ran a test and Silverstar had no trouble backstabbing with... A HALBERD.

Yep, the game checks for backstab-ability by seeing if a thief can use it, which, you mod makes almost all weapons eligible.

I think it's odd to backstab with a Halberd.
you can stab with a halberd...
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2005, 12:24:17 PM »
You can hit people's vulnerable bits with a halberd, a dagger, a club, a staff, or a jumbo jet, assuming you have the strength requirements and proficiency with it.
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Offline Borsook

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2005, 12:39:00 PM »
You can hit people's vulnerable bits with a halberd, a dagger, a club, a staff, or a jumbo jet, assuming you have the strength requirements and proficiency with it.
Yeah, D&D has the wrong aproach, a needle is not much of a weapon, but when sticked into a right place it can cause a lot of damage...
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Backstabbing with axes
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2005, 05:05:42 PM »
You can hit people's vulnerable bits with a halberd, a dagger, a club, a staff, or a jumbo jet, assuming you have the strength requirements and proficiency with it.

A Critical hit is hiting people's vulnerable bits. A Backstab is just a critical hit on command for extra special effect.
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