Author Topic: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion  (Read 3268 times)

Offline Deathsangel

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Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« on: August 04, 2005, 03:08:44 PM »
SimDing0.

I was playing with my paladin who suddenly lost her class, which surprised me a bit for I did not think that act would cause a virtue drop.

Let me first tell you that I did took one virtue hit prior by sacrificing a kobold as to gain the nice strenght belt of the demon knights, before you say you may have one virtue drop, for that is correct I used that and I am certainly not against the fact that 2 virtue drops lets one loose there paladin class. That is okay with me.

However, my paladin had enough of all Underdark denizens (except the Svifnerbelin), thus wanted to exterminated the kuo-tua. What did I do? I brought the sick fishies to the good fishies and voila... virtue drop. Now there may be a good reason for this, so I don't want to jump to conclusion, but what is wrong about destroying another evil (mind you) race of the underdark. I reckon, if this causes a virtue drop then the killing of the drow egg guards, cause I can never seem do this stealthy even hided in shadows and improved invisible like, should also cause a virtue drop, which doesn't happen or esle there are a) no more creatures left you can kill  :P b) It would be way to much coding.

Hoping to hear from you soon,

The Deathsangel
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2005, 06:29:16 PM »
While you've got little choice to kill the hostile kua-toa attacking you in that area, there's nothing forcing you to indiscriminately exterminate their entire race, which is effectively what tainting the tadpoles does. The PC's not in any direct danger from anything red-circled, and there's no reason to believe that such extermination will only affect potential evil-doers.

I'd also consider killing the egg guards to be somewhat different given that they're assisting in witholding Adalon's eggs from her, and that they're inherently unfriendly adult drow.

Offline Deathsangel

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2005, 01:38:14 PM »
Thanks for the explanation. Though I still beg to differ about there need to be a red circle close by, but I can see your side of the medallion.
Now where did that old interessting mod go? What was it called? O yeah, The Mod for the Wicked. Well, it has been revived!!! Check it out at SHS and at http://www.geocities.com/fanaticfantasyfan

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2005, 07:10:05 AM »
I'm not saying that there has to be a red circle nearby for you to be justified in killing something, but I think it has to raise questions when you exterminate an entire race which isn't neccessarily a direct threat.

Offline rreinier

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2005, 10:16:36 AM »
Why is being an inherently unfriendly adult drow a reason for getting slaughtered, when being an inherently unfriendly big fish with a crossbow isn't?

Also, you're not exterminating an entire race. You're destroying a single colony, which happens to be close to both a Svirfneblin settlement and the surface, and thus able to pose a threat to lots of generally Good people.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2005, 11:18:05 AM »
Why is being an inherently unfriendly adult drow a reason for getting slaughtered, when being an inherently unfriendly big fish with a crossbow isn't?

Also, you're not exterminating an entire race. You're destroying a single colony, which happens to be close to both a Svirfneblin settlement and the surface, and thus able to pose a threat to lots of generally Good people.
Well, you can either kill the Egg Guards before opening the door, or open the door before killing the Egg Guards. If you take the first path, you only have to kill 2 Drow. If you take the second path, you have to kill every single Drow that sees you on your way out of the city. Now, you can't exactly know this all beforehand, but it's pretty obvious that if the Guards see you just waltz into the top-security vault they're guarding, they'll raise the alarm.
This situation could use a tweak, though: The only reasons the Guards wouldn't start yelling is if they were convinced of your permission to enter the Vault (in which case, the Golems should leave you alone, too), or if you killed them both at the same time. A Solo player would find it nearly impossible to kill both of them in the same round, so I suggest that either one of the Egg Guards should be removed, or a small conversation be written so that a player with the Despana Treasury Key can exert his authority to enter the vault unhindered.


As for the Kou-Toa....I think the Virtue drop being associated with the Tadpoles reflects on the idea that the young of a species (any species) are inherently Neutral, and even Evil races can be trained Good if raised in the proper environment, so infecting the young for the sake of their parents' sins can be called unvirtuous. There's also the fact that the Kou-Toa are total pansies, and there's no need whatsoever to contaminate their young in order to weaken the population as a whole (well, a Solo player might need to do it in order to kill the Prince, but that's pretty much it). If the Svirfneblin can survive right next to a Drow city, I'm sure they have no trouble with the Kou-Toa.

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2005, 11:17:32 AM »
Why is being an inherently unfriendly adult drow a reason for getting slaughtered, when being an inherently unfriendly big fish with a crossbow isn't?
No, you can get away with killing hostile drow and hostile big fish alike. Poisoning (killing in a slow and sadistic way-- I believe the tadpoles are "corrupted" rather than exterminated) their young, which pose no direct threat to anyone, is, I believe, a different matter.

Quote
Also, you're not exterminating an entire race. You're destroying a single colony, which happens to be close to both a Svirfneblin settlement and the surface, and thus able to pose a threat to lots of generally Good people.
I don't recall. Do the Svirfneblin mention them as a threat, or are they just concerned with the drow?

Offline rreinier

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2005, 09:25:55 AM »
The young Kuo-Toans may not be a direct threat to anyone, and they may not yet be evil, but they sure as hell will be, unless you decide to scoop them up into a bucket and hand-rear them to perfectly friendly fishes.

Which happens to not be an option.

Also, they might be pansies compared to UBER !()()th LVEL EHROSSZZZ!!!!!!!!11111, but to, say, a stray Svirfneblin (Berlen Daglefodd, for instance) they would be a significant threat. In fact, they'd be a significant threat to most anything that happens to be in the vicinity and below, say 9th level.

I'd say killling them off saves a good deal of future trouble.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2005, 01:59:29 AM »
The young Kuo-Toans may not be a direct threat to anyone, and they may not yet be evil, but they sure as hell will be....
Hey now, that sounds like you're condemning someone based on race alone. Didn't we do this already with Viconia's execution?  ;)

(Speaking of which, if I were a Paladin that happened on that scene, I'd just pop a Detect Evil. And walk away, confident in the knowledge that even if the Drow hadn't committed a capital crime against the people executing her, she certainly had in the past. Not derailing this discussion, by the way. :) )

Offline Deathsangel

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2005, 03:50:25 PM »
Just to get back on this I don't think you kill the entire race of the underdark, but only that section...

As another virtue drop (of 2!) I wanted to ask about is the fact of killing Saladrex the dragon in Watcher's Keep. I ask this for I am a Cavalier who fights the ancient evils = dragons and demons. So I kind of have a thing for killing him. Now with detect evil he doesn't pop up, but totally doesn't pop. He doesn't seem to have magic resistance... I don't know if that means he isn't evil, but I wondered why this virtue drop and certainly the big 2 one. Keldorn, Mazzy and Anomen (even Saerileth, but that is a mod NC so I need to keep her out of it) did not object or anything when I said I disliked it or so. I do not really see why I can't kill it. I understand there isn't really a reason for killing it and I would not do with my Undead Hunter, but my Cavalier is just itching. May I know why this virtue drop is big, for I haven't lost yet one virtue so I could do it if it were only one...

Just want to know the arguments behind this
Now where did that old interessting mod go? What was it called? O yeah, The Mod for the Wicked. Well, it has been revived!!! Check it out at SHS and at http://www.geocities.com/fanaticfantasyfan

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2005, 04:38:41 PM »
There was a nice long discussion about why you should get a virtue drop for Killing Saladrex.  You can find it on these forums here
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Offline Deathsangel

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2005, 05:55:01 AM »
thanks I'll read it
Now where did that old interessting mod go? What was it called? O yeah, The Mod for the Wicked. Well, it has been revived!!! Check it out at SHS and at http://www.geocities.com/fanaticfantasyfan

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Odd virtue drop... at least in my opinion
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2005, 02:42:11 PM »
The point of the sick tadpoles to the healthy ones is to weaken the fishy prince.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

 

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