Author Topic: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")  (Read 29526 times)

Offline fcm

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2005, 01:51:27 AM »
Personally I'd say no to both - IMHO two people sharing similar DNA is far less important than their father being the same person.  Incidentally, the British government has recently introduced a law which makes it illegal for even step siblings to have sex (though I'm not sure what happens if a married couple's respective divorced/widowed parents were to meet, fall in love, and then get married themselves ;))...

You know, my father actually works with a man who is married to his step-sister in this way. First, his coworker met his wife-to-be and became married, and through their relationship, the couple's widdowed and divorced parents met and later were married. It's kind of off topic, but I like the story.

Since Imoen and male protagonist a) aren't genetically brother and sister and b) weren't raised as brother and sister, I wouldn't go so far as to call their relationship, should they have one, incestuous. Personally, however, if I were playing a male character, I wouldn't want to romance Imoen. I ditched her in BGI for just about every other character and tend to become annoyed by a lot of what she says in BGII. I know, I'm terrible.

And for the pedophilliac argument: 15 really isn't all that young. I was dating Seniors aged 18/19 when I was 15. Then again, everyone thought I was a Junior at the time because I wasn't covered in pimples and didn't act like an idiot. It's a personal maturity thing. Since I've never played the mod, I can't really say anything about it. I'm incredibly wary of downloading new NPCs . . .

It would sit a little better if she were even a year older, however. Which is funny, because the difference is only a matter of months.
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Offline jester

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2005, 02:02:51 AM »
@Nightmare

@Frankenstein junior:
Genes are transmitted via sperm so the father's brain would have nothing to do with it.

'..completely altered his DNA.....two people sharing similar DNA'  uh? come again? His kids would not even be related in your example. Let's hope that the laws passed are of more intelligent design than their makers.

It is about mixing genes to enhance resistance against diseases and weed out recessive genes which malfunction. The rules are just there to enhance that. Nature made it in a way that where breeding is 'unnatural' it is impossible.. Though I have read that it was a custom in ancient Egypt for pharaos to wed siblings (Simply because as walking gods they had no peers).

This all does not factor in the Imoen sense as she is completely unrelated to the protagonist in our sense of the word.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 07:05:49 AM by jester »
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Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2005, 04:26:27 AM »
I think a virtuous 80-year-old is more virtuous than a saintly 5-year-old.  The fogey's had more time to sin.  The five-year-old is going to hell for picking his nose, anyways.

All right, Ghrey, I'll play ... Who else is from New Zealand?

Play what?  Vel's from NZ, and he was talking about escaping the things he deals with in Real Life.  Presumably those include extraplanar teenage paladins with tails.  But not orcs.  Everyone knows those only live in the northern hemisphere.

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Offline Eral

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2005, 04:49:56 AM »
I was confused, too by this reference to New Zealand. Silk is our only one, as far as I know. Perhaps Ghrey was under the influence of rum at the time, hence the confusion. Or his supa-moderator powers were out of whack. This may have been due to rum as well.
Seanas, Cliffette, Vel, me and RevRatBastard (although he's been in the States a long time) are all Australian. Anybody else?

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Offline Jyzabyl

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2005, 06:28:16 AM »
Add another Aussie to the list. I was going to stay out of this one on the grounds that's it's another real life vs virtual life debate. If I was 17, romancing a 15yo wouldn't be an issue. I'm 37, romancing a 15yo strikes me as well... icky. If I was a 257yo elf, romancing a 15 human strikes me as being as boring as bat shit - briefly interesting, but what do you talk about over breakfast?
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Offline Sorrow

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2005, 06:39:20 AM »
<CHARNAME> is 20 anyway, so there's no problem.
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Offline Evaine Dian

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2005, 11:29:27 AM »
That's what people are having problems with. A 20-year-old is an adult, a 15-year-old a child. Such a relationship might be ok in the setting of BG, but in the real world it's considered illegal or at least disturbing.

Speaking of disturbing: http://chosenofmystra.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21225#21225
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Offline Regullus

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2005, 12:23:46 PM »
 Re Saerlith: I know Sillara & Nethrin have cited reasons for the character's age but I think the mod would have a wider audience if her age was either not specified or she was older. Also 15 seems awfully young to be a full blown paladin but maybe she is a prodigy or maybe it isn't as unusual as I suppose.


 I think I would have to agree w/EvaineDian that the above link is somewhat disturbing.

Offline fcm

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2005, 12:32:11 PM »

Speaking of disturbing: http://chosenofmystra.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21225#21225


Oh . . . my . . . God.

I sincerely, for once, hope that that is an internet relationship.
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Offline jcompton

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2005, 12:50:53 PM »
Well... those of you who are married or in a serious relationship (that didn't start in this fashion), play this little mental game...

"If I was 20 and he/she was 13, would I really have wanted to just walk by only because of age?"

The flipside, however, is that trying to meet people in this fashion is liable to get you arrested.

Concerned parent: "Just what do you think you're doing following us?"

You: "Yer little girl could be my soulmate. Muahahahah!"
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Offline Sorrow

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2005, 12:56:35 PM »
Oh, who cares, let's just kill them all.
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Offline fcm

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2005, 01:14:49 PM »
Well... those of you who are married or in a serious relationship (that didn't start in this fashion), play this little mental game...

"If I was 20 and he/she was 13, would I really have wanted to just walk by only because of age?"

The flipside, however, is that trying to meet people in this fashion is liable to get you arrested.

Concerned parent: "Just what do you think you're doing following us?"

You: "Yer little girl could be my soulmate. Muahahahah!"

My boyfriend was an obnoxious little rebellious pothead when he was 13, so yes. Plus, I'd like to think I could do better than 13-year-old boys who say things like "Lemme' see your jugs, man. COMEON!"

13 year old boys are horrible creatures, so are 13 year old girls. I don't care who they're going to grow into -- I'll wait until they grow into that, first.

You know, I don't care how mature you think a 13 year old is, when the 7 year age difference constitutes over half of the younger party's entire life, it's not right.
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Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2005, 01:19:15 PM »
You mean "Lemme see your jugs, man. COMEON!" Doesn't work?
Well that explains a few things and no mistake.

But yes. Teenagers are icky. And giant age gaps, especially when one person hasn't reached adulthood yet is icky x2
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Offline jester

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2005, 01:23:25 PM »
13/20 is definitely quite a thing. A seven year gap in the twenties is not that bad, but there are a lot of things going on in that time of life. I was arguing the medieval setting of FR! IRL I would find it disturbing for my child to engage in such a relationship. Err...icecream! Anybody wants icecream?

 BTW Ice thanks for bringing this up.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2005, 01:27:02 PM »
@Nightmare

@Frankenstein junior:
Genes are transmitted via sperm so the father's brain would have nothing to do with it.

'..completely altered his DNA.....two people sharing similar DNA'  uh? come again? His kids would not even be related in your example. Let's hope that the laws passed are of more intelligent design than their makers.

My point was that IMHO genes, DNA and all that gunk are irrelevant.  What matters is that the same person is the father of both the guy and the girl.  After all, when the first incest laws were created, no-one even knew that DNA existed.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 01:29:28 PM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Sorrow

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2005, 01:33:56 PM »
But they surely noticed that the children from such relationships were less healthy than children from normal relationships.
"That's because gods have forbidden incest and now they punish those who commited it."
It's obvious.
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Offline jester

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2005, 01:39:11 PM »
Exactly my point. The reason they exist is a biological one. Since intelligent design is not based on genes, mating in some areas of the world will soon transcend incest rules as some claim it has always done in these regions anyway.
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Offline Drew

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2005, 01:43:25 PM »
NIGHTMARE does have a point, though.  Early jewish law considered step-relationships incestuous.  (Most likely because they didn't know anything about DNA.)  On the other hand, I'm not too keen on allowing the government to make ethical decisions for me.  Unless a crime has a victim it isn't a crime.

EDIT: My wife says I didn't use enough detail so I'll clarify.  By victim, I mean someone who is injured physically or financialy.  Envioronmental protection laws protect the species as a whole so breaking them would also mean there is a victim.  Laws saying homosexuals can't marry do not qualify.  I would personally like to see the term "victimless crime" become an oxymoron but, alas, many people feel that law exists to enforce their own moral viewpoints rather than to protect us from each other. :'(
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 01:56:44 PM by Drew »
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Offline fcm

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2005, 01:45:29 PM »
But they surely noticed that the children from such relationships were less healthy than children from normal relationships.
"That's because gods have forbidden incest and now they punish those who commited it."
It's obvious.

Then why was it encouraged among royalty? They had to have known that all the inbreeding made them nuts, but they did it anyway. That's frustrating to no end.

And in the Middle Ages, everyone thought that potatoes were unholy and caused syphalis. There was a lot about that time that was incredibly odd. However, take this into consideration. In other countries that aren't as moderized or leisurley as the "Western" world, in places like Afghanistan (I'm only using it as an example because I'm reading West of Kabul, East of New York, so shut up) children grow up much faster, because they spend considerably less time being infantile and a lot more time working and doing adult things. In a world where you start doing heavy labor the instant you're most able -- it's not so bad to be wed off at 13 or 15 or whatever, because you've been taking care of babies and raising crops since you were 3. None of us would expect our 3 year olds to hop in a car and go tend the McDonald's fryolator, but that's basically what children way back then did. Maybe that's why no one but the affluent lived past 30-40.

However, we have the luxury of experiencing extended childhoods well into our very, very late teens . . . so . . . that's exactly why something like robbing the cradle like that should be/is wrong.
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Offline fcm

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2005, 01:48:23 PM »
Exactly my point. The reason they exist is a biological one. Since intelligent design is not based on genes, mating in some areas of the world will soon transcend incest rules as some claim it has always done in these regions anyway.

In some places, the preferred place to procure your mate is from among your first cousins. I'm not talking about Kentucky, either. Entire countries.
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Offline Sorrow

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2005, 01:54:42 PM »
In other countries that aren't as moderized or leisurley as the "Western" world, in places like Afghanistan (I'm only using it as an example because I'm reading West of Kabul, East of New York, so shut up) children grow up much faster, because they spend considerably less time being infantile and a lot more time working and doing adult things. In a world where you start doing heavy labor the instant you're most able -- it's not so bad to be wed off at 13 or 15 or whatever, because you've been taking care of babies and raising crops since you were 3. None of us would expect our 3 year olds to hop in a car and go tend the McDonald's fryolator, but that's basically what children way back then did. Maybe that's why no one but the affluent lived past 30-40.

I agree.
The manual states that FR children start work early and usually take over their parent's business.
In our world children and teenagers have extended childhood, because they usually don't inherit their parent's business, but search their own way of life.
To me a thought about having a life predetermined by parent's occupation and number of children is just... err... unacceptable.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 01:57:33 PM by Sorrow »
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Offline fcm

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2005, 02:06:37 PM »
So then, perhaps historically a 15/20 relationship isn't quite so bad. However, historically, a woman can be beaten mercilessly in the street for no good reason. Why not make a mod about that, too? It could be an NPC romance between Fawny McSubserviant and your fists. Great stuff.
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Offline Sorrow

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2005, 02:17:46 PM »
Done that.
It brought a malicious smile on my lips and made me feel warm inside.
From the other side with all those female adventurers I doubt if laws that allow to beat only women would hold out for long.
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 02:19:50 PM by Sorrow »
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Offline jcompton

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2005, 02:30:42 PM »
However, historically, a woman can be beaten mercilessly in the street for no good reason. Why not make a mod about that, too? It could be an NPC romance between Fawny McSubserviant and your fists. Great stuff.

You obviously missed the days of Juna.
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Pedophilia ("Ephebophilia" or "Hebephilia")
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2005, 02:38:49 PM »
Except whoever was making that got the boot.  At least we can all feel safe knowing that Moongaze will never, ever realise the completion of any of his mods.  Edit: I have been informed that there's a public beta of Kari the Kobold.  WHO'S GOT EGG ON THEIR FACE NOW?

* Ghreyfain also acknowledges that he is being nasty.  I welcome any and all chafing about my foibles.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 02:49:26 PM by Ghreyfain »
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