Author Topic: Paladins falling  (Read 22795 times)

Offline Borsook

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2005, 06:23:04 AM »
A paladin is NOT lawful just for following laws. A Paladin is lawful because he must follow a strict code of conduct.

Part of being a paladin is geting all these nifty powers but having to follow a strict code. How could an evil paladin have a strict code of conduct.

...

Soililng paladins by having versons for all alignments is a mistake. Remember Paladins are lawful because of there code, not for following laws. Thier code promotes good thus they are lawful

...
 
Evil can't support a strict code of conduct.

So you're saying you can't have any characters of Lawful Evil alignment?
But paladin is more than  lawful-good. Assuming its lawful-evil counter part, how would that work? Paladin sees a person in need, he helps, lawful-evil paladin - .... just doesn't help? Not much of a "code". Kills that person? too chaotic... I just don't see it. For me the opposite of paladin (ie. blackguard) would had to abandon also the lawful part, otherwise it's a hybrid, unfeasible...
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2005, 10:15:31 AM »
Exactly any code for a lawful evil character would be easy to follow.
Lawful Evil characters just have a "reason" more often.

A Chaotic Evil character, may simply torture for only his own pleasure.
A Lawful Evil character, isn't so random, the torture people for infomation or as punishment, If they get a kick out of it, well thats a bonus.
Of the three evil alignments, lawful evil is the most liky to keep thier word.

Now here is an example of how my lawful evil half-fiend in PnP got around his word with out breaking it.
A battle with the last of the temple guardians was taking to long, for the plan to move forward it had to end quickly.
So my blackguard said, "Surrender now and I promise on my honor and the devil blood in my veins I won't kill you"

Now devils are lawful evil fiends, and never EVER break a contract as they are lawful evil incarnate. No mortal could be more lawful evil then they.

But of course they never go beyond the exact wording of a contract.


The guardians surrendered. My fiend walked away turned to his underlings err I mean the rest of the party. And said.
"Kill them"
The wording of the contract was he wouldn't kill them, not that someone else wouldn't.
(From the PhB)
Lawful Evil
"Dominator"

A lawful evil character methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He is loath to break promises, and is therefore very cautious about giving his word unless a bargain is clearly in his favour.

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They feel these personal morals put them above unprincipled villains.

Many lawful evil characters use society and its laws for selfish advantages, exploiting the letter of the law over its spirit whenever it best suits their interests.

Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.
Lawful evil is sometimes called "diabolical", because devils are the epitome of lawful evil. Other examples of lawful evil characters include tyrants, corrupt officials, and mafia bosses.


Basicly Lawful Evil as more of a "motive" for being evil.


The STRICTEST possible way to play a lawful evil character is below.

1. Always keeps his word of honor.   (but never beyond the exact wording)         
2.   Lies and cheats those not worthy of his respect. 
3.   May or may not kill an unarmed foe.
4.   Never kills an innocent but will harm, harass or kidnap. (Innocent is still a matter of opinion in D&D)
5.   Never tortures for pleasure but will to extract information.
6.   Never kills for pleasure - always has a reason. (
7.   May or may not help someone in need. (Good PR can be good for a Tyrant)
8.   Respects honor and self-discipline. Has no time for the law.
9.   Will work with others to attain his goals.
10.   May take dirty money.
11.    Never betrays a friend. (how many friends do evil characters have)L


Do note this isn't perfect, and few lawful evil characters follow all of these guide lines.
But that code is easy to follow compared to a paladin.

The champions of evil aren't lawful because being evil doesn't require any rules.

Being a Champion of good means alot of rules about how your suposed to act, a chaotic or neutral good character would chafe under it.

A Cleric to Tyr follows his dogma to the letter, a paladin would follow it to a lesser degree. Helm would never ask his paladin's to do a lawful neutral task that would violate the paladin's code. Paladin's of helm only follow the aspects of helm that appliy to a paladin, Which is protection of people part.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline Andyr

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2005, 01:43:31 PM »
That was my point. Your posts seemed to indicate you didn't think that there could be anything Evil with a defined code of conduct; that there was no Lawful Evil. Then just above you've posted examples of it - Devils.

I was merely disagreeing with your original implication that Lawful and Evil could not go hand-in-hand.
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2005, 02:39:55 PM »
The essense of being a paladin IS GOOD, reguardless of helm. ONCE again the definition of a paladin is a HOLY warrior of virtue. Champions of a noble casue. This is the THIRD timing I'm saying this.
And the third time that I'm refuting it. I am fully aware of what your book says, there is no need to repeat it, I am simply stating that I feel your book is wrong. To presume that only Good-aligned people can be intensely devoted to their faith is both arrogant and illogical.


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If you notice Adjantis from BG1 a Paladin of helm is STILL lawful good.
Yes. According to my documentation, Helm can have followers of any Good or Neutral alignment (which seems odd to me, it should be any non-Chaotic), so giving Ajantis an alignment that agrees with canon Paladin rules was the politic way to go. That does not, however, prove that Paladins of Helm must be Lawful Good.


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Also check helm's dogma. It includes, protect the weak, poor, injured and young. Do not sacrfice them for others or yourself.
Mine just says that his portfolio is "guardians, protectors, protection." This could mean shielding a sick woman from the blows of a tyrant, or it could mean keeping a group of starving villagers away from the wagons of food being sent to feed an army.


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The Forgotten realms actuallys breaks the standard rules about paladins and their gods.
Precisely. If it's wrong, fix it--which is exactly what I think I'm arguing for here. You disagree with me, as you have every right to do.


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As being evil involves being selfish, destructive and other wise cruel. Reguardless of the dark deity.
Not necessarily....Auril is Neutral Evil, and she's the goddess of cold and winter. Sure, blizzards kill animals and destroy crops, but if you die because of her, it's more likely to be because you were stupid enough to wander around outside when you shouldn't have been, rather than from any cruelty on her part. Freezing to death is actually one of the least painful ways to go.
I doubt anyone would want to play a Paladin of Auril....it sounds pretty boring, really. ("I am the overlord of this cryogenics facility!")


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Its easy to follow a code put forth by bhaal. Its no harder then one of his clerics.
And yet you're trying to say that there could be Lawful Evil Clerics of Bhaal, but not Lawful Evil Paladins. Uh-huh. Pardon me, but I don't recall seeing the limitation "Must have code of conduct that is really difficult to follow" in the Job Description of being a Paladin.


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Evil deities are UNHOLY, lack virtue and never have a noble cause. (reguardless of what they or there followers think)
Quite the contrary, what their followers think is of primary importance. Whether it's holy zeal or unholy zeal, it's a connection with the divine, and that makes you a holy warrior. Whether it fits a Good person's definition of "noble" or not is what's irrelevant.


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An evil paladin is not a paragon of chivalry, they aren't heroic. And they aren't noble.
Now that I think of it, the Sith are an excellent analogy to Evil Paladins. Darth Vader does kill his own followers, but not because they're weak; he does it only after they make some significant failure. He is humble and submissive before his master. He fights only those who could pose a significant threat to him. We have repeatedly seen him spare his attacker's life. When he uses torture, he does so to gain information, rather than for pleasure. He truly believes that what he is doing is the right thing.


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The title of paladin is reserved for noble warriors of virtue. .... Evil has its champions but they are NEVER called paladins and they never have as strict of an alignment or code.
I don't really care what they're called, but they should still be based off the main Paladin class: Warrior stats, reduced weapon specialization, spells and abilities granted by their deity.


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Exactly any code for a lawful evil character would be easy to follow.
For a Lawful Evil being, yes. If you're all for hatred, strife, and tyranny, then being a follower of Bane should come naturally to you--which is the reason that anybody would become a Paladin, because it's what they believe in.


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A lawful evil character methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He is loath to break promises, and is therefore very cautious about giving his word unless a bargain is clearly in his favour. This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They feel these personal morals put them above unprincipled villains.

Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.
And you're telling me that that doesn't sound like an Evil Paladin?


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The champions of evil aren't lawful because being evil doesn't require any rules.
That's funny, because you just stated 10 of them.

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2005, 02:45:05 PM »
I only said lawful EVIL can't have a STRICT code. A code of conduct and a strict code of condcut are not the same. One is strict the other is not strict

Lawful Evil characters exploit any loop hole, in a contract or there word that benfits them.

A Paladin doesn't look for loop holes in there code, such a thing would show a lack of faith and they would become fallen. For they aren't truly lawful good.

The code of a paladin is about helping others. Its grown from the basic behavior of being lawful good.

The base of lawful evil like all evil is self satisfaction. For thier own gain. You can't have an evil code thats not greedy. What kind of evil code isn't centered on yourself. I'm saying the code doesn't work when reveresed for evil characters.

The two closest things in D&D to an evil paladin are the Death Knights (undead) and Blackguards. Both of which are most powerful when they come from a fallen paladin.

Part of being a paladin is the challange of mainting the code. If the rest of the party is quite as good as he is. They might get upset they have to turn over hard earn treasure to the people because it was originally stolen form them.

There is little challange in maintaining the code of a lawful evil villian. Avoiding being an implusive evil villian and you've almost got it.

So there are no evil paladins and there never will be. The paladin title its self means good, they gain these powers because they sacrfice for thier code. Evil characters do not sacrfice any where near as easily. And when they do make a sacrfice they often expect to win out of it in the long run.


There is no champion warrior class of neutrality in any offical material i've read. Closest thing being a druid.
Paladins of helm must be lawful good, because all paladins are lawful good.
Helm is lawful neutral but he doesn't allow his clerics to be lawful evil, As lawful evil beings exploit the law for thier own ends and thus anger helm.
The only reason I see helm IS neutral as opposed to good is because he will stand and guard something for the greater balance. Such as how he barred the gods from returning to the outer plane and caused the death of several good deities as well as many evil. But he won't protect a tyrant trying to exploit the law for his own gain.

The evil paladin does exist under another name, but its more martial based and less divine then the paladin.

The definition of the word "paladin" is from a dictonary.

A paladin in most campaign settings doesn't even need to worship an exact deity.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 03:21:10 PM by Lord Kain »
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2005, 08:35:41 PM »
Now that I think of it, the Sith are an excellent analogy to Evil Paladins.

Slight flaw in your argument: Sith aren't evil Jedi, and Jedi aren't good Sith.  They're two different groups of people with access to the same source of "magic", and even then they make use of different areas of it.  They might share some powers (speed, jumping, etc) but others are completely different; for example, whilst Jedi have the power to heal and play mind tricks, Sith can telekinetically choke people and throw lightning around.

Now an evil holy warrior who can kill from a distance and has an innate Lightning Bolt ability would be pretty cool, but he wouldn't be an evil paladin, he'd be an evil holy warrior.  I mean, a murderer isn't an evil hero, is he? And believe it or not, evil holy warriors do exist in pnp D&D, in various incarnations.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 08:38:00 PM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2005, 08:50:44 PM »
nightmare I ask you refer to holy as good and neutral divine and unholy as evil divine.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 08:56:14 PM by Lord Kain »
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2005, 12:22:25 AM »
Lawful Evil characters exploit any loop hole, in a contract or there word that benfits them.
True, for those characters who are merely Lawful Evil, as opposed to Evil Paladins. Allow me to illustrate the difference in 'strictness' of which you are so fond. Evil Paladins must follow all rules of being Lawful Evil, as well as the following:
1] They must honor and obey the rules of all Evil societies, in both letter and spirit, most importantly the laws of the sect of their own god.
2] They may never break their word to anyone. They may intentionally mislead only creatures who are known to be of Good alignment or serve a Good god. Outright lies are forbidden at all times.
3] They may not kill through means of stealth, trickery, traps, or poison.
4] Must work to gain the maximum advantage (to his god, lord, or society) out of any deal, stopping short of actual cheating or intentionally hiding pertinent information from other parties. The Paladin is under no obligation to reveal such information, however.
5] Must fight honorably whenever possible: One-on-one duels, preferably with the opponent allowed to choose between ranged and melee combat. The Paladin is, however, encouraged to deny any request for mercy, provided he was ever in any actual danger.
6] Must support and defend those in need, provided those in turn honestly pledge fealty to the Paladin's god, lord, or society.
7] May not accept anything suspected of being stolen, nor knowingly derive any benefit from any crime.
8] May never intentionally wrong a friend or ally unless a full and fair warning is issued well in advance.

How's that? Strict enough for you? Certain exceptions would be made for certain deities; for example, a Paladin of Loviator would certainly use poisons, as well as torture, with the justification that pain purifies the soul.

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The base of lawful evil like all evil is self satisfaction. For thier own gain. You can't have an evil code thats not greedy. What kind of evil code isn't centered on yourself. I'm saying the code doesn't work when reveresed for evil characters.
I'm hoping I just changed your opinion on that.

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There is no champion warrior class of neutrality in any offical material i've read. Closest thing being a druid.
Yeah, I'm also sensing a lack of motivation among most Neutral gods. A Paladin of Tempus makes a heck of a lot of sense (a lot more than someone like Branwen calling herself a "warrior priestess"), but what cause would they fight for? To destroy all efforts at achieving peace? Of course, this phenomenon is hardly unique to the Neutral gods--can you imagine a Paladin of Lliira? :D  ("If you don't start having fun in the next 5 minutes, I'm shoving you into the dunk tank!")
But there are at least some Neutral gods that might have Paladins: A Paladin of Kelemvor might be like an Undead Hunter in reverse, patrolling cemeteries to ensure that the sleep of the dead is uninterrupted, whether from living or undead sources.

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Helm is lawful neutral but he doesn't allow his clerics to be lawful evil, As lawful evil beings exploit the law for thier own ends and thus anger helm.
I get the feeling that Evil Clerics of Helm would forgo all dishonest parts of their alignment in token of their faith. They could still be Evil, just work against the forces of Chaos.


Now an evil holy warrior who can kill from a distance and has an innate Lightning Bolt ability would be pretty cool, but he wouldn't be an evil paladin, he'd be an evil holy warrior.
What, precisely, would be the difference? If his non-martial skills are granted as blessings from his god, I fail to see any great distiction, so long as he used those divine powers in accordance with the laws of his deity--which indeed he would have to, if he wanted to keep them. There's no rule that says Sith Lightning can't be used to fry a guy trying to kill your friend, or that you can't use the Force Grip on a coward trying to flee from a duel.

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I mean, a murderer isn't an evil hero, is he?
No, but that's not a result of a person's abilities, rather a result of how he chooses to use them.

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And believe it or not, evil holy warriors do exist in pnp D&D, in various incarnations.
Good. All I'm asking is that those incarnations be made into something that is essentially an Evil counterpart to the standard Paladin, or at least allow existing Paladins to roleplay duties and alignments corresponding to other gods.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 01:04:58 PM by SixOfSpades »

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2005, 01:54:04 AM »
Six part of the base of your argument is that paladins are as devoted to gods as clerics. That is a false statement. the Forgottenrealms does alot of funky things with paladins they don't do in other settings.

The paladin IS NOT a champion of his deity, the chosen of {insert god name here} are the champions of a deity. The chosen of mystra are the champions of mystra, the chosen of bane are the champions of bane.

Paladins are champions of good. Some gods in faerun choose to sponser these champions of good and grant them thier divine power. Your base assumption is that a paladin is a champion of their god. But they aren't sometimes they are if the god is also good. But the class its self is the chamion of good.

A champion of a deity should really have thier own class (and in 3.0 they often do)
Such as The vassel of bahamaut is the champion of the god of good dragons. The Talon of Tiamat is the champion of the goddess of evil dragons.
They have thier own basic code of following the deity in question.
One book even has the Prestage class for champion of bhaal and he's dead.

The champion of Lovatar shouldn't be a blackguard it should be someone who's class is specialized in torture

On a final note, D&D was made to play heroes. The system and rules that govern it, are ment to support heroic characters. D&D books on evil campaigns only really came to light in 3.0


A few problems with your code for lawful evil characters.

1) They must honor and obey the rules of all Evil societies, in both letter and spirit, most importantly the laws of the sect of their own god.
Problem, lawful evil doesn't follow the spirit, they only follow the wording. Following the spirit of the law is for neutral or good beings. THE really fun in playing lawful evil, is breaking your word with out actually breaking it.

Line three has its problems
3) They may not kill through means of stealth, trickery, traps, or poison.
What kind of villian doesn't uses trickery? traps? or poison? the execption would be made for any evil god.

7) May not accept anything suspected of being stolen, nor derive any benefit from any crime.
Bane himself stole a tablet of fate, obviously lawful evil guys steal.

The problem with the strictness in a evil "paladin" version is, the code interferes with being evil.
Over all your code is somewhere in between lawful neutral and lawful evil.

The blackguard PrC in 3.0 is "essentially" the evil counter part to a paladin. They share some of the key powers but lack many of the others. You also can't become a blackguard tell Level 6. But a blackguard can be of any evil alignment. The most powerful blackguards in terms of supernatural ability come from
ex-paladins.

But the blackguard still lacks some nifty paladin powers, they get some of thier own nifty stull in return.

The blackguard its self has no code, they need only be evil. A blackguard who isn't pledged to an evil deity lilky gained his power through a demon or a devil. But the only "fallen" blackguard is the one who stops being evil.


P.S Kelemvor does have paladins, yes there purpose is to slay undead. But his paladins are still lawful good.

The champions of evil should be free to be as evil as they wish to be.

Oh an here is a nice picture of a blackguard.
(http://img1.yoxio.com/img/198216.jpg)

« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 02:03:56 AM by Lord Kain »
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline Borsook

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2005, 06:46:47 AM »
There's no rule that says Sith Lightning can't be used to fry a guy trying to kill your friend, or that you can't use the Force Grip on a coward trying to flee from a duel.
First a normal jedi would not known how to do it. Sith were originally an alien race with knowledge of the force far surpassing any of the humans. The Jedi who possed this knowledge and were later on called the sith do not hand it around freely, setting aside computer game "interpretations". Also many Jedi (e.g. Yoda) consider such things a "misuse and abuse" of the force. So those things would be exlusively used by the sith, why they might use them for the reasons mentioned, they'd also use them for a hundred others. BTW sorry if I missed something this discussion gets mixed-up, if you're keen on evil "paladins" why don't you make such a kit and we'll see how it works?
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2005, 07:40:18 AM »
What, precisely, would be the difference?
There would be more of a difference between an evil unholy warrior nd a paladin than there is between a paladin and a ranger.  If you're going to call the evil unholy warrior an "evil paladin", you might as well call a ranger a "nature loving paladin", refer to a mage as a "cleric with arcane spells", etc.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2005, 08:45:00 AM »
Thank you Nightmare
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2005, 02:23:07 PM »
Paladins are champions of good. .... But the class its self is the chamion of good. .... lawful evil doesn't follow the spirit, they only follow the wording. Following the spirit of the law is for neutral or good beings. .... What kind of villian doesn't uses trickery? traps? or poison? .... Bane himself stole a tablet of fate, obviously lawful evil guys steal.
Lord Kain. Will you PLEASE, just ONCE, try to accept that the very essence of making a mod involves a change to the game. I honestly do not care what your manuals say--all D&D references are actually nothing more than guidelines, subject to the DM's interpretation. I honestly do not care how many times you toot your little trumpet saying, "Paladins are Lawful Good! Paladins are Lawful Good!" I am not talking about what is. I am talking about what should be. Try to comprehend this:
I...am...suggesting...a...CHANGE.


With that bit of unpleasantness over, I shall now actually respond to your points.

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Six part of the base of your argument is that paladins are as devoted to gods as clerics. That is a false statement. the Forgottenrealms does alot of funky things with paladins they don't do in other settings.
My take on Paladins, of all alignments, is as follows: Like Clerics of their faith, they fervently pray to and zealously follow the teachings of their chosen god. If they perform actions displeasing to their god, or otherwise break or lose faith, their ability to cast spells and perform certain other feats is withdrawn from them. Unlike Clerics, however, Paladins swear a different set of oaths and are bound by a different set of restrictions: They are far more skilled in the arts of war, and can use a larger variety of weapons without offending their deity, but they can never become the true conduits of divine will that Clerics can be, and they must live up to a set of principles ordained by both their alignment and their god. These principles are often far stricter than even the most spartan lifestyle of any non-Paladin, and are designed to make the Paladin into a model member of society, and a credit to his religion, whatever society and religion those might be.

Cleric = holy priest. Paladin = holy warrior. Honestly, if you're going to argue that Evil gods can't have Paladins, you might as well go the whole way and say they can't have Clerics either. For that matter, I should point out that I've also never seen any plausible justification for why all Paladins must be Human.


Quote
The paladin IS NOT a champion of his deity, the chosen of {insert god name here} are the champions of a deity.
I don't care what they're called--Evil Paladins, Dark Paladins, Vassals of Bahamut, Talons of Tiamat, Blackguards, Baneguards, Trueswords of Arvoreen, Sith--as long as they exist in-game, and function in a manner similar to existing Paladins, like I described above.


GENERIC EVIL PALADIN

Class: Paladin
Race: Human (for now)
Alignment: LE (perhaps NE as well, depending on the deity)

ADVANTAGES:
- Special Ability of Detect Good 1x/day per level
- Special Ability of Protection from Good 1x/day per level
- Gains access to the 3rd-level spell "Unholy Blight"
- May use weapons reserved for Evil Fighters and Paladins, such as Unholy Reavers
- No penalty for losing Virtue.

DISADVANTAGES:
- Does not gain ability to Detect Evil
- Does not gain ability of Protection from Evil
- Does not gain access to 3rd-level spell "Holy Smite"
- May not use weapons reserved for Good Paladins, such as Holy Avengers
- Turn Undead ability can Charm Undead instead of destroying them
- Will become a Fallen Paladin and lose all Paladin abilities if Virtue rises above 2


There's no rule that says Sith Lightning can't be used to fry a guy trying to kill your friend, or that you can't use the Force Grip on a coward trying to flee from a duel.
First a normal jedi would not known how to do it. Also many Jedi (e.g. Yoda) consider such things a "misuse and abuse" of the force. So those things would be exlusively used by the sith, why they might use them for the reasons mentioned, they'd also use them for a hundred others.
My point was that, while any person capable of using those skills could use them in an underhanded manner, an honorable Sith Lord would feel it his duty to use them in a fair and just way, such as to smite an enemy attacking someone who was unable to defend themselves. Jedi consider such things a perversion of the Force? Good Clerics won't cast Unholy Word.


There would be more of a difference between an evil unholy warrior nd a paladin than there is between a paladin and a ranger. If you're going to call the evil unholy warrior an "evil paladin", you might as well call a ranger a "nature loving paladin", refer to a mage as a "cleric with arcane spells", etc.
I both agree and disagree. There is no similarity between a Mage and Cleric, they gain and cast their spells in completely different manners--though I can see how a Cleric (and, by extension, a Paladin) of Mystra would gain access to Wizard spells, which would appear on their Priest scroll.
I can, however, see how the entire Ranger class could be treated as Paladins of the nature-oriented gods, such as Silvanus, Eldath, Malar, etc. After all, Rangers cannot Dual-class to become a Thief or Mage--but they can become a Priest.

Offline Andyr

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2005, 03:21:48 PM »
nightmare I ask you refer to holy as good and neutral divine and unholy as evil divine.

Why the lumping together of Good and Neutral?
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2005, 05:48:42 PM »
Six the point YOU MISS, is that paladins gain these special powers because of special restrictions. IF you have both good and evil paladins. The restrictions are GONE. Doesn't matter if you have codes for various alignments. A player can gain the same kind of bonus no matter there alignment. They can just pick an evil paladin if they can't roleplay lawful good.

Its easy to play a cleric, you just pick the deity your able to follow. If you can't play lawful good character correctly you just pick a different deity. If you can just have a paladin for good or evil alignments. It becomes easy to roleplay a paladin. If you can't roleplay lawful good right, just be an evil one.

Anyone can be a cleric, or fighter or a wizard. Many can play a ranger, but not so many can roleplay the paladin correctly, they'd normally do something that would make a paladin fall. Now if your paladin can gain the same basic array of powers wether he is good or evil. You have a problem. The class is no longer special anyone can now play a paladin.

I don't like your supposed changed because I think it takes away from what makes a paladin special they are so rare because so few can live up to the code. Having options in your alignment makes them easier to play, less special.


Paladins have to be human for the save reason dwarves can't be wizards or elves can't be druids (half-elves can) Its a mechanic because they never gave humans racial bonus. Thus the restricted things from other races.


Aerie and Mazzy have a funny banter in ToB about how once long ago half-lings could only be theives (1st edition). But the gods changed this so now Halfings had more freedom in their class (2nd edition), so maybe one day half-lings could be paladins

Mazzy responds with. "And maybe will grow taller and thin, I doubt the gods are going to revamp the half-lings and come out with a third edition."

I will never support a change to reduce the status of a paladin to be just like anyother class.
The path of the paladin is supposed to be a long hard road. If you can just make up an evil paladin. The road isn't so hard. If you can't make it as an good paladin you can just take the easy road an be an evil one.


Why the lumping together of Good and Neutral?

Because  Netholy sounds really stupid, dark deities and there minnions are always refered to as unholy
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 06:15:11 PM by Lord Kain »
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2005, 02:34:32 AM »
Six the point YOU MISS, is that paladins gain these special powers because of special restrictions.
While I obviously see the justice in this as far as game balance is concerned, it makes no roleplaying sense whatsoever. My character might have the "special restriction" of being lactose intolerant, but that doesn't mean he magically gains any "special powers" as a result.

Quote
Doesn't matter if you have codes for various alignments. A player can gain the same kind of bonus no matter there alignment. They can just pick an evil paladin if they can't roleplay lawful good. If you can just have a paladin for good or evil alignments. It becomes easy to roleplay a paladin. If you can't roleplay lawful good right, just be an evil one. Many can play a ranger, but not so many can roleplay the paladin correctly, they'd normally do something that would make a paladin fall. Now if your paladin can gain the same basic array of powers wether he is good or evil. You have a problem. The class is no longer special anyone can now play a paladin. I don't like your supposed changed because I think it takes away from what makes a paladin special they are so rare because so few can live up to the code. Having options in your alignment makes them easier to play, less special.
Distilling all of that to find the germ of what I think you said, you seem to be objecting to the idea of an Evil Paladin doing whatever the heck he wants to, and never Falling. Which makes me wonder: Did you miss the part where I outlined the restrictions on roleplaying an Evil Paladin (which were a good deal more stringent than the guidelines of being merely Lawful Evil that you posted)? How about when I mentioned how an Evil Paladin would Fall if he performed any significant action solely out of the goodness of his heart? It's quite true that Virtue has nowhere near the complexity required to keep track of how different Virtue events would affect Paladins of different alignments (at least, not yet), but if this were a PnP game with a human DM, an Evil Paladin would be just as difficult to roleplay as any Good one.
Yes. Evil people CAN still be just as legal, aboveboard, and honorable as Good ones. Yes they can. The difference is in their motivations for doing so.

Quote
Paladins have to be human for the save reason dwarves can't be wizards or elves can't be druids (half-elves can) Its a mechanic because they never gave humans racial bonus. Thus the restricted things from other races.
Once again you cling to the letter of the D&D sourcebooks, apparently with no regard for their spirit. You have already shown us that you can quote the rules in the manual--now perhaps you'd be so good as to justify them?
Certain race/class/alignment rules make perfect sense: It seems rather obvious why there are no Dwarven Druids, as Dwarves stereotypically prefer to spend the majority of their time in caverns and underground cities, which is hardly getting in touch with nature. But other rules make no sense whatsoever: Elves and Gnomes can both be Fighters, Thieves, and Mages, and Elves are the only race that can be all three at the same time....so why the hell are both races prevented from becoming Bards?!?

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2005, 06:31:33 AM »
This discussion is still higly theoretical, again: SixOfSpades why don't you do that kit and we'll see how it works in practise?
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2005, 09:29:11 AM »
You asked why only humans can be paladins and I answered, don't actually agree with race class restriction.

Distilling all of that to find the germ of what I think you said, you seem to be objecting to the idea of an Evil Paladin doing whatever the heck he wants to, and never Falling. Which makes me wonder: Did you miss the part where I outlined the restrictions on roleplaying an Evil Paladin (which were a good deal more stringent than the guidelines of being merely Lawful Evil that you posted)? How about when I mentioned how an Evil Paladin would Fall if he performed any significant action solely out of the goodness of his heart? It's quite true that Virtue has nowhere near the complexity required to keep track of how different Virtue events would affect Paladins of different alignments (at least, not yet), but if this were a PnP game with a human DM, an Evil Paladin would be just as difficult to roleplay as any Good one.
Yes. Evil people CAN still be just as legal, aboveboard, and honorable as Good ones. Yes they can. The difference is in their motivations for doing so.

Six you miss the spirit of lawful evil, the spirit of lawful evil is to follow the letter of the law, not the spirit. So your code is easy to get around.
Did you miss the part where I mentioned how your code doesn't quite work right? where I pointed some holes in it.
Paladins gain there divine power through there personal sacrifice. Evil doesn't make personal sacrifices, they sacrifice others.
The basic foruma for a code for evil paladins has some very basic flaws.
1# A code geared towards selfishness and not helping others is by default easier to follow. (an easy reason for helping others with out reward is so people think your a hero so you can exploit them later)
2# Part of being Lawful Evil is following the letter of the law, not the spirit. (its also the fun part) A code that forces them to follow the spirit does fit with being evil at all.
3# its easy to come up with selfish motiviation. If nothing else its to fool people into thinking your good. A smart evil rule to follow is. Spread your evil away from home. Help out at home so the heroes will have to go through the "devoted" peasents to get to you.
In baldur's gate thats what I do with my evil characters, get a high rep so people think he's all great, But have a low virtue because I'm NOT.



Yes. Evil people CAN still be just as legal, aboveboard, and honorable as Good ones. Yes they can. The difference is in their motivations for doing so.
[qoute]
The problem with the villains who are legal and above the board and honorable. IS they tend not to be slain by heroes but to be converted to the side of good.

Also I never agreed with the race class restrictions.
My first 3.0 character was a lawful good elven necromancer, just to see howmany 2nd edition rules I could break at once.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2005, 10:05:52 AM by Lord Kain »
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2005, 10:15:50 AM »
You asked why only humans can be paladins and I answered, don't actually agree with race class restriction.

Distilling all of that to find the germ of what I think you said, you seem to be objecting to the idea of an Evil Paladin doing whatever the heck he wants to, and never Falling. Which makes me wonder: Did you miss the part where I outlined the restrictions on roleplaying an Evil Paladin (which were a good deal more stringent than the guidelines of being merely Lawful Evil that you posted)? How about when I mentioned how an Evil Paladin would Fall if he performed any significant action solely out of the goodness of his heart? It's quite true that Virtue has nowhere near the complexity required to keep track of how different Virtue events would affect Paladins of different alignments (at least, not yet), but if this were a PnP game with a human DM, an Evil Paladin would be just as difficult to roleplay as any Good one.
Yes. Evil people CAN still be just as legal, aboveboard, and honorable as Good ones. Yes they can. The difference is in their motivations for doing so.

Six you miss the spirit of lawful evil, the spirit of lawful evil is to follow the letter of the law, not the spirit. So your code is easy to get around.
Did you miss the part where I mentioned how your code doesn't quite work right? where I pointed some holes in it.
Paladins gain there divine power through there personal sacrifice. Evil doesn't make personal sacrifices, they sacrifice others.
The basic foruma for a code for evil paladins has some very basic flaws.
1# A code geared towards selfishness and not helping others is by default easier to follow. (an easy reason for helping others with out reward is so people think your a hero so you can exploit them later)
2# Part of being Lawful Evil is following the letter of the law, not the spirit. (its also the fun part) A code that forces them to follow the spirit does fit with being evil at all.
3# its easy to come up with selfish motiviation. If nothing else its to fool people into thinking your good. A smart evil rule to follow is. Spread your evil away from home. Help out at home so the heroes will have to go through the "devoted" peasents to get to you.
In baldur's gate thats what I do with my evil characters, get a high rep so people think he's all great, But have a low virtue because I'm NOT.



Yes. Evil people CAN still be just as legal, aboveboard, and honorable as Good ones. Yes they can. The difference is in their motivations for doing so.
The problem with the villains who are legal and above the board and honorable. IS they tend not to be slain by heroes but to be converted to the side of good. Those type of characters have a to much good in them to be the evil "paladin"

Also I never agreed with the race class restrictions.
My first 3.0 character was a lawful good elven necromancer, just to see howmany 2nd edition rules I could break at once.

The code of the paladin is there to keep them on the path of rightiousness that is the roleplaying reason.
You don't need a code to keep you on the path of evil, your own selfish nature can take care of that. The code you lay out for evil paladins doesn't make sense for a champion of evil or being lawful evil.

Bane and Bhaal are both lawful evil but they still stole and profit from it.

Devils steal things and they are lawful evil incarnate.
Quote
« Last Edit: September 19, 2005, 05:07:51 PM by Lord Kain »
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2005, 02:16:22 PM »
This discussion is still higly theoretical, again: SixOfSpades why don't you do that kit and we'll see how it works in practise?
I did, up above. Just like an existing Paladin, but everything is swapped, alignment-wise: They must be Lawful Evil, they get Detect Good and Protection from Good instead of DEvil and ProtEvil, they cast Unholy Blight instead of Holy Smite, they can use Unholy Reavers instead of Holy Avengers, and where Good Paladins will Fall if they take a Virtue penalty, Evil Paladins will Fall if they take a Virtue gain. (A gain that takes them above a Virtue of 2, that is, since otherwise they would be unable to complete many major quests. Virtue gains not intrinsic to any quests, however, simply small acts of charity like saving the slaves in Ust Natha, would be instant Falls for an Evil Paladin.)
Of course, that's only a "Generic" Evil Paladin. A Paladin of a specific Evil god would have slight differences, catering to that god's portfolio, and perhaps the Paladin would be NE instead of LE, if the god was Chaotic enough.


You asked why only humans can be paladins and I answered, don't actually agree with race class restriction.
You didn't exactly answer my question, you simply restated the rule, which we are all already familiar with. But I'm glad to see you actually disagreeing with the rulebooks on something.

Six you miss the spirit of lawful evil, the spirit of lawful evil is to follow the letter of the law, not the spirit. So your code is easy to get around.
Not if properly enforced, whether by a savvy human DM, a version of Virtue that's engineered to cater for all types of Paladins, or the player himself.

Quote
Did you miss the part where I mentioned how your code doesn't quite work right? where I pointed some holes in it.
No, I didn't miss it, I simply disregarded it because you obviously weren't listening to what I was saying, and therefore your analysis was faulty. For instance, when you said,
Quote
Problem, lawful evil doesn't follow the spirit, they only follow the wording. Following the spirit of the law is for neutral or good beings. THE really fun in playing lawful evil, is breaking your word with out actually breaking it,
that meant that you saw fit to ignore the part where I stated how an Evil Paladin "must honor and obey the rules of all Evil societies, in both letter and spirit, most importantly the laws of the sect of their own god. They may never break their word to anyone. They may intentionally mislead only creatures who are known to be of Good alignment or serve a Good god."
I am AWARE that beings who are merely Lawful Evil will twist the meaning of a law in order to wring the most benefit for themselves, or even for the sheer joy of tricking the other person into thinking that he's safe. I UNDERSTAND that ordinary Lawful Evil beings will stab you in the back if they are legally allowed to do so. But you seem strangely resistant to the idea that Evil Paladins have their own code to follow, which is on top of, in addition to, and takes precedence over, all rules of roleplaying a standard Lawful Evil creature. Don't tell me that Lawful Evil beings like Devils and Djinni will twist my words against me, or steal the Tablets of Fate, or whatnot. Those beings are not Evil Paladins, and therefore there are many things that they would be willing to do, which an Evil Paladin would not.

Quote
Paladins gain there divine power through there personal sacrifice. Evil doesn't make personal sacrifices, they sacrifice others.
There you go again with the "I give up this thing, therefore I'm magically entitled to something in return" spiel. Maybe one day you'll explain it. It is likely that Paladins' divine powers are granted because they are so devoted to their deity that they intentionally show they are willing to endure suffering in their god's service--but if that's the reason, you have so far failed to mention it. And if it is the reason, there's nothing at all in there about how the Paladin must be Good--a Paladin of Loviator, flagellating himself to demonstrate his zeal, would fit the rationale perfectly.
But you know, I'm not sure that's the reason at all: Self-sacrifice is quite in the interests of gods like Ilmater, of course, but gods such as Lathander would most likely find the concept....a bit repellent, actually, and Lathander and Ilmater are both among Torm's and Tyr's closest allies. In my opinion, Lathander would be most likely to grant Paladin powers to those devotees who balance the positive aspects of being a midwife and running a gymnasium or youth center, with the negative aspects of zealously hunting down those who harm or enslave children, and Undead and all other perversions of the life cycle. If, indeed, people are elevated to Paladin status by their gods because of services rendered that are especially pleasing to that god, then certain responsibilities classic to canon Paladins (such as selflessly aiding the unfortunate) might not come into play at all for Paladins of different faiths. Instead, those Paladins might be expected to perform other services--for instance, a Paladin of Bane might cater to his god's realm of tyranny by acting as a tax collector, exacting tribute (brutally, when necessary) from all citizens and delivering that, along with his own tithe, to his lord and/or church.

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its easy to come up with selfish motiviation. If nothing else its to fool people into thinking your good.
This is very true. It's not as if people needed any more reasons to roleplay Neutral Evil. Appropriate safeguards must in place to keep Evil Paladins from pretending to be Good. (Although they would still take the Fallen Paladins quest.)

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The problem with the villains who are legal and above the board and honorable. IS they tend not to be slain by heroes but to be converted to the side of good.
More like "converted to the side of neutrality, usually because they can see which way the wind is blowing by that time, since the good guys win in most stories anyway." And even if that were true, is that any reason that they shouldn't have existed in the first place? To go back to using Darth Vader as an example, yes, in his final moments he turned a little Chaotic by killing the Emperor (even though I hear it's expected of the Sith to try to kill their masters). Yes, in his final moments he turned a little Good by not allowing the Emperor to kill Luke. Yes, it is likely that he would not have done these things if Luke had not urged him to abandon the Dark Side of the Force. But are those reasons enough to argue that Vader shouldn't have existed at all? Besides, he didn't actually turn Good; his motivation was that of family, which is actually very Neutral. And it's been a long time since I've seen it, but if I recall correctly, Vader never mentioned any intention of turning his back on the Empire; he might simply have saved Luke so that they, as Vader had offered before, could "rule this Galaxy as father and son." That's hardly a return to Good.

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2005, 04:49:06 PM »
that meant that you saw fit to ignore the part where I stated how an Evil Paladin "must honor and obey the rules of all Evil societies, in both letter and spirit, most importantly the laws of the sect of their own god. They may never break their word to anyone. They may intentionally mislead only creatures who are known to be of Good alignment or serve a Good god."

The big problem with this is that while paladins are supposed to be even more LG than other LG characters, your proposed unholy warriors would be *less* LE than other LE characters.
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2005, 05:32:32 PM »
The big problem with this is that while paladins are supposed to be even more LG than other LG characters, your proposed unholy warriors would be *less* LE than other LE characters.
Really? Damn, that's precisely what I was trying to avoid. Can you give a more precise example, and/or constructive suggestions?

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2005, 06:07:56 PM »
Nightmare makes my point, Your code interferes with being evil and selfish. The code of a paladin is ment to keep them on the path of good.

Your evil paladin code doesn't help them on the path of evil just law.
A good paladins code is ment to keep them on the path of good.


Nearly everyone on Faerun is devoted to a god of somekind. (as the fate of the faithless is hmm cruel)
We also disagree on how closly a paladin is tied to thier god. Your saying they are just as tied to the gods as clerics.
I'm saying there not.
If you reduce a paladin to a simple geshant of fighter and cleric. It becomes easy to play. Just pick a god thats easy for you to roleplay under.


Finally the paladin is goods final weapon againts evil.
Now I'm going to to a little compare of the paladin and the PrC the blackguard.


The blackguard has evil versions of many of the paladins good abilites. However a blackguard is not immune to disease or fear like a normal paladin. They can't use lay on hands, unless they are also a fallen paladin in which case there's is self only.
A blackguard can use posion with out risk of posioning themself, they can also do some bonus sneak attack damage like a rouge but no where near as good. There spellcasting is also a bit below a paladin's level.

But a blackguard has no code and can be any evil alignment.

So the evil paladin or blackguard, shouldn't a code or be restricted as a normal paladin. But they should be slightly less powerful
Now 2nd doesn't have the multiclassing or PrC of 3.0 so lets see what we can do, the anti-paladin shouldn't be quite as powerful as the Good one, because they should be free to be evil in any fashion.

A major problem for the kit in baldur's gate is coding issues trying to maintain the seperate fallen coding for the standard paladin and the evil kit. Other people who've attempted the anti-paladin made it a fighter kit, with a must be human and evil resitriction.


Class: Fighter kit Blackguard
Race: Human (for now)
Alignment: Any Evil
ADVANTAGES:
- Special Ability of Detect Good 1x/day per level
- Special Ability of Protection from Good 1x/day per level
- Can cast the 3rd-level spell "Unholy Blight" 1xday per four levels
- Can cast invisbilty 1x/day
- Can backstab for x2 damage at level 15.
- May use weapons reserved for Evil Fighters and Paladins, such as Unholy Reavers
- No penalty for losing Virtue.
DISADVANTAGES:
- Does not gain ability to Detect Evil
- Does not gain ability of Protection from Evil
- Can not turn undead or cast spells beyond the ones granted above.
- Can not lay on hands.
- May not use weapons reserved for Good Paladins, such as Holy Avengers
- Turn Undead ability can Charm Undead instead of destroying them
- Will lose status if Virtue rises above 6.


Honestly I was quite sure we were talking about the nature of paladins in D&D in general, not just in BG terms.



1] They must honor and obey the rules of all Evil societies, in both letter and spirit, most importantly the laws of the sect of their own god.

This still runs counter to being lawful evil. Lawful evil societies still only respect the letter of the law. There is no spirit of the law in a lawful evil societiy.

2] They may never break their word to anyone. They may intentionally mislead only creatures who are known to be of Good alignment or serve a Good god. Outright lies are forbidden at all times.
This is actually quite nice, It would force a player to keep being clever, (never actually giving his word or leaving a gaping loop hole in the contract)

3] They may not kill through means of stealth, trickery, traps, or poison.
Evil loves stealth, trickery, traps and poison. The champion of evil should use all of these things.

4] Must work to gain the maximum advantage (to his god, lord, or society) out of any deal, stopping short of actual cheating or intentionally hiding pertinent information from other parties. The Paladin is under no obligation to reveal such information, however.
This is a more Lawful Neutral guide line. The lawful evil villian is supposed to cheat the other parties in the deal.

5] Must fight honorably whenever possible: One-on-one duels, preferably with the opponent allowed to choose between ranged and melee combat. The Paladin is, however, encouraged to deny any request for mercy, provided he was ever in any actual danger.

The evil paladin should use any tactic they see fit. Some might be "honorible" and like the 1 on 1 duel. Especially as the dark paladin would be facing several heroes at once.

6] Must support and defend those in need, provided those in turn honestly pledge fealty to the Paladin's god, lord, or society.
You need to add or pay him a great deal.

7] May not accept anything suspected of being stolen, nor knowingly derive any benefit from any crime.
Lawful evil guys steal, lawful evil socities steal, Evil steals alot. The lawful evil villian just shouldn't get caught

8] May never intentionally wrong a friend or ally unless a full and fair warning is issued well in advance.
Define "advance"


« Last Edit: September 19, 2005, 06:22:46 PM by Lord Kain »
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2005, 09:38:14 PM »
Lord Kain pretty much answered the question for me.  The code of conduct you presented certainly makes these guys more Lawful than your typical LE character, but it's the Good/Evil axis which is the problem.  They seem almost halfway between LE and LN.
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Offline Borsook

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2005, 02:31:54 AM »
@SixOfSpades, sorry I missed your kit description before. What about healing spells? What about lay-on-hands? I think it needs more "distinguishing".
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